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   Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
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Bobby Bare
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Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« on: Sep 6th, 2011, 5:21am »
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I don't know if this was posted on this forum before, but is an interesting account of boys taking nude swimming lessons in front of female relatives and their friends in early sixties.
I suppose this is a continuation of the Dear Abbey Nude Swimming Double Standard thread. Which shows that everybody took this double standard for granted in those days, except some of the boys of course.
 
“Do You Recall Me Watching You Swim Naked a Few Years Ago?"
 
I took swimming lessons at our local YMCA from 1961-66. Our classes were grouped by age. The teens beyond the age of 12 or 13 were given some privacy, as observers were discouraged from entering the pool area. I don't think there was actually a formal policy, it was just a prevailing custom that moms, sisters, and others did not go in when the "older boys" were practicing or having classes.
 
I know as a 13-year-old in 8th grade, when girls and moms could still observe us, I was getting quite "developed." I felt VERY EMBARRASSED to see girls in school sitting next to me that had seen me bare the day before at the Y. And well into high school they had good memories. I dated a girl when I was 16 in 11th grade. On our first date she commented, "Do you recall me watching you swim naked a few years ago?" I felt a sense of unfairness and shame over the situation.
 
This particular girl was the sister of another boy on the team. She had a crush on me and relished the chance to go with her mother to our classes. She was a regular spectator from about 6th thru 8th grade. During these years I went thru puberty and she later told me that she kept track of my "size" and pubic hair development. When she told me this we were both 14. She was disappointed that her days of observing me were now over.
 
I have two sisters and one brother. My sisters are one year younger and four years older. I think that I felt most uncomfortable being naked in front of my sister closest my age. She was the one who brought friends to the classes. Sometimes my mom would say "No" or only let her bring one girl. Mom would say something like, "Paul is embarrassed enough without you bringing four friends along. Just let Susan come." The logic being that bringing four friends was pushing the limits of propriety somehow.
 
I didn't much care that my older sister saw me. The age difference for some reason made me less self-conscious with her. Not that I liked it, though, even with her seeing me.
 
I was not usually overtly teased by my female classmates who had seen me naked. The girls tended to giggle among themselves about it. A girl who said too much directly about it to a boy was considered to be “loose” or “easy.” But when a girl would look at me and smile as I got up to give a book report in front of the class, there was no doubt in my mind she was picturing me as I appeared naked the day before at swim class.
 
I recall asking my mom and sister to stop attending my classes when I was 12. I began to feel very uncomfortable being naked around females as puberty set in and so did the other boys. We still had female lifeguards/instructors even up to age 17. I don't think any of us boys really liked the forced nudity, even at younger ages. But it was the way things were done. You just temporarily abandoned modesty if you wanted to swim at the YMCA. I used to feel very embarrassed if a girl in my school classes had seen me swimming naked the day before.
 
My Dad was on our YMCA's board of directors at the time I was taking lessons. He had absolutely no sympathy when I complained about how embarrassing it was being nude in front of sisters, moms, and other females my age. He had experienced the same thing as a boy and, "It didn't hurt me," he used to say. He said, "Concentrate on swimming and forget who is watching." Like I really could forget having perhaps 25 females seeing my penis at ages 11-13. And I did have erections a few times. Just awful if I couldn't get in the water quickly.
 
To me the strangest part of this was the atmosphere of extreme modesty in our house. If I was even caught in the upstairs hallway in my underpants, I was reprimanded. An hour before, I might have been naked in front of Mom & my sister at the Y. But heaven forbid they should see me that way at home. I could never figure out what the difference was? Dad would just say that modesty was more important in the home. Go figure?
 
Some of the other guys in the class talked about it one day and the consensus was that "this sucks, those women shouldn't be allowed to watch us if we have to swim naked at our age." Our only consolation was that in September we would enter 9th grade. For all high school classes the Y locked the observation area and we would not have to be nude in front of all our families.
 
I remember feeling very violated. It was all I could do to hold back tears of shame that she knew all my secrets of puberty. Also resentful of the YMCA for setting us up like that, having no respect for our modesty. The people who ran the Y just didn't "get it" that girls this age would experience a sexual thrill seeing boys their age naked.
 
I wished I could see the girls naked, but that was strictly forbidden. My sister also took lessons at the same Y on a different day, but all girls wore modest one-piece suits. And no guy would dare go in their locker room. Oh, the unfairness of it all, I thought.
 
My brother, the youngest child, endured swimming lessons naked until age 11. He was more rebellious than me and just made an awful fuss about continuing naked after he showed signs of early puberty. Dad even spanked him a few times over it. But he didn't care. "No way am I going bare-assed in front of all those females," he used to say. Finally Dad gave up in disgust. So he didn't face the humiliation in 7th & 8th grades like I did.
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henri
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #1 on: Sep 6th, 2011, 11:33am »
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I really am ond of these kind of stuff, and always the same questions remain, as for instance, did you have an hardon in front of the girls (or one of your classmates) ?
« Last Edit: Sep 6th, 2011, 11:34am by henri » IP Logged
LadyLover
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #2 on: Sep 6th, 2011, 11:52am »
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Bobby, thanks for posting this tale. Sometimes when I read an account like this, I regret my puritanical New England upbringing. It would be nice to be so comfortable around women that even being nude in front of them wouldn’t normally embarrass me.  On the other hand, my sheltered childhood adds spice to even relatively tame situations with women and magnifies my enjoyment of CFNM.
 
Your post reminds me of an almost-CFNM situation I experienced when I was a young teen:
 
At the end of each summer season, our town’s outdoor municipal pool held a public contest. Swim class students competed in various races for prizes in front of an audience of a few dozen parents and other family members. This particular year, I had finished warming up and was sitting on the slanted concrete apron around the pool when I suddenly got an erection.  I’m not sure what got me going. My eyes had probably lingered too long on the feminine curves of a High School lifeguard.
 
Back in the 70s, boys wore bathing trunks which were basically waterproof underpants with a drawstring around the waist. They were tight and left very little to the imagination. On that particular day, I was wearing a light blue swimsuit and was mortified to see, when I glanced down, that my excited cock was pointing up and out. The shape was clearly outlined by the front of my wet trunks!
 
At that moment, the head lifeguard blew her whistle and the shrill note was joined by the other lifeguards.  This was the signal for all boys and girls to get out of the pool so the races could begin. I experienced one of those “Oh shit!” moments that makes a kid wonder, “Why does this always happen to me?” Now that the whistles had blown, if I went back in the cold water to ease my hard-on, I risked being rebuked by a lifeguard. My dad was in the audience, and embarrassing him meant a severe spanking when we got home. Also, the last thing a kid with a raging hard-on wants to do is call attention to themselves!
 
I hid the problem as best as I could by drawing my legs up and nonchalantly crossing my arms over my lap. I was trying to calm myself and relax when I experienced another “Oh shit!” moment: my name was called for the first race. What could I do? I swallowed hard, stood, and walked to the end of the pool while looking straight forward and not making eye contact with anyone. Bent forward at the end of the pool with my hands over my head in the dive position, I felt like every eye was aimed at the bulge in my shorts. What a relief when the starter finally blew the whistle and I jumped into the water!
 
No one ever mentioned my public display. To this day, I still wonder if I could have gotten away with a quick dip in the pool before the races started.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #3 on: Sep 6th, 2011, 4:14pm »
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Great post, Bobby!
 
Boy, the attitude is sure different in this similar situation. Interesting how wide the difference in opinion.  
 
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #4 on: Sep 6th, 2011, 5:59pm »
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What seems to me the more funny in the account of "Bobby bare" at the beguinning of the discussion are the ideas of the father when he was considering that it was not a big deal for his sons to swim naked in a YMCA center being exposed to the view of some women, his mother of course but also his sisters, their girls classmates, the mothers of other boys and so on, while he did not allow his sons to walk naked at home when they were going to the bathroom or even undressed in underwears because fron his point of view, it was not decent to be undressed at home.  
 
So he was prude at home but did not mind about nudity of young boys at the YMCA center for swimming lessons in the nude with spectators.
I presume that it was also because he had known himself that situation when he was young at a YMCA center.
 
Nevertheless I have noticed that if a boy as it was the case for the younger son was really reluctant to swim naked in front of a female audience, he was not forced by his father to do it. So it was possible to refuse that situation at least at 11 or 12 age.
 
I notice also that even if the older son was more obedient and did not dare like his brother to object, he was not forced to swim naked in front of an audience after 13 or 14 age since older boys had more privacy by decision of the YMCA staff. It was better than nothing.  
« Last Edit: Sep 6th, 2011, 6:08pm by easter_man_10 » IP Logged
Bobby Bare
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #5 on: Sep 7th, 2011, 4:17pm »
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LadyLover, I know exactly what you mean. Those speedos, especially of the thin material type  were very revealing, and to get an erection in them was the ultimate embarrassment.
They were so thin material that when they were wet they were almost transparent.  
Of course they were attractive to the girls, who could compare packages and different shapes.  Grin
 
Easterman, I also find it funny that it was considered as normal for boys to swim naked, even in front of female relatives and their friends, but not acceptable at home for the same boys to show themselves naked, or even  in just underwear.
I think that this reasoning was universally acceptable at that time, maybe because the older generation males only knew swimming in the nude, so for them it was natural and normal. But they had to keep modesty and be decently dressed outside of the swimming environment.
Also teen boys up to the age mentioned in this account were still considered as kids, even though they were into puberty, and so it was not considered a big deal by adults if girls and women watched them swimming nude.
Of course it was only considered as a big deal by some of the boys themselves, as the account here says, especially at the older age.
But they could do nothing about it because they had to do what the parents and elders said.
Again this was all to the advantage, and enjoyment, of the girls.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #6 on: Sep 7th, 2011, 6:49pm »
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on Sep 6th, 2011, 5:21am, Bobby_Bare wrote:
I don't know if this was posted on this forum before, but is an interesting account of boys taking nude swimming lessons in front of female relatives and their friends in early sixties.
I suppose this is a continuation of the Dear Abbey Nude Swimming Double Standard thread. Which shows that everybody took this double standard for granted in those days, except some of the boys of course.
 
“Do You Recall Me Watching You Swim Naked a Few Years Ago?"
 
I took swimming lessons at our local YMCA from 1961-66. Our classes were grouped by age. The teens beyond the age of 12 or 13 were given some privacy, as observers were discouraged from entering the pool area. I don't think there was actually a formal policy, it was just a prevailing custom that moms, sisters, and others did not go in when the "older boys" were practicing or having classes.
 
I know as a 13-year-old in 8th grade, when girls and moms could still observe us, I was getting quite "developed." I felt VERY EMBARRASSED to see girls in school sitting next to me that had seen me bare the day before at the Y. And well into high school they had good memories. I dated a girl when I was 16 in 11th grade. On our first date she commented, "Do you recall me watching you swim naked a few years ago?" I felt a sense of unfairness and shame over the situation.
 
This particular girl was the sister of another boy on the team. She had a crush on me and relished the chance to go with her mother to our classes. She was a regular spectator from about 6th thru 8th grade. During these years I went thru puberty and she later told me that she kept track of my "size" and pubic hair development. When she told me this we were both 14. She was disappointed that her days of observing me were now over.
 
I have two sisters and one brother. My sisters are one year younger and four years older. I think that I felt most uncomfortable being naked in front of my sister closest my age. She was the one who brought friends to the classes. Sometimes my mom would say "No" or only let her bring one girl. Mom would say something like, "Paul is embarrassed enough without you bringing four friends along. Just let Susan come." The logic being that bringing four friends was pushing the limits of propriety somehow.
 
I didn't much care that my older sister saw me. The age difference for some reason made me less self-conscious with her. Not that I liked it, though, even with her seeing me.
 
I was not usually overtly teased by my female classmates who had seen me naked. The girls tended to giggle among themselves about it. A girl who said too much directly about it to a boy was considered to be “loose” or “easy.” But when a girl would look at me and smile as I got up to give a book report in front of the class, there was no doubt in my mind she was picturing me as I appeared naked the day before at swim class.
 
I recall asking my mom and sister to stop attending my classes when I was 12. I began to feel very uncomfortable being naked around females as puberty set in and so did the other boys. We still had female lifeguards/instructors even up to age 17. I don't think any of us boys really liked the forced nudity, even at younger ages. But it was the way things were done. You just temporarily abandoned modesty if you wanted to swim at the YMCA. I used to feel very embarrassed if a girl in my school classes had seen me swimming naked the day before.
 
My Dad was on our YMCA's board of directors at the time I was taking lessons. He had absolutely no sympathy when I complained about how embarrassing it was being nude in front of sisters, moms, and other females my age. He had experienced the same thing as a boy and, "It didn't hurt me," he used to say. He said, "Concentrate on swimming and forget who is watching." Like I really could forget having perhaps 25 females seeing my penis at ages 11-13. And I did have erections a few times. Just awful if I couldn't get in the water quickly.
 
To me the strangest part of this was the atmosphere of extreme modesty in our house. If I was even caught in the upstairs hallway in my underpants, I was reprimanded. An hour before, I might have been naked in front of Mom & my sister at the Y. But heaven forbid they should see me that way at home. I could never figure out what the difference was? Dad would just say that modesty was more important in the home. Go figure?
 
Some of the other guys in the class talked about it one day and the consensus was that "this sucks, those women shouldn't be allowed to watch us if we have to swim naked at our age." Our only consolation was that in September we would enter 9th grade. For all high school classes the Y locked the observation area and we would not have to be nude in front of all our families.
 
I remember feeling very violated. It was all I could do to hold back tears of shame that she knew all my secrets of puberty. Also resentful of the YMCA for setting us up like that, having no respect for our modesty. The people who ran the Y just didn't "get it" that girls this age would experience a sexual thrill seeing boys their age naked.
 
I wished I could see the girls naked, but that was strictly forbidden. My sister also took lessons at the same Y on a different day, but all girls wore modest one-piece suits. And no guy would dare go in their locker room. Oh, the unfairness of it all, I thought.
 
My brother, the youngest child, endured swimming lessons naked until age 11. He was more rebellious than me and just made an awful fuss about continuing naked after he showed signs of early puberty. Dad even spanked him a few times over it. But he didn't care. "No way am I going bare-assed in front of all those females," he used to say. Finally Dad gave up in disgust. So he didn't face the humiliation in 7th & 8th grades like I did.

 
Bobby,
I don't know who wrote this story but I highly suspect it isn't completely true because there is one glaring mistake in it.
Although, I have never personally experienced a situation at a YMCA where females watched males swim naked, I am willing to consider the doubtful possibility that this existed years ago.  In the story, there is, as previously mentioned a mistake that is invalidated by substantiated history.  
 
I quote from the post:
 
"My sister also took lessons at the same Y on a different day, but all girls wore modest one-piece suits."
 
It was a matter of YMCA policy that females never exercised at a YMCA and this included swimming.  YMCA's were for males only.  Females went to the YWCA.  Everywhere a YMCA was built, a YWCA was built somewhere nearby (usually within a couple of city blocks).  This was their policy years ago and everywhere I went in those years this always held true.  It was a matter of common knowledge.  Historically speaking, at no point would the YMCA interrupt the swimming of the males so that females could swim at the YMCA because, in fact, in every city where there was a YMCA, there was also a YWCA where there was a swimming pool and every other type of exercise equipment similar to those found at a YMCA.  Consequently, why would females swim at a YMCA?
« Last Edit: Sep 8th, 2011, 2:10pm by HowlingDawg » IP Logged
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #7 on: Sep 7th, 2011, 11:01pm »
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Quote:
It was a matter of YMCA policy that females never exercised at a YMCA and this included swimming.  YMCA's were for males only.  Females went to the YWCA.  Everywhere a YMCA was built, a YWCA was built somewhere nearby (usually within a couple of city blocks).  This was their policy years ago and everywhere I went in those years this always held true.  It was a matter of common knowledge.  Historically speaking, at no point would the YMCA interrupt the swimming of the males so that females could swim at the YMCA because, in fact, in every city and town where there was a YMCA, there was also a YWCA where there was a swimming pool and every other type of exercise equipment similar to those found at a YMCA.  Consequently, why would females swim at a YMCA?

We used to get this a lot more, the generalization from a poster's own experience to universal truth, and the invocation of "common knowledge" rather than a specific citation.  
 
Citations are easier now that so much more is on the Internet.  
 
However on this specifically, it is Not True. YMCAs and YMCAs are not salt and pepper shakers, nor were they built by a mysterious Them. Some places had one, some another, but their construction was not coordinated. YMCAs were locally financed and managed under the umbrella of the National Council, and the YWCAs were a separate organization, with stronger national control.  
 
One reliable poster here has often stated that he did have nude classes with a woman instructor, but at the YWCA.  
 
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #8 on: Sep 8th, 2011, 2:46am »
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on Sep 7th, 2011, 6:49pm, HowlingDawg wrote:

 
Bobby,
I don't know who wrote this story but I highly suspect it isn't completely true because there is one glaring mistake in it.
Although, I have never personally experienced a situation at a YMCA where females watched males swim naked, I am willing to consider the doubtful possibility that this existed years ago.  In the story, there is, as previously mentioned a mistake that is invalidated by substantiated history.  
 
I quote from the post:
 
"My sister also took lessons at the same Y on a different day, but all girls wore modest one-piece suits."
 
It was a matter of YMCA policy that females never exercised at a YMCA and this included swimming.  YMCA's were for males only.  Females went to the YWCA.  Everywhere a YMCA was built, a YWCA was built somewhere nearby (usually within a couple of city blocks).  This was their policy years ago and everywhere I went in those years this always held true.  It was a matter of common knowledge.  Historically speaking, at no point would the YMCA interrupt the swimming of the males so that females could swim at the YMCA because, in fact, in every city and town where there was a YMCA, there was also a YWCA where there was a swimming pool and every other type of exercise equipment similar to those found at a YMCA.  Consequently, why would females swim at a YMCA?

 
HDawg, I think you are wrong. There were many places which had only a YMCA, and no YWCA.
In fact from what I gather there were very few YW's compared to YM's.
I think there were arrangements for different classes at many YMCA's, including separate classes for juniors, as in this account, especially if they were learners. So it would have been possible that there were also separate classes and set times for females where there were no YWCA's.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #9 on: Sep 8th, 2011, 3:25am »
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"Bobby Bare" :  
 in one of your last message, you said something which is contradictory with the story itself.
 
I quote you :" Also teen boys up to the age mentioned in this account were still considered as kids, even though they were into puberty, and so it was not considered a big deal by adults if girls and women watched them swimming nude"  
 
"Of course it was only considered as a big deal by some of the boys themselves, as the account here says, especially at the older age.
But they could do nothing about it because they had to do what the parents and elders said.
Again this was all to the advantage, and enjoyment, of the girls".
 
You are right with the first part of your comment but not the second,  it is not exact to say that the boys  could do nothing, we have the instance of the younger son who refused to continue to have swimming lessons in the nude after 11age if I rememberr well and he succeeded in his refusal, his father did not force him!
 
so at least in this story, a reluctant boy could object with sucess! girls could only take advantage on boys who were too obedient to their parents.
 
I must say that I am surprised that the father was so less authoritarian with his son, at that time, it was not so common in families but it is related in the story!
 
I want to add that the comment of "Howling Dawg" seems to me a little convincing  because I have read often that the YMCA centers were until the last 60's devoted only to swimming lessons for boys and men, the girls might go elsewhere to learn swimming.  
 
true or not?
 
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #10 on: Sep 8th, 2011, 4:37am »
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on Sep 7th, 2011, 11:01pm, Caipora wrote:

We used to get this a lot more, the generalization from a poster's own experience to universal truth, and the invocation of "common knowledge" rather than a specific citation.  
 
Citations are easier now that so much more is on the Internet.  
 
However on this specifically, it is Not True. YMCAs and YMCAs are not salt and pepper shakers, nor were they built by a mysterious Them. Some places had one, some another, but their construction was not coordinated. YMCAs were locally financed and managed under the umbrella of the National Council, and the YWCAs were a separate organization, with stronger national control.  
 
One reliable poster here has often stated that he did have nude classes with a woman instructor, but at the YWCA.  
 
 - Caipora

 
When I wrote my previous post, I left out some information because I was called away.  I thought I would be able to edit the post before anyone saw it because I was under the impression I would be away from my desk for only a minute or two.  As it turned out, I was away from my desk for several hours.  
In your correction of my statement, you are thinking of the way that YMCA's are today in that many of them are located in suburban areas.  This was not the case in the 1960's and before.  Back then, most YMCA's were located in central business districts.  And, from my experience there was a YWCA somewhere nearby.  I never stated this was a "universal truth", I meant to indicate I was basing what I wrote on my personal experience.  If I didn't convey that clearly, I apologize for the misunderstanding.  
Prior to 1976, my personal experience included trips to several cities where a friend of mine and I stayed in YMCA Hotels.  To the best of my memory, in each place there was also a YWCA not far away.  These trips happened over the span of about 5 years.  
I never said that what the author wrote wasn't real.  I said that I doubt what was written based on my experiences.  From those experiences, in any YMCA I was ever in the following statements were consistently true:
Females were not allowed to go beyond the YMCA lobby;
Females were not allowed to exercise at a YMCA;
To access the pool, it was necessary to go through either the locker room or the shower room or both.  There was never any access to the pool except by way of those routes.  There was no access to the pool area from the immediate outside;
Males were never made to allow women to swim in the YMCA pool unless it was a "Family YMCA".  The first family YMCA I saw was in the New York area in the early 1970's.  In the mid to late 1960's and before, there were no "Family YMCA's" to my knowledge.  
Here is a list of YMCA's I patronized between 1971 and 1976.  At each of the following YMCA's, what I've written above was correct:
 
The San Francisco YMCA;
The MacArthur Park YMCA, L.A., California;
The Glendale YMCA, Glendale, California;
The Hollywood YMCA, Hollywood, California;
The YMCA aka "Military YMCA", San Diego, California;
The Seattle YMCA, Seattle, Washington (downtown area);
The YMCA, Denver Colorado (downtown area);
The YMCA, Omaha, Nebraska (downtown area);
The YMCA, New Orleans, Louisiana;  
The YMCA, Chicago, Illinois;
The YMCA, Kansas City, Missouri (downtown area);
The YMCA, Kansas City, Kansas (downtown area);
The YMCA, Starkville, Mississippi (downtown area);
The YMCA, Buffalo, New York (downtown area);
The YMCA, Manhattan, New York;  
 
In each of these places I either swam in their pools or used exercise facilities.  In some of these places I stayed in the YMCA Hotel for as much as 4 nights.  I stayed only 1 or 2 nights in some of them.  I don't remember ever seeing any sign indicating the possibility of females using the facilities in those days at any of these places.  As mentioned previously, my visits to these places happened intermittently over the span of 5 years.  A friend of mine and I "backpacked" as we "hitch hiked", road buses and trains across the country between late March and early November of each year.  There's actually a CFNM story that happened during one of those trips but I'll save that for another post.  
 
I never meant to indicate that what the author of the story posted by Bobby Bare wasn't real.  I did, however, intend to say that what the author wrote was not in the realm of my experiences at YMCA's and those experiences were rather extensive.  
 
Prior to the mid 1970's I never heard of a female patronizing a YMCA unless the YMCA was a "Family YMCA" and there weren't very many of those.  Notice I'm not saying this never happened but it was common knowledge that females did not go to YMCA's.  I would be very interested in knowing where this YMCA the author of the story wrote about was located.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #11 on: Sep 8th, 2011, 4:43am »
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on Sep 8th, 2011, 2:46am, Bobby_Bare wrote:

 
HDawg, I think you are wrong. There were many places which had only a YMCA, and no YWCA.
In fact from what I gather there were very few YW's compared to YM's.
I think there were arrangements for different classes at many YMCA's, including separate classes for juniors, as in this account, especially if they were learners. So it would have been possible that there were also separate classes and set times for females where there were no YWCA's.

 
Bobby,
Keep in mind that we are talking about 40 to 50 years ago.  Some (if not many) of those buildings have been torn down.  Actually back in the early 1970's and before, in my experience, there was one YWCA located near most of the places I went where there were centrally located YMCA's.  Unfortunately, prior to the 1960's most women didn't use them from my experience.  
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #12 on: Sep 8th, 2011, 9:44am »
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HDawg,
All the Y's that you mention are in big cities, where it is obvious that there would be female Y's as well as male Y's.
But this was not the case with small towns, where it was more likely that one would only find one Y,  so the females had to make use of the pool at set times for them.
In fact there were many places where there were no Y's at all.
So Caipora is right when he says that you are making a generalization, or sweeping statement, from your limited knowledge.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #13 on: Sep 8th, 2011, 10:05am »
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on Sep 7th, 2011, 11:01pm, Caipora wrote:

We used to get this a lot more, the generalization from a poster's own experience to universal truth, and the invocation of "common knowledge" rather than a specific citation.  
 
Citations are easier now that so much more is on the Internet.  
 
However on this specifically, it is Not True. YMCAs and YMCAs are not salt and pepper shakers, nor were they built by a mysterious Them. Some places had one, some another, but their construction was not coordinated. YMCAs were locally financed and managed under the umbrella of the National Council, and the YWCAs were a separate organization, with stronger national control.  
 
One reliable poster here has often stated that he did have nude classes with a woman instructor, but at the YWCA.  
 
 - Caipora

 
I have also seen and heard several accounts where boys did learn to swim at YWCA's. It is strange, or funny, that even though the women's Y had no nudity rule the boys who took the swimming lessons there had to be nude.  
Of course this was done with femle instructors, and no surprise that mothers and other females would be watching the progress of the boys during their classes.
There were several reasons why young boys took swimming lessons by female instructors and in a female environment, both as in the account above and also at the women's Y.  But I will go into that in another post.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #14 on: Sep 8th, 2011, 10:31am »
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on Sep 8th, 2011, 3:25am, easter_man_10 wrote:
"Bobby Bare" :  
 in one of your last message, you said something which is contradictory with the story itself.
 
I quote you :" Also teen boys up to the age mentioned in this account were still considered as kids, even though they were into puberty, and so it was not considered a big deal by adults if girls and women watched them swimming nude"  
 
"Of course it was only considered as a big deal by some of the boys themselves, as the account here says, especially at the older age.
But they could do nothing about it because they had to do what the parents and elders said.
Again this was all to the advantage, and enjoyment, of the girls".
 
You are right with the first part of your comment but not the second,  it is not exact to say that the boys  could do nothing, we have the instance of the younger son who refused to continue to have swimming lessons in the nude after 11age if I rememberr well and he succeeded in his refusal, his father did not force him!
 
so at least in this story, a reluctant boy could object with sucess! girls could only take advantage on boys who were too obedient to their parents.
 
I must say that I am surprised that the father was so less authoritarian with his son, at that time, it was not so common in families but it is related in the story!
 
I want to add that the comment of "Howling Dawg" seems to me a little convincing  because I have read often that the YMCA centers were until the last 60's devoted only to swimming lessons for boys and men, the girls might go elsewhere to learn swimming.  
 
true or not?
 
 

 
Easterman,
  There is no contradiction at all.  The younger boy was spared the nudity embarrassment in front of females because his father decided so.  
 
In fact it is you who is being contradictory here by saying that the boys could refuse to participate all by themselves, and at the same time saying that you are surprised that the father allowed it for the younger boy.
 
So there is no contradiction in the account, or what I have said, that the boys had no choice. They had to do what their parents, or authorities told them to do.  
It was the same about the compulsary nudity for swimming for boys at High Schools or at the Y's. They simply could not refuse, even though many did not like it.
 
As for your last question, I have commented about it in my previous posts.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #15 on: Sep 8th, 2011, 2:04pm »
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on Sep 8th, 2011, 9:44am, Bobby_Bare wrote:
HDawg,
All the Y's that you mention are in big cities, where it is obvious that there would be female Y's as well as male Y's.
But this was not the case with small towns, where it was more likely that one would only find one Y,  so the females had to make use of the pool at set times for them.
In fact there were many places where there were no Y's at all.
So Caipora is right when he says that you are making a generalization, or sweeping statement, from your limited knowledge.

 
Bobby,
Actually, back in the early 1970's because of my travels, I was in several small towns and you're right in that most of them did not have YMCA's or YWCA's.  That was one of my points.  Back then, YMCA's were usually located in cities and more specifically in the central part of those cities.  It was unusual to find a YMCA in a rural area, a "satellite community", a suburb or a small or even medium size town (by population).  The only YMCA I remember seeing in a smaller populated area was in Glendale, California which, back then was probably a medium size town (by population) and it is right next to L.A. so it is thought of as a part of L.A..  
 
I was not really making a "sweeping statement" because I tried to make it clear that my opinion was based solely on my own experience and observations during those years.  It could very well be that there are YMCA's located somewhere that are as described by the author in his stories.  All I'm saying is that I have never encountered them.  At no time have I ever said what the author wrote didn't happen and I would not say that.  
 
One question: What was the reason, according to your understanding, swimming instructions were given to boys at a YWCA instead of a YMCA?  This is something else I've never experienced.  
 
Incidentally, I forgot to add to my list above Boston, Mass., St. Louis, MO., and Philadelphia, Penn..  
 
In addition, in 1966, my brother and I went to a YMCA in Little Rock, Arkansas which was, as I think of it, another unusual example of a YMCA in a smaller town.    
« Last Edit: Sep 8th, 2011, 2:16pm by HowlingDawg » IP Logged
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #16 on: Sep 8th, 2011, 10:42pm »
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Howling Dog,  
 
I overreacted to your post. For years we had people posting "Women were never allowed in the YMCA", and it took endless posting of citations from books, magazines, and newspapers before that stopped.  
 
That was tedious, and I'm glad it stopped, and don't want to see it back.  
 
Personal recollections, however, are illuminating, Everyone's experience was a bit different, and memories open up new territory instead of rehashing arguments that have long been settled.  
 
Take a look at the old postings. There are plenty of quotations from books, manuals, and pamphlets explaining the actual reasons, rather than  "woulda, coulda, shoulda" speculations.  
 
As an example, vistors' galleries with separate entrances were American Public Health Association standards to keep dirty street shoes off pool decks. APHA standards also called for boys to swim in the nude.  
 
There are plenty of old newspaper clippings about showing women's hours at the YMCA. The trend towards the suburbs is documented in a YMCA National Council pamphlet from the 1950, predating the population move that the Ys followed.  
 
The YMCA National Council Archives are at the University of Minnesota. I don't recall the location of the YWCA archives, but I believe I've posted that, too.  
 
There are objective answers to a lot of these questions, and they can be found.  
 
The topic shows how standards have changed from one era to another. Trying to guess or justify why decisions were made, from today's perspective, doesn't work. The 1950s were another country.  
 
Looking it up in the library, though, does work. Lots of people have done so and posted their findings, and you would save a lot of speculation checking first.  
 
 - Caipora  
 
 
 
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #17 on: Sep 9th, 2011, 2:48am »
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on Sep 8th, 2011, 10:42pm, Caipora wrote:
Howling Dog,  
 
I overreacted to your post. For years we had people posting "Women were never allowed in the YMCA", and it took endless posting of citations from books, magazines, and newspapers before that stopped.  
 
That was tedious, and I'm glad it stopped, and don't want to see it back.  
 
Personal recollections, however, are illuminating, Everyone's experience was a bit different, and memories open up new territory instead of rehashing arguments that have long been settled.  
 
Take a look at the old postings. There are plenty of quotations from books, manuals, and pamphlets explaining the actual reasons, rather than  "woulda, coulda, shoulda" speculations.  
 
As an example, vistors' galleries with separate entrances were American Public Health Association standards to keep dirty street shoes off pool decks. APHA standards also called for boys to swim in the nude.  
 
There are plenty of old newspaper clippings about showing women's hours at the YMCA. The trend towards the suburbs is documented in a YMCA National Council pamphlet from the 1950, predating the population move that the Ys followed.  
 
The YMCA National Council Archives are at the University of Minnesota. I don't recall the location of the YWCA archives, but I believe I've posted that, too.  
 
There are objective answers to a lot of these questions, and they can be found.  
 
The topic shows how standards have changed from one era to another. Trying to guess or justify why decisions were made, from today's perspective, doesn't work. The 1950s were another country.  
 
Looking it up in the library, though, does work. Lots of people have done so and posted their findings, and you would save a lot of speculation checking first.  
 
 - Caipora  
 
 
 
 

 
Caipora,
All things considered, there is only one place where I find myself in disagreement with your post.  The 1950's were not another country.  The 1950's were another universe!
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #18 on: Sep 9th, 2011, 6:17am »
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to "Bobby Bare"  
 
I think that you are wrong by telling me that it was me who is doing a contradictory comment about the attitude of the father and the younger son.  
 
I am not an obstinate man but I am sure that I am right on the point that I have underlined.
 
Read again as I did the relation at the beguinninbg of this discussion.
 
It is clear that the father being  a member of the board of the YMCA, knew perfectly well how things were organized and that he was completely in agreement with the rule, not uncommun indeed, of the boys swimming lessons in the nude with women and girls as spectators at least until high school, when entering the 9th grade.  
 
So it is understandable that he did not take in account the complaints of his older son when he tried to explain that he was too much embarrassed to be swimming naked in front of female observers including girls classmates after 12 age.
 
And he had first the same attitude with his younger boy and he refused to listen to himwhen he told that he did not want to go again on the YMCA  center for swimming lessons because he did not want to be seen naked by women and girls at 12 age.
 
As he was a strict man, his first reaction was to reprimand the boy and to spank him but it was not enough to convince him to obey so eventually the father left his younger son do as he wanted, so it means that if a boy was more rebellious and lesss obedient, he could obtain to avoid to these swimming lessons in the nude.
 
But it was not really a decision of the father even if if course nothing was possible without his agreement.
 
So it was a counter-exemple about what we are many to think, that in the past boys were always force to obey to what adults, parents or teachers, wanted that they did !  
 
When you said that " So there is no contradiction in the account, or what I have said, that the boys had no choice. They had to do what their parents, or authorities told them to do.  
It was the same about the compulsary nudity for swimming for boys at High Schools or at the Y's. They simply could not refuse, even though many did not like it", it was not true competely in that relation .
 
Besides, in that relation, it was not said what was the opinion of the mother?  
 
« Last Edit: Sep 9th, 2011, 10:29am by easter_man_10 » IP Logged
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #19 on: Sep 10th, 2011, 2:30am »
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This topic always reminds me of my swimming lessons back in 1971, when I was in 7th grade (12 yrs old).
 
Both PE and swimming were strictly segregated, with the boys gym and girls gym on opposite sides of the building, and the swimming pool in the center.  Boys and girls got swimming lessons on alternate Wednesdays, boys one week, girls the next.
 
Nude swimming was the rule for us boys, but the girls wore standard one piece tanksuits.
 
Although there was never any mixing of boys and girls in the pool, it was not unusual for the girls gym teacher to visit the pool and/or shower area while we were swimming or showering, ostensibly for some urgent business with our coach.
This wasn't as exciting as it could have been, for she was much older, and resembled an eastern european olympic weightlifter.
 
When I complained to my dad about the apparent unfairness of us boys having to swim naked while the girls got to wear suits, he replied, "You got it backwards, son ... you guys GET to go skinny dippin', while those girls HAVE to wear those ugly, tight, uncomfortable suits."
 
That comment from my dad seemed to change my attitude forever.
 
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #20 on: Sep 10th, 2011, 5:54am »
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Unlike Easterman, I don't find anything unusual in the comment that the poster's father didn't have a problem with his son being seen by his daughters at the Y, but not at home.  
Just my opinion but it seems logical if you look at the fact that in a public setting, away from the possibility of direct contact there would be less chance of an incestual encounter than if the same nude boy would be exposed to his sisters in the home. That would have been and still is a concern that many parents would consider.
I can see a father forbidding nudity in the home, where the mere possibility of that nudity leading to physical contact between brother and sister becomes more likely, even if that likelyhood is miniscule. The incestual taboo is a very strong one.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #21 on: Sep 10th, 2011, 12:31pm »
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everybody's right and everybody's wrong.   Cool
On the one hand, MOST stories surfacing throughout the internet are F-A-K-E.   Yes, most stories.
BUT, on the bigger picture, there certainly wouldn't have been issue for either girls or boys, if such a thing would occur.  
So, for instance; the case of the YMCA in white plains.  WHere it started with just one mother staying because she didn't have any place to go.  And she was probably curious as well.  
Then, she brought a friend.  Until finally, there were at least 8 adult or teenage women, and another 6 children.  
I can also speak for overseas encounters; that generally mothers don't mind if their daughters see naked male youths.   Girls usually pretend to be disinterested.  So, they keep their curiosities concealed.
and finally, boys are almost always alright with it.  If you talk to any man who's seen this in South East Asia, they will all agree.   boys don't get upset when girls watch them in various stages of undress.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #22 on: Sep 11th, 2011, 2:17pm »
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on Sep 10th, 2011, 2:30am, glass4242 wrote:

 
...
 
When I complained to my dad about the apparent unfairness of us boys having to swim naked while the girls got to wear suits, he replied, "You got it backwards, son ... you guys GET to go skinny dippin', while those girls HAVE to wear those ugly, tight, uncomfortable suits."
 
That comment from my dad seemed to change my attitude forever.
 

 
That's one way of looking at it - what a great outlook! I know just what you mean about changing your attitude -it kind of makes me wish I could have been in that situation...
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #23 on: Sep 11th, 2011, 3:14pm »
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on Sep 10th, 2011, 12:31pm, Dan2 wrote:
everybody's right and everybody's wrong.   Cool
On the one hand, MOST stories surfacing throughout the internet are F-A-K-E.   Yes, most stories.
BUT, on the bigger picture, there certainly wouldn't have been issue for either girls or boys, if such a thing would occur.  
So, for instance; the case of the YMCA in white plains.  WHere it started with just one mother staying because she didn't have any place to go.  And she was probably curious as well.  
Then, she brought a friend.  Until finally, there were at least 8 adult or teenage women, and another 6 children.  
I can also speak for overseas encounters; that generally mothers don't mind if their daughters see naked male youths.   Girls usually pretend to be disinterested.  So, they keep their curiosities concealed.
and finally, boys are almost always alright with it.  If you talk to any man who's seen this in South East Asia, they will all agree.   boys don't get upset when girls watch them in various stages of undress.

 
Dan2,
I must have missed something.  Who mentioned "White Plains" and what post number was it?  I looked but could not find that post.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #24 on: Sep 11th, 2011, 3:17pm »
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on Sep 11th, 2011, 2:17pm, peterjf wrote:

 
That's one way of looking at it - what a great outlook! I know just what you mean about changing your attitude -it kind of makes me wish I could have been in that situation...

 
peterjf,
Actually, I always considered myself to have the advantage because I could be in very little or no clothing in certain situations where the females in my family and female friends had to stay dressed.  
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #25 on: Sep 11th, 2011, 4:53pm »
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on Sep 7th, 2011, 4:17pm, Bobby_Bare wrote:
LadyLover, I know exactly what you mean. Those speedos, especially of the thin material type  were very revealing, and to get an erection in them was the ultimate embarrassment.
They were so thin material that when they were wet they were almost transparent.  
Of course they were attractive to the girls, who could compare packages and different shapes.  Grin
 
Easterman, I also find it funny that it was considered as normal for boys to swim naked, even in front of female relatives and their friends, but not acceptable at home for the same boys to show themselves naked, or even  in just underwear.
I think that this reasoning was universally acceptable at that time, maybe because the older generation males only knew swimming in the nude, so for them it was natural and normal. But they had to keep modesty and be decently dressed outside of the swimming environment.
Also teen boys up to the age mentioned in this account were still considered as kids, even though they were into puberty, and so it was not considered a big deal by adults if girls and women watched them swimming nude.
Of course it was only considered as a big deal by some of the boys themselves, as the account here says, especially at the older age.
But they could do nothing about it because they had to do what the parents and elders said.
Again this was all to the advantage, and enjoyment, of the girls.

 
Bobby,
During my high school years, I attended a privately run "reform school" which was managed by an organization of people who were associated with a particular religious belief.  They were very strict with us and spankings were common but that's another story.  (By way of explanation, I was arrested at age 15 for attempting to buy marijuana from an undercover police officer whom I thought was my friend.  During the trial he lied when he said that I had also agreed to buy cocaine from him which was not true at all.   My parent's minister and my dad negotiated with the judge and the judge agreed to send me to the private reform school that was recommended by the minister instead of the state run reform school.)  
At that school we had a larger than Olympic size swimming pool.  I was on the swim team and during our practice sessions we always swam nude.  There were no females.  (The females who attended that school were in a different section of the complex but sometimes after school we would see them sitting in the commons area.)  For public swim meets we wore school issued swim suits.  They were similar in their design as the brief type "speedos" but the material was made in part from Cotton and I think Nylon.  They were a pale light green color and when they were wet they became translucent.  Because they were a relatively snug fit, when the wet material clung to our skin, the color of the skin could be seen through the wet material.  The skin color was affected by the pale green color of the material but none the less could be seen.  The wetness of the material which was somewhat thin would cling to our genitalia allowing it to be seen.  There was only one guy who used to pull at the material away from his genitalia.  He looked really silly doing this.  The rest of us didn't care.  And yes, I did notice people looking at our genitalia, especially the females.  
The reform school had an arrangement with 4 schools.  The nearest one was about 60 miles away, as I recall.  The one that was farthest away was about 150 miles from the reform school.  That school agreed to compete with us but we had to go there.  We were transported on a bus that, in addition to the student swimmers also carried at least two guards and sometimes three guards.  Sometimes one of the guards was female.  
During one of those meets between the races, I was sitting talking with a girl I found attractive and apparently she also found me attractive.  Her appearance and the way she was talking with me was giving me about 2/3rds of an erection.  I was called to go to the pool and as I stood up, my swim suit caught on a metal piece that was part of the bench, causing a rip in the side back hip area of the suit.  The swimming coach happened to be standing near when this happened and told me I would not be allowed to swim with the suit in the ripped condition and that he would get me another suit.  They carried a few spares.  He came back with the other suit and told me to give him the suit I was wearing.  We were not allowed to question authority at all because if we did we would receive a punishment usually in the form of swats with a long paddle.  This time, though, I asked if I should go to the locker room.  The swimming coach said "No, there's no one to go in there with you and  you guys are not allowed to go in there by yourselves..."  This was because of a security issue.  I then said "I don't want to embarrass the women."  There were several women with what I assumed to be their husbands and some younger high school and college age females sitting nearby.  The swimming coach turned to them and asked "Do any of you ladies care if he changes in front of you?"  The ones who answered all said they didn't care and "that's OK."  
I still was concerned about embarrassing them so I asked the swimming coach if I could have a towel to wrap around me so that I could change under it.  The swimming coach then became angry and impatient and said "Take off that suit and do it now!"  I immediately took off my suit and turned and saw that every female and some of the males were looking at me and specifically at the area of my genitals.  The swimming coach took my swim suit and then handed me the other suit.  After I put on the other suit the swimming coach said "It's too big.  I got the wrong size.  Give it back."  I handed it back to him expecting him to give me back the other suit but he walked away with both suits leaving me standing there naked.  I sat back down on the bench next to the girl I had been talking with.  I was used to being naked in front of females either at the beach or at home so it really didn't bother me.  An older woman (she was probably around 35) who was sitting in the row behind me, leaned forward and said "You're a very good looking young man."  I thanked her.  
Then the swimming coach came with the other suit.  I stood up and when I did a couple of people took pictures of me standing there naked.  I knew this because of the flashes from their cameras.  The swimming coach turned and gave one of them and angry look and then walked over to a man with a camera and said "What's wrong with you?"  The guy just shrugged his shoulders and smiled.  While he was doing this, I was still naked and waiting.  He brought back over the suit and told me to hurry up and put it on because I was swimming in the next race.  This suit was too snug but I wore it anyway.  When I got out of the water after the race, the suit was so snug that my penis and scrotum could easily be seen in their entirety through the  wet material.  No one seemed to mind and, in fact, everyone was very friendly.  
When I arrived back at the reform school I received 25 swats with a paddle on my bare bottom for arguing with the swimming coach.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #26 on: Sep 12th, 2011, 1:12am »
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on Sep 8th, 2011, 4:37am, HowlingDawg wrote:

 
When I wrote my previous post, I left out some information because I was called away.  I thought I would be able to edit the post before anyone saw it because I was under the impression I would be away from my desk for only a minute or two.  As it turned out, I was away from my desk for several hours.  
In your correction of my statement, you are thinking of the way that YMCA's are today in that many of them are located in suburban areas.  This was not the case in the 1960's and before.  Back then, most YMCA's were located in central business districts.  And, from my experience there was a YWCA somewhere nearby.  I never stated this was a "universal truth", I meant to indicate I was basing what I wrote on my personal experience.  If I didn't convey that clearly, I apologize for the misunderstanding.  
Prior to 1976, my personal experience included trips to several cities where a friend of mine and I stayed in YMCA Hotels.  To the best of my memory, in each place there was also a YWCA not far away.  These trips happened over the span of about 5 years.  
I never said that what the author wrote wasn't real.  I said that I doubt what was written based on my experiences.  From those experiences, in any YMCA I was ever in the following statements were consistently true:
Females were not allowed to go beyond the YMCA lobby;
Females were not allowed to exercise at a YMCA;
To access the pool, it was necessary to go through either the locker room or the shower room or both.  There was never any access to the pool except by way of those routes.  There was no access to the pool area from the immediate outside;
Males were never made to allow women to swim in the YMCA pool unless it was a "Family YMCA".  The first family YMCA I saw was in the New York area in the early 1970's.  In the mid to late 1960's and before, there were no "Family YMCA's" to my knowledge.  
Here is a list of YMCA's I patronized between 1971 and 1976.  At each of the following YMCA's, what I've written above was correct:
 
The San Francisco YMCA;
The MacArthur Park YMCA, L.A., California;
The Glendale YMCA, Glendale, California;
The Hollywood YMCA, Hollywood, California;
The YMCA aka "Military YMCA", San Diego, California;
The Seattle YMCA, Seattle, Washington (downtown area);
The YMCA, Denver Colorado (downtown area);
The YMCA, Omaha, Nebraska (downtown area);
The YMCA, New Orleans, Louisiana;  
The YMCA, Chicago, Illinois;
The YMCA, Kansas City, Missouri (downtown area);
The YMCA, Kansas City, Kansas (downtown area);
The YMCA, Starkville, Mississippi (downtown area);
The YMCA, Buffalo, New York (downtown area);
The YMCA, Manhattan, New York;  
 
In each of these places I either swam in their pools or used exercise facilities.  In some of these places I stayed in the YMCA Hotel for as much as 4 nights.  I stayed only 1 or 2 nights in some of them.  I don't remember ever seeing any sign indicating the possibility of females using the facilities in those days at any of these places.  As mentioned previously, my visits to these places happened intermittently over the span of 5 years.  A friend of mine and I "backpacked" as we "hitch hiked", road buses and trains across the country between late March and early November of each year.  There's actually a CFNM story that happened during one of those trips but I'll save that for another post.  
 
I never meant to indicate that what the author of the story posted by Bobby Bare wasn't real.  I did, however, intend to say that what the author wrote was not in the realm of my experiences at YMCA's and those experiences were rather extensive.  
 
Prior to the mid 1970's I never heard of a female patronizing a YMCA unless the YMCA was a "Family YMCA" and there weren't very many of those.  Notice I'm not saying this never happened but it was common knowledge that females did not go to YMCA's.  I would be very interested in knowing where this YMCA the author of the story wrote about was located.  

 
I have to back Bobby's depictions completely.  You only go back to the 70s, Dawg.  I can go back to the 1940s in Abington Pennsylvania.  The Y was located on Old York Road, just south of Susquehanna Rd.  There was no such thing as a YWCA...I suspect that was a post-war development.  The boys were required to swim nude.  Sisters, Mothers and their friends were allowed...natrually.  I say naturally, because it was bellieved that the female had no attraction to the naked male.  Knowing what I know now, that was a load of bullshit.
 
This was the reason why I never joined any activities at the YMCA.  Yes, I was one of those shy boys that y'all laughed at back when.  I never learned to swim until I had polio, after my family had moved to California in 1951.  Then, I had to learn as a part of my rehab activities.
 
Everything is as Bobby stated it, which is the reason why I hated the YMCA.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #27 on: Sep 12th, 2011, 3:08am »
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on Sep 12th, 2011, 1:12am, MW wrote:

 
I have to back Bobby's depictions completely.  You only go back to the 70s, Dawg.  I can go back to the 1940s in Abington Pennsylvania.  The Y was located on Old York Road, just south of Susquehanna Rd.  There was no such thing as a YWCA...I suspect that was a post-war development.  The boys were required to swim nude.  Sisters, Mothers and their friends were allowed...natrually.  I say naturally, because it was bellieved that the female had no attraction to the naked male.  Knowing what I know now, that was a load of bullshit.
 
This was the reason why I never joined any activities at the YMCA.  Yes, I was one of those shy boys that y'all laughed at back when.  I never learned to swim until I had polio, after my family had moved to California in 1951.  Then, I had to learn as a part of my rehab activities.
 
Everything is as Bobby stated it, which is the reason why I hated the YMCA.

 
MW,
Actually, the first time I ever went to a YMCA was in the 1950's with my brother and my Uncle (one of my dad's brothers).  I also went to a Y during the 1960's a number of times.  
At that time, there were two YMCA's located in San Diego.  Both of them were located in the downtown area.  One of them was more specifically for the military who stayed there in the YMCA Hotel and exercised in the gym and pool.  Civilians could go there and stay at the hotel too.  The other one was for civilians and also had a gym and a hotel.   There was also a YWCA not far from the "civilian YMCA".  
Both my dad and his brothers were veterans having been in the Navy.  Because of their veteran status we always went to the YMCA designated for military except once when we went to the civilian YMCA.  
My dad's brother has been a life long member of the YMCA having joined when he was 15 years old.  He is now in his 90's.  After reading the story posted by Bobby Bare and the pursuant posted discussion, earlier today I called my uncle and asked if he ever remembers a time when females watched males swim naked at the YMCA.  I then asked him to not make jokes because my Uncle can be a "joker" at times.  He agreed that he wouldn't make jokes and would be serious and truthful about the answer.  
He said that when he was 17 years old, his father (my grandfather) used to take him and his brother (my father) to the YMCA for swimming lessons.  They went to the military Y because my grandfather had also been in the Navy.  He told me there were some women and young girls who sat on stair like benches on the side of the pool while the males were swimming naked in the pool.  I then asked him how old the males in the pool were and he responded "They were different ages at different times.  He told me that he was 17 and my dad at that time was 15.  I asked him what year it was then and he replied "1934 or '35."  Then he said "Your granddad at that time was around 40.  (Incidentally, my grandfather lived to the age of 103 and died in 1998, having outlived my dad.)   I asked my uncle if my grandfather also swam in the pool naked.  His response was "Everybody swam naked.  I mean only the men and boys.  The women weren't allowed in the pool.  They had to go to the YWCA to swim."  I then asked him was there ever a problem with the females watching the males swim naked.  He replied "I guess that depends on who you asked.  The way I understood the rules, the only females who were supposed to be there were mothers, female family members and, if necessary, close friends.  Some of the service men (military) used to bring in their girl friends who sat and watched us swim laps.  As a matter of fact, the first time your aunt saw me naked was at that YMCA."  I then asked "Was it embarrassing for any of the guys to be seen naked by the women?"  My uncle's response was "I don't think so but I can only speak for myself.  It didn't seem like any of the guys were embarrassed.   It was somewhat common to see the service men sitting on the benches naked or in towels talking with their girlfriends and the other people there."  
I asked about the gender of the swimming instructor.  He told me the instructor was male.  I then asked if the instructor was also naked and his response was "Yes, of course.  He had to get in the pool with the students and in those days you were not allowed to wear clothes in a YMCA pool."  I then asked him why it was that females were made to wear suits but males had to be naked.  He replied, "That's the way it was back then.  We didn't have to wear suits but they did at the YWCA.  It seems like they preferred it that way.  They  didn't like to have their bodies seen but most of the guys I think didn't care unless they were '"fairies"'.  You could almost always tell if a guy was affected that way because they'd be covering their peckers with their hands and quickly putting on towels after they got out of the pool."  I then asked did any of the guys ever get erections.  My uncle replied "Yes, sometimes guys would get them.  I used to get them after a hard swim sometimes.  Nobody ever said anything about it."  
I then asked when did they stop letting the women in.  His response was, "Well, the females starting coming in as members sometime in the 70's if I recall right.  And the guys started wearing trunks because females were in the water too.  I guess they were afraid that if a guy happened to shoot a little wad it might travel into a woman and get her pregnant."  He then laughed.  
He then asked me "Why all the questions?" and I told him about this website and the discussion.  His response was "Stop f--king around on that stupid computer.  I hate those damn things.  We had one for a while a few years ago and I couldn't make it work right so I told them to come and get it and give me my money back. I know a guy who plays on a computer for hours and he's gotten fat.  Go outside.  Go for a walk or a swim.  You don't need to be sitting reading crap on the computer!"  My uncle can be very outspoken at times.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #28 on: Sep 12th, 2011, 11:07am »
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a reply to "Maverick"  
 
At the time of this relation, I doubt that the risk of an incestuous encounter at home between a brother and a sister  was  really  taken in account in a family, I believe rather that they did not think about such issues but it is only my opinion.
 
Anyway, today, it would have been different and your argument would have been right.  
 
"Just my opinion but it seems logical if you look at the fact that in a public setting, away from the possibility of direct contact there would be less chance of an incestual encounter than if the same nude boy would be exposed to his sisters in the home. That would have been and still is a concern that many parents would consider.
I can see a father forbidding nudity in the home, where the mere possibility of that nudity leading to physical contact between brother and sister becomes more likely, even if that likelyhood is miniscule. The incestual taboo is a very strong one".
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #29 on: Sep 12th, 2011, 12:10pm »
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MW, thank you for that refreshing and insightful account.  You put some good questions to your uncle. It's interesting to hear first hand accounts of CFNM encounters from people who were there decades ago.  Tell your uncle we thank him.  He sounds like quite a character.  May he live at least another century.  Cool
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #30 on: Sep 12th, 2011, 1:42pm »
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on Sep 12th, 2011, 3:08am, HowlingDawg wrote:

 
MW,
Actually, the first time I ever went to a YMCA was in the 1950's with my brother and my Uncle (one of my dad's brothers).  I also went to a Y during the 1960's a number of times.  
At that time, there were two YMCA's located in San Diego.  Both of them were located in the downtown area.  One of them was more specifically for the military who stayed there in the YMCA Hotel and exercised in the gym and pool.  Civilians could go there and stay at the hotel too.  The other one was for civilians and also had a gym and a hotel.   There was also a YWCA not far from the "civilian YMCA".  
Both my dad and his brothers were veterans having been in the Navy.  Because of their veteran status we always went to the YMCA designated for military except once when we went to the civilian YMCA.  
My dad's brother has been a life long member of the YMCA having joined when he was 15 years old.  He is now in his 90's.  After reading the story posted by Bobby Bare and the pursuant posted discussion, earlier today I called my uncle and asked if he ever remembers a time when females watched males swim naked at the YMCA.  I then asked him to not make jokes because my Uncle can be a "joker" at times.  He agreed that he wouldn't make jokes and would be serious and truthful about the answer.  
He said that when he was 17 years old, his father (my grandfather) used to take him and his brother (my father) to the YMCA for swimming lessons.  They went to the military Y because my grandfather had also been in the Navy.  He told me there were some women and young girls who sat on stair like benches on the side of the pool while the males were swimming naked in the pool.  I then asked him how old the males in the pool were and he responded "They were different ages at different times.  He told me that he was 17 and my dad at that time was 15.  I asked him what year it was then and he replied "1934 or '35."  Then he said "Your granddad at that time was around 40.  (Incidentally, my grandfather lived to the age of 103 and died in 1998, having outlived my dad.)   I asked my uncle if my grandfather also swam in the pool naked.  His response was "Everybody swam naked.  I mean only the men and boys.  The women weren't allowed in the pool.  They had to go to the YWCA to swim."  I then asked him was there ever a problem with the females watching the males swim naked.  He replied "I guess that depends on who you asked.  The way I understood the rules, the only females who were supposed to be there were mothers, female family members and, if necessary, close friends.  Some of the service men (military) used to bring in their girl friends who sat and watched us swim laps.  As a matter of fact, the first time your aunt saw me naked was at that YMCA."  I then asked "Was it embarrassing for any of the guys to be seen naked by the women?"  My uncle's response was "I don't think so but I can only speak for myself.  It didn't seem like any of the guys were embarrassed.   It was somewhat common to see the service men sitting on the benches naked or in towels talking with their girlfriends and the other people there."  
I asked about the gender of the swimming instructor.  He told me the instructor was male.  I then asked if the instructor was also naked and his response was "Yes, of course.  He had to get in the pool with the students and in those days you were not allowed to wear clothes in a YMCA pool."  I then asked him why it was that females were made to wear suits but males had to be naked.  He replied, "That's the way it was back then.  We didn't have to wear suits but they did at the YWCA.  It seems like they preferred it that way.  They  didn't like to have their bodies seen but most of the guys I think didn't care unless they were '"fairies"'.  You could almost always tell if a guy was affected that way because they'd be covering their peckers with their hands and quickly putting on towels after they got out of the pool."  I then asked did any of the guys ever get erections.  My uncle replied "Yes, sometimes guys would get them.  I used to get them after a hard swim sometimes.  Nobody ever said anything about it."  
I then asked when did they stop letting the women in.  His response was, "Well, the females starting coming in as members sometime in the 70's if I recall right.  And the guys started wearing trunks because females were in the water too.  I guess they were afraid that if a guy happened to shoot a little wad it might travel into a woman and get her pregnant."  He then laughed.  
He then asked me "Why all the questions?" and I told him about this website and the discussion.  His response was "Stop f--king around on that stupid computer.  I hate those damn things.  We had one for a while a few years ago and I couldn't make it work right so I told them to come and get it and give me my money back. I know a guy who plays on a computer for hours and he's gotten fat.  Go outside.  Go for a walk or a swim.  You don't need to be sitting reading crap on the computer!"  My uncle can be very outspoken at times.  

 
Dawg,
 
Your uncle is right on…his memory, I mean.  Thanks for sharing that.  He confirms everything I remember, including the part about the “fairies.”  
 
Ha-ha.  I guess I was one back then.  Those days were simpler than now.  They wouldn’t understand any of the content of this site.  Supposedly, girls weren’t interested in male bodies.  But the woman had to protect their bodies from the glances of men.  Men didn’t…or shouldn’t care if they were seen naked.  Men were all avaricious, seeking sex at every occasion.  Sex was bad…and ugly.  Imagine the male who fit into that world: you were either manly or a fairy.
 
I know I didn’t fit.  In those days I was gangly, a bit over-intellectual and sensitive (so I was told).  I liked to read, do math homework and I didn’t perceive myself to be good at sports (when I got into my twenties I was surprised to learn I had an aptitude for sports—surprise, surprise).  I was self-conscious and embarrassed about myself.  I imagined the girls all going into back rooms and laughing about seeing me nude…hell, I imagined the boys even joining them.  It was all rather like the dreaded fart in church at the moment of silence...those thick, oak benches reverberating and intensifying the sound. Cheesy  So I loathed the YMCA, with the girls sitting in the bleachers—the same girls I was going to see in Mrs. Caller’s class the next day.  So I walked away from Y swim classes.  I went home, sat in my room and read or stared at my tropical fish (no TV in those days).  My father was a distant Scots Calvinist man who didn’t care what I did.  
 
But I'm none the worst for it now.  I sired two brilliant daughters, one a lawyer and one a surgeon. Ha-ha, so this fairy's equipment works pretty well.  
 
My point is that those were cold, insensitive times.  One-dimensional times.  A time for conformists only.  No tolerance for anyone or anything different.  Not that we don’t have our foibles, but I like it now much better.
« Last Edit: Sep 12th, 2011, 2:04pm by MW » IP Logged
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #31 on: Sep 12th, 2011, 1:59pm »
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Dawg.. so sorry I meant to address you regarding your well written account and your cool uncle.  Thank you.  Grin
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #32 on: Sep 12th, 2011, 2:14pm »
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"Dawg" :  
 
As others have already said, your uncle is a very good man with much good sense and who knows how it is necessary to deal with life to get over some bad time and remember only what was good at that time.
 
Of course, i do not agree with his comment about the useless of a computer but he is not completely wrong when he said  that it is better to go outside, to walk or to swim than to stay always behind a computer.
 
Anyway, he gave us an interesting comment about the life and feelings of other times and we can understand better some rules or common situations of the past, why they were like that, why some rules were applied and why boys obeyed to them, and why it was not a big deal, why also girls were treated differently of boys in a way which would not be admitted today.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #33 on: Sep 13th, 2011, 10:54am »
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on Sep 12th, 2011, 12:10pm, hey2004 wrote:
MW, thank you for that refreshing and insightful account.  You put some good questions to your uncle. It's interesting to hear first hand accounts of CFNM encounters from people who were there decades ago.  Tell your uncle we thank him.  He sounds like quite a character.  May he live at least another century.  Cool

 
hey2004,
Your welcome.  I'm glad you enjoyed my post.  Actually, my uncle told me some other things that I didn't include in my post because I thought what he said would be offensive to some readers.  While offending some readers is a possibility, the other comments he made are quite interesting.  Some of his comments would be interesting specifically to the members of this forum.  I debated whether to include those possibly offensive comments but decided against it for fear of having the entire post deleted by the moderators.  I may end up posting some of his other comments but I will need to do some editing if I do post them.  
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #34 on: Sep 13th, 2011, 12:31pm »
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on Sep 12th, 2011, 1:42pm, MW wrote:

 
Dawg,
 
Your uncle is right on…his memory, I mean.  Thanks for sharing that.  He confirms everything I remember, including the part about the “fairies.”  
 
Ha-ha.  I guess I was one back then.  Those days were simpler than now.  They wouldn’t understand any of the content of this site.  Supposedly, girls weren’t interested in male bodies.  But the woman had to protect their bodies from the glances of men.  Men didn’t…or shouldn’t care if they were seen naked.  Men were all avaricious, seeking sex at every occasion.  Sex was bad…and ugly.  Imagine the male who fit into that world: you were either manly or a fairy.
 
I know I didn’t fit.  In those days I was gangly, a bit over-intellectual and sensitive (so I was told).  I liked to read, do math homework and I didn’t perceive myself to be good at sports (when I got into my twenties I was surprised to learn I had an aptitude for sports—surprise, surprise).  I was self-conscious and embarrassed about myself.  I imagined the girls all going into back rooms and laughing about seeing me nude…hell, I imagined the boys even joining them.  It was all rather like the dreaded fart in church at the moment of silence...those thick, oak benches reverberating and intensifying the sound. Cheesy  So I loathed the YMCA, with the girls sitting in the bleachers—the same girls I was going to see in Mrs. Caller’s class the next day.  So I walked away from Y swim classes.  I went home, sat in my room and read or stared at my tropical fish (no TV in those days).  My father was a distant Scots Calvinist man who didn’t care what I did.  
 
But I'm none the worst for it now.  I sired two brilliant daughters, one a lawyer and one a surgeon. Ha-ha, so this fairy's equipment works pretty well.  
 
My point is that those were cold, insensitive times.  One-dimensional times.  A time for conformists only.  No tolerance for anyone or anything different.  Not that we don’t have our foibles, but I like it now much better.

 
MW,
Thank you for your comments.  I'm glad you enjoyed my uncle's comments.  One of the other questions I asked him which I didn't include in my post because his answer was somewhat offensive was "I always thought that the YMCA didn't let women in where the guys were naked."  This is his response but note that I have edited out certain parts of his response because of their potentially offensive nature:
"This was primarily a military YMCA where mostly soldiers and sailors went.  Civilians could also go there but most of the guys were military.  You had some guy who was about to be shipped out in a day or two and wanted to spend as much time with his girl friend as possible and maybe wanted to show off his athletic skills to her so at some of the military Y's I was at, the management looked the other way.  I really don't think the girl friends of the soldiers were supposed to be there but none of us cared and the lifeguard and the Y management didn't kick them out.  The mothers and sisters of the boys and teenagers who were swimming or taking lessons were permitted to watch their sons and brothers.  Sometimes friends would come with them.   I didn't mind it but I felt sorry for this one guy.  We were sitting in the steam room inside the locker room shower area.  There were 5 guys in the steam room, all of us were naked.  One of them was a kid who appeared to be 16 or 17 years old.  I remember we were talking about Joe DiMagio, you know the baseball player.... when the lifeguard, who was also naked by the way,  opened the door and called out this kid's name.  I think his name was Billy.  The kid responded and the lifeguard told him they were looking for him and it was time for him to come to the pool.  The kid responded he'd be there in a minute.  After the lifeguard shut the door, the kid said that he didn't want to do this but he had to because his mom already paid for the lessons.  So I asked him why he didn't want to take the swimming lessons.  He told me that for one thing he already knew how to swim but they were gonna help him improve his swimming and for another thing his sister brought 3 of her girl friends with her and that they had ridden in the car with them to the Y because they were all going shopping after he finished his swimming lesson, and his mom had brought a female friend of hers with her who was one of this kid's teachers at school and he didn't want them to see him naked because he thought the girls would tease him and he would feel weird seeing the teacher the next day.  A couple of us in the steam room tried to boost his confidence by telling him he was a handsome guy who had nothing to be ashamed of and that those girls may not want to admit it but they will probably enjoy seeing him naked.  He seemed to like hearing that and went out to the pool."
 
I then asked my uncle "Was he really a handsome guy who had nothing to be ashamed of or did you just tell him that to boost his confidence?"  My uncle replied "No, he was a good looking guy with an athletic body and a really big pecker.  That kid had nothing to be ashamed of."
 
Kind of half teasing my uncle I then asked him "Was his pecker as big as yours?"  (My uncle is extremely well endowed as were both of his brothers one of which was my dad.  Large penises are common on my dad's side of the family.  My brother and I inherited this trait.)
My uncle's answer was "Not quite but almost.  It was definitely big enough to catch your eye."  
 
My uncle then went on to say "Later I went out to the pool and the kid was standing in the pool breathing heavy.  The water was up to his waist and he had a boner.  I guess his mom saw the boner because she came over to the pool and told him to get out of the water.  She then pulled out a small paddle from her purse, you know one of those that has a rubber band and a ball attached to it when you buy it?  This one didn't have the rubber band and the ball anymore.  He got up out of the water and his mom started whacking him on the butt with the paddle.  The kid started crying and then his mom grabbed him by the arm and took him over to the benches where she, his teacher and the girls who were about his age were all sitting.  He stood there while his mom scolded him for a couple of minutes.  I noticed that his teacher and three of the girls who were sitting eye level with the kid's waist all seemed to be looking at his boner.  Actually, one of the girls and his teacher seemed to be staring at it for a few seconds.  His mother was really strict and if he looked away she would whack him on the side of his leg or on the butt and tell him to look at her and to not move until she told him to.  When she was done scolding him she told him to get back in the water and finish his lesson and that he'd get a spanking from his father when he got home.  The kid turned around and he still had the boner.  He was crying and he got back in the water and started swimming again."  
(There's more to this story my uncle told me.  I'll tell the rest later.)  
« Last Edit: Sep 13th, 2011, 12:38pm by HowlingDawg » IP Logged
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #35 on: Sep 13th, 2011, 1:34pm »
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on Sep 13th, 2011, 12:31pm, HowlingDawg wrote:

 
MW,
Thank you for your comments.  I'm glad you enjoyed my uncle's comments.  One of the other questions I asked him which I didn't include in my post because his answer was somewhat offensive was "I always thought that the YMCA didn't let women in where the guys were naked."  This is his response but note that I have edited out certain parts of his response because of their potentially offensive nature:
"This was primarily a military YMCA where mostly soldiers and sailors went.  Civilians could also go there but most of the guys were military.  You had some guy who was about to be shipped out in a day or two and wanted to spend as much time with his girl friend as possible and maybe wanted to show off his athletic skills to her so at some of the military Y's I was at, the management looked the other way.  I really don't think the girl friends of the soldiers were supposed to be there but none of us cared and the lifeguard and the Y management didn't kick them out.  The mothers and sisters of the boys and teenagers who were swimming or taking lessons were permitted to watch their sons and brothers.  Sometimes friends would come with them.   I didn't mind it but I felt sorry for this one guy.  We were sitting in the steam room inside the locker room shower area.  There were 5 guys in the steam room, all of us were naked.  One of them was a kid who appeared to be 16 or 17 years old.  I remember we were talking about Joe DiMagio, you know the baseball player.... when the lifeguard, who was also naked by the way,  opened the door and called out this kid's name.  I think his name was Billy.  The kid responded and the lifeguard told him they were looking for him and it was time for him to come to the pool.  The kid responded he'd be there in a minute.  After the lifeguard shut the door, the kid said that he didn't want to do this but he had to because his mom already paid for the lessons.  So I asked him why he didn't want to take the swimming lessons.  He told me that for one thing he already knew how to swim but they were gonna help him improve his swimming and for another thing his sister brought 3 of her girl friends with her and that they had ridden in the car with them to the Y because they were all going shopping after he finished his swimming lesson, and his mom had brought a female friend of hers with her who was one of this kid's teachers at school and he didn't want them to see him naked because he thought the girls would tease him and he would feel weird seeing the teacher the next day.  A couple of us in the steam room tried to boost his confidence by telling him he was a handsome guy who had nothing to be ashamed of and that those girls may not want to admit it but they will probably enjoy seeing him naked.  He seemed to like hearing that and went out to the pool."
 
I then asked my uncle "Was he really a handsome guy who had nothing to be ashamed of or did you just tell him that to boost his confidence?"  My uncle replied "No, he was a good looking guy with an athletic body and a really big pecker.  That kid had nothing to be ashamed of."
 
Kind of half teasing my uncle I then asked him "Was his pecker as big as yours?"  (My uncle is extremely well endowed as were both of his brothers one of which was my dad.  Large penises are common on my dad's side of the family.  My brother and I inherited this trait.)
My uncle's answer was "Not quite but almost.  It was definitely big enough to catch your eye."  
 
My uncle then went on to say "Later I went out to the pool and the kid was standing in the pool breathing heavy.  The water was up to his waist and he had a boner.  I guess his mom saw the boner because she came over to the pool and told him to get out of the water.  She then pulled out a small paddle from her purse, you know one of those that has a rubber band and a ball attached to it when you buy it?  This one didn't have the rubber band and the ball anymore.  He got up out of the water and his mom started whacking him on the butt with the paddle.  The kid started crying and then his mom grabbed him by the arm and took him over to the benches where she, his teacher and the girls who were about his age were all sitting.  He stood there while his mom scolded him for a couple of minutes.  I noticed that his teacher and three of the girls who were sitting eye level with the kid's waist all seemed to be looking at his boner.  Actually, one of the girls and his teacher seemed to be staring at it for a few seconds.  His mother was really strict and if he looked away she would whack him on the side of his leg or on the butt and tell him to look at her and to not move until she told him to.  When she was done scolding him she told him to get back in the water and finish his lesson and that he'd get a spanking from his father when he got home.  The kid turned around and he still had the boner.  He was crying and he got back in the water and started swimming again."  
(There's more to this story my uncle told me.  I'll tell the rest later.)  

 
Dawg,
 
More fascinating stuff about the era from your uncle.  Thanks.  
 
Well, at least I never got that sort of treatment.  My mum could be vicious (she had the local shoemaker make her a cat-o-nine-tails), but she was never sado-sexually abusive like that mother.  Just angry...with her hands full with four boys.
 
With two brothers before me, she finally understood that boys get involuntary erections...especially in provocative or nervous circumstances.  I've always said that the erection was one of the (several) most misunderstood things by American women.  My mum was understanding and discreet about that; she never would have taken off after any one of us for that.
 
And I must say, by the time I was 16 - 17 I was a big kid, about 6' 2".  By this time she had a yardstick (my dad finally took an interest in us kids and the first thing he did was take away her cat-o-nine-tails) and one day she took after me with the yardstick on the stairs leading up to the 2nd story landing.  I simply took it away from her and broke it over my knee, over and over, until it was so small a piece that all I was doing was bruising my leg.  
 
A lot of accumulated anger from the years past; but of course I never touched her.  Not a part of our family scene, thank goodness.  I was more like, I'm not going to put up with this shit anymore!  I'd developed into a tall, strapping, good-looking (if I may say so myself) kid, who became popular with girls and boys alike.  I had long outgrown my fairy stage...and my mums antics.
 
I feel sorry for the kid your uncle described in that story.  But WTF, we all have to grow a pair sometime.  Maybe this was his day.
« Last Edit: Sep 13th, 2011, 1:52pm by MW » IP Logged
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #36 on: Sep 13th, 2011, 6:00pm »
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Thanks for the laugh about your uncle's story, Dawg.
I always enjoy these kind of stories and accounts about male embarrassment with female domination.  
Like I always say, if we had a female dominated society we would have a lot more CFNM.  Grin
 
A guy told me a similar account once which happened at his school. I will post it later when I find it.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #37 on: Sep 14th, 2011, 3:43am »
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"Dawg"
 
The adding part of the story with the boy of 16-17 age being punished by his mother in front of her friend and daughter and other girls in the swimming pool is very funny and interesting from a CFMN point of view but it is not at all credible.  
 
I appreciate it like others but I believe that it is really a fantasy, on the opposite of the former part of the relation about your uncle comments which seems more credible.
 
I cannot imagine that, even in the past, a male teenager of 16 age would have let his mother whacked him on the butts with a paddle on the benches openly in public without any privacy like she did in your story.
 
At 16 age, a boy is no more a child, so he could have refused that humiliation even if he knew that his refusal would have bad consequences for him at home with a spanking by his dad but it would have been different : it was better to be spanked at home by his father than humiliated by his mother like that in the swimming pool.
 
Anyway, it is not important but your uncle has a great fantasy to give us a good CFMN story!
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #38 on: Sep 14th, 2011, 1:56pm »
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on Sep 14th, 2011, 3:43am, easter_man_10 wrote:
"Dawg"
 
The adding part of the story with the boy of 16-17 age being punished by his mother in front of her friend and daughter and other girls in the swimming pool is very funny and interesting from a CFMN point of view but it is not at all credible.  
 
I appreciate it like others but I believe that it is really a fantasy, on the opposite of the former part of the relation about your uncle comments which seems more credible.
 
I cannot imagine that, even in the past, a male teenager of 16 age would have let his mother whacked him on the butts with a paddle on the benches openly in public without any privacy like she did in your story.
 
At 16 age, a boy is no more a child, so he could have refused that humiliation even if he knew that his refusal would have bad consequences for him at home with a spanking by his dad but it would have been different : it was better to be spanked at home by his father than humiliated by his mother like that in the swimming pool.
 
Anyway, it is not important but your uncle has a great fantasy to give us a good CFMN story!  

 
Easter man,
When my uncle told me this story, I thought he was trying to joke but later I found out, as he continued to tell the story that the story was real.  
You might remember that at the end of my post I wrote I would continue the rest of the story later.  In the remainder of the story, there is information that will make the story seem more credible but also there is information which makes the story even more incredible.  I specifically asked my uncle a couple of times while he was telling the story if it was real and he always answered "yes".  
As difficult as this story is to believe in the first part, as you read more of the story you will probably have one or both of these opinions:
This is one of the wildest stories  I've ever read  
and/or  
This second part of the story makes it seem much more credible.  
 
 
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #39 on: Sep 14th, 2011, 4:39pm »
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on Sep 13th, 2011, 12:31pm, HowlingDawg wrote:

 
  
 
My uncle then went on to say "Later I went out to the pool and the kid was standing in the pool breathing heavy.  The water was up to his waist and he had a boner.  I guess his mom saw the boner because she came over to the pool and told him to get out of the water.  She then pulled out a small paddle from her purse, you know one of those that has a rubber band and a ball attached to it when you buy it?  This one didn't have the rubber band and the ball anymore.  He got up out of the water and his mom started whacking him on the butt with the paddle.  The kid started crying and then his mom grabbed him by the arm and took him over to the benches where she, his teacher and the girls who were about his age were all sitting.  He stood there while his mom scolded him for a couple of minutes.  I noticed that his teacher and three of the girls who were sitting eye level with the kid's waist all seemed to be looking at his boner.  Actually, one of the girls and his teacher seemed to be staring at it for a few seconds.  His mother was really strict and if he looked away she would whack him on the side of his leg or on the butt and tell him to look at her and to not move until she told him to.  When she was done scolding him she told him to get back in the water and finish his lesson and that he'd get a spanking from his father when he got home.  The kid turned around and he still had the boner.  He was crying and he got back in the water and started swimming again."  
(There's more to this story my uncle told me.  I'll tell the rest later.)  

 
OMG...was this woman trying to raise a serial killer? Shocked
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #40 on: Sep 14th, 2011, 7:26pm »
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on Sep 14th, 2011, 4:39pm, hey2004 wrote:

 
OMG...was this woman trying to raise a serial killer? Shocked

 
Maybe the mother took drastic action, but one must realize that in a situation like this, which was supposed to be non-sexual, one could not tolerate a teeage boy displaying an erection in front of all those respectable women.
So in a way the boy was shaming his mother in front of her friends, so she was rightly angry.
 
I was told a similar story once by someone who witnessed the same happening with a 15 year old boy when he was waiting on the diving board. The mixed spectators started laughing and pointing at him, especially the young girls, presumably sisters, which turned the whole thing into a farce.  The coach present was angry and ordered the boy immediately down and out of the pool area.
The poor boy had to pass in front of all the spectators present with his hardon, and mocked by everyone, on his way out.
He later got a spanking by the coach, though thankfully in private in this case.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #41 on: Sep 15th, 2011, 12:53am »
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Before I tell the remainder of the story my uncle told me about the young man at the YMCA and his mother, I want to preface it by having an understanding with everyone who is reading this.  What I want you to understand is that there was much about this story upon first hearing that I found doubtful until my uncle came to a certain part in the story which is when I started finding the story more believable.  First, I had serious doubts that females were permitted to watch the naked males swim at the YMCA because I had always been of the understanding that females were never permitted in a YMCA until the mid 1970's when YMCA's were officially patronized by both genders.  With other testaments and then also my uncle's story telling about females being in a YMCA under certain circumstances prior to the mid 1970's, I began to consider the possibility that the idea of females being in a YMCA watching males swim naked could very likely be a historical reality.  Having never seen this for myself, I still find myself holding in reserve a consideration of a minor degree of doubt about this even though my uncle never lied to me under the condition he told me he wasn't lying.  Actually, my consideration of the possibility of doubt isn't caused because I think my uncle might be deliberately lying but rather because I consider the possibility that at 93 years of age, my uncle might be confused and remembering a situation where males swam naked in the presence of females at some place other than a YMCA.  Although, this seems unlikely because my uncle's cognitive abilities seem pretty "sharp", to say the very least.  I'll put it this way about his mental capacity: From tests I've taken it has been determined that my IQ is in the genius range and sometimes, mentally speaking, by his comments and questions my uncle can be challenging to me.  
 
From here on will be a continuation about the story my uncle told me and my conversation with him about that story.  I forgot to mention in my previous post that I am paraphrasing what my uncle said because I didn't record our conversation.  To the best of my memory, what I wrote in my previous post and what I'm writing here in this post is what my uncle actually said but please consider the possibility that I am writing what he said from memory and because of this there might be slight misquotes.  
 
My uncle told me this situation happened in either 1949 or 1950.  The Korean conflict was becoming a strong news item and military activity was becoming more noticeable especially in a military city like San Diego.  One place where my uncle said he noticed the presence of a greater number of military personnel was at the the Military YMCA in downtown.  He told me "The girl friends of the soldiers and sailors weren't always there but they were there sometimes.  There was one guy who had a different girl with him each of the four times I saw him there and with each girl he would always go and stand next to them naked, putting his foot up on the bench where the girl was sitting so his pecker would be right to the side of the girl."  
My uncle continued, "I think a couple of weeks went by before I saw that kid again.  I'm fairly certain his name was Billy.  For telling you this story I'll call him Billy even if I'm wrong about his name.  I walked into the pool area and saw his mom sitting on the benches next to three adolescent girls.  I looked in the water and didn't see Billy.   I got in the water and started stretching for my swim when Billy came through the door.  He was naked like the rest of the guys.  I waved at him and he waved back.  He got in the lane two over from me and was met by his swimming instructor.  I swam for about 30 minutes and then after cooling down went into the shower room.  After my shower I went into the steam room.  About 5 minutes later Billy walked into the steam room.  I asked him how he was and he said '"I'm OK'".  He sounded depressed to me so I asked him "'Are you sure you're OK?'"  I sensed that something was wrong from his demeanor which was kind of down and apathetic.  I questioned him and eventually he told me that he had been receiving a lot of spankings at home from his '"foster dad"'.  I asked him what he meant by '"foster dad'" and he started explaining to me what is meant by a foster dad which made it obvious to me that I had asked the wrong question because I knew the meaning of '"foster dad'".  What I really wanted to know was where his real dad was and why he was living with a foster dad.  He explained to me that his real parents were dead having been in a car accident about 2 years before.  He said he had been living in the state home and went to live with one couple but the man drank too much so they took Billy back to the state home and then they moved him to where he was living then.  I asked him if he had any relatives and he said only one, his aunt and her husband who had 5 children and couldn't afford to take Billy.  His uncle, Billy told me, was crippled and in a wheel chair.  There were no other living relatives that he knew about."
 
"Billy then went on to tell me that his foster brother who was older than him had also been spanking him.  I asked him why they were spanking him and he told me '"...different reasons but I shouldn't have been spanked...I accidentally broke a lamp but it was an accident...I told my foster mom I didn't like the way her meatloaf tasted because she asked me...stuff like that...'"  I said "'They spanked you because you said you didn't like meatloaf?!'"  He replied '"Yeah, I got a spanking right before I came here for taking too long in the bathroom.'"  He then stood up with his back to me and asked "'Is my bottom still red?'"  It was a little red but didn't look like he had been spanked."
I listened to more of his story and had I not seen how his foster mother behaved a couple of weeks before, I possibly would have thought that Billy was exaggerating.  As things were, I decided I believed what he was telling me so I asked him "'Would you like me to talk with your foster parents?'"  He asked me why I would do that for him and I told him it's because of my being a lawyer.  He told me he couldn't afford to pay me anything and I told him that was OK. Later in the locker room he gave me his foster parents address but forgot to write down their phone number.  I didn't notice this until I looked at the information sometime later that night."
 
"The following evening I went to their house and visited with Billy's foster parents.  Things didn't go well when I told them about my conversation with Billy and suggested different types of punishments other than frequent spankings.  Their response was basically one of intolerance when the woman said "'Don't tell me how to raise children!  I've raised three of my own and now we have Billy.  We'll do just fine without any help from you, sir!"' Billy's foster dad than asked me to wait a minute and he left the room leaving me and his wife standing there.  A few minutes later, he came back in the room holding Billy tightly by the arm.  He then asked Billy if what I had said was true, that he had talked with me about their family and the spankings.  Billy said it was true.  I then began to have the feeling that I had actually made things worse for Billy and that feeling was confirmed when Billy's foster dad forced Billy over to the couch, pulled down his pants and started spanking him really hard in front of his foster sisters and a couple of their girlfriends, his foster mother, his foster brother and another woman who had come into the room.   I think Billy's foster dad got 2 or 3 swats in before I was able to stop him.  Right before I stopped him Billy's foster dad looked at me with a glaring smile that looked like '"f--k you'" to me.  I actually ended up slugging Billy's foster dad in the jaw and he landed on the floor half conscious.  His wife called the police and I stayed because I wanted to explain to them what was going on and why I slugged him.  The officers came and I proceeded to explain the situation to them.  One of the officers knew Billy because he had been involved when another officer arrested Billy for shoplifting.  The officer told me that Billy was "trouble" and that his foster parents were right to spank him whenever they thought it necessary.  Billy's foster dad didn't press charges.  The police made sure that I left.  I stood outside for a few minutes until the two cops came out.  I attempted to continue telling them what Billy had told me and about what I had seen.  Both of the officers seemed disinterested.  As we stood there, from inside the house through the open windows we heard Billy yell '"No, no.'"  then we heard slapping sounds and Billy crying '"No, stop, please it hurts, it hurts!"'  I started to go for the front door and both of the officers held me back and one of them said "Stay out of it! Parents have the right to spank their children and this one should be spanked.'"  Then, the front door opened and Billy came running out wearing an unbuttoned short sleeve shirt and nothing else.  One of Billy's foster sisters then stood at the door watching Billy run out from behind him.  The officers put handcuffs on me with my hands behind my back.  They then put me in the back of the patrol car and shut the door.  By this time, Billy had run around to the side of the house.  Both officers went after him but one of them came back a couple of minutes later.  I tried opening the door but it couldn't be opened from inside the patrol car.  I sat there and watched and a few minutes later, Billy was brought back around with the police officer holding Billy's arms behind him.  Billy's shirt was missing and he was naked in full view of not only me, the officers and his family but also in front of other people who had gathered on the street in front of the house.  The other officer went to join the officer who captured Billy and both of them took Billy back into the house.  About a minute later one of the officers came out and stood by the patrol car.  Several seconds later once again we heard Billy yell "please no, don't'" and then several sounds of slapping and the sound of Billy crying out loud."
"The police followed me as I drove my car back to my house.  When I got out of my car, one of them told me that he didn't want me to go anywhere near that house again and that if I did he would put me in jail."
"The next day, I went to the state home and spoke with a woman there who happened to be the other woman I saw at Billy's foster parent's house.  That woman seemed really cold and stiff.   She acted like she hadn't been f--ked in a hundred years.  She told me she was familiar with Billy and told me that his foster parents were '"good, decent people who were perfectly within their  rights to spank Billy whenever they deemed fit.'"  Then she said '"We had to spank him several times when he was staying here.'" Later that evening I met with a judge who was a friend of mine.  I told him what was going on and he told me that unless Billy's life was in danger there was nothing that could be done because there was no law prohibiting his foster parents from spanking him.  I know there are such laws today but in 1949 or '50, there were no such laws.  Boys especially got spanked as much as their parents wanted to spank them.  You know that as well as I do.  Don't you remember I was at your place one time in 1967 when your daddy pulled down your britches and spanked your bare butt in front of your aunt and me and your cousins?"
 
I did remember that time.
 
"I became convinced that there was nothing I could do about this short of somehow creating a new law, I gave up trying to help Billy.  I thought about adopting him but my wife wouldn't hear of it.  When Billy saw me at the YMCA, he thanked me for trying to help him and for slugging his foster dad.  Then he asked me to not try to do anymore because his foster dad spanked him really hard for talking to me about their personal life.  
 
Billy continued to come to the YMCA and every time he came, his foster mother and at least one of his foster sisters was sitting on the benches on the side of the pool.  Sometimes there were other females with them.  Billy told me that the other females were either classmates of his and one of his foster sisters or they were one grade ahead.  His teacher also showed up again a few more times.  I found out from Billy that she had also been giving him bare bottom spankings with a paddle in front of the rest of the class.  He told me that his foster parents had given her permission to spank him.  He started getting a little upset and choked up when he told me that the teacher called his foster parents and he overheard his foster dad say to her something like "You have my permission to pull his pants down and spank his bare bottom until he can't sit down."'  The teacher didn't need the parent's permission in those days, they were legally allowed to spank students back then."  
 
(When I heard my uncle tell me that Billy's foster dad told the teacher that she had permission to spank Billy on his bare bottom, it pained me a little because once many years ago I heard my dad say almost the same thing to one of my teachers, actually a substitute male teacher.)
 
Then my uncle said to me "'You know this, they used to spank you when you were in that reform school."  
 
My uncle then told me that Billy started to cry as he and my uncle sat in the steam room with another man.  My uncle realized there was nothing he could do because of the way the laws were back then.  My uncle told me he said to Billy "I'm sorry I can't help you more." and then got up and walked out.  
 
My uncle continued and said "I cooled off in the shower for a few minutes and walked back out to the pool feeling very disturbed about the situation.  I walked over and tried to talk with Billy's foster mother but she told me to go away and that if I didn't leave her alone she would report me to the police.  I stopped trying because I realized there was nothing else I could do.  I got back in the pool and then realized I really didn't feel like swimming so within a minute I got back out.  I went back into the shower room and then walked back toward the steam room.  There was no one else in the showers.  After I walked into the steam room, as I walked closer to the benches in the steam room through the steam I could see that Billy was getting a "'blow job'" from this other older man whom I had never seen before that day.  I had never seen this happen before at the YMCA.  Neither Billy nor the other man were aware of my presence until a few seconds later when the man sat up and looked and saw that I was there.  At this same time Billy looked up at me.  The man hurriedly went out of the steam room probably afraid that I was going to report him.  Billy then said to me '"I'm sorry you saw that.  You won't tell my foster-mom will you?'"  I told him that I wouldn't say anything to her.  I then turned around and walked out wanting to give Billy some privacy.  A few minutes later Billy came out of the steam room.  His pecker was still mostly hard.  There was nobody else in the showers except him and me.  I told Billy it would help him to take a cold shower and then I walked up the short flight of stairs to the locker room to get dressed.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #42 on: Sep 15th, 2011, 10:02am »
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on Sep 14th, 2011, 3:43am, easter_man_10 wrote:
"Dawg"
 
The adding part of the story with the boy of 16-17 age being punished by his mother in front of her friend and daughter and other girls in the swimming pool is very funny and interesting from a CFMN point of view but it is not at all credible.  
 
I appreciate it like others but I believe that it is really a fantasy, on the opposite of the former part of the relation about your uncle comments which seems more credible.
 
I cannot imagine that, even in the past, a male teenager of 16 age would have let his mother whacked him on the butts with a paddle on the benches openly in public without any privacy like she did in your story.
 
At 16 age, a boy is no more a child, so he could have refused that humiliation even if he knew that his refusal would have bad consequences for him at home with a spanking by his dad but it would have been different : it was better to be spanked at home by his father than humiliated by his mother like that in the swimming pool.
 
Anyway, it is not important but your uncle has a great fantasy to give us a good CFMN story!  

 
Easter man,
It is my understanding that a male at the age of 17 in 1950 (as in the case of my uncle's story about "Billy") would have been less mature, less sophisticated and less psychologically aware than today's 17 year old male.  Of course, I have no proof of this but I have read in the past that some psychologists hold this belief.  I do know this seemed to be true of me and my brother in the 1960's when I compare us to the behavior and thinking of my relative's adolescent children in recent years.  
Another consideration is that in the story, the way I interpret what my uncle told me, "Billy" didn't have a lot of choices.  He was mistreated by his foster parents and he was mistreated at the institution my uncle referred to as the state home.  Maybe he tolerated being spanked by his foster mother because she didn't spank with as much force and pain as his foster father.  It is possible that to him the humiliation he had as a result of being spanked in front of other people by his foster mother was not as physically painful as the spanking from his foster father.  So, he tolerated the spanking from his foster mother and it's related humiliation to avoid the possibly more physically painful spanking from his foster father.   Of course I have no way of knowing this for sure but it does seem like a real possibility in this case.  
 
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #43 on: Sep 15th, 2011, 10:05am »
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on Sep 13th, 2011, 6:00pm, Bobby_Bare wrote:
Thanks for the laugh about your uncle's story, Dawg.
I always enjoy these kind of stories and accounts about male embarrassment with female domination.  
Like I always say, if we had a female dominated society we would have a lot more CFNM.  Grin
 
A guy told me a similar account once which happened at his school. I will post it later when I find it.

 
Bobby,  
Thanks.  Yes, I'd be curious to read the similar account you wrote about to find out how it compares to my uncle's story.  
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #44 on: Sep 15th, 2011, 1:42pm »
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on Sep 14th, 2011, 7:26pm, Bobby_Bare wrote:

Maybe the mother took drastic action, but one must realize that in a situation like this, which was supposed to be non-sexual, one could not tolerate a teeage boy displaying an erection in front of all those respectable women.
So in a way the boy was shaming his mother in front of her friends, so she was rightly angry.

Are you kidding me, Bobby? Huh My mother was the most callous and cruel mum I ever met, and she would never have tolerated one of her friends, or some little smart aleck girl, laughing at one of her sons for an involuntary erection.  I can imagine it now.  She would have told the girl, ‘Get the fuck out of here, you pervert!  WTF are you doing here if you don’t intend to be polite?!!’ Maybe not like that - she was a lady, after all - but that would have been her attitude.
 
And my sister?  She would have had the girl - friend or not - in the aisle, pummeling her.
 
We may have had stresses in our family, but never would we have turned on a son or sibling in the outside world.  Ha-ha, frankly it’s you I find incredible, not your story.  I can’t even wrap my mind around that way of thinking.  I totally agree with ‘hey2004’, that kind of thinking is abnormal and deviant.
 
Soz, don’t mean to be harsh.  But you got a rise out of me with that one.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #45 on: Sep 15th, 2011, 3:13pm »
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on Sep 15th, 2011, 1:42pm, MW wrote:

Are you kidding me, Bobby?  My mother was the most callous and cruel mum I ever met, and she would never have tolerated one of her friends, or some little smart aleck girl, laughing at one of her sons for an involuntary erection.  I can imagine it now.  She would have told the girl, ‘Get the fuck out of here, you pervert!  WTF are you doing here if you don’t intend to be polite?!!’ Maybe not like that - she was a lady, after all - but that would have been her attitude.
 
And my sister?  She would have had the girl - friend or not - in the aisle, pummeling her.
 
We may have had stresses in our family, but never would we have turned on a son or sibling in the outside world.  Frankly, it’s you I don’t found credible.  I can’t even wrap my mind around that way of thinking.  I totally agree with ‘hey2004’, that kind of thinking is abnormal and deviant.
 
Soz, don’t mean to be harsh.  But you got a rise out of me with that one.

 
MW,
Years ago, a lot of people had the mistaken belief that the only reason that a male's penis would become erect in a non sexual situation, was because that male was having "impure thoughts".  My step-mother never talked about it so to this day I don't know what her thinking was although she saw me with an erection many times and she was a retired nurse.  (My dad was a physician.)   Contrasting my step-mothers probably knowledgeable non-communication about this subject, an almost polar opposite was the mother of a friend of mine who,  typical of a lot of ignorant (about this subject) females years ago, believed that males became erect for the sole reason of having "impure thoughts".  I found this out when I stayed over at his house one night.  To this day, at the age of 60, I wake up every morning with an erection so you can probably imagine what my erections were like waking up as an adolescent.  They were probably best described as "full and throbbing".  My older brother and my step-brother/cousin were the same way.  My friend and I woke up in the morning at his house and, typical of most boys at that age, we both had erections.  He told me we would have to put on clothes to go to the bathroom because if his mom saw our erections he would get a spanking and I would be sent home.  I thought this was ridiculous because at my house my brother, my step-brother/cousin and I all used to walk to the bathroom naked in the morning and with erections.  At my friend's house I wasn't about to get dressed and then undress again in the bathroom to take a shower.  My friend said to me, "I'll get you a towel to wear, hold on."  So he then puts on a pair of shorts and a shirt that he left hanging outside of the waist of his shorts so as to hide his erection from his mom if she happened to see him.  He went for the towel and came back a short time later and told me to wrap the towel around me.  I did this but my penis was sticking out way over the top of the towel up to the area of my solar plexus.  So my friend took the towel off me and wrapped it around my chest which caused me to object because that's the way females wear a towel and besides my penis was making the towel "tent" so much that it was absolutely pointless to wear the towel that way for the purpose of hiding my erect penis.  He then gave me a shirt to wear which I reluctantly agreed to wear over the towel.  He and I walked together single file into the bathroom with him leading the way.  
There were other people I knew back then who were just as paranoid and ignorant about erect penises.  With this awareness, what Bobby Bare was saying is that many women in those days would be embarrassed not because their son was naked in front of the other "respectable" females (in an acceptable and appropriate situation such as if the male is participating in certain types of sports) but instead because the son had an erection that the females probably thought was caused by the son having "impure thoughts" possibly about one of them or possibly one of their daughters sitting next to them.    
Pertaining to the nudity of us males, we were supposed to protect the sensitivities of females.  If we were naked and an unfamiliar female happened to come along,  we were supposed to cover our bodies (if possible) unless that female told us it was alright for us to be naked in front of them.  Once that permission was granted, it was perfectly fine for the male to be naked and the males, by the standards of that day, were not supposed to feel any nudity shyness ever.  But, an erection was unacceptable in a situation like that because an erection was interpreted as the male being in a state of lust about the female.  In a non-sexual situation it would be necessary for the male to hide his erection as quickly as possible so as to not offend the unfamiliar female.   These are generalities and every female I was ever with in a situation similar to the example described above always gave permission for me to be naked in front of them.  (Some of them turned that non-sexual situation into a sexual one but that's a different story.)
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #46 on: Sep 15th, 2011, 4:32pm »
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Thanks for the explanation, Dawg.
Exactly what I meant.
 
MW, I did not say that the mother did the right thing. What I said, or at least meant, was that she thought that she was doing the right thing, because that was the mentality of many people back then, as Dawg has explained so well above.  
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #47 on: Sep 15th, 2011, 4:48pm »
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on Sep 15th, 2011, 3:13pm, HowlingDawg wrote:

 
MW,
Years ago, a lot of people had the mistaken belief that the only reason that a male's penis would become erect in a non sexual situation, was because that male was having "impure thoughts".  My step-mother never talked about it so to this day I don't know what her thinking was although she saw me with an erection many times and she was a retired nurse.  (My dad was a physician.)  

 
Dawg, I understand all of that.  I corrected my post (that you quoted) so often because I didn't want to be criticising Bobby, but the idea that this was normal or acceptable behavior.  Bobby was not recounting a fact or story, but making an argument that defended deviant behavior.  That changed the nature of the discussion from your relating your uncle's stories, to a normative discussion, with Bobby actually trying to justify something I find abhorant.
 
My father too was a physician.  As I mentioned elsewhere, he was professor of medicine at Harvard University until 1951, when he accepted a teaching position at Berkeley (now UCSF Medical School).  These are people who were born in 1906 and 1907 respectively.  They are from the very era that spawned the ignorance and closed-mindedness that we are now discussing.
 
My mother was originally as  ignorant as any other American woman about male physiology and sexuality...until my father enlightened her.  She understood all about involuntary erections.  But that benefit aside, she would never have turned on a sibling in this family.  My two older brothers protected me.  I protected my sister and my little brother.  And if need be, my mother was hell-on-wheels to anyone who attacked any one of us.  A mother who sexually humiliated her son before outsiders, should have had her parent's license taken away.
 
I was not one of those who doubted your uncle's story.  But I remain of the opinion that the conduct of the mother in the story was sick, deviant behavior.  The whole discussion changed when Bobby, without any reservation, tried to defend her conduct.  I would be irresponsible if I let that pass.
 
Quote:
Contrasting my step-mothers probably knowledgeable non-communication about this subject, an almost polar opposite was the mother of a friend of mine who,  typical of a lot of ignorant (about this subject) females years ago, believed that males became erect for the sole reason of having "impure thoughts".  I found this out when I stayed over at his house one night.  To this day, at the age of 60, I wake up every morning with an erection so you can probably imagine what my erections were like waking up as an adolescent.  They were probably best described as "full and throbbing".  My older brother and my step-brother/cousin were the same way.  My friend and I woke up in the morning at his house and, typical of most boys at that age, we both had erections.  He told me we would have to put on clothes to go to the bathroom because if his mom saw our erections he would get a spanking and I would be sent home.  I thought this was ridiculous because at my house my brother, my step-brother/cousin and I all used to walk to the bathroom naked in the morning and with erections.  At my friend's house I wasn't about to get dressed and then undress again in the bathroom to take a shower.  My friend said to me, "I'll get you a towel to wear, hold on."  So he then puts on a pair of shorts and a shirt that he left hanging outside of the waist of his shorts so as to hide his erection from his mom if she happened to see him.  He went for the towel and came back a short time later and told me to wrap the towel around me.  I did this but my penis was sticking out way over the top of the towel up to the area of my solar plexus.  So my friend took the towel off me and wrapped it around my chest which caused me to object because that's the way females wear a towel and besides my penis was making the towel "tent" so much that it was absolutely pointless to wear the towel that way for the purpose of hiding my erect penis.  He then gave me a shirt to wear which I reluctantly agreed to wear over the towel.  He and I walked together single file into the bathroom with him leading the way.  

 
Ha-ha, I wish I could awake today with an erection that was "full and throbbing".  
 
Quote:
There were other people I knew back then who were just as paranoid and ignorant about erect penises.  With this awareness, what Bobby Bare was saying is that many women in those days would be embarrassed not because their son was naked in front of the other "respectable" females (in an acceptable and appropriate situation such as if the male is participating in certain types of sports) but instead because the son had an erection that the females probably thought was caused by the son having "impure thoughts" possibly about one of them or possibly one of their daughters sitting next to them.  

 
At the risk of contradiction, here's what Bobby said:
 
Quote:
Maybe the mother took drastic action, but one must realize that in a situation like this, which was supposed to be non-sexual, one could not tolerate a teeage boy displaying an erection in front of all those respectable women.  
 
So in a way the boy was shaming his mother in front of her friends, so she was rightly angry.

 
Italics furnished.  Now, I wasn't born yesterday...did he say "rightly angry"?  That's a normative argument, unqualified as to any temper of the times historical discussion.  That's a defense of a position.  I am not only a (retired) professor of political philosophy, but a licensed attorney as well, with years of practice behind me.  I think I know the difference between factual speech and polemical argument, your attempts at trying to rehabilitate his position notwithstanding.
 
Quote:
Pertaining to the nudity of us males, we were supposed to protect the sensitivities of females.  If we were naked and an unfamiliar female happened to come along,  we were supposed to cover our bodies (if possible) unless that female told us it was alright for us to be naked in front of them.  Once that permission was granted, it was perfectly fine for the male to be naked and the males, by the standards of that day, were not supposed to feel any nudity shyness ever.  But, an erection was unacceptable in a situation like that because an erection was interpreted as the male being in a state of lust about the female.  In a non-sexual situation it would be necessary for the male to hide his erection as quickly as possible so as to not offend the unfamiliar female.   These are generalities and every female I was ever with in a situation similar to the example described above always gave permission for me to be naked in front of them.  (Some of them turned that non-sexual situation into a sexual one but that's a different story.)  

 
You are now changing the subject back into a factual discussion about historical matters, not normative positions.  I don't mind if you do that.  I just call upon you to recogize the difference.  Two different kinds of discussions.
 
Anymore about what your uncle told you?
« Last Edit: Sep 15th, 2011, 5:58pm by MW » IP Logged
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #48 on: Sep 16th, 2011, 1:27am »
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MW,
Here is what Bobby Bare wrote:
 
"Maybe the mother took drastic action, but one must realize that in a situation like this, which was supposed to be non-sexual, one could not tolerate a teenage boy displaying an erection in front of all those respectable women.  
So in a way the boy was shaming his mother in front of her friends, so she was rightly angry."

 
Pertaining to the last sentence, here is what I think Bobby Bare meant:
 
"So in a way the boy was shaming his mother in front of her friends, so she was rightly angry in accordance with the societal thinking of that time and perhaps her  religious and/or her psychological beliefs pertaining to the subject of erections."
 
Perhaps I read into his post but the above interpretation is the way I always interpreted his post.  
 
By way of example, let's compare this to a subject that a lot of people detest today, abortion.  A doctor who performs an abortion today is not breaking any laws.  However, that does not mean that in the future a doctor who performed abortions in the past won't be viewed from the perspective of a future influenced viewpoint of utter disdain.  
In other words you seem to be making a judgment about Billy's mother's behavior and Bobby Bare's defense of it from a "modern day" and more liberal perspective when, in actuality, in 1949 or 1950 when this situation happened, many women and probably some men would have agreed with Billy's mother's behavior if given a chance.  It is highly possible that if Billy's mother would not have punished Billy because of his erection (because of the erroneous way of thinking back then by many people in our society) the other women and girls would have felt highly insulted.  
Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying their thinking and the resultant actions were right.  I'm saying that perhaps the women were very much affected by the thinking of their time.  
You're right I am voicing an opinion about Bobby Bare's post.  It is my interpretation of what he wrote and not Bobby Bare's actual words.  BB is the only one who can tell us if my interpretation is the same as the one he intended.  Once again, making an interpretation of BB's words, it seems as though I am correct in my interpretation of what he wrote.  
 
You wrote:
"You are now changing the subject back into a factual discussion about historical matters, not normative positions.  I don't mind if you do that.  I just call upon you to recognize the difference.  Two different kinds of discussions."
 
MW, I do recognize the difference.  
If you think about it though, those normative positions  are or were part of historical matters in the sense of societal ideas and beliefs that were considered established in those times and the perspective many people in our society had at that time and the resultant actions of those people based on and because of those established societal ideas and beliefs.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #49 on: Sep 16th, 2011, 5:36am »
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on Sep 15th, 2011, 4:48pm, MW wrote:

 
 
At the risk of contradiction, here's what Bobby said:
 
Quote:Maybe the mother took drastic action, but one must realize that in a situation like this, which was supposed to be non-sexual, one could not tolerate a teeage boy displaying an erection in front of all those respectable women.  
 
So in a way the boy was shaming his mother in front of her friends, so she was rightly angry. "  
 
 
Italics furnished.  Now, I wasn't born yesterday...did he say "rightly angry"?  That's a normative argument, unqualified as to any temper of the times historical discussion.  That's a defense of a position.  I am not only a (retired) professor of political philosophy, but a licensed attorney as well, with years of practice behind me.  I think I know the difference between factual speech and polemical argument, your attempts at trying to rehabilitate his position notwithstanding.
 

 
MW, I don't think that you would make a good lawyer.  Grin
 
I didn't justify what the mother did, as you are implying.  In fact I did say in that post which you quote, and which anyone can see, that the mother took drastic action. I made this clear in my first sentence.
What I did say was that the mother was rightly angry at the boy for shaming her in front of her friends by his behaviour. But I never justified her action, quite the contrary, as I said that her reaction was drastic, that is extreme.
 
So even though I made that post in a half humorous way, you still can't fault me in it, because of your misinterpretation, and if we ended in a court of law you will lose the case.  Smiley
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