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   CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assault
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LadyLover
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CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assault
« on: Mar 15th, 2012, 8:04am »
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A 29-year-old woman has been arrested for allegedly
sexually assaulting a 15-year-old boy.
 
One of the boy’s parents became aware of the
incident on Facebook and notified authorities last
month, prompting a police investigation. The woman
is an acquaintance of the boy’s and his parents;
however, police are not elaborating on how they
know each other to protect the identity of the teen.
 
“Through the course of the investigation, it appears
that there are no other victims involved, and the
relationship was isolated to the victim and [the woman],”
police said in a release.
 
http://www.unionleader.com/article/20120314/NEWS03/703149947
 


 
When I was 15 years old, I would have loved to
be "sexually assaulted" by a 29-year-old who looked
like this!  Grin
 
Back in those days (mid-1970s), if my parents had
found out, they would have ended the relationship
and made sure we had no more contact with each
other, but I doubt they would have had her arrested.
 
My mother would have taken down my pants and
underpants and spanked me.  Cry
 
My father probably would have taken me aside and  
said, "Attaboy!"  Wink
 
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #1 on: Mar 15th, 2012, 3:08pm »
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...or, while your mother was spanking you he might have taken down the woman's pants and spanked her.
 
Lots of possibilities.
 
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #2 on: Mar 15th, 2012, 3:11pm »
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"Niiiiiiice..." If you don't get the South Park reference, ignore this.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #3 on: Mar 15th, 2012, 6:34pm »
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I dont believe there are too many males out there that have a problem with things such as this. It seems it is usually the mothers that complain. If a father does complain, am willing to bet he is pussy whipped. Just my opinion, have just a little bit of experience in a similar matter.   LEO C
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #4 on: Mar 15th, 2012, 7:18pm »
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I don't see how a woman can be accused of sexual assault on a  willing teenage boy by giving him sexual favors.
Of course sometimes the mother still sees the boy as her little boy, who is not so little or innocent any more. I guess it is just maternal instincts.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #5 on: Mar 15th, 2012, 8:17pm »
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on Mar 15th, 2012, 7:18pm, BobbyBare wrote:
I don't see how a woman can be accused of sexual assault on a  willing teenage boy by giving him sexual favors.
Of course sometimes the mother still sees the boy as her little boy, who is not so little or innocent any more. I guess it is just maternal instincts.

 
 
It's illegal whatever the sex if one of them is under a certain age. Feminists shrieked and screamed about equality and "gender neutral" laws so they got them.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #6 on: Mar 15th, 2012, 8:40pm »
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I think everyone is jumping to a lot of conclusions when they do not know the facts. Where in the article does it say the boy was a willing participant and that he enjoyed it.  
 
It does say "Castle is an acquaintance of the boy’s and his parents; however, police are not elaborating on how they know each other to protect the identity of the teen." Does this mean she may have been in a position of authority and responsibility over the boy and betrayed his trust?  
 
For all we know from the article she may have stripped him, tied him up and kicked him in the balls all afternoon but I bet some of you sickos out there would think that he should enjoy that anyway.
 
Do not forget that we are looking at this from the perspective of mature males with a few runs on the board, many with a misconception blurred by time of how we would have felt about things when we were 15.
 
Not all 15 year-old boys are ready for sex with anyone, let alone someone nearly old enough to be their mother. Although most of us wont admit it once we are older, if we are being honest with ourselves, in our mid teens sexual encounters with girls our own age were pretty scary, but that was alright because it was scary for the girls too.
 
I dont know any details of this case either but it may have been a fun and consensual encounter between the two of them and everyones comments may then be appropriate, but there just may be a whole lot more to it.
 
Everyone likes to have a go at the "double standard" and here we are perpetuating it.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #7 on: Mar 15th, 2012, 9:28pm »
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on Mar 15th, 2012, 8:40pm, doug444 wrote:
I think everyone is jumping to a lot of conclusions when they do not know the facts. Where in the article does it say the boy was a willing participant and that he enjoyed it.  
 
It does say "Castle is an acquaintance of the boy’s and his parents; however, police are not elaborating on how they know each other to protect the identity of the teen." Does this mean she may have been in a position of authority and responsibility over the boy and betrayed his trust?  
 
For all we know from the article she may have stripped him, tied him up and kicked him in the balls all afternoon but I bet some of you sickos out there would think that he should enjoy that anyway.
 
Do not forget that we are looking at this from the perspective of mature males with a few runs on the board, many with a misconception blurred by time of how we would have felt about things when we were 15.
 
Not all 15 year-old boys are ready for sex with anyone, let alone someone nearly old enough to be their mother. Although most of us wont admit it once we are older, if we are being honest with ourselves, in our mid teens sexual encounters with girls our own age were pretty scary, but that was alright because it was scary for the girls too.
 
I dont know any details of this case either but it may have been a fun and consensual encounter between the two of them and everyones comments may then be appropriate, but there just may be a whole lot more to it.
 
Everyone likes to have a go at the "double standard" and here we are perpetuating it.

 
Well said, doug.  But as PC says, it's illegal.  Nuff said.
 
That's why she's being prosecuted.
 
Better to appreciate it for it's humor at this point.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #8 on: Mar 15th, 2012, 9:35pm »
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PC and Doug, I tink you are jumping the gun and getting emotional by hitting out at everyone without knowing what they are saying.
We do not know what the case was exactly about, that is why I  emphasised that only IF the boy was a "willing" participant.
About gender equality, feminism and all such stuff that you are mentioning, this cannot strictly be applied in certain cases.
In a sexual relationship it is the female who is at risk, not the male because it is the female that can get pregnant. For the male, of whatever age,this wouldbe just a sexual adventure without any consequences. But not so for the female, especially if she is underage. So one cannot consider this on a basis of equality, in spite of what the mistaken anti-misandrists cry out, which you seem to be taking their view.  
We have in fact had such cases, exemplified by the classic one not long ago where a female teacher got pregnant by a teenage student, and she even went to prison for it.  
The boy also protested about this and swore that he would marry her when she came out of prison, which in fact he did.
It is no use quoting the law, because sometimes the law is blind.
The Pharisees were the champions of the law, but Jesus condemned them because they couldn't see the humanity because of the law.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #9 on: Mar 15th, 2012, 11:47pm »
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on Mar 15th, 2012, 9:35pm, BobbyBare wrote:
PC and Doug, I tink you are jumping the gun and getting emotional by hitting out at everyone without knowing what they are saying.

Bobby, mine was the least emotional post in the thread. I think you are accusing me of emotional response just because I did not agree with you.
 
on Mar 15th, 2012, 9:35pm, BobbyBare wrote:
We do not know what the case was exactly about,

 
my second-last paragraph was "I dont know any details of this case either but it may have been a fun and consensual encounter between the two of them and everyones comments may then be appropriate, but there just may be a whole lot more to it. " so whats the point in criticising me by paraphrasing my own words back to me as if they were your own?
 
on Mar 15th, 2012, 9:35pm, BobbyBare wrote:
For the male, of whatever age,this would be just a sexual adventure without any consequences.

 
There you go again. You are still automatically assuming it was a consensual arrangement. The woman is being charged with SEXUAL ASSAULT. Not sex with a minor or statutory rape. It may be different where you live but where I live this would indicate that some degree of force or coercion was implied. Maybe the laws are different where you are or where the offence occurred. but still everyone is assuming that the kid had a great time when he could have gone through a horrible ordeal and his parents may have rightfully stepped in as the kid may have not known what to do or been too scared to act.  
 
Women are capable of committing violent acts on men. Many years ago, at a bar I used to frequent, one of the regular drinkers left the bar, arm in arm, with two strange women nobody had seen before and everyone thought he had gotten lucky.
 
They found his unconscious, naked body in a nearby park the following morning with his penis and testicles smashed to a pulp. He lost one testicle and the remaining one does not work. he is permanently incapable of performing sexually.
 
My point is women can be capable of violent sexual assault. we have an article reporting a woman being charged with sexual assault of a 15 year old boy and a whole bunch of men assuming he consented to it and enjoyed it. then I get accused of getting over-emotional when I am just being the voice of reason and presenting the other side of the argument.
 
Doug
 
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #10 on: Mar 16th, 2012, 9:56am »
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on Mar 15th, 2012, 9:35pm, BobbyBare wrote:

In a sexual relationship it is the female who is at risk, not the male because it is the female that can get pregnant. For the male, of whatever age,this wouldbe just a sexual adventure without any consequences. But not so for the female, especially if she is underage.

 
Apparently you are saying that only underage girls can get pregnant?  This is simply not true.  A woman, if normal, can get pregnant at any time up to menopause.
 
I think you are confusing the distinction of age with a distinction of gender.  People often say that age limits exist for women so they won't get pregnant.  But that can't be true because post pubescent age is irrelevant.  A 24-year old woman can still get pregnant.  Age has nothing to do with pregnancy...up to, and until her change of life.
 
The age of minority was created to maintain the education of youth, up to a certain time.  It's called neoteny or juvenilization.  There's no difference due to gender.
 
The study of neoteny is an important part of zoology, as well as anthropology.  All mammles--bears, lions, horses, elephants, dogs, cats, and on and on--tend to keep their young with the mother (in some cases, the father and perhaps siblings) during a learning period.  The length of neoteny varies greatly with species.  Cats have a very breif spell while elephants have a much greater period.  
 
The homo sepian has probably the longest period of neoteny of any species.  It lasts well past puberty.  We tend to think of it as babysitter, teacher, high school and university, but it is neoteny, just like cats, monkeys and elephants.
 
In nature, the neoteny of homo sepian ends probably at chronological age 15 or 16.  But in US legal systems they have enlagred the age-of-majority period to 18-years.  Probably our puritan heritage.  In Europe and the UK legal systems it's more realistic--generally, around 16-years.
 
Oh, uh, and in all species it does not matter if it is boy, girl or indifferent.  Gender differences might amount to what is taught, but not when it is taught.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #11 on: Mar 17th, 2012, 11:59am »
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Good points, Doug 444! In the bar scene you described, I would have thought, if he didn't know the women, that they were going to rob him. However, they did far worse! I hope they were nailed by police, prosecuted, and went to jail! Remember Carolyn Warmus? She killed a man, who solicited sex, I believe on a highway. She also grossly mistreated other men, and was later executed for her crimes. I feel the same argument used to defend women who are raped applies here. Sure, the man she killed was a fool, for soliciting sex, on the borders of a highway. Yet, he didn't deserve to get killed, and his killer DID get what she deserved, in the end! Although these acts of violence by women are rare, they do occur!
I also support your "blurred by time" argument. I have said here that I would have been frightened, at age 15, of even a young woman in her 20's coming on to me. By age 17, I would no longer have been frightened, and wouldn't have reported her, to my parents, or the school, if she was a teacher. Yet, I would have politely declined her invitation, considering a lady even 5 years older than me to then be "over my head". We all like to romanticize these encounters in the present time, by putting our adult brains into our high school bodies. I realize that there are SOME boys who could handle something like this, and come away fulfilled & "educated", as to the ways of pleasing a woman. However, it is wrong to assume ALL boys would be like this. I will concede, though, that there are probably more such boys, in today's world, than existed when I was growing up.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #12 on: Mar 17th, 2012, 12:50pm »
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on Mar 17th, 2012, 11:59am, SingleDonald wrote:
Good points, Doug 444! In the bar scene you described, I would have thought, if he didn't know the women, that they were going to rob him. However, they did far worse! I hope they were nailed by police, prosecuted, and went to jail! Remember Carolyn Warmus? She killed a man, who solicited sex, I believe on a highway. She also grossly mistreated other men, and was later executed for her crimes. I feel the same argument used to defend women who are raped applies here. Sure, the man she killed was a fool, for soliciting sex, on the borders of a highway. Yet, he didn't deserve to get killed, and his killer DID get what she deserved, in the end! Although these acts of violence by women are rare, they do occur!
I also support your "blurred by time" argument. I have said here that I would have been frightened, at age 15, of even a young woman in her 20's coming on to me. By age 17, I would no longer have been frightened, and wouldn't have reported her, to my parents, or the school, if she was a teacher. Yet, I would have politely declined her invitation, considering a lady even 5 years older than me to then be "over my head". We all like to romanticize these encounters in the present time, by putting our adult brains into our high school bodies. I realize that there are SOME boys who could handle something like this, and come away fulfilled & "educated", as to the ways of pleasing a woman. However, it is wrong to assume ALL boys would be like this. I will concede, though, that there are probably more such boys, in today's world, than existed when I was growing up.

 
Yes, but remember this world also includes the likes of Richard Allen Davis, who, it came out in his sentencing hearing, was raped repeatedly by his aunt and her friend.  His sister testified and she argued that fact is why he turned out to be a depraved rapist and murderer.
 

 
Aileen Wuornos was hitchhiking in Florida when she was picked up by a lone man.  Aileen says he solicited her for sex.  Who knows, since they were both alone in the car.  As he is dead, we only have her word that he propositioned her.  I wouldn't trust her word for piss.  After all, she was facing a death sentence--which the State of Florida obligingly gave her.  In all, she robbed and killed seven men.
 
I like your post Don, just wanted to point out that small detail.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #13 on: Mar 18th, 2012, 12:52am »
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Thanks, MW! I guess I really botched up her name! I also thought the guy solicited her from the highway perimeter, or on an exit ramp. That would have been extremely difficult to do. Picking her up as a hitchhiker makes more sense.
Aileen Wournos should strike fear into the heart of any man!
Concerning Richard Allen Davis, his aunt & her adult friend apparently forced him into sex, when he was very young. I don't believe that consensual sex, with an older minor(around 17), will lead to any psychological issues, either then, or down the road. In fact, it won't necessarily lead to "issues" with some younger boys: Consider the boy who Mary Kay Laterneau seduced, at ages 12-14. He waited for her to get out of prison, and, at 21, requested the judge who oversaw her probation to remove the restriction that she be forbidden from contacting or associating with him. Of course, the judge had to grant this request to a 21-year old man, who did not feel traumatized by this woman. They soon got married, and still are, as far as I know.  
It all depends on the boy-he was mature enough to handle her, at a young age. I, for one, certainly wouldn't have been, at the tender ages of 12-15!
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #14 on: Mar 18th, 2012, 6:36am »
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on Mar 17th, 2012, 11:59am, SingleDonald wrote:
Good points, Doug 444! In the bar scene you described, I would have thought, if he didn't know the women, that they were going to rob him. However, they did far worse! I hope they were nailed by police, prosecuted, and went to jail!....

 
As far as I am aware, Donald, the perpetrators were never caught. This was 1982, the pre-video surveillance era. I still vividly remember to this day the two girls entering the bar. Everyone's heads turned! Good looking girls, dressed to the nines, makeup was overdone, hairstyles were outrageous.
 
Thinking back, not long after the event, I formed the opinion that they were dressed and made up to disguise their appearance. Their dress was so outlandish you would have been lucky to have recognised them if they were your sister. there are so many ways women can change their appearance , hairstyle, makeup, even their height using heels. sometimes I wonder if there are more men than women in prison only because its harder to catch women.
 
There were many theories expounded by locals at the time such as random victim or the possibility he was deliberately targetted for revenge as a result of a previous relationship, he did have a bit of a reputation.
 
Anyway as far as I know they got away with it.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #15 on: Mar 18th, 2012, 12:54pm »
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on Mar 18th, 2012, 12:52am, SingleDonald wrote:
Thanks, MW! I guess I really botched up her name! I also thought the guy solicited her from the highway perimeter, or on an exit ramp. That would have been extremely difficult to do. Picking her up as a hitchhiker makes more sense.
Aileen Wournos should strike fear into the heart of any man!

 
I don't think it's really your fault.  Aileen Wournos was the subject of a famous film, starting Charlize Theron...Monster.  The writers tried to twist the story line into a feminist mold, making her the victim that fought back when she was assaulted.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  She was a horrid, cold blooded killer without anybody's help.  She gained a following of sorts with her victim posturing, but that was just her fabricating her defense.
 
on Mar 18th, 2012, 12:52am, SingleDonald wrote:
Concerning Richard Allen Davis, his aunt & her adult friend apparently forced him into sex, when he was very young. I don't believe that consensual sex, with an older minor(around 17), will lead to any psychological issues, either then, or down the road.

 
Fair point.  I don't think that merely being introduced to sex at a young age necessarily twists anyone's mind.  What does twist minds is the context in which it occurs.  Like the stories in the YMCA thread about mothers whipping boys for getting erections...that's the type of thing that twists minds.  Some day I'd like to see some psychologist write the book, The Making of a Rapist Murderer.  I think those stories would fit nicely.
 
BTW, I don't think the victimizing of Richard Allen Davis was so innocent.  Apparently it was in the context of an highly abusive situation.  But my point isn't to defend him; it is merely to point out the recipe for making the criminals we read about daily in the papers, lies in the abusive context.
 
on Mar 18th, 2012, 12:52am, SingleDonald wrote:
In fact, it won't necessarily lead to "issues" with some younger boys: Consider the boy who Mary Kay Laterneau seduced, at ages 12-14. He waited for her to get out of prison, and, at 21, requested the judge who oversaw her probation to remove the restriction that she be forbidden from contacting or associating with him. Of course, the judge had to grant this request to a 21-year old man, who did not feel traumatized by this woman. They soon got married, and still are, as far as I know.  
It all depends on the boy-he was mature enough to handle her, at a young age. I, for one, certainly wouldn't have been, at the tender ages of 12-15!

 
Yes, Mary Kay Letourneau and Vili Faulaau present a strange situation.  She actually had two children with him (in addition to the four she already had from Steve Letourneau), and one was conceived when she was paroled and hooked up with Vili again (despite terms of release prohibiting contact).  
 
However, because of the permanent injunction prohibiting her contact with any minor, she can't even raise her own kids.  And because Vili lives with her, he can't raise his own children...though, unlike Mary Kay, nothing stops him from seeing them.  They are being raised by his mother.
 
So far as I  know they are still married.  But there is the suggestion out there that they are only staying together because of all of the money they are making off their story (films, books, etc.).  If they separated, it would ruin the script.
 
Check out the story of Debora La Fave.  See, we never know what harm comes to victims of these encounters.  Their families don't publicize it...for good reason.  Unlike Penn State, where Jerry Sandusky is promised to spend some real time in the house with the blue roof, these women get a tap on the wrist and a pat on the ass.  What's the percentage in vigorously pursuing that?  
 
There's rarely an evidentiary hearing, where we get to hear all of the facts, including the damage it does.  For obvious reasons, the defense attorneys block the release of the story.  And the real victim is mostly portrayed as stupid and gullible.  Why subject yourself to all the ridicule if justice is not going to be distributed equitably anyway.  So we don't get to hear the follow-up story.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #16 on: Mar 18th, 2012, 6:25pm »
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Thanks, MW! I spelled her name wrong; it's Letourneau! I knew the other facts, concerning the 2 babies. I did not know that she is prohibited from raising, or even seeing her own kids. I believe that is a bit harsh!
Concerning Debora LaFave, I recall someone on this board saying that her 14 year old "victim" will likely never again experience someone so "hot"! I believe he is 18 or 19 now, and I wish he could be interviewed about the encounter. He would tell if he has any regrets, or if he still fondly recalls the trysts, and considers them to be learning experiences.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #17 on: Mar 18th, 2012, 9:47pm »
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on Mar 18th, 2012, 6:25pm, SingleDonald wrote:
Thanks, MW! I spelled her name wrong; it's Letourneau! I knew the other facts, concerning the 2 babies. I did not know that she is prohibited from raising, or even seeing her own kids. I believe that is a bit harsh!

 
Yes, that is the standard prohibition for all those convicted of a sex offense, particularly those who are convicted of statutory rape.  This is pretty much for all states...I don't know of an exception.  So, it's pretty much the standard that if a person gets convicted, he is barred from seeing his children until they are of age..
 
on Mar 18th, 2012, 6:25pm, SingleDonald wrote:
Concerning Debora LaFave, I recall someone on this board saying that her 14 year old "victim" will likely never again experience someone so "hot"! I believe he is 18 or 19 now, and I wish he could be interviewed about the encounter. He would tell if he has any regrets, or if he still fondly recalls the trysts, and considers them to be learning experiences.

 
Why interview him, he is not a psychologist?  He'd probably tell you, 'I love fucking.'  That's what I'd expect from Richard Allen Davis, too.  He probably loved fucking his victim.  That's why he did it.  That doesn't make it ok.
 
The issue isn't if the victim loves to fuck.  It is, if his mind has become warped in some way that is dangerous to other members of the community.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #18 on: Mar 18th, 2012, 10:17pm »
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doug444,
Now that I know what happened, I too would suspect that they were targeting him for treating one of their friends badly, in a "relationship". I doubt they were randomly selecting him, but then again, Aileen Wournos randomly selected her male victims. We just don't know, for sure. Some might say they were lesbians, but, unless they were friends with one of his abused girlfriends, I doubt it. Lesbians generally don't hate men, they just don't have any romantic feelings for them.
Concerning surveillance cameras, I recall a new McDonald's opening up, in the mid '70's. I suspected their cameras were fake-merely "window dressing" , to fool potentially dangerous customers. Today's cameras, we all know, are very real!
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #19 on: Mar 19th, 2012, 3:37am »
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on Mar 18th, 2012, 10:17pm, SingleDonald wrote:
...but, unless they were friends with one of his abused girlfriends...

 
Who said anything about abused girlfriends? As far as I know that was not his thing. It was more a case of having too many girlfriends at the same time.
 
The general consensus at the time favoured it being a random attack because the victim confirmed that at no time during the attack did they mention doing it on behalf of anyone else, which you would expect in a revenge attack. what would be the point in inflicting all that harm without letting him know on whose behalf?
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #20 on: Mar 19th, 2012, 8:17am »
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 In reference to the original post, I am one of those guys who believes that a male can not be raped. Just my view, have no experience but believe it is both mentally and physically impossible. Granted, anyone can be sexually abused, molested, humiliated embarrassed and it is an event that can mar them for the rest of their lives. To try to force a male to maintain an erection, I dont think that is possible.  
  A female can manually or visually stimulate a male to excitement but if he is in pain, embarrassed, fearful, he is not going to be able maintain an erection to accomplish intercourse. He has to be in a mood to cooperate. As a youngster, 11-12, did have older girls visually stimulate me so they could giggle at my erection but looking back do not believe that I could have maintained any excitement had I actually realized what they were doing. Physical contact might have worked to a point if done right but that was actually something I never experienced until I was capable to mentally understand just what was going on and had a cooperative or comfortable, safe attitude. Similar to being examined in a doctors office.  
  I can comment from experience of being a witness, that from the one case I have seen, there is nothing detrimental for a young man to be guided by a cooperative female. He has to be ready and the situation handled correctly. Am sure there are many out there who disagree, I can only make judgements from one isolated situation which worked out quite well. I would think that most who do have a negative opinion have never really been remotely involved and draw their opinions from naturally biased news stories. I can understand the bias as those accused are in theory breaking the law, in this country anyway. I am not talking about being molested or humiliated but a cooperative situation.   LEO C
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #21 on: Mar 19th, 2012, 8:28am »
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Lately, many of the conversations on this forum have turned into abusive name-calling instead of intellectual debates. This is a great discussion - VSFW at its best - and exactly what I hope for when I post one of these news items.
 
Doug, you are absolutely correct when you wrote, "The woman is being charged with SEXUAL ASSAULT. Not sex with a minor or statutory rape." That is an important point that I missed when I first commented on the article. The phrase "sexual assault" sounds like she forced sex on him and/or abused him sexually. According to the following update, however, sexual assault is a lesser charge than the other two:
 
Nashua Telegraph, March 15
 
Police were told about the alleged assaults on Feb.
28 after the 15-year-old boy’s parents discovered
correspondence between Castle and their son on
the boy’s Facebook account, police said.
 
Castle knows the alleged victim and his parents,
but their relationship is not being released to
protect the boy’s identity, police said.
 
Merrimack Police Lt. Paul Trepaney said Castle and
the boy are acquaintances and she was not in a
position of authority over the boy. “It was not a
student-teacher or any type of relationship like
that,” he said.
 
The misdemeanor charges mean police allege there
was inappropriate touching and not sexual
intercourse. The felony prohibited use of computer
services charge means police allege there was
computer conversations between the two that
were sexual in nature, Trepaney said.
 
http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/news/953500-196/police-merrimack-woman-se xually-assaulted-15-year-old-boy.html
 
The phrase "illegal touching", and the fact that they were talking about the incident(s) on Facebook, implies a consensual (if that word can be used with a minor) encounter. Her actions probably would have led to statutory rape if they had not been caught so soon in their relationship.
 
That being said, making light of this situation may not be politically correct; however, this is a "fetish" forum, not a legal debate, and nothing we say here has any bearing on the case. Our sophomoric joking about a boy learning about sex from an older woman is simply wishful - probably flawed - reminiscing and does not necessarily reflect our actual opinion of the facts of this case or what this woman's punishment should be.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #22 on: Mar 19th, 2012, 9:42am »
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Stories such as this, we are always limited to what the news media print. I believe they try to sensationalize the situation. As pointed out, the woman is being charged with somekind of assault, relying on computer exchanges as evidence although the boy probably corroborated some kind of story. Would not surprise me in the least if he was not lead or or coached into some kind of statements just to get the investigators and his mother off his case.  
  To be fair, the people charged with the investigation probably had no choice but to come up with some kind of charges. Am sure they would just as soon have ignored the whole thing. I am pretty certain that no harm came to the young man although there can possibly be rare cases where some kind of harm will surface later. Probably happens a lot more than any of us realize.  If it was a male on male thing, that would be a different thing entirely.   LEO C
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #23 on: Mar 19th, 2012, 2:46pm »
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Hi Leo,
You have made some great points in the past two posts, in my opinion.  You already know well my views on all juvenile laws and the minority status in general: they shouldn't exist in either criminal law or civil law.  If someone kills or robs another and he or she is 10-years old, he or she should be tried in the same way as a 50-year old.  None of this should he be tried as an adult?  
 
Likewise, minority status should be eliminated when it comes to judging who has sex with whom.  There should be no such thing as statutory rape.  I want to emphasize that I am not the least bit interested in having sex with a 10-year old girl.  My reason is that these laws are a mask for differences in gender treatment--ie, they are sexism.  Ask yourself, What are they trying to prevent?  They are trying to suppress the maturation of young females.  It stems back to a day when females were considered property...to be traded for something of value, be it land, money or position.  Parents want to be in a position to barter their daughter's virginity to the best match out there.  It's bullshit--the young woman should be able to decide for herself what will make her happy.
 
Why isn't it bilateral--why doesn't it work both ways?  Who gives a shit about a son's virginity?  Boys are supposed to be free agents, not property.
 
Now I'm going to voice another potentially unpopular opinion.  All laws that weave sexuality into their fabric should be eliminated.  Where did the whole concept of rape come from--hey, it's an assault...why not leave it at that?  If one punches you in the ear or decks you with a left uppercut, it's some sort of assault or battery, right?  But if one goes anywhere near the genitals, they've got these special crimes called rape and sexual abuse.  Why is that?  It's because we don't want anyone damaging or stealing our property--namely, the virginity of our daughters!
 
Why do I care about if it's rape or assault?  Because with assault you can take into consideration many more elements, including the subjective attitudes of the victim.  With rape or sexual assault, it's any kind intimate touching or penetration and Slam!, thats it.  Again, I see adding the sexual element to assault as something to merely assuage the grief of the property owners, the female's parents, husband or siblings.  Assault would work perfectly well in the case of rape, were we not treating women like chattel.
 
But these are just my opinions, and they are not very popular, I admit.  The homo sapien is not yet ready to give women full membership in the club.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #24 on: Mar 19th, 2012, 4:46pm »
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on Mar 15th, 2012, 8:04am, LadyLover wrote:
A 29-year-old woman has been arrested for allegedly
sexually assaulting a 15-year-old boy.
 
My father probably would have taken me aside and  
said, "Attaboy!"  Wink
 

 
Yeah one of the double standards in society, but that is changing. In the last decade or so we've heard about many, many incidents of female teachers being arrested for banging an underage male student. Previous to that it was unheard of...  You can't believe it never happened and this is all of a sudden a new phenomena that's just sprung up out of nowhere. Basically no one cared.... If Jerry Sandusky were a woman, and this whole Penn State scandal came up 15 years ago there would be no news story or any prosecution. No one would care, and while it might be considered "sleazy behavior",  there wouldn't be any legal action taken.... Pretty Amazing how something can go from "the most henious crime of the decade" to "tolerated behavior" simply by changing the perpatrator's sex.
 
 
Basically males never had the same legal rights or protections as females do when it comes to being assaulted or sexually abused. That does seem to be changing now, and we seem to be getting more equality under the law.
 
 
Also did you know that legally there was no such thing as rape against a male until about 6 months ago? They just redefined the legal definition of rape to include males. Previous to that there was "no such thing".
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #25 on: Mar 19th, 2012, 4:49pm »
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The basis for the statutory rape category is, so I presume, that it's possible to engage in consensual sexual activities with a person who doesn't understand the full consequences of the act itself, because he or she is immature and/or inexperienced. If you're a barkeep, you may serve a shot of bourbon to a 15 year old kid, and he may encourage you to do so very much, but it's still illegal. The fact that he wants you to do it doesn't alter anything. The reason it's illegal is that he is, per definition, not mature enough to make a qualified decision. So his decision (to buy a shot of bourbon) is per necessity not qualified. And thus the act is illegal. There may be kids who can handle their booze, but most can't – just like most ten year olds can't drive very well. There are no doubt twelve year old kids whose views and judgments are much more enlightened and well balanced than your average 50 year old wife beatin', beer guzzlin', patriotic sonofabitch – but there's still a reason why the latter is allowed to vote, and the former is not. It's widely recognized that human beings, in general, mature gradually, along a more or less predictable curve. The age of consent (or the minimum drinking/driving/voting age) may certainly be a matter of debate, but that there IS such a concept (legally, not least) is nothing but common sense.  
 
To disregard age/maturity in terms of the law is insane, in my opinion. If you insist on putting a ten year old on death row, you may as well allow a four year old to drive.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #26 on: Mar 19th, 2012, 4:53pm »
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on Mar 19th, 2012, 4:49pm, lazarus wrote:
The basis for the statutory rape category is, so I presume, that it's possible to engage in consensual sexual activities with a person who doesn't understand the full consequences of the act itself, because he or she is immature and/or inexperienced.

 
Yeah I agree, it's partially to protect kids because they are unsophisticated and easily manipulated..... Of course, so are some adults but eventually you gotta turn people loose and say "time to take care of yourself"
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #27 on: Mar 20th, 2012, 6:10am »
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on Mar 19th, 2012, 8:17am, leo_c wrote:
 In reference to the original post, I am one of those guys who believes that a male can not be raped. Just my view, have no experience but believe it is both mentally and physically impossible. Granted, anyone can be sexually abused, molested, humiliated embarrassed and it is an event that can mar them for the rest of their lives. To try to force a male to maintain an erection, I dont think that is possible.  

 
Who needs an erection to get raped? Leo, Would you like to be the one to stand up in front of several decades of church alter boys and explain to them that when the paedophile priests had their cocks in their arses and mouths that they were not being raped? What about homosexual rape in prisons or just in society in general?
 
Take it a step further, what about females anally raping men? I remember a case a few years back where a stripper at a bucks party anally inserted a strapon into the best man when he was drunk and without his consent. the case was dismissed but what would have happened if it was a male stripper  sticking even a dildo up a bridesmaid's arse at the does party without her consent, drunk or sober?
 
 
 
 
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #28 on: Mar 20th, 2012, 8:01am »
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 DOUG, I was refering to straight sex between consenting male/ female. What you bring up, I would consider molestation and various perversions. Would include oral sex between male/ female as normal.  regards  LEO C
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #29 on: Mar 20th, 2012, 5:27pm »
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I understood what leo_c meant, and agree that, if a woman wanted normal sex with me, I couldn't possibly get an erection, with a gun being pointed at myself!!
Concerning abnormal sex, be it homosexual rape, or women using a dildo on a man, I find those things extremely horrific & perverted! I can't believe that the stripper's case was dismissed! There is NO WAY a straight man would consent to a girl doing that to him, ESPECIALLY when he was drunk!!
If women want normal sex from men, their greatest ploy is, of course, seduction!
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #30 on: Mar 20th, 2012, 10:10pm »
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on Mar 19th, 2012, 4:49pm, lazarus wrote:
The basis for the statutory rape category is, so I presume, that it's possible to engage in consensual sexual activities with a person who doesn't understand the full consequences of the act itself, because he or she is immature and/or inexperienced. If you're a barkeep, you may serve a shot of bourbon to a 15 year old kid, and he may encourage you to do so very much, but it's still illegal. The fact that he wants you to do it doesn't alter anything. The reason it's illegal is that he is, per definition, not mature enough to make a qualified decision. So his decision (to buy a shot of bourbon) is per necessity not qualified. And thus the act is illegal. There may be kids who can handle their booze, but most can't – just like most ten year olds can't drive very well. There are no doubt twelve year old kids whose views and judgments are much more enlightened and well balanced than your average 50 year old wife beatin', beer guzzlin', patriotic sonofabitch – but there's still a reason why the latter is allowed to vote, and the former is not. It's widely recognized that human beings, in general, mature gradually, along a more or less predictable curve. The age of consent (or the minimum drinking/driving/voting age) may certainly be a matter of debate, but that there IS such a concept (legally, not least) is nothing but common sense.  
 
To disregard age/maturity in terms of the law is insane, in my opinion. If you insist on putting a ten year old on death row, you may as well allow a four year old to drive.

 
See, that is a faith argument that you yourself refute.  You say: "There are no doubt twelve year old kids whose views and judgments are much more enlightened and well balanced than your average 50 year old wife beatin', beer guzzlin', patriotic sonofabitch..."  And it does no good to go to the Illegality of it...I know it's illegal.  That's what I'm questioning.
 
It's a faith argument because you can't convince me that once a person goes through puberty s/he can't be as mature as an 18-year old.  It's the way your are raised, not the age you attain.
 
Again, I know very well why we retard the sexual maturation of the females in society.  Instinctively, we want to preserve our property rights.  Women are chattel, and we don't want anyone messing with them until we say so.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #31 on: Mar 21st, 2012, 12:10am »
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MW,  
Despite your legal background, I must disagree with you. Kids 12, 13, 14, 15, and even 16, for the most part, are ill equipped, emotionally, to handle sex with an adult. I make that exception, which was trumpeted by Geraldo Rivera, that SOME boys can handle it, but I certainly wasn't one of them! That "chattel/property" argument is feminist rhetoric. Everything, to them, is due to the "evils" of "Patriarchcal Society".  We men are the "enemy"! To give the feminists credit, they DO support near age boys having sex with underage girls, with no culpability, on part of the boys. That philosophy is reflected in modified statutory rape laws; New York's was changed in 1968. Seventeen was the new age of consent, instead of 18. Also, there had to be a 5-year age difference, between the parties, for a charge of statutory rape to go to the older partner. Therefore, a 21 year old could be charged, but not a 20 year old, if he slept with a 16 year old girl. I like New York's law, and wish the rest of the country would follow suit-some states already have.
As more women are being arrested for having sex with underage boys, at least the laws are being enforced equally. I always say that penalties should be reflected on the impact the tryst/s had on the younger partner. The fact that women are generally handed more lenient sentences than are men who got together with underage girls is a sign to me that the courts are following "my guidelines"!
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #32 on: Mar 21st, 2012, 10:14am »
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Statutory rape laws are an attempt to allow children to be children and not have sexual relationships before they are ready for them. Without statutory rape and sexual assault laws, our schoolyards would be swarming with pedophile sharks hunting for fresh meat.
 
When I was about twenty-seven years old - during the 1980s - if I was so inclined, I could have easily started an inappropriate relationship with my precocious thirteen-year-old step-niece (my ex-sister-in-law's daughter from a previous marriage).
 
Lisa (not her real name), who was petite with long blonde hair, was  just starting to develop a woman's figure.  I considered her to be a child, until one day when I was "alone" with her - my parents were in another room, and another niece had gone to the bathroom - Lisa snuggled up beside me on the couch, giggled, and whispered coyly, "You have a penis." She emphasized the word "penis".
 
I was stunned! This was back in the days when words like "penis" and even "pregnant" could not be spoken on TV unless on a public television documentary. To hear those words come out of the mouth of a young girl was shocking; frightening, too, because someone overhearing might have accused me of inappropriate behavior. During the 80s, the law usually leaped to the conclusion that the man had initiated such a conversation.  
 
I scolded her by saying tautly, "Yes, but that's not nice to talk about," or something like that. I don't know if I handled it correctly, but I was not prepared for that type of conversation!
 
I believe she was simply young and curious about sex (although I cannot rule out that my bitch of a sister-in-law put her up to it). Maybe Lisa was hoping a trusted older man (I was good-looking, too) would take her under his wing and show her the mysteries of male-female relationships. If I had been a pedophile or simply tempted to "teach" her about sex, I might have said, "That's right, Lisa! Do you want to go upstairs and see my penis?" It could have developed into a relationship that allowed me to fuck her to my hearts content and then throw her away when I was done. She would no longer have been a virgin and perhaps even pregnant before she understood the complexities of sexual relationships. It could have lead to suicide.
 
The subject is more complicated if the relationship is between a "consenting" boy and an adult woman. He would lose his "virginity" and might end up as a father. He could also become more sexually aggressive towards girls his own age if he assumed all women were as willing as his adult girlfriend.
 
It can be ridiculously easy to gain the trust of a sexually-inquisitive child and con them into a relationship they are not ready to handle.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #33 on: Mar 21st, 2012, 3:59pm »
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on Mar 21st, 2012, 12:10am, SingleDonald wrote:
MW,  
Despite your legal background, I must disagree with you. Kids 12, 13, 14, 15, and even 16, for the most part, are ill equipped, emotionally, to handle sex with an adult. I make that exception, which was trumpeted by Geraldo Rivera, that SOME boys can handle it, but I certainly wasn't one of them! That "chattel/property" argument is feminist rhetoric. Everything, to them, is due to the "evils" of "Patriarchcal Society".  We men are the "enemy"! To give the feminists credit, they DO support near age boys having sex with underage girls, with no culpability, on part of the boys. That philosophy is reflected in modified statutory rape laws; New York's was changed in 1968. Seventeen was the new age of consent, instead of 18. Also, there had to be a 5-year age difference, between the parties, for a charge of statutory rape to go to the older partner. Therefore, a 21 year old could be charged, but not a 20 year old, if he slept with a 16 year old girl. I like New York's law, and wish the rest of the country would follow suit-some states already have.

 
Hi Don, me too, I like NY's law as far as it goes.  
 
Well, I said this would be one of my more unpopular essays.  
 
Oh...the fact that I have legal training has very little to do with my opinion as to what should be the law.  My training only goes to what to do when something is the law.  This is more like a complete value question.
 
What I find lacking in all of these answers is any empirical proof that an 18-year old will be more responsible with the sex act than a 12- or 13-year old.  It seems that all the answers start with assumptions--the very assumptions that I question.  
 
Neoteny--the all-important learning period that is studied in zoology and anthropology--of the human being is pretty much complete at the close of puberty.  The additional 5-years are more or less coterminous with high school and the start of university; if you want to pass laws that individuals must complete high school and two years of university, then do so.  That would be direct, at least.  
 
But age limits, I believe, are only coterminous with with a period when women are put on the selling block and men or boys are taught a skill.  Economics and funneling.
 
I don't know how many women have said to me, 'My only job in college was to find a suitable husband.'  And sure enough, at that age we find cotillion balls and young debautants, with "coming out" parties.  Coming out from what?  What do you think?  Those are markets where the women are being inspected, detected...like so much horsemeat.
 
I can sure see the similarity of my thesis to feminist issues.  But those are not my sentiments and I have a lot of disagreement with feminism.  My views come from an anthropologist viewpoint.  Structural anthropologists tend to study human society in terms of what functions are being served.  They break the progress of human life into modalities, like infant, toddler, pre-teen, puberty and so on.  And where I keep stumbling is 'what is that last 5-years for?'  
 
At least 500 years ago they were open and honest about it.  Henry VIII married his youngest sister, Mary, to Louis XII, 30-years her senior.  She didn't like it as she had her own lover back in England, Charles Brandon, 1st Duke of Suffolk. But Henry said tough.  She was chattel.  Ole Luke died within a year and she went back and married Brandon, and eventually had 4 children by him.  Yet, she had to endure that year, fucking a toothless old man at the whim of the market Henry sold her on.  This is the way it was done at all levels of society back then.  
 
The way I view those 5-years of age limits today is as a vestige of that past.  It is a time to put the daughter on the market.  And the age laws are just a cage where she can be kept from those wolves out there until she can be married according to mom and dad's wishes.
 
on Mar 21st, 2012, 12:10am, SingleDonald wrote:
As more women are being arrested for having sex with underage boys, at least the laws are being enforced equally. I always say that penalties should be reflected on the impact the tryst/s had on the younger partner. The fact that women are generally handed more lenient sentences than are men who got together with underage girls is a sign to me that the courts are following "my guidelines"!

 
Now, for that I can at least put on my lawyer hat.  There is no room for inequality in any corner of Anglo-American jurisprudence.  It's one of the central tenets of modern Western law.  Our own US history, as well as the UK, is a march of equality--admittedly met with resistence from the aforementioned beer-guzzling 50-year olds--into all reaches of society.  But this is off-topic.
 
I view it as progress that women are being held to account for their actions in this regard.  But I don't know how it's going to be measured.  You measure it as the "impact" on the perceived victim, but who is the victim and how does that get measured?  You say the victim is inevitably the younger, but I'm not so sure.  If a mature 16 or 17-year old gets a 23-year old woman drunk and beds her, who is the victim?  If both were over the age limit, no question that the male would be prosecuted for date rape.  I say the teenager did the rape, others will say the woman.  You say tomato, I say tomah-to.  Cheesy
 
Hmmm...  Interesting questions.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #34 on: Mar 21st, 2012, 5:03pm »
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on Mar 15th, 2012, 7:18pm, BobbyBare wrote:
I don't see how a woman can be accused of sexual assault on a  willing teenage boy by giving him sexual favors.
Of course sometimes the mother still sees the boy as her little boy, who is not so little or innocent any more. I guess it is just maternal instincts.

 
How many willing under age girls have sex with older men than claim rape? I think it needs to be the same for both genders if the law is to mean anything at all.  
 
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #35 on: Mar 23rd, 2012, 12:03pm »
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 Might be a bit off topic, but will bring up again a situation I was in many years ago. Has to do with a woman being competent and some tough decisions.  
  Was a single young man. Woman in the neighborhood, perhaps 20 yrs, would often stop and visit as she walked down the road. We called her SHORTY, Slim, long black hair and legs that went on forever. WOW.  Shorty had desires and curiositys like anyone else but when you started talking to her you could tell that in some ways she had the innocent mind of a child. This gave you mixed emotions. Was she a competent female or do you give into protective feelings that you get for people like this? I must point out that she was not anywhere close where you would have her institutionalized, just a bit slow.  
  I can tell you it was a tough call. I did not want to take advantage of her but at the same time, a stiff dick has no conscience. If in other post I said that I did not have sex with her, I lied, trying to make myself look good. There were a few occasions where I did give into both hers and my desires and did not know how to feel afterwards. I always had a concern for her but you can only do so much. In the end, before I was discharged, she met and married a young recruit and I lost touch with her. Looking back, I think she had the potential of being an excellent wife and mother. Innocent, simple and not demanding.  
  When I came back from a short stay in FRANCE, I brought her some perfume and small things. Sure made her happy, dont think anyone else ever brought her anything. Just reminiscing!    LEO C
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #36 on: Mar 23rd, 2012, 2:22pm »
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on Mar 23rd, 2012, 12:03pm, leo_c wrote:
 Might be a bit off topic, but will bring up again a situation I was in many years ago. Has to do with a woman being competent and some tough decisions.  
  Was a single young man. Woman in the neighborhood, perhaps 20 yrs, would often stop and visit as she walked down the road. We called her SHORTY, Slim, long black hair and legs that went on forever. WOW.  Shorty had desires and curiositys like anyone else but when you started talking to her you could tell that in some ways she had the innocent mind of a child. This gave you mixed emotions. Was she a competent female or do you give into protective feelings that you get for people like this? I must point out that she was not anywhere close where you would have her institutionalized, just a bit slow.  
  I can tell you it was a tough call. I did not want to take advantage of her but at the same time, a stiff dick has no conscience. If in other post I said that I did not have sex with her, I lied, trying to make myself look good. There were a few occasions where I did give into both hers and my desires and did not know how to feel afterwards. I always had a concern for her but you can only do so much. In the end, before I was discharged, she met and married a young recruit and I lost touch with her. Looking back, I think she had the potential of being an excellent wife and mother. Innocent, simple and not demanding.  
  When I came back from a short stay in FRANCE, I brought her some perfume and small things. Sure made her happy, dont think anyone else ever brought her anything. Just reminiscing!    LEO C  

 
Hey Leo,
Very cute story.  And touching.  I'm glad you were able to bring some real joy into her life.
 
It does point to a dilemma.  How do you deal with the mentally deficient in matters of relationships and affairs?  I'm assuming someone over the age of majority.
 
If they are placed into a conservatorship, then they revert to the status of a juvenile.  If not, they are adults and can only be treated as such.  They may not be ready for adulthood, and we have no legal status for that.  That's yet another thing wrong with the system.
MW
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #37 on: Mar 23rd, 2012, 8:19pm »
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MW,
I have no experience with what you described, nor would I want it! However, a married friend  has had a somewhat slow girlfriend (among others) for years. I brought her mental state up to him early on, and Paul told me that she had graduated college, and worked in a bank. So, I guess what you said is correct. This girl is not in a conservatorship, and thus can be treated as an adult, in matters of employment & sex.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #38 on: Mar 23rd, 2012, 10:53pm »
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on Mar 23rd, 2012, 8:19pm, SingleDonald wrote:
MW,
I have no experience with what you described, nor would I want it! However, a married friend  has had a somewhat slow girlfriend (among others) for years. I brought her mental state up to him early on, and Paul told me that she had graduated college, and worked in a bank. So, I guess what you said is correct. This girl is not in a conservatorship, and thus can be treated as an adult, in matters of employment & sex.

 
Hi Don,
Yes there are a lot of issues, though...asbergers, autisim, bipolar, you name it.
 
If she got through college, she may just have a learning difficulty.  Dyslexia runs in my family, yet I have two doctorates.  So it's not always a mentally deficient disorder.
MW
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #39 on: Mar 29th, 2012, 2:34pm »
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on Mar 20th, 2012, 10:10pm, MW wrote:

 
See, that is a faith argument that you yourself refute.  You say: "There are no doubt twelve year old kids whose views and judgments are much more enlightened and well balanced than your average 50 year old wife beatin', beer guzzlin', patriotic sonofabitch..."  And it does no good to go to the Illegality of it...I know it's illegal.  That's what I'm questioning.
 
It's a faith argument because you can't convince me that once a person goes through puberty s/he can't be as mature as an 18-year old.  It's the way your are raised, not the age you attain.
 
Again, I know very well why we retard the sexual maturation of the females in society.  Instinctively, we want to preserve our property rights.  Women are chattel, and we don't want anyone messing with them until we say so.

 
Not sure what you're saying here, really. Faith argument, you say? An enlightened and wise 12 year old is an exception. Most 12 year olds are not enlightened and wise. Thus 12 year olds are not allowed to vote, or drink. The one four year old who is capable of driving a car is a statistical anomaly – hence four year olds are not allowed to drive. This (the age limit) is strictly pragmatic – it doesn't mean one denies the existence of exceptions or anomalies. But you – obviously – don't write laws with these exceptions and anomalies in mind. The very concept (of laws) is necessarily based on what is perceived as common or normal. That perception may – and should – change as society progresses, but that's another discussion.  
 
How do you define “gone through puberty”, by the way? In a strictly biological sense? “Yeah, yer honor, the girl is 12 but she got pregnant, didn't she? So, she's clearly grown up...” The world has evolved a wee bit, I think, since the days when daughters were regarded as “chattel”, to use your own term.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #40 on: Mar 29th, 2012, 9:09pm »
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I think it is all a matter of culture, and the law usually reflects the current culture, whether it is right or wrong, especially regarding sexual matters and customs.
For instance up to fairly recently  in most parts of Europe  it was  considered normal for teenagge boys to be encouraged to  visit prostitutes to lntroduce them to sex, get acquainted well with the female anatomy, instead of having sex with girls their own age, or worse get them pregnant, which would have been a big disgrace in those days.
So you see this sexual relationship of a teenage boy with an older, experienced woman was considerd as esssential in serving many purposes, apart from having a safe sexual outlet for the boy  instead of him growing up sexually frustrated.
But today most consider this as outragious and even illegal, even though it was practical and made sense.
The result is that we have out of hand teenage ptegnancies, and countless sexually frustrated youths, and people in jail for lack of understanding by society. Also the rampant porno addiction due to the same reasons.
I have more to say about this, but I will do so in another post, especially regarding changing customs.
 
Btw, MW, regarding an earlier post which I didn't have time to reply to, where did I say that only teenage girls can get .pregnant? That is a ridiculous statement, if there ever was one.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #41 on: Mar 30th, 2012, 12:58am »
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on Mar 29th, 2012, 2:34pm, lazarus wrote:

 
Not sure what you're saying here, really. Faith argument, you say? An enlightened and wise 12 year old is an exception. Most 12 year olds are not enlightened and wise. Thus 12 year olds are not allowed to vote, or drink. The one four year old who is capable of driving a car is a statistical anomaly – hence four year olds are not allowed to drive. This (the age limit) is strictly pragmatic – it doesn't mean one denies the existence of exceptions or anomalies. But you – obviously – don't write laws with these exceptions and anomalies in mind. The very concept (of laws) is necessarily based on what is perceived as common or normal. That perception may – and should – change as society progresses, but that's another discussion.  

 
Hi Laz,
Well, you reify the immaturity of the 12-year-old, but why to you give so much credit to the 18-year old?  He or she are fucking like mad dogs, and have no idea what they are doing.  It's only because it's legal.
 
Yet there are 12-year olds that show more responsiblilty than that.  I remember that my first fuck was at about 13-years old.  It was a gf that I hung with for about a year.  Then my mom came to me and preached about how dangerous it was fucking these girls.  I was what?  14?  
 
It got to me and my next girlfriend I never fucked...all, because of the teachings of my mother.  Now, if that isn't proof positive that a 14-year old can be more responsible than an 18-year old, I don't know what you need.  My point is it's what you teach, not when you teach it.
 
on Mar 29th, 2012, 2:34pm, lazarus wrote:
How do you define “gone through puberty”, by the way? In a strictly biological sense? “Yeah, yer honor, the girl is 12 but she got pregnant, didn't she? So, she's clearly grown up...” The world has evolved a wee bit, I think, since the days when daughters were regarded as “chattel”, to use your own term.

 
Well, you know, puberty is a rough estimate.  I'm not saying it's a chemical certainity.  We all know what puberity is.  It's chest hairs and cumming when you jack off.  Duh!  On women, it's tits and periods.
 
There's no necessary correlation that I know of.  What I'm saying is that at that age you can learn the lesson that my mom taught me about fucking young women.  There's no magic about 18-years old.
 
So why do  we prolong the age of majority for the extra 4-5 years?  It's because we want to sell the daughter on the best market.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #42 on: Mar 30th, 2012, 2:10pm »
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on Mar 30th, 2012, 12:58am, MW wrote:
So why do  we prolong the age of majority for the extra 4-5 years?  It's because we want to sell the daughter on the best market.

 
Ho hum, I just ain't sure about that, my friend. Most parents with teenage girls would vehemently deny it – of that I am sure. Not that the latter is proof of anything. If what you claim in this respect is to make any sense, one must assume that there's an inherent factor in play here – something subliminal, almost, which underlies these laws and mores; it certainly isn't an outspoken, generally held view: I think we can both agree on that.
 
One thing to consider in this context is that the role of marriage (once the very reason why it was plausible, perhaps even necessary to regard daughters in a certain light – i.e. as chattel, property, bargaining chips) has changed radically in modern, western culture. It's not uncommon for modern women to wait until they're well past what was once considered their “expiration date” before they get married. It's not uncommon for modern women not to get married at all – for that matter. And it's becoming increasingly common for women to wait until they hit their 30s before they become mothers. All this speaks, it would seem, against the idea of protecting one's chattel, etc. People, it would seem, simply don't think (not even subconsciously) in these terms anymore.
 
As for the age of consent, yes – I would agree that 18 is a more or less random number. It's not 18 in all jurisdictions, though. 16 (and even 15) is a common enough age of consent in western countries/states. My point is that the law (any law) must presuppose that some subjects are legal (because they're considered informed, mature, aware of the law itself, etc.) and others are NOT (because they're considered uninformed, immature, not aware of the law itself, etc.) If everyone is a legal subject one equates, in principle, a baby with a grown man – or a madman with a sane person. There will always be shades – but this pertains to how the law is handled, not the law itself. The authorities, in the shape of a cop, may choose to arrest a couple of teenage sweethearts for having sex – but said cop should have the common sense to leave them alone, and usually he or she will do just that. But if you make it legal, in terms of the law, for – say – 13 year olds to engage in sexual intercourse, it would become a hell of a lot more difficult to prosecute sexual predators. It ain't that complicated, really – when you look at it from this angle.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #43 on: Mar 30th, 2012, 2:23pm »
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on Mar 29th, 2012, 9:09pm, BobbyBare wrote:
I think it is all a matter of culture, and the law usually reflects the current culture, whether it is right or wrong, especially regarding sexual matters and customs.
For instance up to fairly recently  in most parts of Europe  it was  considered normal for teenagge boys to be encouraged to  visit prostitutes to lntroduce them to sex, get acquainted well with the female anatomy, instead of having sex with girls their own age, or worse get them pregnant, which would have been a big disgrace in those days.
So you see this sexual relationship of a teenage boy with an older, experienced woman was considerd as esssential in serving many purposes, apart from having a safe sexual outlet for the boy  instead of him growing up sexually frustrated.
But today most consider this as outragious and even illegal, even though it was practical and made sense.
The result is that we have out of hand teenage ptegnancies, and countless sexually frustrated youths, and people in jail for lack of understanding by society. Also the rampant porno addiction due to the same reasons.
I have more to say about this, but I will do so in another post, especially regarding changing customs.
 
Btw, MW, regarding an earlier post which I didn't have time to reply to, where did I say that only teenage girls can get .pregnant? That is a ridiculous statement, if there ever was one.

 
It was absolutely one sided, though – wasn't it? Teenage girls weren't sent to male prostitutes in order to learn about the male anatomy. There may have been good sides to this old practice – but I suspect it was about a million bad sides to it as well. Learning about sex from a prostitute may have its advantages (I speak from experience here, believe it or not), but it's a very limited knowledge at the end of the day. They get paid, you know. That usually makes a difference.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #44 on: Mar 30th, 2012, 8:39pm »
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Right, lazarus! Prostitutes have no emotional connections to their customers. It's simply a business transaction, from their standpoint. I can see it beneficial for an 18-22 year old guy to get his initial experience from an older woman. Hopefully, she will not be a drunk neurotic, portrayed by Anne Bancroft, as "Mrs. Robinson", in "The Graduate"!
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #45 on: Mar 30th, 2012, 11:12pm »
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on Mar 30th, 2012, 2:10pm, lazarus wrote:

 
Ho hum, I just ain't sure about that, my friend. Most parents with teenage girls would vehemently deny it – of that I am sure. Not that the latter is proof of anything. If what you claim in this respect is to make any sense, one must assume that there's an inherent factor in play here – something subliminal, almost, which underlies these laws and mores; it certainly isn't an outspoken, generally held view: I think we can both agree on that.

 
Well, once we had laws outlawing interracial marriage and we all believed them to be correct and proper.  It takes a little effort to change things.  Once people catch on that there is an injustice being perpetrated, they usually roll their tired, sorry asses off the couch and lend a hand to fixing things.  
 
"[S]omething subliminal, almost, which underlies these laws and mores...?"  I believe you are referring to a conspiracy theory?  Unless you are willing to say everything wrong with a social belief system is a conspiracy, you will admit that some belief systems are just that, belief systems.  For example, I do not believe, nor will I ever, that segregation was a conspiracy in the main.  It's just that from 1945 to 1954 (when Brown v. Bd. of Educ. was decided), people just naturally bought into the belief system that people of African descent  were inferior...particularly in the intellectual department.  
 
The collective minds of the people just had to change.  It wasn't that they had to give up the ghost on some ignoble comspiracy idea.  They were just 'unaware' and quite comfortable in their belief.  It took psychologist Kenneth B. Clark to tell them that they were just patently wrong.  And the US Supreme Court just helped that along by so ruling.
 
on Mar 30th, 2012, 2:10pm, lazarus wrote:
One thing to consider in this context is that the role of marriage (once the very reason why it was plausible, perhaps even necessary to regard daughters in a certain light – i.e. as chattel, property, bargaining chips) has changed radically in modern, western culture. It's not uncommon for modern women to wait until they're well past what was once considered their “expiration date” before they get married. It's not uncommon for modern women not to get married at all – for that matter. And it's becoming increasingly common for women to wait until they hit their 30s before they become mothers. All this speaks, it would seem, against the idea of protecting one's chattel, etc. People, it would seem, simply don't think (not even subconsciously) in these terms anymore.

 
Look at it from the woman's perspective.  Women are seeking self-supporting careers and abandoning marriage precisely because as an institution it turns them into chattel.  It's just another in a long line of vestigial institutions that, like age laws, try to turn women into chattel.
 
on Mar 30th, 2012, 2:10pm, lazarus wrote:
As for the age of consent, yes – I would agree that 18 is a more or less random number. It's not 18 in all jurisdictions, though. 16 (and even 15) is a common enough age of consent in western countries/states. My point is that the law (any law) must presuppose that some subjects are legal (because they're considered informed, mature, aware of the law itself, etc.) and others are NOT (because they're considered uninformed, immature, not aware of the law itself, etc.) If everyone is a legal subject one equates, in principle, a baby with a grown man – or a madman with a sane person. There will always be shades – but this pertains to how the law is handled, not the law itself. The authorities, in the shape of a cop, may choose to arrest a couple of teenage sweethearts for having sex – but said cop should have the common sense to leave them alone, and usually he or she will do just that. But if you make it legal, in terms of the law, for – say – 13 year olds to engage in sexual intercourse, it would become a hell of a lot more difficult to prosecute sexual predators. It ain't that complicated, really – when you look at it from this angle.

 
First, the cop should never be put in a position of making that decision.   If the law is wrong, the issue is with the law makers, not the law enforcers.  
 
Second, you say "it would become a hell of a lot more difficult to prosecute sexual predators." Surely you recognize that this is a tautology.  It's like that old gun control argument, 'If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.'  I mean, duh.  That's not an argument to change the law; that's an argument to bring consistentcy and intelligence into the arena.
 
Ideas about outlawry create the outlaws, not the other way around.  Legislation is one of the areas where we create the tomfoolery, and then turn around and say, 'see, we wouldn't need laws if there weren't outlaws.'  A lot of laws are that ill-conceived, and someone should help the poor law makers out.
 
Thirdly, however, I believe the rest of your points we agree on.  Once is is admitted that these are soft, and insubstantial lines of legal demarcation, then it time to ask what, really, are we doing?!  If we have a viable goal to our laws, and age is an imprecise social mechanism to use, then go find the right one.  However, if we are suppressing the sexual maturity of young women because parents want to have a say in who she marries, then I say get out, go to the old folks home and stop meddling in the young woman's life.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #46 on: Mar 30th, 2012, 11:59pm »
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on Mar 29th, 2012, 9:09pm, BobbyBare wrote:
Btw, MW, regarding an earlier post which I didn't have time to reply to, where did I say that only teenage girls can get .pregnant? That is a ridiculous statement, if there ever was one.

 
It was the only logical deduction from your argument.  What I really was pointing out was that this confusion of age with pregnancy was ridiculous thinking.
 
Age doesn't cause pregnancy.  Screwing does.  Likewise, age doesn't prevent pregnancy.  So we ought to realize that pushing up age limits does nothing to curtail pregnancy.  Once you free yourself from the notion of pregnancy being the raison d'ętre for age barriers, you have to face the fact that it's being done for other reasons.  What is the real reason for these age barriers?
 
It makes much more sense to see higher age  for age-of-minority barriers as a means to perpetuate the thinking that women must be controlled and confined, until mom and dad can market her.  We make it illegal for those nasty old men--or aggressive young men, for that matter--to spoil her.  The real reason is to create a kind of confinement until parents can strike a good enough bargain for her.
 
That is historically the real reason.  We don't need any after-the-fact explanations to justify age barriers.  We don't need to repackage them as pregnancy prevention--especially since pregnancy has nothing to do with age.  They are a way to reify the thinking that women are chattel.  Nothing more.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #47 on: Mar 31st, 2012, 12:20pm »
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Saw a brief headline today. Head cheer leader for the CINCINIATTI BENGLES is charges by a grand jury ( did not say what the actual charges are ) for having sex with an 18 yro football player while she was a teacher. WTF, makes me wonder who files these charges in the first place. CIT has always been a straight lace town. Would not surprise me if half the prosecutors office was not a bunch of perverts themselves. They are the ones who get over zealous and can ruin lives. From experience, I have learned how law enforcement can get out of control and refuse to admit they were wrong in their pursuits when all the facts show otherwise.  
  As always, I get insight and enjoyment reading peoples comments which gives a good insight on how people really think. All were happy for the young man and wish it had been them. Really nothing new here, has been going on since time began.  LEO C
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #48 on: Mar 31st, 2012, 2:02pm »
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on Mar 31st, 2012, 12:20pm, leo_c wrote:
Saw a brief headline today. Head cheer leader for the CINCINIATTI BENGLES is charges by a grand jury ( did not say what the actual charges are ) for having sex with an 18 yro football player while she was a teacher. WTF, makes me wonder who files these charges in the first place. CIT has always been a straight lace town. Would not surprise me if half the prosecutors office was not a bunch of perverts themselves. They are the ones who get over zealous and can ruin lives. From experience, I have learned how law enforcement can get out of control and refuse to admit they were wrong in their pursuits when all the facts show otherwise.  
  As always, I get insight and enjoyment reading peoples comments which gives a good insight on how people really think. All were happy for the young man and wish it had been them. Really nothing new here, has been going on since time began.  LEO C  

 
Hi Leo,
Another good case in point, innit?  I saw it briefly.  Was it 18-years old?  Then it shouldn't be statutory rape.  The basis of that law is legal incapacity to consent.  But keep in mind that there are other laws governing the teacher/pupil relationship...like forbidding it regardless of age.  Maybe Ohio has something like that.
 
We're seeing this in San Diego with that teacher/student couple who moved in together: James Hooker and Jorden Powers.  He is 41 and she just turned 18; they say a sexual relationship never started until she was of age.  
 
Now California has introduced a bill in the State Legislature to outlaw teacher/student relationships regardless of age.  They say it prevents the teacher from "grooming" the student.  That's precisely what the girl's mother said, He was grooming Jorden.  
 
Pawsh...wherever they get this 'new age' bullshit language is beyond me.  'If you can name it, well I guess it's got to be real.'  Roll Eyes "Gooming??!"  I ask you, isn't that just the kind of patronizing, condescending, superciliousness you would expect from a parent who wants to preserve her daughter as chattel?  "Grooming??"  Like she's some fookin' pure-bred horse!  Innit?
 
Hey Ma, maybe Jorden knows how to groom herself, thank you very much! She's 18-years old, fer crissake.  Get used to it and butt out.
 
These laws have a real problem in that, with the daughter being a consenting adult, it's like trying to put them into an involuntary conservatorship.  The mother invokes the 'grooming' law and then the daughter goes after the mother and the State legally, accusing them of stalking, invasion of privacy, possible wrongful imprisonment, intermeddling, defamation, violation of civil rights (freedom of First Amendment right to associate with whomever you want), plus violation of the Civil Rights Act of 1871 under color of state law, 42 USC § 1983, and abuse of process, just fer good measure. Oh, and let's not forget alienation of affections, loss of consortium, tortuous interference with prospective economic advantage and extreme emotional distress--all causes of action in which Mr. Hooker can join in too and you get federal punitive damages for the Civil Rights Act. Get the picture?  Fun?  Great for family relationships, eh?  Like I say, law makers cause most of the trouble in this world...worse than bankers, they are.  
 
Leo, what you are going up against, in advocating a double standard,  is the stone wall of inequality.  Nothing destroys public confidence in the law like a double standard.  Look around you...say in Sanford Fl., to borrow from another arena of double standards.  The nation is going batshit over another example of a double standards between Blacks and Whites in--where??--the South, naturally.  Well, duh.
 
But, anyway, you see how explosive and distructive of trust the double standard can be, anywhere in this country, no matter the issue.
Cheers,
MW
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #49 on: Mar 31st, 2012, 9:28pm »
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MW,
I am strongly with you, regarding James Hooker & Jorden Powers! Although I feel bad that he left his wife, this is not something that laws, parents, or even employers should interfere with! I thought that, so long as a student was 18, and graduated (or otherwise out of the school), no action could be taken against the teacher. There is a ridiculous law, in Ohio, regarding teachers dating 18 year olds, while they are in school. I know this, as my State Senator provided me with it. He did so, when I asked him not to pass a similar law, in New York. Mercifully, it never came to the floor of the State Senate. Not only that, but its sponsor is now facing charges of political corruption!
That being said, the Bengal cheerleader's case could serve as a test of the legality of Ohio's law. When a young man is 17, and certainly 18, a consensual relationship with a female teacher WILL NOT do him any harm, either now, or years later! It is only when a boy is very young that these encounters may lead to "issues"! I hope the cheerleader successfully contests the charges. For that matter, the young man, now graduated, should testify that he was NOT HARMED, and that charges against his former teacher should be dropped!
Finally concerning the "grooming" of Jorden Powers by James Hooker, Jorden is old enough to accept this man! Most romances involves some sort of "grooming", or "courtship"! You are right on target here!
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #50 on: Apr 1st, 2012, 12:05am »
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on Mar 31st, 2012, 9:28pm, SingleDonald wrote:

That being said, the Bengal cheerleader's case could serve as a test of the legality of Ohio's law. When a young man is 17, and certainly 18, a consensual relationship with a female teacher WILL NOT do him any harm, either now, or years later! It is only when a boy is very young that these encounters may lead to "issues"! I hope the cheerleader successfully contests the charges. For that matter, the young man, now graduated, should testify that he was NOT HARMED, and that charges against his former teacher should be dropped!
Finally concerning the "grooming" of Jorden Powers by James Hooker, Jorden is old enough to accept this man! Most romances involves some sort of "grooming", or "courtship"! You are right on target here!

 
Don,
I'm glad we can agree on the San Diego case.  You are right on, in that grooming is just falling in love, and being loved back.  If we need the State to govern that, then we need agents in every bedroom, measuring dick lenth to see if your love is 'true'.
 
In the Ohio case, if the boy was 18-years old, then fuck-off State of Ohio.  I can tell you with utter confidence such laws will be ruled unconstitutional.  In the First Amendment there is a guaranteed right of freedom to associate.  The First Amendment has been declared the first, and most fundamental right of the land.  No violations tolerated, except in events of National Security.  Plus, that is a violation of section 1983, which allows for punative damages.  Any State that wants to fuck with the First Amendment, had better have its ducks in a row.  It's taboo at the Supreme Court level.
 
Cheers,
MW
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #51 on: Apr 1st, 2012, 7:41am »
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on Mar 30th, 2012, 2:23pm, lazarus wrote:

 
It was absolutely one sided, though – wasn't it? Teenage girls weren't sent to male prostitutes in order to learn about the male anatomy. There may have been good sides to this old practice – but I suspect it was about a million bad sides to it as well. Learning about sex from a prostitute may have its advantages (I speak from experience here, believe it or not), but it's a very limited knowledge at the end of the day. They get paid, you know. That usually makes a difference.

 
Lazarus, that is why the double standard in nudity existed, that is girls could look at naked males but not the other way round.  This redressed the balance of how boys learned about the female anatomy as I described, and girls had theirs through the double standard often mentioned on this and other forums.
What you suggest, of why girls did not go, or sent,  to male prostitutes would not have been acceptable in any society, for obvious reasons.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #52 on: Apr 1st, 2012, 2:00pm »
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 The double standard that a lot bemoan on this site has been around since time began and will remain so, get use to it.
  Some time back, I had occasion to do some research into different customs and practices. This covered the areas of the south pacific, indo china and areas of africa. In all those cultures, past and present, the differences of the treatment of males and females are quite different. Should be of no surprise to anyone. Females are expected to be chaise while males are expected to be ready for manhood at various ages, usually at a quite younger age than what we enlightened, progressive, inclusive, politically correct westerners consider proper today.  
  Nothing new here, females have always been the care givers, nurtures of societies and are raised to do so either as a natural function of their gender or guidance from their elders. Females are encouraged or permitted from a young age to discover and be comfortable with the male body in a different way than boys being introduced to females. As far as I know, young females have been allowed and perhaps encouraged to discover what young boys look like from an early age. By the time in their late adolescence, they should and probably are programed to not be overly impressed by a nude male body. It is expected for a young female to assist in the care and bathing of a child. It WAS routine for boys to skinny dip in the presence of girls of all ages and was not a big deal. Mothers, aunts and older sisters encouraged it, in my experience anyway.  
  I believe that we in the west are allowing novels, TV and movie scripts to cloud our judgement of reality and allowing the screen writers to influence our thinking. How many of us actually see female cops on the beat? Is politically correct to have them on the force but the majority are spokespersons, dispatchers or evidence gathers. If she is actually on patrol, you can bet your ass that there is backup for her really close by. Consider FIREMAN, not EMS. How many females do you actually see out there?  
  The military is another good example. To be politically correct, females are increasingly being included in male rolls. Seems like the services are taking hints from movie writers and trying to include them in traditionally male rolls. I get a big kick from a photo that has been circulating for years. Was an all female flight crew flying a big C-5 cargo jet to the middle east. Looked impressive? Truth be know, the plane flies itself, just has to be programed. If any of you were around one long enough, you could do it. Years ago, FRANK LORENZON of continental/ eastern fame wanted to have cockpit flight crews be referred to as FLIGHT STATION MONITORS. Naturally the unions would have no part of it. Just like today, there are no stewardesses, they are flight or cabin attendants, TOO important to bring you a cup of coffee.  
  I have to apologize, have lost tracks of my original thoughts on double standards. Will be back later.  LEO C
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #53 on: Apr 1st, 2012, 4:36pm »
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Hi Leo,
Actually, you make a pretty good argument from ethical naturalism.  Ethical naturalism derives all moral goodness from nature.  Ethical naturalism is very much in favor with the left today, where such things as organic foods, free range chickens, endangered species, Clean water Acts and opposition to global warming, to name a few, receive praise and applause.   Ethical naturalism favors the way it's found in nature, as opposed to the way man can screw up nature.
 
As a progressive, it bothers me that the Left embraces this mystical philosophy without a more critical eye.  But as you will see, it's used by the other side just as well.
 
Ethical naturalism has a rather gruesome side, too.  Witness this comment:
 
Quote:
Ethical naturalism encompasses any reduction of ethical properties, such as 'goodness', to non-ethical properties; there are many different examples of such reductions, and thus many different varieties of ethical naturalism. Hedonism, for example, is the view that goodness is ultimately just pleasure.

 
You argue that the double standard is good, because that's the way it's found in Nature.  But, since time immemorial, so too has slavery always been found in nature.  With a few minor adjustments, I can take your very own words, substitute the word slavery for the expression double standards, and make an argument that would justify reinstituting a system of slavery in our society.
 
Haha, I guess for a lot of Americans, that would not be a troublesome idea.  But I think for most of the human world today, that would be offensive.
 
For many centuries since recorded thoughts have been around, ethical naturalism has been put to no good.  It's good because it's natural, in one form or another,  has been used to justify the Devine Right of Kings, the Landed Aristocracy, the Spanish Inquisition, and indeed many of the twisted practices of the Roman Church--including, most recently, diddling little boys.
 
Please allow me to borrow a brief passage from Dr. David Menton on an early naturalist, who yet rejected ethical naturalism...Charles Darwin:
 
Quote:
The Religion of Nature: Social Darwinism
by David N. Menton, Ph.D.
 
It has been said that no book, other than the Bible, has had a greater affect on society than Darwin's On the Origin of Species. Evolutionist Steven Jay Gould, wrote that following the publication of On the Origin of Species in 1859, "subsequent arguments for slavery, colonialism, racial differences, class structures, and sex roles would go forth primarily under the banner of science" (The Mismeasure of Man, W.W. Norton and Company, New York, 1981, p. 72). Darwin himself seemed to approve of the application of his evolutionary ideas to moral and social issues. In a letter to H. Thiel in 1869, Darwin said:
 
"You will really believe how much interested I am in observing that you apply to moral and social questions analogous views to those which I have used in regard to the modification of species. It did not occur to me formerly that my views could be extended to such widely different and most important subjects." (The Life and Letters of Charles Darwin, Francis Darwin editor, D. Appleton and Co., 1896, Vol. 2, p . 294).  
 
The feature of Darwinism most often cited by those who attempt to justify their moral and social views with "science" (evolution), is the concept of the "survival of the fittest." This application of Darwinian dogma to human society and behavior is known as Social Darwinism.

 
Social Darwinism is but one attempt at ethical naturalism.  But, it is one of the most glaring examples of the injustice of the thinking.    Just because something "is the way it is," is no reason to adopt it, or even extole its features as good qualities.
 
 Arrrggg...there be danger in them waters.  
 
Cheers,
MW
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #54 on: Apr 1st, 2012, 7:57pm »
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OFF-TOPIC, But Related
MW,
I appreciate your supporting views, on the Ohio & California matters. I can direct you to a retired professor, who has taken up the cause of consensual dating. Professor Barry Dank leads a group, entitled, "Sexual Consent on Campus". He is chiefly concerned with professor/student consensual dating, and, by extension, to workplace dating. He agreed with me, in the James Hooker/Jorden Powers association. You, and all members can see his scholarly writings, on "The Dank Professor" weblog.
 My position is that no employer, public OR private, should have the right to "prohibit" after hours dating, among his staff. This includes people at asymmetrical levels, or dating outsiders, such as customers. I believe that CIVIL RIGHTS apply here, since you can't use the U.S. & State Constitutions, when dealing with a private employer. So long as no overt favoritism is displayed, and no sexual harassment takes place, the matter is between, or among the people involved. Also, there is a question of enforcement. Would a mere sighting of, say me and my female manager, at a restaurant, movie theater, or of one entering the other's residence be grounds for "discipline"?  
I know that the "Employment at Will" common law doctrine says that an employee can be terminated for any reason, or no reason at all, unless the firing was based on racial, ethnic, religious, sexual, or sexual orientation reasons. I feel that this common law principle is outdated, and gives too much power to the employer. I recall a noted San Francisco attorney winning a case against I.B.M., in the 1980's. A woman sued, since she was fired for dating a former co-worker, who went to work for a competitor of I.B.M. However, I understand that recent court cases have been won by employers.  
Do you think this trend will reverse anytime soon? Very few companies actually enforce these draconian rules, but the 20% or so that do are wrong!!
I want to thank everyone for bearing with this off-topic subject. I feel it is related, though, as it involves after hours, consensual activities, between 2 adults.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #55 on: Apr 1st, 2012, 11:59pm »
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Hi Don,
I do sympathize with your position, although as a lawyer I have won many of those cases of which you speak.  You are speaking of Title VII, which outlaws employment discrimination in four different areas: race, national origin, sex and religion.  The ADEA and the ADA later added age and disability.
 
Sexual harassment came about as a sub-category of sex discrimination...failure to maintain a workplace free of discrimination.  
 
Although many companies have installed workplace rules to anticipate and prevent harassment, these are not what the law makes unlawful.  Under sexual harassment laws, there must be adverse action.  Ironically, an employer that prohibits dating might be hit with a suit if he fires a couple that is dating.  The rule is, no discrimination based on sex, and such a termination would be discrimination based on sex.  
 
So sex as a part of workplace rules is not from the Title II law, but is a good practice for one, particularly a manager, to follow.  Dating in the workplace is complicated by superiors dating subordinates, because if the relationship goes sour the manager can make it hard on the subordinate.  When a couple breaks up they tend to be embittered toward one another, and this can lead to retaliation (ever seen that in a divorce??).  And that, friends, is adverse action--illegal discrimination based on sex.  So that's why intra-company dating is frowned upon in the rules.
 
I don't believe you have ever heard me say that Title VII expressly prohibits the dating situation.  It doesn't, to my knowledge.  What is prohibited, however, is only one-half an inch away.  As soon as the break-up, somebody is bound to take adverse action--usually the superior.  And that is illegal.
 
So I generally advise people to stay away from these situations, particularly if you are the manager or superior.
 
The other time I comment, is in the 'no-one is superior' situation, when a man and a woman are on a business trip and maybe share a room.  If the guy, uninvited, takes his clothes off and starts jacking off--that is a straight-forward failure to maintain a workplace free of discrimination.  Do you see the difference?  In that situation you don't have the superior/subordinate relationship, but you do have direct act: a guy downright acting lewdly in front of his co-worker.  Trouble with a capital T.
 
Cheers,
MW
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #56 on: Apr 2nd, 2012, 1:25pm »
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Many thanks, MW!
I have always maintained that 2 adults should be sensible, and act responsibly, if a breakup occurs. I know that the law doesn't prohibit consensual dating. Sexual Harassment comes down to : Quid Pro Quo, or Hostile Work Environment. The example of the guy masturbating in the motel room falls under Hostile Work Environment. Really, can you imagine a company ever putting opposite genders in the same motel room?
I probably worry more about this than I should. I retired from my Civil Service career, 1 1/2 years ago. My State Agency didn't have any "rule" involving consensual dating. In fact, I think I earlier reported that our now retired Director of Administration first dated his secretary for about a dozen years, then married her. Any promotions she got were the result of Civil Service Exams she did well on. She did not rise unrealistically, on the job! So, no problem existed there. The director retired about 2 decades after they were married.
I believe all concerned, dating couples, co workers, and supervisors/bosses should have a "leave well enough alone" attitude. If workplace problems develop, they should be addressed, before sexual harassment takes place.
 I recall when Sexual Harassment first became an issue, around 1980. Lin Farley wrote a book entitled, "Sexual Shakedown". In 1984, Gov. Mario Cuomo issued an executive order prohibiting sexual harassment, which applied to all New York State workers. Interestingly, this measure concluded with the phrase that this order was not intended to violate anyone's existing rights. It never did, as no "rule" against dating was ever imposed. Then, in 1986, we had the Meritor vs. Vincent case, where the Supreme Court of the U.S. ruled that Title IX did prohibit sexual harassment.  
So, as a non lawyer, I know something! I regret, though, that sexual harassment has created such a hyperbole that some people now become paranoid, over things which were comonplace, a very short time ago. Could it be that the "cure" is worse than the "disease"??
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #57 on: Apr 3rd, 2012, 12:53pm »
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on Apr 2nd, 2012, 1:25pm, SingleDonald wrote:
Many thanks, MW!
I have always maintained that 2 adults should be sensible, and act responsibly, if a breakup occurs. I know that the law doesn't prohibit consensual dating. Sexual Harassment comes down to : Quid Pro Quo, or Hostile Work Environment. The example of the guy masturbating in the motel room falls under Hostile Work Environment. Really, can you imagine a company ever putting opposite genders in the same motel room?

 
Actually, my answer falls in the "gotcha" department.  Ha-ha...so rare.  That example comes from a real Federal case on which I consulted to give an opinion.  
 
Preliminarily, allow me to point out that an employer rarely arranges travel accommodations for employees; employees are generally left to arrange things for themselves, and turn in the cost on an expense account.  
 
So, this case happened with a federal agency tasked with finding and prosecuting welfare fraud.  The two, a man and a woman, were federal agents.  Because they were investigating on the street by the day, they worked into the late hours developing case theories, strategizing and doing paperwork.  Because so many of the tasks required teamwork, they would typically request two rooms with an unlocked door in between.  Hotels will generally have such arrangements for families, etc., where mom and dad sleep in one room and the kids sleep in the other.  In this case, these two investigators took advantage of the arrangement to share working time.
 
Well, one evening--Haha, I guess, when there wasn't as much work--the woman was in her room and in pops the male investigator, stark naked, sporting a manly hard-on, which he was affectionately manually "pleasing."  
 
It would be downright comical if it wasn't tragic.  They had a really good teamwork relationship, and he misinterpreted it.  It was such a bizarre case that the government wanted an outside opinion.  They called me in to advise them.
 
What I recommended is unimportant.  The guy wasn't fired.  He was compelled to take sexual harrassment classes, and he was demoted and transferred.  The real tragedy was how he dealt with it with his wife and family.
 
on Apr 2nd, 2012, 1:25pm, SingleDonald wrote:
I probably worry more about this than I should. I retired from my Civil Service career, 1 1/2 years ago. My State Agency didn't have any "rule" involving consensual dating. In fact, I think I earlier reported that our now retired Director of Administration first dated his secretary for about a dozen years, then married her. Any promotions she got were the result of Civil Service Exams she did well on. She did not rise unrealistically, on the job! So, no problem existed there. The director retired about 2 decades after they were married.
I believe all concerned, dating couples, co workers, and supervisors/bosses should have a "leave well enough alone" attitude. If workplace problems develop, they should be addressed, before sexual harassment takes place.
 I recall when Sexual Harassment first became an issue, around 1980. Lin Farley wrote a book entitled, "Sexual Shakedown". In 1984, Gov. Mario Cuomo issued an executive order prohibiting sexual harassment, which applied to all New York State workers. Interestingly, this measure concluded with the phrase that this order was not intended to violate anyone's existing rights. It never did, as no "rule" against dating was ever imposed. Then, in 1986, we had the Meritor vs. Vincent case, where the Supreme Court of the U.S. ruled that Title IX did prohibit sexual harassment.  
So, as a non lawyer, I know something! I regret, though, that sexual harassment has created such a hyperbole that some people now become paranoid, over things which were comonplace, a very short time ago. Could it be that the "cure" is worse than the "disease"??

 
Well, Title IX has to do with education.  The law of workplace sexual harassment is a part of Title VII of the 1964 Civil Rights Act, 42 USC § 2000(e), et seq, as amended.   (In another thread I called it Title II--that was a typo, as I had inadvertantly omitted the 'V'.)  I have attended numerous seminars, and I have given many seminalrs to State Agencies in Arizona and California.  
 
While not a part of the written law, most experts agree that sexual harrassment is a matter of the female's opinion of the facts, rather than the male's opinion of the facts.  Ah-ha, our old friend the double standard.  This is because it is assumed that the man will accept much more than a woman.  I have argued that this is based upon the thinking that the man is in charge, and that is a sexist presumption that casts the man as the patriarch inevitably, thus perpetuating sexism.  But women love their victim posturing.  
 
Raging debate, that.  Feminist lawyers stand up in these seminars and argue that it's is the only solution, as sexual harrassment inetivally victimizes women.  But many cases have since shown the opposite--women sexually harrassing men. (And what about gays?  And keep in mind that the issue is adverse action; when it comes to a retaliation situation, I say there is more vindictiveness in estrogen than testorone.)  But feiminist lawyers argue what I have so often heard here: It's not as bad when it happens to men, because...well, men love it, men can't be victims, men will get over it, double-standard, double-standard, blah, blah, blah.  So, when it comes to direct sexual harrassment, and what constitutes distasteful, sexual situations, a large element of the judges and lawyers will use the woman's viewpoint, whether the plaintiff/victim is male or female.  
 
Too bad, but you will admit that the male is more permissive.  Don, we've just been talking about this female cheerleader/teacher in Ohio, having sex with a 16-year old male student?  Interesting to note that at her arraignment yesterday, even the boy's family attended and asked for leniency.  Apparently, even the victims say the male perspective is more accepting, regardless of the double standard.  Well, for me it's just interesting.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #58 on: Apr 3rd, 2012, 7:04pm »
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MW,
I forgot that Title VII handles workplace situations, in my last post, on this thread. Also, I knew you meant VII, and skipped the "V"!
Concerning male perspective, it depends on the individual circumstances. I previously stated that I would have LOVED the attention Meredith, the Demi Moore character, gave to Michael Douglas' character, in "Disclosure". However, as Michael's character was married, he didn't want to do anything sexual with Meredith, so THAT made it sexual harassment. On a side note, I think Meredith was a caring woman. If her actions were merely a "power play", she would have gently guided Michael Douglas' head down to give her a face job! As she was willing to "do him", that tells me it wasn't all about "power"!  
I feel feminists have a problem in that they see "power plays", with anything having to do with sex! Shame on them!
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #59 on: Apr 3rd, 2012, 8:39pm »
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The double standard has nothing to do with politics, philosophy, or feminism. It is a uniersal practice and has always been so throughout history, and for a very simple reason. It is the female that has to be protected from the male, and not the other way round, for physical and psychological reasons.  
It seems that only me and Leo seem to aggree on this point.
It is no use quoting exceptional cases, because basically by far the most frequent cases of sexual harassment are done by males against females.. It is the same with rape or sexual assault. The other way are only exceptions. So there is no comparasin.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #60 on: Apr 3rd, 2012, 11:07pm »
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on Apr 3rd, 2012, 8:39pm, BobbyBare wrote:
The double standard has nothing to do with politics, philosophy, or feminism. It is a uniersal practice and has always been so throughout history, and for a very simple reason. It is the female that has to be protected from the male, and not the other way round, for physical and psychological reasons.  
It seems that only me and Leo seem to aggree on this point.
It is no use quoting exceptional cases, because basically by far the most frequent cases of sexual harassment are done by males against females.. It is the same with rape or sexual assault. The other way are only exceptions. So there is no comparasin.

 
Hummm...  Not very much critical thinking there.  Just your edict, again with the ethical naturalism theme.  Let me put it in a different way: Do you have any proof that "It is a uniersal practice and has always been so throughout history, and for a very simple reason. It is the female that has to be protected from the male, and not the other way round, for physical and psychological reasons."  
 
No?  No proof?  
 
No proof that the universal practive is real?  
 
No proof that it has alway been throughout history?  
 
No proof that the female has to be protected?  
 
No proof of the physical and psychological reasons?  
 
And while we're at it, why should we give any credence to your so-called universal theory?  Even if it were universal, which you cannot prove, why is it advisable?
 
Absent proof, it's just your opinion.
 
Ok, if that's the way you feel, let's move to the next subject.  You cannot provide proof and I doubt you are correct.  
 
We agree to disagree on this one.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #61 on: Apr 3rd, 2012, 11:37pm »
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on Apr 3rd, 2012, 7:04pm, SingleDonald wrote:
MW,
I forgot that Title VII handles workplace situations, in my last post, on this thread. Also, I knew you meant VII, and skipped the "V"!
Concerning male perspective, it depends on the individual circumstances. I previously stated that I would have LOVED the attention Meredith, the Demi Moore charachter, gave to Michael Douglas' charachter, in "Disclosure". However, as Michael's charachter was married, he didn't want to do anything sexual with Meredith, so THAT made it sexual harassment. On a side note, I think Meredith was a caring woman. If her actions were merely a "power play", she would have gently guided Michael Douglas' head down to give her a face job! As she was willing to "do him", that tells me it wasn't all about "power"!  
I feel feminists have a problem in that they see "power plays", with anything having to do with sex! Shame on them!

 
Disclosure, originally a book written by Michael Crichton, was a moral passion play.  I don't agree that Meredith was a caring woman.  
 
All along, she was in a devil's pact with the Donald Southerland character, to entrap Douglas and get him fired.  She tried by sucking his cock, and alleging discrimination after-the-fact.  She got caught when the cell phone caught the action and showed her to be a liar.  
 
When that failed, she tried by lying before the meeting of the stockholders.  But Douglas had already been in contact with Milaysian branch, and had gotten the data.  So when she lied and told the stockholders that she had never been in the Milaysian factory, Douglas was already putting up on the screen pictures of her in the Milaysian factory.  The cathartic moment was when she was asked to leave the stockholder's meeting in disgrace.
 
It wasn't a very profound passion play.  But it was 'good' triumphs over 'evil', and 'truth' triumphs over' lying'.  Meredith was the wicked pawn, and Southerland was the devil manipulator.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #62 on: Apr 4th, 2012, 6:59pm »
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Thanks, MW!  
Even my good memory has some lapses, and I'm glad you reviewed that movie for me. I was only concentrating on Meredith's sexual interaction with the Michael Douglas character, not her overall role in trying to "take him down". Indeed, she was hardly a "caring woman"!
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #63 on: Apr 10th, 2012, 12:36pm »
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Have not been following the story, just passing interest so I clicked on news concerning the cheer leader and the young man story. Someone posted that he was 16 at the time. Saw where his family wanted the law to go easy on her. Not really surprising, Makes you wonder how something like this comes out in the first place.  
  I have to figure that although it did not take place at school, some how the school board got involved. Instead of ignoring the whole thing, people to cover their asses had to kick their responsibility to higher authorities and finally someone had to reluctantly do something. Everything could have been denied but I think the young man was badgered and cohersed into coming clean. I can picture the investigating people actually getting a charge out of the story and leading him on.  
  Would think that all involved, is actually between the woman and young man now, wish the whole thing would go away. In my opinion only, was a good experience for the young man, no harm done. Have personally witnessed the same type of situation have only positive results over an extended 3 or 4 year period so I am a bit biased.  LEO C
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #64 on: Apr 10th, 2012, 11:00pm »
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I tend to agree, leo_c! I always say that, though the law should be enforced equally, the impact the sex had on the supposed victim should determine the sentence, or lack thereof. Then, we must consider the time element. If the former student is now a young man, it is, I feel, silly to persecute this woman now! After all, he wasn't "traumatized" by the encounter. The fact that his parents want the authorities to go easy on the now cheerleader shows that he wasn't "harmed" in the least! I also say that, with an older minor boy, the teacher/other adult woman can teach him the proper ways to satisfy a woman. For all these reasons, they should go easy on her!
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #65 on: Apr 11th, 2012, 12:48am »
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on Apr 10th, 2012, 12:36pm, leo_c wrote:
Have not been following the story, just passing interest so I clicked on news concerning the cheer leader and the young man story. Someone posted that he was 16 at the time. Saw where his family wanted the law to go easy on her. Not really surprising, Makes you wonder how something like this comes out in the first place.  
  I have to figure that although it did not take place at school, some how the school board got involved. Instead of ignoring the whole thing, people to cover their asses had to kick their responsibility to higher authorities and finally someone had to reluctantly do something. Everything could have been denied but I think the young man was badgered and cohersed into coming clean. I can picture the investigating people actually getting a charge out of the story and leading him on.  
  Would think that all involved, is actually between the woman and young man now, wish the whole thing would go away. In my opinion only, was a good experience for the young man, no harm done. Have personally witnessed the same type of situation have only positive results over an extended 3 or 4 year period so I am a bit biased.  LEO C

 
Hey Leo,
 
I guess that's  a pretty fair assessment.  Except, in criminal law, the victim is the state not the person.    There have even been cases where the boy stood with the older woman, and the state still prosecuted because it was illegal.  That was the case with Mary Kay Letourneau.
 
There are many kinds of cases where the victim doesn't want to prosecute, and the state goes forward anyway.  Say, spousal abuse, where the woman doesn't want to prosecute because she and the man have made up....but if there is independent evidence, the state will go ahead and prosecute anyway.  .
 
Cheers,
MW
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #66 on: Apr 11th, 2012, 1:06pm »
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MW, thankyou for that clarification on the criminal law thing. Did not know that. I know very little about how the law works and will admit that I do not have total respect for it.  
  If the news continues following the story, will be interesting to see if the prosecutors think it is worth their while to bring the case before a grand jury, if they have to. I remember hearing a saying years ago, A GRAND JURY WILL INDITE A HAM SANDWICH. Then the situation would be put into the hands of a jury who I would hope and expect to practice jury nullification, which I have mentioned before.  
 I certainly would not want to put my situation in front of a single judge. I do not remember all the specifics concerning MARY JOE LATERNO but do remember it looking like a witch hunt and an attempt to ruin her life forever. If I remember correctly, she was even denied access to her own child. However, their might have been reasons for it that did not come out in her trial.   LEO C
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #67 on: Apr 13th, 2012, 4:48pm »
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A general observation:
 
One function of laws – as understood by most modern societies – is to protect individuals from a danger which would be, let's say, more imminent had these laws NOT been in place. This, I think, is the most salient point in the age of consent/statutory rape discussion. Certainly, there may be individuals under the legal age who are capable of making astute judgments on par with those who are, under the letter of the law, of legal age – but this would be true no matter what the legal age is set at: The latter is clearly contingent and should be revised from time to time – but I honestly cannot see any plausible alternative to abandoning the idea itself: As long as the mental habitus of any human being (as far as we know) develops at least partly in tune with his or her maturity in years, the laws must reflect this. If you will, the principle underlying a law which dictates that a person below the age of X cannot have intercourse with an adult is the very same as the one which underlies the law which makes it illegal for a ten year old to buy a bottle of whiskey – or a five year old to drive a car.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #68 on: Apr 13th, 2012, 5:34pm »
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on Apr 1st, 2012, 7:41am, BobbyBare wrote:

 
Lazarus, that is why the double standard in nudity existed, that is girls could look at naked males but not the other way round.  This redressed the balance of how boys learned about the female anatomy as I described, and girls had theirs through the double standard often mentioned on this and other forums.
What you suggest, of why girls did not go, or sent,  to male prostitutes would not have been acceptable in any society, for obvious reasons.

 
Fair enough. To a point. But there's something in this which doesn't add up, no matter how you look upon it. You say that the double standard of old made sure that – to put it simply – girls were allowed to observe boys naked. Good – so they were able to spot the difference, as it were: The basic difference between males and females. Boys, on the other hand, weren't allowed to observe naked girls. So, they might be inclined to believe that girls too had peckers – until that day when their fathers took 'em to the local house of pleasure. And then they got the shock of a lifetime.  
 
I'm kidding, of course. My grandfather was born in 1912 – I'm pretty sure he was aware that girls didn't have peckers, from one source or another, well before he had sex with one. There's such a thing as common knowledge – which doesn't have to be demonstrated in organized forms in order to make people, even very young people, aware of it. Anyway, my granddad was a good guy, I spent much time with him growing up – not least 'cause my dad wasn't around. As I got older I learned a thing or two from him – most of which my mom disapproved of. I won't go into that at length, but I remember a night not long before he died, where the two of us sat in his living room, watching an old western (he loved westerns – had probably seen every flick Randolph Scott ever did), smoking and drinking (I said my mom didn't approve). He told me then (I was just about 18 at the time) about his first time with a girl: A prostitute, which was the standard where he came from. She was a black girl, he told me (the standard at the time, where he came from, too), and the whole story was very much reminiscent of Faulkner's description of Joe Christmas' first time in Light In August (if that means anything to anyone). Not entirely pleasurable, in other words. Very much a rite of passage – not so much a learning experience, if by “learning experience” one understands learning anything useful and/or meaningful about female sexuality. Sure, an embarrassing and possibly traumatic experience may be valuable in the long run too – but not quite educational in the ordinary sense of the word.
 
Well, I digress, I suppose. What I mean is this: A society in which females are allowed to observe naked boys (but not allowed to express any, call it what you will, sexual thoughts about what they've seen) and boys are left to visit prostitutes in order to find out what a – pardon my French – cunt looks like...doesn't sound ideal, somehow. Sounds, in fact, like the recipe for a...oh, wait. Yes. What's that they called it? Sexual...something. Revolution?
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #69 on: Apr 13th, 2012, 6:12pm »
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on Mar 30th, 2012, 11:12pm, MW wrote:

 
Well, once we had laws outlawing interracial marriage and we all believed them to be correct and proper.  It takes a little effort to change things.  Once people catch on that there is an injustice being perpetrated, they usually roll their tired, sorry asses off the couch and lend a hand to fixing things.  
 
"[S]omething subliminal, almost, which underlies these laws and mores...?"  I believe you are referring to a conspiracy theory?  Unless you are willing to say everything wrong with a social belief system is a conspiracy, you will admit that some belief systems are just that, belief systems.  For example, I do not believe, nor will I ever, that segregation was a conspiracy in the main.  It's just that from 1945 to 1954 (when Brown v. Bd. of Educ. was decided), people just naturally bought into the belief system that people of African descent  were inferior...particularly in the intellectual department.  
 
The collective minds of the people just had to change.  It wasn't that they had to give up the ghost on some ignoble comspiracy idea.  They were just 'unaware' and quite comfortable in their belief.  It took psychologist Kenneth B. Clark to tell them that they were just patently wrong.  And the US Supreme Court just helped that along by so ruling.
 
 
Look at it from the woman's perspective.  Women are seeking self-supporting careers and abandoning marriage precisely because as an institution it turns them into chattel.  It's just another in a long line of vestigial institutions that, like age laws, try to turn women into chattel.
 
 
First, the cop should never be put in a position of making that decision.   If the law is wrong, the issue is with the law makers, not the law enforcers.  
 
Second, you say "it would become a hell of a lot more difficult to prosecute sexual predators." Surely you recognize that this is a tautology.  It's like that old gun control argument, 'If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.'  I mean, duh.  That's not an argument to change the law; that's an argument to bring consistentcy and intelligence into the arena.
 
Ideas about outlawry create the outlaws, not the other way around.  Legislation is one of the areas where we create the tomfoolery, and then turn around and say, 'see, we wouldn't need laws if there weren't outlaws.'  A lot of laws are that ill-conceived, and someone should help the poor law makers out.
 
Thirdly, however, I believe the rest of your points we agree on.  Once is is admitted that these are soft, and insubstantial lines of legal demarcation, then it time to ask what, really, are we doing?!  If we have a viable goal to our laws, and age is an imprecise social mechanism to use, then go find the right one.  However, if we are suppressing the sexual maturity of young women because parents want to have a say in who she marries, then I say get out, go to the old folks home and stop meddling in the young woman's life.

 
First of all, I don't understand why you went into that conspiracy territory. The point I was making was that your original argument seems to presuppose that something not obvious, not evident (because, obviously, most parents these days don't consider their daughters on par with whatever stock of pigs or goats they may possess) must be at play: Something inherent, genetic, something akin to a wild animal's fear of fire – maybe my use of “subliminal” was dubious from a scientific standpoint, but I thought my drift was clear enough.
 
Secondly, this quote of mine:
 
"One thing to consider in this context is that the role of marriage (once the very reason why it was plausible, perhaps even necessary to regard daughters in a certain light – i.e. as chattel, property, bargaining chips) has changed radically in modern, western culture. It's not uncommon for modern women to wait until they're well past what was once considered their “expiration date” before they get married. It's not uncommon for modern women not to get married at all – for that matter. And it's becoming increasingly common for women to wait until they hit their 30s before they become mothers. All this speaks, it would seem, against the idea of protecting one's chattel, etc. People, it would seem, simply don't think (not even subconsciously) in these terms anymore."
 
...illustrates the exact point you, seemingly, make against me – by using the quote. Maybe I'm a bit slow (wouldn't rule it out), but I don't get you here at all.
 
Lastly, as far as my tautology is concerned – it ain't really mine. It's a kind of tautology that in one way or another must remain in and with the law: If people of flesh and blood were NOT the subjects of the law – but rather abstractions which at all times remained true to their supposed status – we'd be golden, as they say. But we're not golden – and in the real world what they call sexual predators are very real. Their “work” would in many cases be far easier if the statutory rape category didn't exist. As I said in a post above – the laws are meant to protect individuals against a threat which would have, had the laws not been in place, been significantly greater. There's a logical (for lack of a more precise term – if one exists) side to the law – and a pragmatic one. The former is often lost on most people – the latter is usually more understandable and in tune with what one might call common sense. To me the statutory rape category is nothing but the latter.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #70 on: Apr 13th, 2012, 6:24pm »
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on Mar 30th, 2012, 8:39pm, SingleDonald wrote:
Right, lazarus! Prostitutes have no emotional connections to their customers. It's simply a business transaction, from their standpoint. I can see it beneficial for an 18-22 year old guy to get his initial experience from an older woman. Hopefully, she will not be a drunk neurotic, portrayed by Anne Bancroft, as "Mrs. Robinson", in "The Graduate"!

 
That's exactly right, Donald!
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #71 on: Apr 13th, 2012, 6:38pm »
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Another general point (and sorry for the multiple posts, but what the hell - these days we need posts that, no matter how stupid they may be, don't contain spam or viruses, eh?): To MW: I like your style. I don't agree with you all the time, but you handle yourself well - you argue your case and you don't resort to name calling or ad hominem arguments. I appreciate that. Just wanted to mention this - now, let's put the gloves back on.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #72 on: Apr 13th, 2012, 10:31pm »
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on Apr 13th, 2012, 6:12pm, lazarus wrote:

 
First of all, I don't understand why you went into that conspiracy territory. The point I was making was that your original argument seems to presuppose that something not obvious, not evident (because, obviously, most parents these days don't consider their daughters on par with whatever stock of pigs or goats they may possess) must be at play: Something inherent, genetic, something akin to a wild animal's fear of fire – maybe my use of “subliminal” was dubious from a scientific standpoint, but I thought my drift was clear enough.
 
Secondly, this quote of mine:
 
"One thing to consider in this context is that the role of marriage (once the very reason why it was plausible, perhaps even necessary to regard daughters in a certain light – i.e. as chattel, property, bargaining chips) has changed radically in modern, western culture. It's not uncommon for modern women to wait until they're well past what was once considered their “expiration date” before they get married. It's not uncommon for modern women not to get married at all – for that matter. And it's becoming increasingly common for women to wait until they hit their 30s before they become mothers. All this speaks, it would seem, against the idea of protecting one's chattel, etc. People, it would seem, simply don't think (not even subconsciously) in these terms anymore."
 
...illustrates the exact point you, seemingly, make against me – by using the quote. Maybe I'm a bit slow (wouldn't rule it out), but I don't get you here at all.
 
Lastly, as far as my tautology is concerned – it ain't really mine. It's a kind of tautology that in one way or another must remain in and with the law: If people of flesh and blood were NOT the subjects of the law – but rather abstractions which at all times remained true to their supposed status – we'd be golden, as they say. But we're not golden – and in the real world what they call sexual predators are very real. Their “work” would in many cases be far easier if the statutory rape category didn't exist. As I said in a post above – the laws are meant to protect individuals against a threat which would have, had the laws not been in place, been significantly greater. There's a logical (for lack of a more precise term – if one exists) side to the law – and a pragmatic one. The former is often lost on most people – the latter is usually more understandable and in tune with what one might call common sense. To me the statutory rape category is nothing but the latter.

 
You state that the existence of sexual predators justify the law.  If that were true, you would have to define sexual predators in some terms outside of the term sexual predators.  But you don't; you define sexual predators by the law.  
 
It ls like saying the law is there to keep away sexual predators.  What are sexual predators?  They are the ones that the law is designed to keep away.  That's called a tautology.  It's kinda like lifting yourself up by your own bootstraps.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #73 on: Apr 13th, 2012, 10:42pm »
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on Apr 13th, 2012, 6:38pm, lazarus wrote:
Another general point (and sorry for the multiple posts, but what the hell - these days we need posts that, no matter how stupid they may be, don't contain spam or viruses, eh?): To MW: I like your style. I don't agree with you all the time, but you handle yourself well - you argue your case and you don't resort to name calling or ad hominem arguments. I appreciate that. Just wanted to mention this - now, let's put the gloves back on.

 
Hi Laz,
Thank you Lazuras.  I don't see much point in attacking a person on-line.  You see that so often on the Internet.  All that person is doing is earning himself an ememy.  That makes no sense.  
 
Usually when you encounter that type of person you are dealing with someone who is not sure about himself...and least of all, about his ideas.
 
And may I say, you handle yourself equally well...with the added benefit that, together, we don't turn this place into a an unpleasant place for others.  It's like being a good skiater...I pride myself in skating lithely to my point, rather than cutting the person up.  You do too, obviously.
Cheers,
MW.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #74 on: Apr 20th, 2012, 3:10pm »
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on Apr 13th, 2012, 10:31pm, MW wrote:

 
You state that the existence of sexual predators justify the law.  If that were true, you would have to define sexual predators in some terms outside of the term sexual predators.  But you don't; you define sexual predators by the law.  
 
It ls like saying the law is there to keep away sexual predators.  What are sexual predators?  They are the ones that the law is designed to keep away.  That's called a tautology.  It's kinda like lifting yourself up by your own bootstraps.

 
Hm. The obvious question here is: Would you hold that the existence of sexual predators does not justify the law? I take it, from what you've said elsewhere, that you wouldn't. Now, in a strictly formal sense I might be inclined to agree – because “justification” is a term which may be construed in any number of ways. Something may be, strictly speaking, illogical – and yet justifiable, depending on the circumstances. In other words, something may be unjustifiable in a strictly formal sense (invalid, logically speaking), yet still very much justifiable from a moral viewpoint (the latter being, always, contingent and open to debate – but not less real for that). Again, there's a very much pragmatic side to laws: People ain't angels. People hurt each other in all sorts of ways. That, too, is why we have laws. Your tautology has countless counterparts: Does the existence of murderers (how do you define a “murderer” without the aid of the strictly legal concept of “homicide”?) justify a law against killing people? And so forth.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #75 on: Apr 24th, 2012, 11:19pm »
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on Apr 20th, 2012, 3:10pm, lazarus wrote:

 
Hm. The obvious question here is: Would you hold that the existence of sexual predators does not justify the law? I take it, from what you've said elsewhere, that you wouldn't. Now, in a strictly formal sense I might be inclined to agree – because “justification” is a term which may be construed in any number of ways. Something may be, strictly speaking, illogical – and yet justifiable, depending on the circumstances. In other words, something may be unjustifiable in a strictly formal sense (invalid, logically speaking), yet still very much justifiable from a moral viewpoint (the latter being, always, contingent and open to debate – but not less real for that). Again, there's a very much pragmatic side to laws: People ain't angels. People hurt each other in all sorts of ways. That, too, is why we have laws. Your tautology has countless counterparts: Does the existence of murderers (how do you define a “murderer” without the aid of the strictly legal concept of “homicide”?) justify a law against killing people? And so forth.

 
The tautology is in using the law to justify the law.  It's at worst, a self-contradiction, at best, lifting yourself up by your bootstraps.
 
Agreed, that moral viewpoints can be used to justify lawmaking.  But this is precisely why legislators hold hearings to hear people's viewpoints.  You escape a tautology when you can say, this is what the people say, ergo this is what should be the law.  You are not using the law to justify the law.
 
Interesting that you should use the example of murder vs. not a murder.  I would be interested in how you view the Treyvon Martin killing and the 'stand your ground' law.  Was that a murder?  Didn't Trayvon Martin also stand his ground, and thus get killed for doing something perfectly legal.  And, given that the only person who loses is the one without a gun, isn't this a return to Tombstone in the 1880s?
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #76 on: Apr 30th, 2012, 9:55pm »
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on Apr 24th, 2012, 11:19pm, MW wrote:

 
The tautology is in using the law to justify the law.  It's at worst, a self-contradiction, at best, lifting yourself up by your bootstraps.
 

 
Yes, I agree that it is – but this is only true in a nominal sense, if you will. The law precedes the crime: The crime wouldn't exist if there was no law against it. But that doesn't mean the act (which is deemed unlawful) would cease to exist along with the law. Which is the point. There's a tautology, no doubt, but a grumpier man than me might say that only a sophist would find this tautology interesting.
 
Re: The Martin case. More to follow on that one. Too much booze in the system right now. Later, man.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #77 on: May 1st, 2012, 11:33pm »
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on Apr 30th, 2012, 9:55pm, lazarus wrote:

 
Yes, I agree that it is – but this is only true in a nominal sense, if you will. The law precedes the crime: The crime wouldn't exist if there was no law against it. But that doesn't mean the act (which is deemed unlawful) would cease to exist along with the law. Which is the point. There's a tautology, no doubt, but a grumpier man than me might say that only a sophist would find this tautology interesting.
 
Re: The Martin case. More to follow on that one. Too much booze in the system right now. Later, man.

 
Tautalogies are never 'interesting',  They are only illogical and have no validity.
 
Another interesting example is the one the Nazies made in 1944.  All Jews belong in concentration camps.  Why?  Because Jews are kept in concentration camps.  Why?  Because all Jews belong in concentration camps.  And so forth, ad nausaum.
 
It's an argument that has nothing to stand on.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #78 on: May 2nd, 2012, 5:13pm »
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[quote author=MW link=board=stories;num=1331813078;start=50#77 date=05/01/12 at 23:33:31]
 
Tautalogies are never 'interesting',  They are only illogical and have no validity.
 
Another interesting example is the one the Nazies made in 1944.  All Jews belong in concentration camps.  Why?  Because Jews are kept in concentration camps.  Why?  Because all Jews belong in concentration camps.  And so forth, ad nausaum. (/quote)
 
I think you are are wrong here. There was a reason given by the Nazis why Jews were put in concentration camps. They were considered as a danger to German society, or the political system at the time.  
In fact communists and other "unwaned"  sections of society were also put in concentration camps. But unfortunately we only hear about Jews.
Actually it is being doubted today how 6 million Jews could have possibly been exterminated in just a few months in these few limited concentration camps.
But this is outside the topic being discussed here, which has gone completely off-topic, mainly between you and Lazarus, about the law. Could you give some connection to what you are saying and the case which is, or was,  being discussed here?
 
 
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #79 on: May 2nd, 2012, 10:29pm »
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on May 2nd, 2012, 5:13pm, BobbyBare wrote:
Tautalogies are never 'interesting',  They are only illogical and have no validity.
 
Another interesting example is the one the Nazies made in 1944.  All Jews belong in concentration camps.  Why?  Because Jews are kept in concentration camps.  Why?  Because all Jews belong in concentration camps.  And so forth, ad nausaum. (/quote)
 
I think you are are wrong here. There was a reason given by the Nazis why Jews were put in concentration camps. They were considered as a danger to German society, or the political system at the time.  
In fact communists and other "unwaned"  sections of society were also put in concentration camps. But unfortunately we only hear about Jews.
Actually it is being doubted today how 6 million Jews could have possibly been exterminated in just a few months in these few limited concentration camps.
But this is outside the topic being discussed here, which has gone completely off-topic, mainly between you and Lazarus, about the law. Could you give some connection to what you are saying and the case which is, or was,  being discussed here?

 
Fair point, BB.  We started talking about the whys and wherefores of age limitations.  At some point someone said age limitations deter sexual predators.  I asked what are sexual predators.  Someone said, sexual preditators are those defined by the law that deters sexual predators.
 
I merely pointed out that this is a tautology.
 
This is not off-topic.  Legal issues often take one to such nuances of the subject.  At that point, it becomes somewhat arbitrary to say something is off-topic.  If I ask you if you like the color blue, and we end up talking about blue blazers and the clothing industry, are we off topic?  Certainly not.  We are applying the macro subject to the micro point.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #80 on: May 2nd, 2012, 11:01pm »
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to Bobby Bare
 
re:  Actually it is being doubted today
 
Real figures are between 11 and 12 million total of which 6 million were Jews.  Over a 3+ year period, not a few months.   The 5+ million that were not Jews, were Catholic priests, gypsies, political opponents, lesbnians, homosexuals, children with birth defects, and other groups.    
 
Topic is a bit painful for me, since I personally lost grandparents, aunt, uncle, 1st cousins, and a lot of extended family (ie: Brother/sisters/parents of non blood relatives), and many 2nd/3rd cousins and their families.  
 
Lets move onto another topic, OK.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #81 on: May 2nd, 2012, 11:06pm »
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on May 2nd, 2012, 11:01pm, robert wrote:
to Bobby Bare
 
re:  Actually it is being doubted today
 
Real figures are between 11 and 12 million total of which 6 million were Jews.  Over a 3+ year period, not a few months.   The 5+ million that were not Jews, were Catholic priests, gypsies, political opponents, lesbnians, homosexuals, children with birth defects, and other groups.    
 
Topic is a bit painful for me, since I personally lost grandparents, aunt, uncle, 1st cousins, and a lot of extended family (ie: Brother/sisters/parents of non blood relatives), and many 2nd/3rd cousins and their families.  
 
Lets move onto another topic, OK.

 
Yes, certainly robert.  I'm very sorry for your pain.  I did not mean to minimize the time in which this happened.  But the tautology I mentioned was raised in a letter written in 1944.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #82 on: May 3rd, 2012, 4:25pm »
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on May 2nd, 2012, 11:01pm, robert wrote:
to Bobby Bare
 
re:  Actually it is being doubted today
 
Real figures are between 11 and 12 million total of which 6 million were Jews.  Over a 3+ year period, not a few months.   The 5+ million that were not Jews, were Catholic priests, gypsies, political opponents, lesbnians, homosexuals, children with birth defects, and other groups.    
 
Topic is a bit painful for me, since I personally lost  
grandparents, aunt, uncle, 1st cousins, and a lot of extended family (ie: Brother/sisters/parents of non blood relatives), and many 2nd/3rd cousins and their families.  
 
Lets move onto another topic, OK.

 
Robet, I agree with you that this is a sad subject to mention or discuss, and is outside the scope of this forum, which is why I posted to say that this discussion was  going off-topic.
I know that MW mentioned it as an example, and I commented about it, but I also pointed out that this was off-topic, or to accomodate MW's reply, that it was being stretched too far out.
Which is  also why I asked that we go back to the main subject.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #83 on: May 5th, 2012, 12:07am »
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on May 3rd, 2012, 4:25pm, BobbyBare wrote:

 
Robet, I agree with you that this is a sad subject to mention or discuss, and is outside the scope of this forum, which is why I posted to say that this discussion was  going off-topic.
I know that MW mentioned it as an example, and I commented about it, but I also pointed out that this was off-topic, or to accomodate MW's reply, that it was being stretched too far out.
Which is  also why I asked that we go back to the main subject.

 
Then why not simply go back on topic and leave it alone?
 
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #84 on: May 5th, 2012, 6:43am »
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on May 5th, 2012, 12:07am, MW wrote:

 
Then why not simply go back on topic and leave it alone?
 
Cheers,
MW

 
I was simply giving an explanatioon to Robert about how the subject came up. Did not even comment about it, or comment on his comments about it, to let the subjetct go.
Now back to the main subject. What was it all about anyway?  It seems to have deviated so far out that  we need someone to surmise about the case in question. This is what a law court woul do.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #85 on: May 6th, 2012, 11:26pm »
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on May 5th, 2012, 6:43am, BobbyBare wrote:

 
I was simply giving an explanatioon to Robert about how the subject came up. Did not even comment about it, or comment on his comments about it, to let the subjetct go.
Now back to the main subject. What was it all about anyway?  It seems to have deviated so far out that  we need someone to surmise about the case in question. This is what a law court woul do.

 
It's not about me, BB.  You seem to be obsessed with arguing with me.
 
The issue was the use of tautologies in argument.  You can't justify something by repeating it.  It's that simple.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #86 on: May 7th, 2012, 5:51am »
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MW, I am not "obsessed" with arguing with you by any means. I was just answering your posts adressed to me. In a friendly way as much as possible, I don't think there are any issues berween us.
I only intervene and comment when there is an interesting issue, as happenedd in the last case.There was certainly nothing personal about it.
Of course this is a free forum and one can say anything, as long as he doesn't insult anyone.
I have respect for your opinions, even though we may not agree sometimes. I especially like your sense of humor in some of your posts..Smiley
I know you were dicussing and arguing about "tautologies" with   Lazarus, so I will let you go on with it.
I only asked about what is the connection between "tautology" and the main subject, which has been forgotten what it's all about anyway. So pardon my intervention concerning your tautology about Jews. Smiley
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #87 on: May 9th, 2012, 12:26am »
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BobbyBare:
 
I was curious about the meaning of the word "tautology".  You said they are illogical and have no validity.  Aren't they just the opposite, very logical and always valid but obvious, e.g., Ed is either dead of alive?  
 
In your example you used reasoning that was clearly circular about a concentration camp.  Essentialy Jews would not be in concentration camps if they didn't deserve to be.  In other words, the statement assumes the very fact in dispute.  My question to you would be whether any circular reasoning aka begging the question, would alwas be a tautology.  Example:  when I was a member of the Lions Club the president went to a convention in Taiwan where he voted on the issue of whether to include women as members.  He said yes and asked, why not.  The member who asked the original question responded, "because it is a men's club."  The statement "because it is a men's club" begs the question because it assumes the very issue in dispute.  The issue was whether to continue Lions Club as men's clubs.  My question to you is, is every example of circular reasoning also a tautology?  Is the statement "abortion is murder" a tautology becuase it assumes the issue in dispute, whether the foetus is alive.  This is not a rhetorical question.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #88 on: May 9th, 2012, 11:00pm »
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on May 9th, 2012, 12:26am, Youngren wrote:
BobbyBare:
 
I was curious about the meaning of the word "tautology".  You said they are illogical and have no validity.  Aren't they just the opposite, very logical and always valid but obvious, e.g., Ed is either dead of alive?  
 
In your example you used reasoning that was clearly circular about a concentration camp.  Essentialy Jews would not be in concentration camps if they didn't deserve to be.  In other words, the statement assumes the very fact in dispute.  My question to you would be whether any circular reasoning aka begging the question, would alwas be a tautology.  Example:  when I was a member of the Lions Club the president went to a convention in Taiwan where he voted on the issue of whether to include women as members.  He said yes and asked, why not.  The member who asked the original question responded, "because it is a men's club."  The statement "because it is a men's club" begs the question because it assumes the very issue in dispute.  The issue was whether to continue Lions Club as men's clubs.  My question to you is, is every example of circular reasoning also a tautology?  Is the statement "abortion is murder" a tautology becuase it assumes the issue in dispute, whether the foetus is alive.  This is not a rhetorical question.

 
Hi Youngren,
 
In fairness to BobbyBare, I think your question was directed to me.  A tautology is a self-referential, three-part statement.  Of course the tautology is circular reasoning, and irrational because it assumes the issue in dispute.
 
It is this:
 
Abortion is murder.
Why is abortion murder?
Because abortion murders.
 
I don't know if all examples of circular reasoning are tautologies, but I do know that all tautologies are examples of circular reasioning.  
 
I prefer the term 'self-referential.'  An obvous example is thus:
 
I can lift myself up by my boot straps.
How does that lift you up?
Because if I lift on my boot straps, my boots will always come off of the floor.
 
That's the ultimate tautology.  Of course it is flawed in the premise.  But so are all tautologies.  It is self-referential, because your boot straps are connected to you.  You cannot use your own power to lift yourself up by your boot straps.  You need an outside source of power.
 
Likewise, an argument needs an outside source of definition...and persuasion.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #89 on: May 10th, 2012, 4:47pm »
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Act A is a “crime”. A person, let's call him Person X, who commits act A commits a “crime”, because act A is a “crime”. Thus, person X is a “criminal”. He has committed a “crime” (because act A is a “crime”) and is thus a “criminal”, the definition of “criminal” being “someone who commits a 'crime'”. Now, if act A had not been a “crime” person X would not be a “criminal”. If act A is not a “crime” it follows that committing it doesn't make Person X a “criminal”.
 
Good. Now, the question is this: Will an act that is considered harmful (by society – not by law, as such, but by “society”, i.e. a consensus which underlies what is commonly referred to as mores, “cultural values” or any such term), and which is a “crime”, according to the letter of the law, cease to exist if it ceases to be a “crime”? In all likelihood not. The very pragmatic reason why the act of stealing is a crime is not that it “is a crime” (tautology). The pragmatic reason, rather, is that experience and common sense both indicate (and more than indicate) that individuals are prone to steal. And, furthermore, that stealing is harmful – both to individuals and to society at large. You may claim that the act itself is only a crime because it's defined as a “crime” by a law which is, in itself, always something more or less contingent, but that doesn't magically eradicate the underlying precondition, namely that stealing IS considered harmful (both to individuals and to society at large).
 
If I beat you on the head with a baseball bat, I may get thrown in jail for this act. If beating someone on the head with a baseball bat had not been a crime, however, I could do it with impunity. Obviously. You'd still get a headache, though.
 
And MW's Nazi argument doesn't hold water. The Nazi's reasoning cannot be written off as tautological. The Jews were incarcerated because they were considered harmful – in one way or another. As were homosexuals, people with disabilities, Jehova's witnesses, gipsies, and several other groups of people. They stood in the way of something – were detrimental to society's progress. You may accuse the Nazis of many things – but founding their grotesque, ignorant, barbaric purge on a logical fallacy ain't one of them.  
 
And, oh – can't help but smiling sadly at the fact that yet another thread has proven Godwin right...
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #90 on: May 10th, 2012, 7:51pm »
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MW,
Thanks for intervening, because I was going to point out to Youngren  that it wasn't me who  was using tautologies, and that I didn't use the arguments he was quoting me as saying.
Although he made some relevant and interesting questios.
 
According to Wikipedia, tautology means "Rhetoric using different words to say the same thing."
So it is not exactly giving an example of something different to clarify something else, as is probably more the case here.
The philosopher Wittgenstein formulated Tautology as meaning propositional logic.
But since we are talking about crime and law here, and since you define tautology as circular reasoning, there is the classic example of the man who stood in the witnesss box in court, and was asked by the court where he lived.
The man answered "Next to my aunt Mary's house,"
Court "And where is your Aunt Mary's house?
Man "Next to my house."
Court "In which street is your house?"
Man "In the same street where Aunt Mary and uncle Ben lives."
And so the conversation went on without coming to any conclusion.
Also tautology can be used to take a subject off-topic by directing it towards something else.
I will try and answer Youngren's question about abortion and murder in another post.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #91 on: May 10th, 2012, 10:30pm »
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Well, it doesn't really matter what you call it. There are multiple possible definitions of “tautology”: Rhetorical, philosophical, logical. Never mind that. What MW refers to is something close to “circular reasoning”, though. What he initially said, as I took it, was that a “sexual predator” is a legal concept which wouldn't exist if the law (which effectively labels certain individuals as sexual predators) didn't exist. I then agreed that this is the case, but only in a strictly formal, or nominal sense: If there was no law against screwing 13 year old girls, then there would be no “sexual predators” in the legal sense, because the act wouldn't be illegal. Fine and dandy. Unless you believe that screwing 13 year old girls is potentially very harmful. To the girls. And, ultimately, to society at large. And the latter belief is the reason why there is, in fact, a law against precisely this act.
 
Any act which is a crime, according to the law, is a “crime” only because said law declares it to be so. That might be mildly amusing to a pedant. But it can't be used as an argument against a law: It's a generic and absurdly abstract argument. You may argue against a law which makes certain people “sexual predators” on all kinds of grounds – but the tautology angle isn't one of them. As I've tried to suggest, you may as well argue that people who kill other people for no damn reason, only exist because there's a law against “homicide”.
 
PS Not an attack on anybody's viewpoint - just stating my own, which is, I'm sure, full enough of holes:
 
To sum this up, from where I'm sitting: You may argue that having sex with a minor is not harmful, or not harmful enough, neither to individuals nor society at large, to warrant a law against it. That's fair enough – many will disagree with you, but it's not a perfectly unreasonable point of view, given that the term “minor” is clearly contingent and subject to constant scrutiny. What you may NOT argue, however (in my humble opinion – and I'm not an expert), is that this law is founded on some logical fallacy. It clearly ain't. The tautologies or instances of circular reasoning which have been put forth in this thread are just that – circular reasoning, I agree one hundred percent. And if this had been the reasoning underlying the law, then MW would have a point. But it's not – so he doesn't have much of a point. What's underlying the law is experience, common sense, medical science, cultural mores – pick your poison. And all of this is highly debatable – naturally. Which is why all laws should be, and indeed are, revised from time to time.  
 
We have, by the way, strayed a fair ways off the original topic - but what the hell.
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #92 on: May 12th, 2012, 11:13pm »
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MW said "I don't know if all examples of circular reasoning are tautologies, but I do know that all tautologies are examples of circular reasioning."
 
Good thinking!  If that is true, and I think it is, it would mean than logically a tautology is a subset of circular reasoning.  I suspect that a tautology is circular reason taken to the extreme where the circularity becomes ridiculous e.g. (one used on me recently) the golf ball is either in the hole or not!
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #93 on: May 13th, 2012, 11:35am »
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on Apr 1st, 2012, 2:00pm, leo_c wrote:
 The double standard that a lot bemoan on this site has been around since time began and will remain so, get use to it.

 
The double standard was fine when it went both ways.
 
But it doesn't anymore.  Feminists want equality only when it benefits them.  If you want to say that 25 year old teachers shouldn't be prosecuted for having sex with 17 year old males, but 25 year old males should be prosecuted for having sex with 17 females because males and females are different, then you can't turn around and say that women should be given preferential treatment in other areas to make thing "equal".  There should be no women cops, firemen, or soldiers because they can't compete with men.  But that's not what happens.  Women want the advantage wherever they can get it and lie and twist the legal system to get it.  And so do other protected politically correct groups like blacks and gays.
 
 
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #94 on: May 13th, 2012, 3:09pm »
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Lazarus,
 
I must disagree with you and MW concerning "sexual predators".
You said that you agreed with MW that a "sexual predator is a legal concept".  
The concept of a sexual predator does not exist under any legal definition.  The law only defines a crime committed, not a potential criminal. In effect we are all potential criminals, and we come under the penalty of the law only when we commit the actual crime.
Actually, your disagreement with MW, and sometimes mine, is not that MW is guilty of circular reasoning, which in my opinion  he isn't, but that he often uses iirrelevant or false comparasins. Which also often takes a subject completey off-topic,  as is happening here.
To be fair, maybe we are all guilty of this sometime or the other, but it's not such a serious criime, since this is a light-hearted diiscussion anyway.  
Like you, I don't mind  the discussion veering into the philosophical, which is a favorite subject of mine anyway. Roll Eyes
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Re: CFNM NEWS (OT): Woman Charged With Sexual Assa
« Reply #95 on: May 18th, 2012, 11:01pm »
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on May 13th, 2012, 3:09pm, BobbyBare wrote:
Lazarus,
 
I must disagree with you and MW concerning "sexual predators".
You said that you agreed with MW that a "sexual predator is a legal concept".  
The concept of a sexual predator does not exist under any legal definition.  The law only defines a crime committed, not a potential criminal. In effect we are all potential criminals, and we come under the penalty of the law only when we commit the actual crime.
Actually, your disagreement with MW, and sometimes mine, is not that MW is guilty of circular reasoning, which in my opinion  he isn't, but that he often uses iirrelevant or false comparasins. Which also often takes a subject completey off-topic,  as is happening here.
To be fair, maybe we are all guilty of this sometime or the other, but it's not such a serious criime, since this is a light-hearted diiscussion anyway.  
Like you, I don't mind  the discussion veering into the philosophical, which is a favorite subject of mine anyway. Roll Eyes

 
Damn, you guys are good on the philosophical level.  Soz I haven't been her for a while.  I've been busy with another fourm and trying to pull it up.
 
I think Laz has caught my meaning on the head.  BB, I think you are seeing the same thing, but you are questioning my examples, not my logic.
 
I admit I am guilty of using "stretched" examples.  But how better to bring a point home but to stretch the thinking?  I could bore you with an example that is only an n'th degree off the point, but wouldn't that just bore you.  I mean, how could I show you what 'red' looks like if I can't show you 'yellow'?  My examples attempt to contrast, the better to show you what I am saying.
 
I submit I am not off-point, so much as I am trying to express where my point is going.  Using drastic examples pulls you in the right direction, without any confusion over minutia.
 
Laz has me correctly.  Sexual predators do not exist until the law defines them as such.  Until then, you've got to resort to something besides the law to try to define a sexual predator.
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CFNM - Clothed Female Naked Male fetish video productions by CFNMzone. Boys just need some training, that's all. And the girls get out their cameras! LINK TO SAMPLES

ADD TO DVD CART: $29.95 DVD - or check out
ADD TO MPEG CART: $19.95 XVID - or check out
CFNMzone
DVD-19
The Gift & Happy Endings
70 minutes
$29.95
CFNM - Clothed Female Naked Male fetish video productions by CFNMzone. When you TAKE something is it still a gift? Why do pool cleaners always get all the fun? LINK TO SAMPLES

ADD TO DVD CART: $29.95 DVD - or check out
ADD TO MPEG CART: $19.95 XVID - or check out
Vrod-100's
The Naked Mile
(Public Nudity)
100 minutes
$29.95
The world's biggest expression of CFNM ever. 8 out of 10 runners were male college students and girls came out in droves to watch this spectacle! Shot with six cameras, with over 1000 runners, this footage has never been seen before. Tightly edited with non-stop action.
vidcap samples
ADD TO DVD CART: $29.95 DVD - or check out
ADD TO MPEG CART: $19.95 XVID - or check out


It's a Naked World! Nude Beaches - Public Nudity
It's a Naked World! Nude Beaches - Public Nudity



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