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   Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
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Bobby Bare
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Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« on: Sep 6th, 2011, 5:21am »
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I don't know if this was posted on this forum before, but is an interesting account of boys taking nude swimming lessons in front of female relatives and their friends in early sixties.
I suppose this is a continuation of the Dear Abbey Nude Swimming Double Standard thread. Which shows that everybody took this double standard for granted in those days, except some of the boys of course.
 
“Do You Recall Me Watching You Swim Naked a Few Years Ago?"
 
I took swimming lessons at our local YMCA from 1961-66. Our classes were grouped by age. The teens beyond the age of 12 or 13 were given some privacy, as observers were discouraged from entering the pool area. I don't think there was actually a formal policy, it was just a prevailing custom that moms, sisters, and others did not go in when the "older boys" were practicing or having classes.
 
I know as a 13-year-old in 8th grade, when girls and moms could still observe us, I was getting quite "developed." I felt VERY EMBARRASSED to see girls in school sitting next to me that had seen me bare the day before at the Y. And well into high school they had good memories. I dated a girl when I was 16 in 11th grade. On our first date she commented, "Do you recall me watching you swim naked a few years ago?" I felt a sense of unfairness and shame over the situation.
 
This particular girl was the sister of another boy on the team. She had a crush on me and relished the chance to go with her mother to our classes. She was a regular spectator from about 6th thru 8th grade. During these years I went thru puberty and she later told me that she kept track of my "size" and pubic hair development. When she told me this we were both 14. She was disappointed that her days of observing me were now over.
 
I have two sisters and one brother. My sisters are one year younger and four years older. I think that I felt most uncomfortable being naked in front of my sister closest my age. She was the one who brought friends to the classes. Sometimes my mom would say "No" or only let her bring one girl. Mom would say something like, "Paul is embarrassed enough without you bringing four friends along. Just let Susan come." The logic being that bringing four friends was pushing the limits of propriety somehow.
 
I didn't much care that my older sister saw me. The age difference for some reason made me less self-conscious with her. Not that I liked it, though, even with her seeing me.
 
I was not usually overtly teased by my female classmates who had seen me naked. The girls tended to giggle among themselves about it. A girl who said too much directly about it to a boy was considered to be “loose” or “easy.” But when a girl would look at me and smile as I got up to give a book report in front of the class, there was no doubt in my mind she was picturing me as I appeared naked the day before at swim class.
 
I recall asking my mom and sister to stop attending my classes when I was 12. I began to feel very uncomfortable being naked around females as puberty set in and so did the other boys. We still had female lifeguards/instructors even up to age 17. I don't think any of us boys really liked the forced nudity, even at younger ages. But it was the way things were done. You just temporarily abandoned modesty if you wanted to swim at the YMCA. I used to feel very embarrassed if a girl in my school classes had seen me swimming naked the day before.
 
My Dad was on our YMCA's board of directors at the time I was taking lessons. He had absolutely no sympathy when I complained about how embarrassing it was being nude in front of sisters, moms, and other females my age. He had experienced the same thing as a boy and, "It didn't hurt me," he used to say. He said, "Concentrate on swimming and forget who is watching." Like I really could forget having perhaps 25 females seeing my penis at ages 11-13. And I did have erections a few times. Just awful if I couldn't get in the water quickly.
 
To me the strangest part of this was the atmosphere of extreme modesty in our house. If I was even caught in the upstairs hallway in my underpants, I was reprimanded. An hour before, I might have been naked in front of Mom & my sister at the Y. But heaven forbid they should see me that way at home. I could never figure out what the difference was? Dad would just say that modesty was more important in the home. Go figure?
 
Some of the other guys in the class talked about it one day and the consensus was that "this sucks, those women shouldn't be allowed to watch us if we have to swim naked at our age." Our only consolation was that in September we would enter 9th grade. For all high school classes the Y locked the observation area and we would not have to be nude in front of all our families.
 
I remember feeling very violated. It was all I could do to hold back tears of shame that she knew all my secrets of puberty. Also resentful of the YMCA for setting us up like that, having no respect for our modesty. The people who ran the Y just didn't "get it" that girls this age would experience a sexual thrill seeing boys their age naked.
 
I wished I could see the girls naked, but that was strictly forbidden. My sister also took lessons at the same Y on a different day, but all girls wore modest one-piece suits. And no guy would dare go in their locker room. Oh, the unfairness of it all, I thought.
 
My brother, the youngest child, endured swimming lessons naked until age 11. He was more rebellious than me and just made an awful fuss about continuing naked after he showed signs of early puberty. Dad even spanked him a few times over it. But he didn't care. "No way am I going bare-assed in front of all those females," he used to say. Finally Dad gave up in disgust. So he didn't face the humiliation in 7th & 8th grades like I did.
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henri
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #1 on: Sep 6th, 2011, 11:33am »
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I really am ond of these kind of stuff, and always the same questions remain, as for instance, did you have an hardon in front of the girls (or one of your classmates) ?
« Last Edit: Sep 6th, 2011, 11:34am by henri » IP Logged
LadyLover
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #2 on: Sep 6th, 2011, 11:52am »
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Bobby, thanks for posting this tale. Sometimes when I read an account like this, I regret my puritanical New England upbringing. It would be nice to be so comfortable around women that even being nude in front of them wouldn’t normally embarrass me.  On the other hand, my sheltered childhood adds spice to even relatively tame situations with women and magnifies my enjoyment of CFNM.
 
Your post reminds me of an almost-CFNM situation I experienced when I was a young teen:
 
At the end of each summer season, our town’s outdoor municipal pool held a public contest. Swim class students competed in various races for prizes in front of an audience of a few dozen parents and other family members. This particular year, I had finished warming up and was sitting on the slanted concrete apron around the pool when I suddenly got an erection.  I’m not sure what got me going. My eyes had probably lingered too long on the feminine curves of a High School lifeguard.
 
Back in the 70s, boys wore bathing trunks which were basically waterproof underpants with a drawstring around the waist. They were tight and left very little to the imagination. On that particular day, I was wearing a light blue swimsuit and was mortified to see, when I glanced down, that my excited cock was pointing up and out. The shape was clearly outlined by the front of my wet trunks!
 
At that moment, the head lifeguard blew her whistle and the shrill note was joined by the other lifeguards.  This was the signal for all boys and girls to get out of the pool so the races could begin. I experienced one of those “Oh shit!” moments that makes a kid wonder, “Why does this always happen to me?” Now that the whistles had blown, if I went back in the cold water to ease my hard-on, I risked being rebuked by a lifeguard. My dad was in the audience, and embarrassing him meant a severe spanking when we got home. Also, the last thing a kid with a raging hard-on wants to do is call attention to themselves!
 
I hid the problem as best as I could by drawing my legs up and nonchalantly crossing my arms over my lap. I was trying to calm myself and relax when I experienced another “Oh shit!” moment: my name was called for the first race. What could I do? I swallowed hard, stood, and walked to the end of the pool while looking straight forward and not making eye contact with anyone. Bent forward at the end of the pool with my hands over my head in the dive position, I felt like every eye was aimed at the bulge in my shorts. What a relief when the starter finally blew the whistle and I jumped into the water!
 
No one ever mentioned my public display. To this day, I still wonder if I could have gotten away with a quick dip in the pool before the races started.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #3 on: Sep 6th, 2011, 4:14pm »
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Great post, Bobby!
 
Boy, the attitude is sure different in this similar situation. Interesting how wide the difference in opinion.  
 
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #4 on: Sep 6th, 2011, 5:59pm »
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What seems to me the more funny in the account of "Bobby bare" at the beguinning of the discussion are the ideas of the father when he was considering that it was not a big deal for his sons to swim naked in a YMCA center being exposed to the view of some women, his mother of course but also his sisters, their girls classmates, the mothers of other boys and so on, while he did not allow his sons to walk naked at home when they were going to the bathroom or even undressed in underwears because fron his point of view, it was not decent to be undressed at home.  
 
So he was prude at home but did not mind about nudity of young boys at the YMCA center for swimming lessons in the nude with spectators.
I presume that it was also because he had known himself that situation when he was young at a YMCA center.
 
Nevertheless I have noticed that if a boy as it was the case for the younger son was really reluctant to swim naked in front of a female audience, he was not forced by his father to do it. So it was possible to refuse that situation at least at 11 or 12 age.
 
I notice also that even if the older son was more obedient and did not dare like his brother to object, he was not forced to swim naked in front of an audience after 13 or 14 age since older boys had more privacy by decision of the YMCA staff. It was better than nothing.  
« Last Edit: Sep 6th, 2011, 6:08pm by easter_man_10 » IP Logged
Bobby Bare
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #5 on: Sep 7th, 2011, 4:17pm »
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LadyLover, I know exactly what you mean. Those speedos, especially of the thin material type  were very revealing, and to get an erection in them was the ultimate embarrassment.
They were so thin material that when they were wet they were almost transparent.  
Of course they were attractive to the girls, who could compare packages and different shapes.  Grin
 
Easterman, I also find it funny that it was considered as normal for boys to swim naked, even in front of female relatives and their friends, but not acceptable at home for the same boys to show themselves naked, or even  in just underwear.
I think that this reasoning was universally acceptable at that time, maybe because the older generation males only knew swimming in the nude, so for them it was natural and normal. But they had to keep modesty and be decently dressed outside of the swimming environment.
Also teen boys up to the age mentioned in this account were still considered as kids, even though they were into puberty, and so it was not considered a big deal by adults if girls and women watched them swimming nude.
Of course it was only considered as a big deal by some of the boys themselves, as the account here says, especially at the older age.
But they could do nothing about it because they had to do what the parents and elders said.
Again this was all to the advantage, and enjoyment, of the girls.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #6 on: Sep 7th, 2011, 6:49pm »
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on Sep 6th, 2011, 5:21am, Bobby_Bare wrote:
I don't know if this was posted on this forum before, but is an interesting account of boys taking nude swimming lessons in front of female relatives and their friends in early sixties.
I suppose this is a continuation of the Dear Abbey Nude Swimming Double Standard thread. Which shows that everybody took this double standard for granted in those days, except some of the boys of course.
 
“Do You Recall Me Watching You Swim Naked a Few Years Ago?"
 
I took swimming lessons at our local YMCA from 1961-66. Our classes were grouped by age. The teens beyond the age of 12 or 13 were given some privacy, as observers were discouraged from entering the pool area. I don't think there was actually a formal policy, it was just a prevailing custom that moms, sisters, and others did not go in when the "older boys" were practicing or having classes.
 
I know as a 13-year-old in 8th grade, when girls and moms could still observe us, I was getting quite "developed." I felt VERY EMBARRASSED to see girls in school sitting next to me that had seen me bare the day before at the Y. And well into high school they had good memories. I dated a girl when I was 16 in 11th grade. On our first date she commented, "Do you recall me watching you swim naked a few years ago?" I felt a sense of unfairness and shame over the situation.
 
This particular girl was the sister of another boy on the team. She had a crush on me and relished the chance to go with her mother to our classes. She was a regular spectator from about 6th thru 8th grade. During these years I went thru puberty and she later told me that she kept track of my "size" and pubic hair development. When she told me this we were both 14. She was disappointed that her days of observing me were now over.
 
I have two sisters and one brother. My sisters are one year younger and four years older. I think that I felt most uncomfortable being naked in front of my sister closest my age. She was the one who brought friends to the classes. Sometimes my mom would say "No" or only let her bring one girl. Mom would say something like, "Paul is embarrassed enough without you bringing four friends along. Just let Susan come." The logic being that bringing four friends was pushing the limits of propriety somehow.
 
I didn't much care that my older sister saw me. The age difference for some reason made me less self-conscious with her. Not that I liked it, though, even with her seeing me.
 
I was not usually overtly teased by my female classmates who had seen me naked. The girls tended to giggle among themselves about it. A girl who said too much directly about it to a boy was considered to be “loose” or “easy.” But when a girl would look at me and smile as I got up to give a book report in front of the class, there was no doubt in my mind she was picturing me as I appeared naked the day before at swim class.
 
I recall asking my mom and sister to stop attending my classes when I was 12. I began to feel very uncomfortable being naked around females as puberty set in and so did the other boys. We still had female lifeguards/instructors even up to age 17. I don't think any of us boys really liked the forced nudity, even at younger ages. But it was the way things were done. You just temporarily abandoned modesty if you wanted to swim at the YMCA. I used to feel very embarrassed if a girl in my school classes had seen me swimming naked the day before.
 
My Dad was on our YMCA's board of directors at the time I was taking lessons. He had absolutely no sympathy when I complained about how embarrassing it was being nude in front of sisters, moms, and other females my age. He had experienced the same thing as a boy and, "It didn't hurt me," he used to say. He said, "Concentrate on swimming and forget who is watching." Like I really could forget having perhaps 25 females seeing my penis at ages 11-13. And I did have erections a few times. Just awful if I couldn't get in the water quickly.
 
To me the strangest part of this was the atmosphere of extreme modesty in our house. If I was even caught in the upstairs hallway in my underpants, I was reprimanded. An hour before, I might have been naked in front of Mom & my sister at the Y. But heaven forbid they should see me that way at home. I could never figure out what the difference was? Dad would just say that modesty was more important in the home. Go figure?
 
Some of the other guys in the class talked about it one day and the consensus was that "this sucks, those women shouldn't be allowed to watch us if we have to swim naked at our age." Our only consolation was that in September we would enter 9th grade. For all high school classes the Y locked the observation area and we would not have to be nude in front of all our families.
 
I remember feeling very violated. It was all I could do to hold back tears of shame that she knew all my secrets of puberty. Also resentful of the YMCA for setting us up like that, having no respect for our modesty. The people who ran the Y just didn't "get it" that girls this age would experience a sexual thrill seeing boys their age naked.
 
I wished I could see the girls naked, but that was strictly forbidden. My sister also took lessons at the same Y on a different day, but all girls wore modest one-piece suits. And no guy would dare go in their locker room. Oh, the unfairness of it all, I thought.
 
My brother, the youngest child, endured swimming lessons naked until age 11. He was more rebellious than me and just made an awful fuss about continuing naked after he showed signs of early puberty. Dad even spanked him a few times over it. But he didn't care. "No way am I going bare-assed in front of all those females," he used to say. Finally Dad gave up in disgust. So he didn't face the humiliation in 7th & 8th grades like I did.

 
Bobby,
I don't know who wrote this story but I highly suspect it isn't completely true because there is one glaring mistake in it.
Although, I have never personally experienced a situation at a YMCA where females watched males swim naked, I am willing to consider the doubtful possibility that this existed years ago.  In the story, there is, as previously mentioned a mistake that is invalidated by substantiated history.  
 
I quote from the post:
 
"My sister also took lessons at the same Y on a different day, but all girls wore modest one-piece suits."
 
It was a matter of YMCA policy that females never exercised at a YMCA and this included swimming.  YMCA's were for males only.  Females went to the YWCA.  Everywhere a YMCA was built, a YWCA was built somewhere nearby (usually within a couple of city blocks).  This was their policy years ago and everywhere I went in those years this always held true.  It was a matter of common knowledge.  Historically speaking, at no point would the YMCA interrupt the swimming of the males so that females could swim at the YMCA because, in fact, in every city where there was a YMCA, there was also a YWCA where there was a swimming pool and every other type of exercise equipment similar to those found at a YMCA.  Consequently, why would females swim at a YMCA?
« Last Edit: Sep 8th, 2011, 2:10pm by HowlingDawg » IP Logged
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #7 on: Sep 7th, 2011, 11:01pm »
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Quote:
It was a matter of YMCA policy that females never exercised at a YMCA and this included swimming.  YMCA's were for males only.  Females went to the YWCA.  Everywhere a YMCA was built, a YWCA was built somewhere nearby (usually within a couple of city blocks).  This was their policy years ago and everywhere I went in those years this always held true.  It was a matter of common knowledge.  Historically speaking, at no point would the YMCA interrupt the swimming of the males so that females could swim at the YMCA because, in fact, in every city and town where there was a YMCA, there was also a YWCA where there was a swimming pool and every other type of exercise equipment similar to those found at a YMCA.  Consequently, why would females swim at a YMCA?

We used to get this a lot more, the generalization from a poster's own experience to universal truth, and the invocation of "common knowledge" rather than a specific citation.  
 
Citations are easier now that so much more is on the Internet.  
 
However on this specifically, it is Not True. YMCAs and YMCAs are not salt and pepper shakers, nor were they built by a mysterious Them. Some places had one, some another, but their construction was not coordinated. YMCAs were locally financed and managed under the umbrella of the National Council, and the YWCAs were a separate organization, with stronger national control.  
 
One reliable poster here has often stated that he did have nude classes with a woman instructor, but at the YWCA.  
 
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #8 on: Sep 8th, 2011, 2:46am »
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on Sep 7th, 2011, 6:49pm, HowlingDawg wrote:

 
Bobby,
I don't know who wrote this story but I highly suspect it isn't completely true because there is one glaring mistake in it.
Although, I have never personally experienced a situation at a YMCA where females watched males swim naked, I am willing to consider the doubtful possibility that this existed years ago.  In the story, there is, as previously mentioned a mistake that is invalidated by substantiated history.  
 
I quote from the post:
 
"My sister also took lessons at the same Y on a different day, but all girls wore modest one-piece suits."
 
It was a matter of YMCA policy that females never exercised at a YMCA and this included swimming.  YMCA's were for males only.  Females went to the YWCA.  Everywhere a YMCA was built, a YWCA was built somewhere nearby (usually within a couple of city blocks).  This was their policy years ago and everywhere I went in those years this always held true.  It was a matter of common knowledge.  Historically speaking, at no point would the YMCA interrupt the swimming of the males so that females could swim at the YMCA because, in fact, in every city and town where there was a YMCA, there was also a YWCA where there was a swimming pool and every other type of exercise equipment similar to those found at a YMCA.  Consequently, why would females swim at a YMCA?

 
HDawg, I think you are wrong. There were many places which had only a YMCA, and no YWCA.
In fact from what I gather there were very few YW's compared to YM's.
I think there were arrangements for different classes at many YMCA's, including separate classes for juniors, as in this account, especially if they were learners. So it would have been possible that there were also separate classes and set times for females where there were no YWCA's.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #9 on: Sep 8th, 2011, 3:25am »
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"Bobby Bare" :  
 in one of your last message, you said something which is contradictory with the story itself.
 
I quote you :" Also teen boys up to the age mentioned in this account were still considered as kids, even though they were into puberty, and so it was not considered a big deal by adults if girls and women watched them swimming nude"  
 
"Of course it was only considered as a big deal by some of the boys themselves, as the account here says, especially at the older age.
But they could do nothing about it because they had to do what the parents and elders said.
Again this was all to the advantage, and enjoyment, of the girls".
 
You are right with the first part of your comment but not the second,  it is not exact to say that the boys  could do nothing, we have the instance of the younger son who refused to continue to have swimming lessons in the nude after 11age if I rememberr well and he succeeded in his refusal, his father did not force him!
 
so at least in this story, a reluctant boy could object with sucess! girls could only take advantage on boys who were too obedient to their parents.
 
I must say that I am surprised that the father was so less authoritarian with his son, at that time, it was not so common in families but it is related in the story!
 
I want to add that the comment of "Howling Dawg" seems to me a little convincing  because I have read often that the YMCA centers were until the last 60's devoted only to swimming lessons for boys and men, the girls might go elsewhere to learn swimming.  
 
true or not?
 
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #10 on: Sep 8th, 2011, 4:37am »
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on Sep 7th, 2011, 11:01pm, Caipora wrote:

We used to get this a lot more, the generalization from a poster's own experience to universal truth, and the invocation of "common knowledge" rather than a specific citation.  
 
Citations are easier now that so much more is on the Internet.  
 
However on this specifically, it is Not True. YMCAs and YMCAs are not salt and pepper shakers, nor were they built by a mysterious Them. Some places had one, some another, but their construction was not coordinated. YMCAs were locally financed and managed under the umbrella of the National Council, and the YWCAs were a separate organization, with stronger national control.  
 
One reliable poster here has often stated that he did have nude classes with a woman instructor, but at the YWCA.  
 
 - Caipora

 
When I wrote my previous post, I left out some information because I was called away.  I thought I would be able to edit the post before anyone saw it because I was under the impression I would be away from my desk for only a minute or two.  As it turned out, I was away from my desk for several hours.  
In your correction of my statement, you are thinking of the way that YMCA's are today in that many of them are located in suburban areas.  This was not the case in the 1960's and before.  Back then, most YMCA's were located in central business districts.  And, from my experience there was a YWCA somewhere nearby.  I never stated this was a "universal truth", I meant to indicate I was basing what I wrote on my personal experience.  If I didn't convey that clearly, I apologize for the misunderstanding.  
Prior to 1976, my personal experience included trips to several cities where a friend of mine and I stayed in YMCA Hotels.  To the best of my memory, in each place there was also a YWCA not far away.  These trips happened over the span of about 5 years.  
I never said that what the author wrote wasn't real.  I said that I doubt what was written based on my experiences.  From those experiences, in any YMCA I was ever in the following statements were consistently true:
Females were not allowed to go beyond the YMCA lobby;
Females were not allowed to exercise at a YMCA;
To access the pool, it was necessary to go through either the locker room or the shower room or both.  There was never any access to the pool except by way of those routes.  There was no access to the pool area from the immediate outside;
Males were never made to allow women to swim in the YMCA pool unless it was a "Family YMCA".  The first family YMCA I saw was in the New York area in the early 1970's.  In the mid to late 1960's and before, there were no "Family YMCA's" to my knowledge.  
Here is a list of YMCA's I patronized between 1971 and 1976.  At each of the following YMCA's, what I've written above was correct:
 
The San Francisco YMCA;
The MacArthur Park YMCA, L.A., California;
The Glendale YMCA, Glendale, California;
The Hollywood YMCA, Hollywood, California;
The YMCA aka "Military YMCA", San Diego, California;
The Seattle YMCA, Seattle, Washington (downtown area);
The YMCA, Denver Colorado (downtown area);
The YMCA, Omaha, Nebraska (downtown area);
The YMCA, New Orleans, Louisiana;  
The YMCA, Chicago, Illinois;
The YMCA, Kansas City, Missouri (downtown area);
The YMCA, Kansas City, Kansas (downtown area);
The YMCA, Starkville, Mississippi (downtown area);
The YMCA, Buffalo, New York (downtown area);
The YMCA, Manhattan, New York;  
 
In each of these places I either swam in their pools or used exercise facilities.  In some of these places I stayed in the YMCA Hotel for as much as 4 nights.  I stayed only 1 or 2 nights in some of them.  I don't remember ever seeing any sign indicating the possibility of females using the facilities in those days at any of these places.  As mentioned previously, my visits to these places happened intermittently over the span of 5 years.  A friend of mine and I "backpacked" as we "hitch hiked", road buses and trains across the country between late March and early November of each year.  There's actually a CFNM story that happened during one of those trips but I'll save that for another post.  
 
I never meant to indicate that what the author of the story posted by Bobby Bare wasn't real.  I did, however, intend to say that what the author wrote was not in the realm of my experiences at YMCA's and those experiences were rather extensive.  
 
Prior to the mid 1970's I never heard of a female patronizing a YMCA unless the YMCA was a "Family YMCA" and there weren't very many of those.  Notice I'm not saying this never happened but it was common knowledge that females did not go to YMCA's.  I would be very interested in knowing where this YMCA the author of the story wrote about was located.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #11 on: Sep 8th, 2011, 4:43am »
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on Sep 8th, 2011, 2:46am, Bobby_Bare wrote:

 
HDawg, I think you are wrong. There were many places which had only a YMCA, and no YWCA.
In fact from what I gather there were very few YW's compared to YM's.
I think there were arrangements for different classes at many YMCA's, including separate classes for juniors, as in this account, especially if they were learners. So it would have been possible that there were also separate classes and set times for females where there were no YWCA's.

 
Bobby,
Keep in mind that we are talking about 40 to 50 years ago.  Some (if not many) of those buildings have been torn down.  Actually back in the early 1970's and before, in my experience, there was one YWCA located near most of the places I went where there were centrally located YMCA's.  Unfortunately, prior to the 1960's most women didn't use them from my experience.  
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #12 on: Sep 8th, 2011, 9:44am »
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HDawg,
All the Y's that you mention are in big cities, where it is obvious that there would be female Y's as well as male Y's.
But this was not the case with small towns, where it was more likely that one would only find one Y,  so the females had to make use of the pool at set times for them.
In fact there were many places where there were no Y's at all.
So Caipora is right when he says that you are making a generalization, or sweeping statement, from your limited knowledge.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #13 on: Sep 8th, 2011, 10:05am »
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on Sep 7th, 2011, 11:01pm, Caipora wrote:

We used to get this a lot more, the generalization from a poster's own experience to universal truth, and the invocation of "common knowledge" rather than a specific citation.  
 
Citations are easier now that so much more is on the Internet.  
 
However on this specifically, it is Not True. YMCAs and YMCAs are not salt and pepper shakers, nor were they built by a mysterious Them. Some places had one, some another, but their construction was not coordinated. YMCAs were locally financed and managed under the umbrella of the National Council, and the YWCAs were a separate organization, with stronger national control.  
 
One reliable poster here has often stated that he did have nude classes with a woman instructor, but at the YWCA.  
 
 - Caipora

 
I have also seen and heard several accounts where boys did learn to swim at YWCA's. It is strange, or funny, that even though the women's Y had no nudity rule the boys who took the swimming lessons there had to be nude.  
Of course this was done with femle instructors, and no surprise that mothers and other females would be watching the progress of the boys during their classes.
There were several reasons why young boys took swimming lessons by female instructors and in a female environment, both as in the account above and also at the women's Y.  But I will go into that in another post.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #14 on: Sep 8th, 2011, 10:31am »
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on Sep 8th, 2011, 3:25am, easter_man_10 wrote:
"Bobby Bare" :  
 in one of your last message, you said something which is contradictory with the story itself.
 
I quote you :" Also teen boys up to the age mentioned in this account were still considered as kids, even though they were into puberty, and so it was not considered a big deal by adults if girls and women watched them swimming nude"  
 
"Of course it was only considered as a big deal by some of the boys themselves, as the account here says, especially at the older age.
But they could do nothing about it because they had to do what the parents and elders said.
Again this was all to the advantage, and enjoyment, of the girls".
 
You are right with the first part of your comment but not the second,  it is not exact to say that the boys  could do nothing, we have the instance of the younger son who refused to continue to have swimming lessons in the nude after 11age if I rememberr well and he succeeded in his refusal, his father did not force him!
 
so at least in this story, a reluctant boy could object with sucess! girls could only take advantage on boys who were too obedient to their parents.
 
I must say that I am surprised that the father was so less authoritarian with his son, at that time, it was not so common in families but it is related in the story!
 
I want to add that the comment of "Howling Dawg" seems to me a little convincing  because I have read often that the YMCA centers were until the last 60's devoted only to swimming lessons for boys and men, the girls might go elsewhere to learn swimming.  
 
true or not?
 
 

 
Easterman,
  There is no contradiction at all.  The younger boy was spared the nudity embarrassment in front of females because his father decided so.  
 
In fact it is you who is being contradictory here by saying that the boys could refuse to participate all by themselves, and at the same time saying that you are surprised that the father allowed it for the younger boy.
 
So there is no contradiction in the account, or what I have said, that the boys had no choice. They had to do what their parents, or authorities told them to do.  
It was the same about the compulsary nudity for swimming for boys at High Schools or at the Y's. They simply could not refuse, even though many did not like it.
 
As for your last question, I have commented about it in my previous posts.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #15 on: Sep 8th, 2011, 2:04pm »
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on Sep 8th, 2011, 9:44am, Bobby_Bare wrote:
HDawg,
All the Y's that you mention are in big cities, where it is obvious that there would be female Y's as well as male Y's.
But this was not the case with small towns, where it was more likely that one would only find one Y,  so the females had to make use of the pool at set times for them.
In fact there were many places where there were no Y's at all.
So Caipora is right when he says that you are making a generalization, or sweeping statement, from your limited knowledge.

 
Bobby,
Actually, back in the early 1970's because of my travels, I was in several small towns and you're right in that most of them did not have YMCA's or YWCA's.  That was one of my points.  Back then, YMCA's were usually located in cities and more specifically in the central part of those cities.  It was unusual to find a YMCA in a rural area, a "satellite community", a suburb or a small or even medium size town (by population).  The only YMCA I remember seeing in a smaller populated area was in Glendale, California which, back then was probably a medium size town (by population) and it is right next to L.A. so it is thought of as a part of L.A..  
 
I was not really making a "sweeping statement" because I tried to make it clear that my opinion was based solely on my own experience and observations during those years.  It could very well be that there are YMCA's located somewhere that are as described by the author in his stories.  All I'm saying is that I have never encountered them.  At no time have I ever said what the author wrote didn't happen and I would not say that.  
 
One question: What was the reason, according to your understanding, swimming instructions were given to boys at a YWCA instead of a YMCA?  This is something else I've never experienced.  
 
Incidentally, I forgot to add to my list above Boston, Mass., St. Louis, MO., and Philadelphia, Penn..  
 
In addition, in 1966, my brother and I went to a YMCA in Little Rock, Arkansas which was, as I think of it, another unusual example of a YMCA in a smaller town.    
« Last Edit: Sep 8th, 2011, 2:16pm by HowlingDawg » IP Logged
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #16 on: Sep 8th, 2011, 10:42pm »
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Howling Dog,  
 
I overreacted to your post. For years we had people posting "Women were never allowed in the YMCA", and it took endless posting of citations from books, magazines, and newspapers before that stopped.  
 
That was tedious, and I'm glad it stopped, and don't want to see it back.  
 
Personal recollections, however, are illuminating, Everyone's experience was a bit different, and memories open up new territory instead of rehashing arguments that have long been settled.  
 
Take a look at the old postings. There are plenty of quotations from books, manuals, and pamphlets explaining the actual reasons, rather than  "woulda, coulda, shoulda" speculations.  
 
As an example, vistors' galleries with separate entrances were American Public Health Association standards to keep dirty street shoes off pool decks. APHA standards also called for boys to swim in the nude.  
 
There are plenty of old newspaper clippings about showing women's hours at the YMCA. The trend towards the suburbs is documented in a YMCA National Council pamphlet from the 1950, predating the population move that the Ys followed.  
 
The YMCA National Council Archives are at the University of Minnesota. I don't recall the location of the YWCA archives, but I believe I've posted that, too.  
 
There are objective answers to a lot of these questions, and they can be found.  
 
The topic shows how standards have changed from one era to another. Trying to guess or justify why decisions were made, from today's perspective, doesn't work. The 1950s were another country.  
 
Looking it up in the library, though, does work. Lots of people have done so and posted their findings, and you would save a lot of speculation checking first.  
 
 - Caipora  
 
 
 
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #17 on: Sep 9th, 2011, 2:48am »
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on Sep 8th, 2011, 10:42pm, Caipora wrote:
Howling Dog,  
 
I overreacted to your post. For years we had people posting "Women were never allowed in the YMCA", and it took endless posting of citations from books, magazines, and newspapers before that stopped.  
 
That was tedious, and I'm glad it stopped, and don't want to see it back.  
 
Personal recollections, however, are illuminating, Everyone's experience was a bit different, and memories open up new territory instead of rehashing arguments that have long been settled.  
 
Take a look at the old postings. There are plenty of quotations from books, manuals, and pamphlets explaining the actual reasons, rather than  "woulda, coulda, shoulda" speculations.  
 
As an example, vistors' galleries with separate entrances were American Public Health Association standards to keep dirty street shoes off pool decks. APHA standards also called for boys to swim in the nude.  
 
There are plenty of old newspaper clippings about showing women's hours at the YMCA. The trend towards the suburbs is documented in a YMCA National Council pamphlet from the 1950, predating the population move that the Ys followed.  
 
The YMCA National Council Archives are at the University of Minnesota. I don't recall the location of the YWCA archives, but I believe I've posted that, too.  
 
There are objective answers to a lot of these questions, and they can be found.  
 
The topic shows how standards have changed from one era to another. Trying to guess or justify why decisions were made, from today's perspective, doesn't work. The 1950s were another country.  
 
Looking it up in the library, though, does work. Lots of people have done so and posted their findings, and you would save a lot of speculation checking first.  
 
 - Caipora  
 
 
 
 

 
Caipora,
All things considered, there is only one place where I find myself in disagreement with your post.  The 1950's were not another country.  The 1950's were another universe!
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #18 on: Sep 9th, 2011, 6:17am »
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to "Bobby Bare"  
 
I think that you are wrong by telling me that it was me who is doing a contradictory comment about the attitude of the father and the younger son.  
 
I am not an obstinate man but I am sure that I am right on the point that I have underlined.
 
Read again as I did the relation at the beguinninbg of this discussion.
 
It is clear that the father being  a member of the board of the YMCA, knew perfectly well how things were organized and that he was completely in agreement with the rule, not uncommun indeed, of the boys swimming lessons in the nude with women and girls as spectators at least until high school, when entering the 9th grade.  
 
So it is understandable that he did not take in account the complaints of his older son when he tried to explain that he was too much embarrassed to be swimming naked in front of female observers including girls classmates after 12 age.
 
And he had first the same attitude with his younger boy and he refused to listen to himwhen he told that he did not want to go again on the YMCA  center for swimming lessons because he did not want to be seen naked by women and girls at 12 age.
 
As he was a strict man, his first reaction was to reprimand the boy and to spank him but it was not enough to convince him to obey so eventually the father left his younger son do as he wanted, so it means that if a boy was more rebellious and lesss obedient, he could obtain to avoid to these swimming lessons in the nude.
 
But it was not really a decision of the father even if if course nothing was possible without his agreement.
 
So it was a counter-exemple about what we are many to think, that in the past boys were always force to obey to what adults, parents or teachers, wanted that they did !  
 
When you said that " So there is no contradiction in the account, or what I have said, that the boys had no choice. They had to do what their parents, or authorities told them to do.  
It was the same about the compulsary nudity for swimming for boys at High Schools or at the Y's. They simply could not refuse, even though many did not like it", it was not true competely in that relation .
 
Besides, in that relation, it was not said what was the opinion of the mother?  
 
« Last Edit: Sep 9th, 2011, 10:29am by easter_man_10 » IP Logged
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #19 on: Sep 10th, 2011, 2:30am »
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This topic always reminds me of my swimming lessons back in 1971, when I was in 7th grade (12 yrs old).
 
Both PE and swimming were strictly segregated, with the boys gym and girls gym on opposite sides of the building, and the swimming pool in the center.  Boys and girls got swimming lessons on alternate Wednesdays, boys one week, girls the next.
 
Nude swimming was the rule for us boys, but the girls wore standard one piece tanksuits.
 
Although there was never any mixing of boys and girls in the pool, it was not unusual for the girls gym teacher to visit the pool and/or shower area while we were swimming or showering, ostensibly for some urgent business with our coach.
This wasn't as exciting as it could have been, for she was much older, and resembled an eastern european olympic weightlifter.
 
When I complained to my dad about the apparent unfairness of us boys having to swim naked while the girls got to wear suits, he replied, "You got it backwards, son ... you guys GET to go skinny dippin', while those girls HAVE to wear those ugly, tight, uncomfortable suits."
 
That comment from my dad seemed to change my attitude forever.
 
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #20 on: Sep 10th, 2011, 5:54am »
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Unlike Easterman, I don't find anything unusual in the comment that the poster's father didn't have a problem with his son being seen by his daughters at the Y, but not at home.  
Just my opinion but it seems logical if you look at the fact that in a public setting, away from the possibility of direct contact there would be less chance of an incestual encounter than if the same nude boy would be exposed to his sisters in the home. That would have been and still is a concern that many parents would consider.
I can see a father forbidding nudity in the home, where the mere possibility of that nudity leading to physical contact between brother and sister becomes more likely, even if that likelyhood is miniscule. The incestual taboo is a very strong one.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #21 on: Sep 10th, 2011, 12:31pm »
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everybody's right and everybody's wrong.   Cool
On the one hand, MOST stories surfacing throughout the internet are F-A-K-E.   Yes, most stories.
BUT, on the bigger picture, there certainly wouldn't have been issue for either girls or boys, if such a thing would occur.  
So, for instance; the case of the YMCA in white plains.  WHere it started with just one mother staying because she didn't have any place to go.  And she was probably curious as well.  
Then, she brought a friend.  Until finally, there were at least 8 adult or teenage women, and another 6 children.  
I can also speak for overseas encounters; that generally mothers don't mind if their daughters see naked male youths.   Girls usually pretend to be disinterested.  So, they keep their curiosities concealed.
and finally, boys are almost always alright with it.  If you talk to any man who's seen this in South East Asia, they will all agree.   boys don't get upset when girls watch them in various stages of undress.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #22 on: Sep 11th, 2011, 2:17pm »
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on Sep 10th, 2011, 2:30am, glass4242 wrote:

 
...
 
When I complained to my dad about the apparent unfairness of us boys having to swim naked while the girls got to wear suits, he replied, "You got it backwards, son ... you guys GET to go skinny dippin', while those girls HAVE to wear those ugly, tight, uncomfortable suits."
 
That comment from my dad seemed to change my attitude forever.
 

 
That's one way of looking at it - what a great outlook! I know just what you mean about changing your attitude -it kind of makes me wish I could have been in that situation...
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #23 on: Sep 11th, 2011, 3:14pm »
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on Sep 10th, 2011, 12:31pm, Dan2 wrote:
everybody's right and everybody's wrong.   Cool
On the one hand, MOST stories surfacing throughout the internet are F-A-K-E.   Yes, most stories.
BUT, on the bigger picture, there certainly wouldn't have been issue for either girls or boys, if such a thing would occur.  
So, for instance; the case of the YMCA in white plains.  WHere it started with just one mother staying because she didn't have any place to go.  And she was probably curious as well.  
Then, she brought a friend.  Until finally, there were at least 8 adult or teenage women, and another 6 children.  
I can also speak for overseas encounters; that generally mothers don't mind if their daughters see naked male youths.   Girls usually pretend to be disinterested.  So, they keep their curiosities concealed.
and finally, boys are almost always alright with it.  If you talk to any man who's seen this in South East Asia, they will all agree.   boys don't get upset when girls watch them in various stages of undress.

 
Dan2,
I must have missed something.  Who mentioned "White Plains" and what post number was it?  I looked but could not find that post.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #24 on: Sep 11th, 2011, 3:17pm »
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on Sep 11th, 2011, 2:17pm, peterjf wrote:

 
That's one way of looking at it - what a great outlook! I know just what you mean about changing your attitude -it kind of makes me wish I could have been in that situation...

 
peterjf,
Actually, I always considered myself to have the advantage because I could be in very little or no clothing in certain situations where the females in my family and female friends had to stay dressed.  
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #25 on: Sep 11th, 2011, 4:53pm »
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on Sep 7th, 2011, 4:17pm, Bobby_Bare wrote:
LadyLover, I know exactly what you mean. Those speedos, especially of the thin material type  were very revealing, and to get an erection in them was the ultimate embarrassment.
They were so thin material that when they were wet they were almost transparent.  
Of course they were attractive to the girls, who could compare packages and different shapes.  Grin
 
Easterman, I also find it funny that it was considered as normal for boys to swim naked, even in front of female relatives and their friends, but not acceptable at home for the same boys to show themselves naked, or even  in just underwear.
I think that this reasoning was universally acceptable at that time, maybe because the older generation males only knew swimming in the nude, so for them it was natural and normal. But they had to keep modesty and be decently dressed outside of the swimming environment.
Also teen boys up to the age mentioned in this account were still considered as kids, even though they were into puberty, and so it was not considered a big deal by adults if girls and women watched them swimming nude.
Of course it was only considered as a big deal by some of the boys themselves, as the account here says, especially at the older age.
But they could do nothing about it because they had to do what the parents and elders said.
Again this was all to the advantage, and enjoyment, of the girls.

 
Bobby,
During my high school years, I attended a privately run "reform school" which was managed by an organization of people who were associated with a particular religious belief.  They were very strict with us and spankings were common but that's another story.  (By way of explanation, I was arrested at age 15 for attempting to buy marijuana from an undercover police officer whom I thought was my friend.  During the trial he lied when he said that I had also agreed to buy cocaine from him which was not true at all.   My parent's minister and my dad negotiated with the judge and the judge agreed to send me to the private reform school that was recommended by the minister instead of the state run reform school.)  
At that school we had a larger than Olympic size swimming pool.  I was on the swim team and during our practice sessions we always swam nude.  There were no females.  (The females who attended that school were in a different section of the complex but sometimes after school we would see them sitting in the commons area.)  For public swim meets we wore school issued swim suits.  They were similar in their design as the brief type "speedos" but the material was made in part from Cotton and I think Nylon.  They were a pale light green color and when they were wet they became translucent.  Because they were a relatively snug fit, when the wet material clung to our skin, the color of the skin could be seen through the wet material.  The skin color was affected by the pale green color of the material but none the less could be seen.  The wetness of the material which was somewhat thin would cling to our genitalia allowing it to be seen.  There was only one guy who used to pull at the material away from his genitalia.  He looked really silly doing this.  The rest of us didn't care.  And yes, I did notice people looking at our genitalia, especially the females.  
The reform school had an arrangement with 4 schools.  The nearest one was about 60 miles away, as I recall.  The one that was farthest away was about 150 miles from the reform school.  That school agreed to compete with us but we had to go there.  We were transported on a bus that, in addition to the student swimmers also carried at least two guards and sometimes three guards.  Sometimes one of the guards was female.  
During one of those meets between the races, I was sitting talking with a girl I found attractive and apparently she also found me attractive.  Her appearance and the way she was talking with me was giving me about 2/3rds of an erection.  I was called to go to the pool and as I stood up, my swim suit caught on a metal piece that was part of the bench, causing a rip in the side back hip area of the suit.  The swimming coach happened to be standing near when this happened and told me I would not be allowed to swim with the suit in the ripped condition and that he would get me another suit.  They carried a few spares.  He came back with the other suit and told me to give him the suit I was wearing.  We were not allowed to question authority at all because if we did we would receive a punishment usually in the form of swats with a long paddle.  This time, though, I asked if I should go to the locker room.  The swimming coach said "No, there's no one to go in there with you and  you guys are not allowed to go in there by yourselves..."  This was because of a security issue.  I then said "I don't want to embarrass the women."  There were several women with what I assumed to be their husbands and some younger high school and college age females sitting nearby.  The swimming coach turned to them and asked "Do any of you ladies care if he changes in front of you?"  The ones who answered all said they didn't care and "that's OK."  
I still was concerned about embarrassing them so I asked the swimming coach if I could have a towel to wrap around me so that I could change under it.  The swimming coach then became angry and impatient and said "Take off that suit and do it now!"  I immediately took off my suit and turned and saw that every female and some of the males were looking at me and specifically at the area of my genitals.  The swimming coach took my swim suit and then handed me the other suit.  After I put on the other suit the swimming coach said "It's too big.  I got the wrong size.  Give it back."  I handed it back to him expecting him to give me back the other suit but he walked away with both suits leaving me standing there naked.  I sat back down on the bench next to the girl I had been talking with.  I was used to being naked in front of females either at the beach or at home so it really didn't bother me.  An older woman (she was probably around 35) who was sitting in the row behind me, leaned forward and said "You're a very good looking young man."  I thanked her.  
Then the swimming coach came with the other suit.  I stood up and when I did a couple of people took pictures of me standing there naked.  I knew this because of the flashes from their cameras.  The swimming coach turned and gave one of them and angry look and then walked over to a man with a camera and said "What's wrong with you?"  The guy just shrugged his shoulders and smiled.  While he was doing this, I was still naked and waiting.  He brought back over the suit and told me to hurry up and put it on because I was swimming in the next race.  This suit was too snug but I wore it anyway.  When I got out of the water after the race, the suit was so snug that my penis and scrotum could easily be seen in their entirety through the  wet material.  No one seemed to mind and, in fact, everyone was very friendly.  
When I arrived back at the reform school I received 25 swats with a paddle on my bare bottom for arguing with the swimming coach.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #26 on: Sep 12th, 2011, 1:12am »
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on Sep 8th, 2011, 4:37am, HowlingDawg wrote:

 
When I wrote my previous post, I left out some information because I was called away.  I thought I would be able to edit the post before anyone saw it because I was under the impression I would be away from my desk for only a minute or two.  As it turned out, I was away from my desk for several hours.  
In your correction of my statement, you are thinking of the way that YMCA's are today in that many of them are located in suburban areas.  This was not the case in the 1960's and before.  Back then, most YMCA's were located in central business districts.  And, from my experience there was a YWCA somewhere nearby.  I never stated this was a "universal truth", I meant to indicate I was basing what I wrote on my personal experience.  If I didn't convey that clearly, I apologize for the misunderstanding.  
Prior to 1976, my personal experience included trips to several cities where a friend of mine and I stayed in YMCA Hotels.  To the best of my memory, in each place there was also a YWCA not far away.  These trips happened over the span of about 5 years.  
I never said that what the author wrote wasn't real.  I said that I doubt what was written based on my experiences.  From those experiences, in any YMCA I was ever in the following statements were consistently true:
Females were not allowed to go beyond the YMCA lobby;
Females were not allowed to exercise at a YMCA;
To access the pool, it was necessary to go through either the locker room or the shower room or both.  There was never any access to the pool except by way of those routes.  There was no access to the pool area from the immediate outside;
Males were never made to allow women to swim in the YMCA pool unless it was a "Family YMCA".  The first family YMCA I saw was in the New York area in the early 1970's.  In the mid to late 1960's and before, there were no "Family YMCA's" to my knowledge.  
Here is a list of YMCA's I patronized between 1971 and 1976.  At each of the following YMCA's, what I've written above was correct:
 
The San Francisco YMCA;
The MacArthur Park YMCA, L.A., California;
The Glendale YMCA, Glendale, California;
The Hollywood YMCA, Hollywood, California;
The YMCA aka "Military YMCA", San Diego, California;
The Seattle YMCA, Seattle, Washington (downtown area);
The YMCA, Denver Colorado (downtown area);
The YMCA, Omaha, Nebraska (downtown area);
The YMCA, New Orleans, Louisiana;  
The YMCA, Chicago, Illinois;
The YMCA, Kansas City, Missouri (downtown area);
The YMCA, Kansas City, Kansas (downtown area);
The YMCA, Starkville, Mississippi (downtown area);
The YMCA, Buffalo, New York (downtown area);
The YMCA, Manhattan, New York;  
 
In each of these places I either swam in their pools or used exercise facilities.  In some of these places I stayed in the YMCA Hotel for as much as 4 nights.  I stayed only 1 or 2 nights in some of them.  I don't remember ever seeing any sign indicating the possibility of females using the facilities in those days at any of these places.  As mentioned previously, my visits to these places happened intermittently over the span of 5 years.  A friend of mine and I "backpacked" as we "hitch hiked", road buses and trains across the country between late March and early November of each year.  There's actually a CFNM story that happened during one of those trips but I'll save that for another post.  
 
I never meant to indicate that what the author of the story posted by Bobby Bare wasn't real.  I did, however, intend to say that what the author wrote was not in the realm of my experiences at YMCA's and those experiences were rather extensive.  
 
Prior to the mid 1970's I never heard of a female patronizing a YMCA unless the YMCA was a "Family YMCA" and there weren't very many of those.  Notice I'm not saying this never happened but it was common knowledge that females did not go to YMCA's.  I would be very interested in knowing where this YMCA the author of the story wrote about was located.  

 
I have to back Bobby's depictions completely.  You only go back to the 70s, Dawg.  I can go back to the 1940s in Abington Pennsylvania.  The Y was located on Old York Road, just south of Susquehanna Rd.  There was no such thing as a YWCA...I suspect that was a post-war development.  The boys were required to swim nude.  Sisters, Mothers and their friends were allowed...natrually.  I say naturally, because it was bellieved that the female had no attraction to the naked male.  Knowing what I know now, that was a load of bullshit.
 
This was the reason why I never joined any activities at the YMCA.  Yes, I was one of those shy boys that y'all laughed at back when.  I never learned to swim until I had polio, after my family had moved to California in 1951.  Then, I had to learn as a part of my rehab activities.
 
Everything is as Bobby stated it, which is the reason why I hated the YMCA.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #27 on: Sep 12th, 2011, 3:08am »
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on Sep 12th, 2011, 1:12am, MW wrote:

 
I have to back Bobby's depictions completely.  You only go back to the 70s, Dawg.  I can go back to the 1940s in Abington Pennsylvania.  The Y was located on Old York Road, just south of Susquehanna Rd.  There was no such thing as a YWCA...I suspect that was a post-war development.  The boys were required to swim nude.  Sisters, Mothers and their friends were allowed...natrually.  I say naturally, because it was bellieved that the female had no attraction to the naked male.  Knowing what I know now, that was a load of bullshit.
 
This was the reason why I never joined any activities at the YMCA.  Yes, I was one of those shy boys that y'all laughed at back when.  I never learned to swim until I had polio, after my family had moved to California in 1951.  Then, I had to learn as a part of my rehab activities.
 
Everything is as Bobby stated it, which is the reason why I hated the YMCA.

 
MW,
Actually, the first time I ever went to a YMCA was in the 1950's with my brother and my Uncle (one of my dad's brothers).  I also went to a Y during the 1960's a number of times.  
At that time, there were two YMCA's located in San Diego.  Both of them were located in the downtown area.  One of them was more specifically for the military who stayed there in the YMCA Hotel and exercised in the gym and pool.  Civilians could go there and stay at the hotel too.  The other one was for civilians and also had a gym and a hotel.   There was also a YWCA not far from the "civilian YMCA".  
Both my dad and his brothers were veterans having been in the Navy.  Because of their veteran status we always went to the YMCA designated for military except once when we went to the civilian YMCA.  
My dad's brother has been a life long member of the YMCA having joined when he was 15 years old.  He is now in his 90's.  After reading the story posted by Bobby Bare and the pursuant posted discussion, earlier today I called my uncle and asked if he ever remembers a time when females watched males swim naked at the YMCA.  I then asked him to not make jokes because my Uncle can be a "joker" at times.  He agreed that he wouldn't make jokes and would be serious and truthful about the answer.  
He said that when he was 17 years old, his father (my grandfather) used to take him and his brother (my father) to the YMCA for swimming lessons.  They went to the military Y because my grandfather had also been in the Navy.  He told me there were some women and young girls who sat on stair like benches on the side of the pool while the males were swimming naked in the pool.  I then asked him how old the males in the pool were and he responded "They were different ages at different times.  He told me that he was 17 and my dad at that time was 15.  I asked him what year it was then and he replied "1934 or '35."  Then he said "Your granddad at that time was around 40.  (Incidentally, my grandfather lived to the age of 103 and died in 1998, having outlived my dad.)   I asked my uncle if my grandfather also swam in the pool naked.  His response was "Everybody swam naked.  I mean only the men and boys.  The women weren't allowed in the pool.  They had to go to the YWCA to swim."  I then asked him was there ever a problem with the females watching the males swim naked.  He replied "I guess that depends on who you asked.  The way I understood the rules, the only females who were supposed to be there were mothers, female family members and, if necessary, close friends.  Some of the service men (military) used to bring in their girl friends who sat and watched us swim laps.  As a matter of fact, the first time your aunt saw me naked was at that YMCA."  I then asked "Was it embarrassing for any of the guys to be seen naked by the women?"  My uncle's response was "I don't think so but I can only speak for myself.  It didn't seem like any of the guys were embarrassed.   It was somewhat common to see the service men sitting on the benches naked or in towels talking with their girlfriends and the other people there."  
I asked about the gender of the swimming instructor.  He told me the instructor was male.  I then asked if the instructor was also naked and his response was "Yes, of course.  He had to get in the pool with the students and in those days you were not allowed to wear clothes in a YMCA pool."  I then asked him why it was that females were made to wear suits but males had to be naked.  He replied, "That's the way it was back then.  We didn't have to wear suits but they did at the YWCA.  It seems like they preferred it that way.  They  didn't like to have their bodies seen but most of the guys I think didn't care unless they were '"fairies"'.  You could almost always tell if a guy was affected that way because they'd be covering their peckers with their hands and quickly putting on towels after they got out of the pool."  I then asked did any of the guys ever get erections.  My uncle replied "Yes, sometimes guys would get them.  I used to get them after a hard swim sometimes.  Nobody ever said anything about it."  
I then asked when did they stop letting the women in.  His response was, "Well, the females starting coming in as members sometime in the 70's if I recall right.  And the guys started wearing trunks because females were in the water too.  I guess they were afraid that if a guy happened to shoot a little wad it might travel into a woman and get her pregnant."  He then laughed.  
He then asked me "Why all the questions?" and I told him about this website and the discussion.  His response was "Stop f--king around on that stupid computer.  I hate those damn things.  We had one for a while a few years ago and I couldn't make it work right so I told them to come and get it and give me my money back. I know a guy who plays on a computer for hours and he's gotten fat.  Go outside.  Go for a walk or a swim.  You don't need to be sitting reading crap on the computer!"  My uncle can be very outspoken at times.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #28 on: Sep 12th, 2011, 11:07am »
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a reply to "Maverick"  
 
At the time of this relation, I doubt that the risk of an incestuous encounter at home between a brother and a sister  was  really  taken in account in a family, I believe rather that they did not think about such issues but it is only my opinion.
 
Anyway, today, it would have been different and your argument would have been right.  
 
"Just my opinion but it seems logical if you look at the fact that in a public setting, away from the possibility of direct contact there would be less chance of an incestual encounter than if the same nude boy would be exposed to his sisters in the home. That would have been and still is a concern that many parents would consider.
I can see a father forbidding nudity in the home, where the mere possibility of that nudity leading to physical contact between brother and sister becomes more likely, even if that likelyhood is miniscule. The incestual taboo is a very strong one".
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #29 on: Sep 12th, 2011, 12:10pm »
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MW, thank you for that refreshing and insightful account.  You put some good questions to your uncle. It's interesting to hear first hand accounts of CFNM encounters from people who were there decades ago.  Tell your uncle we thank him.  He sounds like quite a character.  May he live at least another century.  Cool
« Last Edit: Sep 12th, 2011, 12:32pm by hey2004 » IP Logged

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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #30 on: Sep 12th, 2011, 1:42pm »
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on Sep 12th, 2011, 3:08am, HowlingDawg wrote:

 
MW,
Actually, the first time I ever went to a YMCA was in the 1950's with my brother and my Uncle (one of my dad's brothers).  I also went to a Y during the 1960's a number of times.  
At that time, there were two YMCA's located in San Diego.  Both of them were located in the downtown area.  One of them was more specifically for the military who stayed there in the YMCA Hotel and exercised in the gym and pool.  Civilians could go there and stay at the hotel too.  The other one was for civilians and also had a gym and a hotel.   There was also a YWCA not far from the "civilian YMCA".  
Both my dad and his brothers were veterans having been in the Navy.  Because of their veteran status we always went to the YMCA designated for military except once when we went to the civilian YMCA.  
My dad's brother has been a life long member of the YMCA having joined when he was 15 years old.  He is now in his 90's.  After reading the story posted by Bobby Bare and the pursuant posted discussion, earlier today I called my uncle and asked if he ever remembers a time when females watched males swim naked at the YMCA.  I then asked him to not make jokes because my Uncle can be a "joker" at times.  He agreed that he wouldn't make jokes and would be serious and truthful about the answer.  
He said that when he was 17 years old, his father (my grandfather) used to take him and his brother (my father) to the YMCA for swimming lessons.  They went to the military Y because my grandfather had also been in the Navy.  He told me there were some women and young girls who sat on stair like benches on the side of the pool while the males were swimming naked in the pool.  I then asked him how old the males in the pool were and he responded "They were different ages at different times.  He told me that he was 17 and my dad at that time was 15.  I asked him what year it was then and he replied "1934 or '35."  Then he said "Your granddad at that time was around 40.  (Incidentally, my grandfather lived to the age of 103 and died in 1998, having outlived my dad.)   I asked my uncle if my grandfather also swam in the pool naked.  His response was "Everybody swam naked.  I mean only the men and boys.  The women weren't allowed in the pool.  They had to go to the YWCA to swim."  I then asked him was there ever a problem with the females watching the males swim naked.  He replied "I guess that depends on who you asked.  The way I understood the rules, the only females who were supposed to be there were mothers, female family members and, if necessary, close friends.  Some of the service men (military) used to bring in their girl friends who sat and watched us swim laps.  As a matter of fact, the first time your aunt saw me naked was at that YMCA."  I then asked "Was it embarrassing for any of the guys to be seen naked by the women?"  My uncle's response was "I don't think so but I can only speak for myself.  It didn't seem like any of the guys were embarrassed.   It was somewhat common to see the service men sitting on the benches naked or in towels talking with their girlfriends and the other people there."  
I asked about the gender of the swimming instructor.  He told me the instructor was male.  I then asked if the instructor was also naked and his response was "Yes, of course.  He had to get in the pool with the students and in those days you were not allowed to wear clothes in a YMCA pool."  I then asked him why it was that females were made to wear suits but males had to be naked.  He replied, "That's the way it was back then.  We didn't have to wear suits but they did at the YWCA.  It seems like they preferred it that way.  They  didn't like to have their bodies seen but most of the guys I think didn't care unless they were '"fairies"'.  You could almost always tell if a guy was affected that way because they'd be covering their peckers with their hands and quickly putting on towels after they got out of the pool."  I then asked did any of the guys ever get erections.  My uncle replied "Yes, sometimes guys would get them.  I used to get them after a hard swim sometimes.  Nobody ever said anything about it."  
I then asked when did they stop letting the women in.  His response was, "Well, the females starting coming in as members sometime in the 70's if I recall right.  And the guys started wearing trunks because females were in the water too.  I guess they were afraid that if a guy happened to shoot a little wad it might travel into a woman and get her pregnant."  He then laughed.  
He then asked me "Why all the questions?" and I told him about this website and the discussion.  His response was "Stop f--king around on that stupid computer.  I hate those damn things.  We had one for a while a few years ago and I couldn't make it work right so I told them to come and get it and give me my money back. I know a guy who plays on a computer for hours and he's gotten fat.  Go outside.  Go for a walk or a swim.  You don't need to be sitting reading crap on the computer!"  My uncle can be very outspoken at times.  

 
Dawg,
 
Your uncle is right on…his memory, I mean.  Thanks for sharing that.  He confirms everything I remember, including the part about the “fairies.”  
 
Ha-ha.  I guess I was one back then.  Those days were simpler than now.  They wouldn’t understand any of the content of this site.  Supposedly, girls weren’t interested in male bodies.  But the woman had to protect their bodies from the glances of men.  Men didn’t…or shouldn’t care if they were seen naked.  Men were all avaricious, seeking sex at every occasion.  Sex was bad…and ugly.  Imagine the male who fit into that world: you were either manly or a fairy.
 
I know I didn’t fit.  In those days I was gangly, a bit over-intellectual and sensitive (so I was told).  I liked to read, do math homework and I didn’t perceive myself to be good at sports (when I got into my twenties I was surprised to learn I had an aptitude for sports—surprise, surprise).  I was self-conscious and embarrassed about myself.  I imagined the girls all going into back rooms and laughing about seeing me nude…hell, I imagined the boys even joining them.  It was all rather like the dreaded fart in church at the moment of silence...those thick, oak benches reverberating and intensifying the sound. Cheesy  So I loathed the YMCA, with the girls sitting in the bleachers—the same girls I was going to see in Mrs. Caller’s class the next day.  So I walked away from Y swim classes.  I went home, sat in my room and read or stared at my tropical fish (no TV in those days).  My father was a distant Scots Calvinist man who didn’t care what I did.  
 
But I'm none the worst for it now.  I sired two brilliant daughters, one a lawyer and one a surgeon. Ha-ha, so this fairy's equipment works pretty well.  
 
My point is that those were cold, insensitive times.  One-dimensional times.  A time for conformists only.  No tolerance for anyone or anything different.  Not that we don’t have our foibles, but I like it now much better.
« Last Edit: Sep 12th, 2011, 2:04pm by MW » IP Logged
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #31 on: Sep 12th, 2011, 1:59pm »
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Dawg.. so sorry I meant to address you regarding your well written account and your cool uncle.  Thank you.  Grin
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #32 on: Sep 12th, 2011, 2:14pm »
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"Dawg" :  
 
As others have already said, your uncle is a very good man with much good sense and who knows how it is necessary to deal with life to get over some bad time and remember only what was good at that time.
 
Of course, i do not agree with his comment about the useless of a computer but he is not completely wrong when he said  that it is better to go outside, to walk or to swim than to stay always behind a computer.
 
Anyway, he gave us an interesting comment about the life and feelings of other times and we can understand better some rules or common situations of the past, why they were like that, why some rules were applied and why boys obeyed to them, and why it was not a big deal, why also girls were treated differently of boys in a way which would not be admitted today.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #33 on: Sep 13th, 2011, 10:54am »
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on Sep 12th, 2011, 12:10pm, hey2004 wrote:
MW, thank you for that refreshing and insightful account.  You put some good questions to your uncle. It's interesting to hear first hand accounts of CFNM encounters from people who were there decades ago.  Tell your uncle we thank him.  He sounds like quite a character.  May he live at least another century.  Cool

 
hey2004,
Your welcome.  I'm glad you enjoyed my post.  Actually, my uncle told me some other things that I didn't include in my post because I thought what he said would be offensive to some readers.  While offending some readers is a possibility, the other comments he made are quite interesting.  Some of his comments would be interesting specifically to the members of this forum.  I debated whether to include those possibly offensive comments but decided against it for fear of having the entire post deleted by the moderators.  I may end up posting some of his other comments but I will need to do some editing if I do post them.  
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #34 on: Sep 13th, 2011, 12:31pm »
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on Sep 12th, 2011, 1:42pm, MW wrote:

 
Dawg,
 
Your uncle is right on…his memory, I mean.  Thanks for sharing that.  He confirms everything I remember, including the part about the “fairies.”  
 
Ha-ha.  I guess I was one back then.  Those days were simpler than now.  They wouldn’t understand any of the content of this site.  Supposedly, girls weren’t interested in male bodies.  But the woman had to protect their bodies from the glances of men.  Men didn’t…or shouldn’t care if they were seen naked.  Men were all avaricious, seeking sex at every occasion.  Sex was bad…and ugly.  Imagine the male who fit into that world: you were either manly or a fairy.
 
I know I didn’t fit.  In those days I was gangly, a bit over-intellectual and sensitive (so I was told).  I liked to read, do math homework and I didn’t perceive myself to be good at sports (when I got into my twenties I was surprised to learn I had an aptitude for sports—surprise, surprise).  I was self-conscious and embarrassed about myself.  I imagined the girls all going into back rooms and laughing about seeing me nude…hell, I imagined the boys even joining them.  It was all rather like the dreaded fart in church at the moment of silence...those thick, oak benches reverberating and intensifying the sound. Cheesy  So I loathed the YMCA, with the girls sitting in the bleachers—the same girls I was going to see in Mrs. Caller’s class the next day.  So I walked away from Y swim classes.  I went home, sat in my room and read or stared at my tropical fish (no TV in those days).  My father was a distant Scots Calvinist man who didn’t care what I did.  
 
But I'm none the worst for it now.  I sired two brilliant daughters, one a lawyer and one a surgeon. Ha-ha, so this fairy's equipment works pretty well.  
 
My point is that those were cold, insensitive times.  One-dimensional times.  A time for conformists only.  No tolerance for anyone or anything different.  Not that we don’t have our foibles, but I like it now much better.

 
MW,
Thank you for your comments.  I'm glad you enjoyed my uncle's comments.  One of the other questions I asked him which I didn't include in my post because his answer was somewhat offensive was "I always thought that the YMCA didn't let women in where the guys were naked."  This is his response but note that I have edited out certain parts of his response because of their potentially offensive nature:
"This was primarily a military YMCA where mostly soldiers and sailors went.  Civilians could also go there but most of the guys were military.  You had some guy who was about to be shipped out in a day or two and wanted to spend as much time with his girl friend as possible and maybe wanted to show off his athletic skills to her so at some of the military Y's I was at, the management looked the other way.  I really don't think the girl friends of the soldiers were supposed to be there but none of us cared and the lifeguard and the Y management didn't kick them out.  The mothers and sisters of the boys and teenagers who were swimming or taking lessons were permitted to watch their sons and brothers.  Sometimes friends would come with them.   I didn't mind it but I felt sorry for this one guy.  We were sitting in the steam room inside the locker room shower area.  There were 5 guys in the steam room, all of us were naked.  One of them was a kid who appeared to be 16 or 17 years old.  I remember we were talking about Joe DiMagio, you know the baseball player.... when the lifeguard, who was also naked by the way,  opened the door and called out this kid's name.  I think his name was Billy.  The kid responded and the lifeguard told him they were looking for him and it was time for him to come to the pool.  The kid responded he'd be there in a minute.  After the lifeguard shut the door, the kid said that he didn't want to do this but he had to because his mom already paid for the lessons.  So I asked him why he didn't want to take the swimming lessons.  He told me that for one thing he already knew how to swim but they were gonna help him improve his swimming and for another thing his sister brought 3 of her girl friends with her and that they had ridden in the car with them to the Y because they were all going shopping after he finished his swimming lesson, and his mom had brought a female friend of hers with her who was one of this kid's teachers at school and he didn't want them to see him naked because he thought the girls would tease him and he would feel weird seeing the teacher the next day.  A couple of us in the steam room tried to boost his confidence by telling him he was a handsome guy who had nothing to be ashamed of and that those girls may not want to admit it but they will probably enjoy seeing him naked.  He seemed to like hearing that and went out to the pool."
 
I then asked my uncle "Was he really a handsome guy who had nothing to be ashamed of or did you just tell him that to boost his confidence?"  My uncle replied "No, he was a good looking guy with an athletic body and a really big pecker.  That kid had nothing to be ashamed of."
 
Kind of half teasing my uncle I then asked him "Was his pecker as big as yours?"  (My uncle is extremely well endowed as were both of his brothers one of which was my dad.  Large penises are common on my dad's side of the family.  My brother and I inherited this trait.)
My uncle's answer was "Not quite but almost.  It was definitely big enough to catch your eye."  
 
My uncle then went on to say "Later I went out to the pool and the kid was standing in the pool breathing heavy.  The water was up to his waist and he had a boner.  I guess his mom saw the boner because she came over to the pool and told him to get out of the water.  She then pulled out a small paddle from her purse, you know one of those that has a rubber band and a ball attached to it when you buy it?  This one didn't have the rubber band and the ball anymore.  He got up out of the water and his mom started whacking him on the butt with the paddle.  The kid started crying and then his mom grabbed him by the arm and took him over to the benches where she, his teacher and the girls who were about his age were all sitting.  He stood there while his mom scolded him for a couple of minutes.  I noticed that his teacher and three of the girls who were sitting eye level with the kid's waist all seemed to be looking at his boner.  Actually, one of the girls and his teacher seemed to be staring at it for a few seconds.  His mother was really strict and if he looked away she would whack him on the side of his leg or on the butt and tell him to look at her and to not move until she told him to.  When she was done scolding him she told him to get back in the water and finish his lesson and that he'd get a spanking from his father when he got home.  The kid turned around and he still had the boner.  He was crying and he got back in the water and started swimming again."  
(There's more to this story my uncle told me.  I'll tell the rest later.)  
« Last Edit: Sep 13th, 2011, 12:38pm by HowlingDawg » IP Logged
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #35 on: Sep 13th, 2011, 1:34pm »
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on Sep 13th, 2011, 12:31pm, HowlingDawg wrote:

 
MW,
Thank you for your comments.  I'm glad you enjoyed my uncle's comments.  One of the other questions I asked him which I didn't include in my post because his answer was somewhat offensive was "I always thought that the YMCA didn't let women in where the guys were naked."  This is his response but note that I have edited out certain parts of his response because of their potentially offensive nature:
"This was primarily a military YMCA where mostly soldiers and sailors went.  Civilians could also go there but most of the guys were military.  You had some guy who was about to be shipped out in a day or two and wanted to spend as much time with his girl friend as possible and maybe wanted to show off his athletic skills to her so at some of the military Y's I was at, the management looked the other way.  I really don't think the girl friends of the soldiers were supposed to be there but none of us cared and the lifeguard and the Y management didn't kick them out.  The mothers and sisters of the boys and teenagers who were swimming or taking lessons were permitted to watch their sons and brothers.  Sometimes friends would come with them.   I didn't mind it but I felt sorry for this one guy.  We were sitting in the steam room inside the locker room shower area.  There were 5 guys in the steam room, all of us were naked.  One of them was a kid who appeared to be 16 or 17 years old.  I remember we were talking about Joe DiMagio, you know the baseball player.... when the lifeguard, who was also naked by the way,  opened the door and called out this kid's name.  I think his name was Billy.  The kid responded and the lifeguard told him they were looking for him and it was time for him to come to the pool.  The kid responded he'd be there in a minute.  After the lifeguard shut the door, the kid said that he didn't want to do this but he had to because his mom already paid for the lessons.  So I asked him why he didn't want to take the swimming lessons.  He told me that for one thing he already knew how to swim but they were gonna help him improve his swimming and for another thing his sister brought 3 of her girl friends with her and that they had ridden in the car with them to the Y because they were all going shopping after he finished his swimming lesson, and his mom had brought a female friend of hers with her who was one of this kid's teachers at school and he didn't want them to see him naked because he thought the girls would tease him and he would feel weird seeing the teacher the next day.  A couple of us in the steam room tried to boost his confidence by telling him he was a handsome guy who had nothing to be ashamed of and that those girls may not want to admit it but they will probably enjoy seeing him naked.  He seemed to like hearing that and went out to the pool."
 
I then asked my uncle "Was he really a handsome guy who had nothing to be ashamed of or did you just tell him that to boost his confidence?"  My uncle replied "No, he was a good looking guy with an athletic body and a really big pecker.  That kid had nothing to be ashamed of."
 
Kind of half teasing my uncle I then asked him "Was his pecker as big as yours?"  (My uncle is extremely well endowed as were both of his brothers one of which was my dad.  Large penises are common on my dad's side of the family.  My brother and I inherited this trait.)
My uncle's answer was "Not quite but almost.  It was definitely big enough to catch your eye."  
 
My uncle then went on to say "Later I went out to the pool and the kid was standing in the pool breathing heavy.  The water was up to his waist and he had a boner.  I guess his mom saw the boner because she came over to the pool and told him to get out of the water.  She then pulled out a small paddle from her purse, you know one of those that has a rubber band and a ball attached to it when you buy it?  This one didn't have the rubber band and the ball anymore.  He got up out of the water and his mom started whacking him on the butt with the paddle.  The kid started crying and then his mom grabbed him by the arm and took him over to the benches where she, his teacher and the girls who were about his age were all sitting.  He stood there while his mom scolded him for a couple of minutes.  I noticed that his teacher and three of the girls who were sitting eye level with the kid's waist all seemed to be looking at his boner.  Actually, one of the girls and his teacher seemed to be staring at it for a few seconds.  His mother was really strict and if he looked away she would whack him on the side of his leg or on the butt and tell him to look at her and to not move until she told him to.  When she was done scolding him she told him to get back in the water and finish his lesson and that he'd get a spanking from his father when he got home.  The kid turned around and he still had the boner.  He was crying and he got back in the water and started swimming again."  
(There's more to this story my uncle told me.  I'll tell the rest later.)  

 
Dawg,
 
More fascinating stuff about the era from your uncle.  Thanks.  
 
Well, at least I never got that sort of treatment.  My mum could be vicious (she had the local shoemaker make her a cat-o-nine-tails), but she was never sado-sexually abusive like that mother.  Just angry...with her hands full with four boys.
 
With two brothers before me, she finally understood that boys get involuntary erections...especially in provocative or nervous circumstances.  I've always said that the erection was one of the (several) most misunderstood things by American women.  My mum was understanding and discreet about that; she never would have taken off after any one of us for that.
 
And I must say, by the time I was 16 - 17 I was a big kid, about 6' 2".  By this time she had a yardstick (my dad finally took an interest in us kids and the first thing he did was take away her cat-o-nine-tails) and one day she took after me with the yardstick on the stairs leading up to the 2nd story landing.  I simply took it away from her and broke it over my knee, over and over, until it was so small a piece that all I was doing was bruising my leg.  
 
A lot of accumulated anger from the years past; but of course I never touched her.  Not a part of our family scene, thank goodness.  I was more like, I'm not going to put up with this shit anymore!  I'd developed into a tall, strapping, good-looking (if I may say so myself) kid, who became popular with girls and boys alike.  I had long outgrown my fairy stage...and my mums antics.
 
I feel sorry for the kid your uncle described in that story.  But WTF, we all have to grow a pair sometime.  Maybe this was his day.
« Last Edit: Sep 13th, 2011, 1:52pm by MW » IP Logged
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #36 on: Sep 13th, 2011, 6:00pm »
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Thanks for the laugh about your uncle's story, Dawg.
I always enjoy these kind of stories and accounts about male embarrassment with female domination.  
Like I always say, if we had a female dominated society we would have a lot more CFNM.  Grin
 
A guy told me a similar account once which happened at his school. I will post it later when I find it.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #37 on: Sep 14th, 2011, 3:43am »
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"Dawg"
 
The adding part of the story with the boy of 16-17 age being punished by his mother in front of her friend and daughter and other girls in the swimming pool is very funny and interesting from a CFMN point of view but it is not at all credible.  
 
I appreciate it like others but I believe that it is really a fantasy, on the opposite of the former part of the relation about your uncle comments which seems more credible.
 
I cannot imagine that, even in the past, a male teenager of 16 age would have let his mother whacked him on the butts with a paddle on the benches openly in public without any privacy like she did in your story.
 
At 16 age, a boy is no more a child, so he could have refused that humiliation even if he knew that his refusal would have bad consequences for him at home with a spanking by his dad but it would have been different : it was better to be spanked at home by his father than humiliated by his mother like that in the swimming pool.
 
Anyway, it is not important but your uncle has a great fantasy to give us a good CFMN story!
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #38 on: Sep 14th, 2011, 1:56pm »
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on Sep 14th, 2011, 3:43am, easter_man_10 wrote:
"Dawg"
 
The adding part of the story with the boy of 16-17 age being punished by his mother in front of her friend and daughter and other girls in the swimming pool is very funny and interesting from a CFMN point of view but it is not at all credible.  
 
I appreciate it like others but I believe that it is really a fantasy, on the opposite of the former part of the relation about your uncle comments which seems more credible.
 
I cannot imagine that, even in the past, a male teenager of 16 age would have let his mother whacked him on the butts with a paddle on the benches openly in public without any privacy like she did in your story.
 
At 16 age, a boy is no more a child, so he could have refused that humiliation even if he knew that his refusal would have bad consequences for him at home with a spanking by his dad but it would have been different : it was better to be spanked at home by his father than humiliated by his mother like that in the swimming pool.
 
Anyway, it is not important but your uncle has a great fantasy to give us a good CFMN story!  

 
Easter man,
When my uncle told me this story, I thought he was trying to joke but later I found out, as he continued to tell the story that the story was real.  
You might remember that at the end of my post I wrote I would continue the rest of the story later.  In the remainder of the story, there is information that will make the story seem more credible but also there is information which makes the story even more incredible.  I specifically asked my uncle a couple of times while he was telling the story if it was real and he always answered "yes".  
As difficult as this story is to believe in the first part, as you read more of the story you will probably have one or both of these opinions:
This is one of the wildest stories  I've ever read  
and/or  
This second part of the story makes it seem much more credible.  
 
 
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #39 on: Sep 14th, 2011, 4:39pm »
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on Sep 13th, 2011, 12:31pm, HowlingDawg wrote:

 
  
 
My uncle then went on to say "Later I went out to the pool and the kid was standing in the pool breathing heavy.  The water was up to his waist and he had a boner.  I guess his mom saw the boner because she came over to the pool and told him to get out of the water.  She then pulled out a small paddle from her purse, you know one of those that has a rubber band and a ball attached to it when you buy it?  This one didn't have the rubber band and the ball anymore.  He got up out of the water and his mom started whacking him on the butt with the paddle.  The kid started crying and then his mom grabbed him by the arm and took him over to the benches where she, his teacher and the girls who were about his age were all sitting.  He stood there while his mom scolded him for a couple of minutes.  I noticed that his teacher and three of the girls who were sitting eye level with the kid's waist all seemed to be looking at his boner.  Actually, one of the girls and his teacher seemed to be staring at it for a few seconds.  His mother was really strict and if he looked away she would whack him on the side of his leg or on the butt and tell him to look at her and to not move until she told him to.  When she was done scolding him she told him to get back in the water and finish his lesson and that he'd get a spanking from his father when he got home.  The kid turned around and he still had the boner.  He was crying and he got back in the water and started swimming again."  
(There's more to this story my uncle told me.  I'll tell the rest later.)  

 
OMG...was this woman trying to raise a serial killer? Shocked
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #40 on: Sep 14th, 2011, 7:26pm »
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on Sep 14th, 2011, 4:39pm, hey2004 wrote:

 
OMG...was this woman trying to raise a serial killer? Shocked

 
Maybe the mother took drastic action, but one must realize that in a situation like this, which was supposed to be non-sexual, one could not tolerate a teeage boy displaying an erection in front of all those respectable women.
So in a way the boy was shaming his mother in front of her friends, so she was rightly angry.
 
I was told a similar story once by someone who witnessed the same happening with a 15 year old boy when he was waiting on the diving board. The mixed spectators started laughing and pointing at him, especially the young girls, presumably sisters, which turned the whole thing into a farce.  The coach present was angry and ordered the boy immediately down and out of the pool area.
The poor boy had to pass in front of all the spectators present with his hardon, and mocked by everyone, on his way out.
He later got a spanking by the coach, though thankfully in private in this case.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #41 on: Sep 15th, 2011, 12:53am »
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Before I tell the remainder of the story my uncle told me about the young man at the YMCA and his mother, I want to preface it by having an understanding with everyone who is reading this.  What I want you to understand is that there was much about this story upon first hearing that I found doubtful until my uncle came to a certain part in the story which is when I started finding the story more believable.  First, I had serious doubts that females were permitted to watch the naked males swim at the YMCA because I had always been of the understanding that females were never permitted in a YMCA until the mid 1970's when YMCA's were officially patronized by both genders.  With other testaments and then also my uncle's story telling about females being in a YMCA under certain circumstances prior to the mid 1970's, I began to consider the possibility that the idea of females being in a YMCA watching males swim naked could very likely be a historical reality.  Having never seen this for myself, I still find myself holding in reserve a consideration of a minor degree of doubt about this even though my uncle never lied to me under the condition he told me he wasn't lying.  Actually, my consideration of the possibility of doubt isn't caused because I think my uncle might be deliberately lying but rather because I consider the possibility that at 93 years of age, my uncle might be confused and remembering a situation where males swam naked in the presence of females at some place other than a YMCA.  Although, this seems unlikely because my uncle's cognitive abilities seem pretty "sharp", to say the very least.  I'll put it this way about his mental capacity: From tests I've taken it has been determined that my IQ is in the genius range and sometimes, mentally speaking, by his comments and questions my uncle can be challenging to me.  
 
From here on will be a continuation about the story my uncle told me and my conversation with him about that story.  I forgot to mention in my previous post that I am paraphrasing what my uncle said because I didn't record our conversation.  To the best of my memory, what I wrote in my previous post and what I'm writing here in this post is what my uncle actually said but please consider the possibility that I am writing what he said from memory and because of this there might be slight misquotes.  
 
My uncle told me this situation happened in either 1949 or 1950.  The Korean conflict was becoming a strong news item and military activity was becoming more noticeable especially in a military city like San Diego.  One place where my uncle said he noticed the presence of a greater number of military personnel was at the the Military YMCA in downtown.  He told me "The girl friends of the soldiers and sailors weren't always there but they were there sometimes.  There was one guy who had a different girl with him each of the four times I saw him there and with each girl he would always go and stand next to them naked, putting his foot up on the bench where the girl was sitting so his pecker would be right to the side of the girl."  
My uncle continued, "I think a couple of weeks went by before I saw that kid again.  I'm fairly certain his name was Billy.  For telling you this story I'll call him Billy even if I'm wrong about his name.  I walked into the pool area and saw his mom sitting on the benches next to three adolescent girls.  I looked in the water and didn't see Billy.   I got in the water and started stretching for my swim when Billy came through the door.  He was naked like the rest of the guys.  I waved at him and he waved back.  He got in the lane two over from me and was met by his swimming instructor.  I swam for about 30 minutes and then after cooling down went into the shower room.  After my shower I went into the steam room.  About 5 minutes later Billy walked into the steam room.  I asked him how he was and he said '"I'm OK'".  He sounded depressed to me so I asked him "'Are you sure you're OK?'"  I sensed that something was wrong from his demeanor which was kind of down and apathetic.  I questioned him and eventually he told me that he had been receiving a lot of spankings at home from his '"foster dad"'.  I asked him what he meant by '"foster dad'" and he started explaining to me what is meant by a foster dad which made it obvious to me that I had asked the wrong question because I knew the meaning of '"foster dad'".  What I really wanted to know was where his real dad was and why he was living with a foster dad.  He explained to me that his real parents were dead having been in a car accident about 2 years before.  He said he had been living in the state home and went to live with one couple but the man drank too much so they took Billy back to the state home and then they moved him to where he was living then.  I asked him if he had any relatives and he said only one, his aunt and her husband who had 5 children and couldn't afford to take Billy.  His uncle, Billy told me, was crippled and in a wheel chair.  There were no other living relatives that he knew about."
 
"Billy then went on to tell me that his foster brother who was older than him had also been spanking him.  I asked him why they were spanking him and he told me '"...different reasons but I shouldn't have been spanked...I accidentally broke a lamp but it was an accident...I told my foster mom I didn't like the way her meatloaf tasted because she asked me...stuff like that...'"  I said "'They spanked you because you said you didn't like meatloaf?!'"  He replied '"Yeah, I got a spanking right before I came here for taking too long in the bathroom.'"  He then stood up with his back to me and asked "'Is my bottom still red?'"  It was a little red but didn't look like he had been spanked."
I listened to more of his story and had I not seen how his foster mother behaved a couple of weeks before, I possibly would have thought that Billy was exaggerating.  As things were, I decided I believed what he was telling me so I asked him "'Would you like me to talk with your foster parents?'"  He asked me why I would do that for him and I told him it's because of my being a lawyer.  He told me he couldn't afford to pay me anything and I told him that was OK. Later in the locker room he gave me his foster parents address but forgot to write down their phone number.  I didn't notice this until I looked at the information sometime later that night."
 
"The following evening I went to their house and visited with Billy's foster parents.  Things didn't go well when I told them about my conversation with Billy and suggested different types of punishments other than frequent spankings.  Their response was basically one of intolerance when the woman said "'Don't tell me how to raise children!  I've raised three of my own and now we have Billy.  We'll do just fine without any help from you, sir!"' Billy's foster dad than asked me to wait a minute and he left the room leaving me and his wife standing there.  A few minutes later, he came back in the room holding Billy tightly by the arm.  He then asked Billy if what I had said was true, that he had talked with me about their family and the spankings.  Billy said it was true.  I then began to have the feeling that I had actually made things worse for Billy and that feeling was confirmed when Billy's foster dad forced Billy over to the couch, pulled down his pants and started spanking him really hard in front of his foster sisters and a couple of their girlfriends, his foster mother, his foster brother and another woman who had come into the room.   I think Billy's foster dad got 2 or 3 swats in before I was able to stop him.  Right before I stopped him Billy's foster dad looked at me with a glaring smile that looked like '"f--k you'" to me.  I actually ended up slugging Billy's foster dad in the jaw and he landed on the floor half conscious.  His wife called the police and I stayed because I wanted to explain to them what was going on and why I slugged him.  The officers came and I proceeded to explain the situation to them.  One of the officers knew Billy because he had been involved when another officer arrested Billy for shoplifting.  The officer told me that Billy was "trouble" and that his foster parents were right to spank him whenever they thought it necessary.  Billy's foster dad didn't press charges.  The police made sure that I left.  I stood outside for a few minutes until the two cops came out.  I attempted to continue telling them what Billy had told me and about what I had seen.  Both of the officers seemed disinterested.  As we stood there, from inside the house through the open windows we heard Billy yell '"No, no.'"  then we heard slapping sounds and Billy crying '"No, stop, please it hurts, it hurts!"'  I started to go for the front door and both of the officers held me back and one of them said "Stay out of it! Parents have the right to spank their children and this one should be spanked.'"  Then, the front door opened and Billy came running out wearing an unbuttoned short sleeve shirt and nothing else.  One of Billy's foster sisters then stood at the door watching Billy run out from behind him.  The officers put handcuffs on me with my hands behind my back.  They then put me in the back of the patrol car and shut the door.  By this time, Billy had run around to the side of the house.  Both officers went after him but one of them came back a couple of minutes later.  I tried opening the door but it couldn't be opened from inside the patrol car.  I sat there and watched and a few minutes later, Billy was brought back around with the police officer holding Billy's arms behind him.  Billy's shirt was missing and he was naked in full view of not only me, the officers and his family but also in front of other people who had gathered on the street in front of the house.  The other officer went to join the officer who captured Billy and both of them took Billy back into the house.  About a minute later one of the officers came out and stood by the patrol car.  Several seconds later once again we heard Billy yell "please no, don't'" and then several sounds of slapping and the sound of Billy crying out loud."
"The police followed me as I drove my car back to my house.  When I got out of my car, one of them told me that he didn't want me to go anywhere near that house again and that if I did he would put me in jail."
"The next day, I went to the state home and spoke with a woman there who happened to be the other woman I saw at Billy's foster parent's house.  That woman seemed really cold and stiff.   She acted like she hadn't been f--ked in a hundred years.  She told me she was familiar with Billy and told me that his foster parents were '"good, decent people who were perfectly within their  rights to spank Billy whenever they deemed fit.'"  Then she said '"We had to spank him several times when he was staying here.'" Later that evening I met with a judge who was a friend of mine.  I told him what was going on and he told me that unless Billy's life was in danger there was nothing that could be done because there was no law prohibiting his foster parents from spanking him.  I know there are such laws today but in 1949 or '50, there were no such laws.  Boys especially got spanked as much as their parents wanted to spank them.  You know that as well as I do.  Don't you remember I was at your place one time in 1967 when your daddy pulled down your britches and spanked your bare butt in front of your aunt and me and your cousins?"
 
I did remember that time.
 
"I became convinced that there was nothing I could do about this short of somehow creating a new law, I gave up trying to help Billy.  I thought about adopting him but my wife wouldn't hear of it.  When Billy saw me at the YMCA, he thanked me for trying to help him and for slugging his foster dad.  Then he asked me to not try to do anymore because his foster dad spanked him really hard for talking to me about their personal life.  
 
Billy continued to come to the YMCA and every time he came, his foster mother and at least one of his foster sisters was sitting on the benches on the side of the pool.  Sometimes there were other females with them.  Billy told me that the other females were either classmates of his and one of his foster sisters or they were one grade ahead.  His teacher also showed up again a few more times.  I found out from Billy that she had also been giving him bare bottom spankings with a paddle in front of the rest of the class.  He told me that his foster parents had given her permission to spank him.  He started getting a little upset and choked up when he told me that the teacher called his foster parents and he overheard his foster dad say to her something like "You have my permission to pull his pants down and spank his bare bottom until he can't sit down."'  The teacher didn't need the parent's permission in those days, they were legally allowed to spank students back then."  
 
(When I heard my uncle tell me that Billy's foster dad told the teacher that she had permission to spank Billy on his bare bottom, it pained me a little because once many years ago I heard my dad say almost the same thing to one of my teachers, actually a substitute male teacher.)
 
Then my uncle said to me "'You know this, they used to spank you when you were in that reform school."  
 
My uncle then told me that Billy started to cry as he and my uncle sat in the steam room with another man.  My uncle realized there was nothing he could do because of the way the laws were back then.  My uncle told me he said to Billy "I'm sorry I can't help you more." and then got up and walked out.  
 
My uncle continued and said "I cooled off in the shower for a few minutes and walked back out to the pool feeling very disturbed about the situation.  I walked over and tried to talk with Billy's foster mother but she told me to go away and that if I didn't leave her alone she would report me to the police.  I stopped trying because I realized there was nothing else I could do.  I got back in the pool and then realized I really didn't feel like swimming so within a minute I got back out.  I went back into the shower room and then walked back toward the steam room.  There was no one else in the showers.  After I walked into the steam room, as I walked closer to the benches in the steam room through the steam I could see that Billy was getting a "'blow job'" from this other older man whom I had never seen before that day.  I had never seen this happen before at the YMCA.  Neither Billy nor the other man were aware of my presence until a few seconds later when the man sat up and looked and saw that I was there.  At this same time Billy looked up at me.  The man hurriedly went out of the steam room probably afraid that I was going to report him.  Billy then said to me '"I'm sorry you saw that.  You won't tell my foster-mom will you?'"  I told him that I wouldn't say anything to her.  I then turned around and walked out wanting to give Billy some privacy.  A few minutes later Billy came out of the steam room.  His pecker was still mostly hard.  There was nobody else in the showers except him and me.  I told Billy it would help him to take a cold shower and then I walked up the short flight of stairs to the locker room to get dressed.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #42 on: Sep 15th, 2011, 10:02am »
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on Sep 14th, 2011, 3:43am, easter_man_10 wrote:
"Dawg"
 
The adding part of the story with the boy of 16-17 age being punished by his mother in front of her friend and daughter and other girls in the swimming pool is very funny and interesting from a CFMN point of view but it is not at all credible.  
 
I appreciate it like others but I believe that it is really a fantasy, on the opposite of the former part of the relation about your uncle comments which seems more credible.
 
I cannot imagine that, even in the past, a male teenager of 16 age would have let his mother whacked him on the butts with a paddle on the benches openly in public without any privacy like she did in your story.
 
At 16 age, a boy is no more a child, so he could have refused that humiliation even if he knew that his refusal would have bad consequences for him at home with a spanking by his dad but it would have been different : it was better to be spanked at home by his father than humiliated by his mother like that in the swimming pool.
 
Anyway, it is not important but your uncle has a great fantasy to give us a good CFMN story!  

 
Easter man,
It is my understanding that a male at the age of 17 in 1950 (as in the case of my uncle's story about "Billy") would have been less mature, less sophisticated and less psychologically aware than today's 17 year old male.  Of course, I have no proof of this but I have read in the past that some psychologists hold this belief.  I do know this seemed to be true of me and my brother in the 1960's when I compare us to the behavior and thinking of my relative's adolescent children in recent years.  
Another consideration is that in the story, the way I interpret what my uncle told me, "Billy" didn't have a lot of choices.  He was mistreated by his foster parents and he was mistreated at the institution my uncle referred to as the state home.  Maybe he tolerated being spanked by his foster mother because she didn't spank with as much force and pain as his foster father.  It is possible that to him the humiliation he had as a result of being spanked in front of other people by his foster mother was not as physically painful as the spanking from his foster father.  So, he tolerated the spanking from his foster mother and it's related humiliation to avoid the possibly more physically painful spanking from his foster father.   Of course I have no way of knowing this for sure but it does seem like a real possibility in this case.  
 
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #43 on: Sep 15th, 2011, 10:05am »
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on Sep 13th, 2011, 6:00pm, Bobby_Bare wrote:
Thanks for the laugh about your uncle's story, Dawg.
I always enjoy these kind of stories and accounts about male embarrassment with female domination.  
Like I always say, if we had a female dominated society we would have a lot more CFNM.  Grin
 
A guy told me a similar account once which happened at his school. I will post it later when I find it.

 
Bobby,  
Thanks.  Yes, I'd be curious to read the similar account you wrote about to find out how it compares to my uncle's story.  
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #44 on: Sep 15th, 2011, 1:42pm »
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on Sep 14th, 2011, 7:26pm, Bobby_Bare wrote:

Maybe the mother took drastic action, but one must realize that in a situation like this, which was supposed to be non-sexual, one could not tolerate a teeage boy displaying an erection in front of all those respectable women.
So in a way the boy was shaming his mother in front of her friends, so she was rightly angry.

Are you kidding me, Bobby? Huh My mother was the most callous and cruel mum I ever met, and she would never have tolerated one of her friends, or some little smart aleck girl, laughing at one of her sons for an involuntary erection.  I can imagine it now.  She would have told the girl, ‘Get the fuck out of here, you pervert!  WTF are you doing here if you don’t intend to be polite?!!’ Maybe not like that - she was a lady, after all - but that would have been her attitude.
 
And my sister?  She would have had the girl - friend or not - in the aisle, pummeling her.
 
We may have had stresses in our family, but never would we have turned on a son or sibling in the outside world.  Ha-ha, frankly it’s you I find incredible, not your story.  I can’t even wrap my mind around that way of thinking.  I totally agree with ‘hey2004’, that kind of thinking is abnormal and deviant.
 
Soz, don’t mean to be harsh.  But you got a rise out of me with that one.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #45 on: Sep 15th, 2011, 3:13pm »
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on Sep 15th, 2011, 1:42pm, MW wrote:

Are you kidding me, Bobby?  My mother was the most callous and cruel mum I ever met, and she would never have tolerated one of her friends, or some little smart aleck girl, laughing at one of her sons for an involuntary erection.  I can imagine it now.  She would have told the girl, ‘Get the fuck out of here, you pervert!  WTF are you doing here if you don’t intend to be polite?!!’ Maybe not like that - she was a lady, after all - but that would have been her attitude.
 
And my sister?  She would have had the girl - friend or not - in the aisle, pummeling her.
 
We may have had stresses in our family, but never would we have turned on a son or sibling in the outside world.  Frankly, it’s you I don’t found credible.  I can’t even wrap my mind around that way of thinking.  I totally agree with ‘hey2004’, that kind of thinking is abnormal and deviant.
 
Soz, don’t mean to be harsh.  But you got a rise out of me with that one.

 
MW,
Years ago, a lot of people had the mistaken belief that the only reason that a male's penis would become erect in a non sexual situation, was because that male was having "impure thoughts".  My step-mother never talked about it so to this day I don't know what her thinking was although she saw me with an erection many times and she was a retired nurse.  (My dad was a physician.)   Contrasting my step-mothers probably knowledgeable non-communication about this subject, an almost polar opposite was the mother of a friend of mine who,  typical of a lot of ignorant (about this subject) females years ago, believed that males became erect for the sole reason of having "impure thoughts".  I found this out when I stayed over at his house one night.  To this day, at the age of 60, I wake up every morning with an erection so you can probably imagine what my erections were like waking up as an adolescent.  They were probably best described as "full and throbbing".  My older brother and my step-brother/cousin were the same way.  My friend and I woke up in the morning at his house and, typical of most boys at that age, we both had erections.  He told me we would have to put on clothes to go to the bathroom because if his mom saw our erections he would get a spanking and I would be sent home.  I thought this was ridiculous because at my house my brother, my step-brother/cousin and I all used to walk to the bathroom naked in the morning and with erections.  At my friend's house I wasn't about to get dressed and then undress again in the bathroom to take a shower.  My friend said to me, "I'll get you a towel to wear, hold on."  So he then puts on a pair of shorts and a shirt that he left hanging outside of the waist of his shorts so as to hide his erection from his mom if she happened to see him.  He went for the towel and came back a short time later and told me to wrap the towel around me.  I did this but my penis was sticking out way over the top of the towel up to the area of my solar plexus.  So my friend took the towel off me and wrapped it around my chest which caused me to object because that's the way females wear a towel and besides my penis was making the towel "tent" so much that it was absolutely pointless to wear the towel that way for the purpose of hiding my erect penis.  He then gave me a shirt to wear which I reluctantly agreed to wear over the towel.  He and I walked together single file into the bathroom with him leading the way.  
There were other people I knew back then who were just as paranoid and ignorant about erect penises.  With this awareness, what Bobby Bare was saying is that many women in those days would be embarrassed not because their son was naked in front of the other "respectable" females (in an acceptable and appropriate situation such as if the male is participating in certain types of sports) but instead because the son had an erection that the females probably thought was caused by the son having "impure thoughts" possibly about one of them or possibly one of their daughters sitting next to them.    
Pertaining to the nudity of us males, we were supposed to protect the sensitivities of females.  If we were naked and an unfamiliar female happened to come along,  we were supposed to cover our bodies (if possible) unless that female told us it was alright for us to be naked in front of them.  Once that permission was granted, it was perfectly fine for the male to be naked and the males, by the standards of that day, were not supposed to feel any nudity shyness ever.  But, an erection was unacceptable in a situation like that because an erection was interpreted as the male being in a state of lust about the female.  In a non-sexual situation it would be necessary for the male to hide his erection as quickly as possible so as to not offend the unfamiliar female.   These are generalities and every female I was ever with in a situation similar to the example described above always gave permission for me to be naked in front of them.  (Some of them turned that non-sexual situation into a sexual one but that's a different story.)
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #46 on: Sep 15th, 2011, 4:32pm »
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Thanks for the explanation, Dawg.
Exactly what I meant.
 
MW, I did not say that the mother did the right thing. What I said, or at least meant, was that she thought that she was doing the right thing, because that was the mentality of many people back then, as Dawg has explained so well above.  
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #47 on: Sep 15th, 2011, 4:48pm »
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on Sep 15th, 2011, 3:13pm, HowlingDawg wrote:

 
MW,
Years ago, a lot of people had the mistaken belief that the only reason that a male's penis would become erect in a non sexual situation, was because that male was having "impure thoughts".  My step-mother never talked about it so to this day I don't know what her thinking was although she saw me with an erection many times and she was a retired nurse.  (My dad was a physician.)  

 
Dawg, I understand all of that.  I corrected my post (that you quoted) so often because I didn't want to be criticising Bobby, but the idea that this was normal or acceptable behavior.  Bobby was not recounting a fact or story, but making an argument that defended deviant behavior.  That changed the nature of the discussion from your relating your uncle's stories, to a normative discussion, with Bobby actually trying to justify something I find abhorant.
 
My father too was a physician.  As I mentioned elsewhere, he was professor of medicine at Harvard University until 1951, when he accepted a teaching position at Berkeley (now UCSF Medical School).  These are people who were born in 1906 and 1907 respectively.  They are from the very era that spawned the ignorance and closed-mindedness that we are now discussing.
 
My mother was originally as  ignorant as any other American woman about male physiology and sexuality...until my father enlightened her.  She understood all about involuntary erections.  But that benefit aside, she would never have turned on a sibling in this family.  My two older brothers protected me.  I protected my sister and my little brother.  And if need be, my mother was hell-on-wheels to anyone who attacked any one of us.  A mother who sexually humiliated her son before outsiders, should have had her parent's license taken away.
 
I was not one of those who doubted your uncle's story.  But I remain of the opinion that the conduct of the mother in the story was sick, deviant behavior.  The whole discussion changed when Bobby, without any reservation, tried to defend her conduct.  I would be irresponsible if I let that pass.
 
Quote:
Contrasting my step-mothers probably knowledgeable non-communication about this subject, an almost polar opposite was the mother of a friend of mine who,  typical of a lot of ignorant (about this subject) females years ago, believed that males became erect for the sole reason of having "impure thoughts".  I found this out when I stayed over at his house one night.  To this day, at the age of 60, I wake up every morning with an erection so you can probably imagine what my erections were like waking up as an adolescent.  They were probably best described as "full and throbbing".  My older brother and my step-brother/cousin were the same way.  My friend and I woke up in the morning at his house and, typical of most boys at that age, we both had erections.  He told me we would have to put on clothes to go to the bathroom because if his mom saw our erections he would get a spanking and I would be sent home.  I thought this was ridiculous because at my house my brother, my step-brother/cousin and I all used to walk to the bathroom naked in the morning and with erections.  At my friend's house I wasn't about to get dressed and then undress again in the bathroom to take a shower.  My friend said to me, "I'll get you a towel to wear, hold on."  So he then puts on a pair of shorts and a shirt that he left hanging outside of the waist of his shorts so as to hide his erection from his mom if she happened to see him.  He went for the towel and came back a short time later and told me to wrap the towel around me.  I did this but my penis was sticking out way over the top of the towel up to the area of my solar plexus.  So my friend took the towel off me and wrapped it around my chest which caused me to object because that's the way females wear a towel and besides my penis was making the towel "tent" so much that it was absolutely pointless to wear the towel that way for the purpose of hiding my erect penis.  He then gave me a shirt to wear which I reluctantly agreed to wear over the towel.  He and I walked together single file into the bathroom with him leading the way.  

 
Ha-ha, I wish I could awake today with an erection that was "full and throbbing".  
 
Quote:
There were other people I knew back then who were just as paranoid and ignorant about erect penises.  With this awareness, what Bobby Bare was saying is that many women in those days would be embarrassed not because their son was naked in front of the other "respectable" females (in an acceptable and appropriate situation such as if the male is participating in certain types of sports) but instead because the son had an erection that the females probably thought was caused by the son having "impure thoughts" possibly about one of them or possibly one of their daughters sitting next to them.  

 
At the risk of contradiction, here's what Bobby said:
 
Quote:
Maybe the mother took drastic action, but one must realize that in a situation like this, which was supposed to be non-sexual, one could not tolerate a teeage boy displaying an erection in front of all those respectable women.  
 
So in a way the boy was shaming his mother in front of her friends, so she was rightly angry.

 
Italics furnished.  Now, I wasn't born yesterday...did he say "rightly angry"?  That's a normative argument, unqualified as to any temper of the times historical discussion.  That's a defense of a position.  I am not only a (retired) professor of political philosophy, but a licensed attorney as well, with years of practice behind me.  I think I know the difference between factual speech and polemical argument, your attempts at trying to rehabilitate his position notwithstanding.
 
Quote:
Pertaining to the nudity of us males, we were supposed to protect the sensitivities of females.  If we were naked and an unfamiliar female happened to come along,  we were supposed to cover our bodies (if possible) unless that female told us it was alright for us to be naked in front of them.  Once that permission was granted, it was perfectly fine for the male to be naked and the males, by the standards of that day, were not supposed to feel any nudity shyness ever.  But, an erection was unacceptable in a situation like that because an erection was interpreted as the male being in a state of lust about the female.  In a non-sexual situation it would be necessary for the male to hide his erection as quickly as possible so as to not offend the unfamiliar female.   These are generalities and every female I was ever with in a situation similar to the example described above always gave permission for me to be naked in front of them.  (Some of them turned that non-sexual situation into a sexual one but that's a different story.)  

 
You are now changing the subject back into a factual discussion about historical matters, not normative positions.  I don't mind if you do that.  I just call upon you to recogize the difference.  Two different kinds of discussions.
 
Anymore about what your uncle told you?
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #48 on: Sep 16th, 2011, 1:27am »
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MW,
Here is what Bobby Bare wrote:
 
"Maybe the mother took drastic action, but one must realize that in a situation like this, which was supposed to be non-sexual, one could not tolerate a teenage boy displaying an erection in front of all those respectable women.  
So in a way the boy was shaming his mother in front of her friends, so she was rightly angry."

 
Pertaining to the last sentence, here is what I think Bobby Bare meant:
 
"So in a way the boy was shaming his mother in front of her friends, so she was rightly angry in accordance with the societal thinking of that time and perhaps her  religious and/or her psychological beliefs pertaining to the subject of erections."
 
Perhaps I read into his post but the above interpretation is the way I always interpreted his post.  
 
By way of example, let's compare this to a subject that a lot of people detest today, abortion.  A doctor who performs an abortion today is not breaking any laws.  However, that does not mean that in the future a doctor who performed abortions in the past won't be viewed from the perspective of a future influenced viewpoint of utter disdain.  
In other words you seem to be making a judgment about Billy's mother's behavior and Bobby Bare's defense of it from a "modern day" and more liberal perspective when, in actuality, in 1949 or 1950 when this situation happened, many women and probably some men would have agreed with Billy's mother's behavior if given a chance.  It is highly possible that if Billy's mother would not have punished Billy because of his erection (because of the erroneous way of thinking back then by many people in our society) the other women and girls would have felt highly insulted.  
Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying their thinking and the resultant actions were right.  I'm saying that perhaps the women were very much affected by the thinking of their time.  
You're right I am voicing an opinion about Bobby Bare's post.  It is my interpretation of what he wrote and not Bobby Bare's actual words.  BB is the only one who can tell us if my interpretation is the same as the one he intended.  Once again, making an interpretation of BB's words, it seems as though I am correct in my interpretation of what he wrote.  
 
You wrote:
"You are now changing the subject back into a factual discussion about historical matters, not normative positions.  I don't mind if you do that.  I just call upon you to recognize the difference.  Two different kinds of discussions."
 
MW, I do recognize the difference.  
If you think about it though, those normative positions  are or were part of historical matters in the sense of societal ideas and beliefs that were considered established in those times and the perspective many people in our society had at that time and the resultant actions of those people based on and because of those established societal ideas and beliefs.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #49 on: Sep 16th, 2011, 5:36am »
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on Sep 15th, 2011, 4:48pm, MW wrote:

 
 
At the risk of contradiction, here's what Bobby said:
 
Quote:Maybe the mother took drastic action, but one must realize that in a situation like this, which was supposed to be non-sexual, one could not tolerate a teeage boy displaying an erection in front of all those respectable women.  
 
So in a way the boy was shaming his mother in front of her friends, so she was rightly angry. "  
 
 
Italics furnished.  Now, I wasn't born yesterday...did he say "rightly angry"?  That's a normative argument, unqualified as to any temper of the times historical discussion.  That's a defense of a position.  I am not only a (retired) professor of political philosophy, but a licensed attorney as well, with years of practice behind me.  I think I know the difference between factual speech and polemical argument, your attempts at trying to rehabilitate his position notwithstanding.
 

 
MW, I don't think that you would make a good lawyer.  Grin
 
I didn't justify what the mother did, as you are implying.  In fact I did say in that post which you quote, and which anyone can see, that the mother took drastic action. I made this clear in my first sentence.
What I did say was that the mother was rightly angry at the boy for shaming her in front of her friends by his behaviour. But I never justified her action, quite the contrary, as I said that her reaction was drastic, that is extreme.
 
So even though I made that post in a half humorous way, you still can't fault me in it, because of your misinterpretation, and if we ended in a court of law you will lose the case.  Smiley
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #50 on: Sep 16th, 2011, 6:52am »
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However, wasn't a strict reaction necessary ?  
 
According to the behaviour sciences, it is possible to link some unwilling behaviour to a pain stimulus in order to diminish its expression.  
 
Spanking the erected boy could, as a result, of course if the associated stimulus (e.i. the pain from the spanking) is regularly linked to the unwilling behaviour, diminish the undesirable manifestation of an horny male teenager.  
 
If you agree with the behaviour sciences, on this ground the lady's reaction seems to be the most rational.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #51 on: Sep 16th, 2011, 1:01pm »
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I shouldn't have to do this, but I guess I have to say it twice:
 
Quote:
At the risk of contradiction, here's what Bobby said:  
 
"Maybe the mother took drastic action, but one must realize that in a situation like this, which was supposed to be non-sexual, one could not tolerate a teeage boy displaying an erection in front of all those respectable women.    
  
So in a way the boy was shaming his mother in front of her friends, so she was rightly angry. "  
  
 
Italics furnished.  Now, I wasn't born yesterday...did he say "rightly angry"?  That's a normative argument, unqualified as to any temper of the times historical discussion.  That's a defense of a position.  I am not only a (retired) professor of political philosophy, but a licensed attorney as well, with years of practice behind me.  I think I know the difference between factual speech and polemical argument, your attempts at trying to rehabilitate his position notwithstanding.

 
Ha-ha, as to what you said, henri, I remember when my sister was going through a really sassy stage.  She was a teen-ager.  She talked sass back to my father all the time.
 
My parents had three stages of punishment.  A spanking, a spanking of the bare bottom and a whipping, usually with a belt or switch.  Now on this one time, my sister sassed when my father was giving instruction about doing some chore or other.  So he said he was going to give her a bare-bottomed spanking.
 
My mum went apoplectic.  Ha!  But now I hear from you, henri, that behaviour science says he should have gone right ahead.  Hmmm...this could revamp the whole issue of corporeal punishment of children, not to mention a call for changes in the laws regarding child sex abuse.
 
ps: It would help if you provided a source or citation.  At this stage I don't believe you.  But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt if you even attempt to back up your claim, with empirical research, that public nudity and humiliation is an effective and proper form of child punishment.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #52 on: Sep 16th, 2011, 1:16pm »
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on Sep 16th, 2011, 6:52am, henri wrote:
However, wasn't a strict reaction necessary ?  
 
According to the behaviour sciences, it is possible to link some unwilling behaviour to a pain stimulus in order to diminish its expression.  
 
Spanking the erected boy could, as a result, of course if the associated stimulus (e.i. the pain from the spanking) is regularly linked to the unwilling behaviour, diminish the undesirable manifestation of an horny male teenager.  
 
If you agree with the behaviour sciences, on this ground the lady's reaction seems to be the most rational.

 
Henri,
I can imagine how spanking a male because they have an erection could lead to some serious psychological problems.  
It's interesting to mention here that according to some beliefs in the science of Psychology, in order for a male to feel a more significant effect from a punishment, humiliation is to be involved.  According to a close friend of mine who is a Psychologist and who is quite knowledgeable about the history of the philosophies incorporated in that science, humiliation should be a major part of punishing a male child or adolescent.  He said that the difference between a male child or adolescent repeating the offense again and not repeating it again likely has to do with whether or not humiliation was involved in the punishment after the first offense.  He further told me that years ago nudity in front of other people, usually family members or friends, was often used on male adolescents as the humiliation part of the punishment along with the humiliation of the physical punishment.  
 
Actually, this was something I already knew from personal experience.  
 
My understanding is that involving humiliation as part of the physical punishment of a male child or adolescent was a common way of thinking and practice for parents years ago and this probably accounts for at least part of the reason why Billy's foster mother spanked him in front of everyone in the pool area at the YMCA.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #53 on: Sep 16th, 2011, 1:23pm »
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MW,
Actually, in the past, I've read information pertinent to and verifying what henri wrote.  I mean that I've read theories of these types exist.  As to whether or not those theories in behavioral sciences are valid is a matter for debate.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #54 on: Sep 17th, 2011, 12:44am »
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on Sep 16th, 2011, 1:23pm, HowlingDawg wrote:
MW,
Actually, in the past, I've read information pertinent to and verifying what henri wrote.  I mean that I've read theories of these types exist.  As to whether or not those theories in behavioral sciences are valid is a matter for debate.  

 
Well, you haven't discussed or mentioned such studies, so what is your point?  My point is clear: I don't believe there are such studies.  If you had such, you would offer them.
 
Even if you remenbered something from psyc. 101 so many years ago, my opinion of undergraduate understanding (unless you went to Berkeley, Harvard or Stanford) such studies is nil.
 
Here, if you like studies of negative reinforcement, read up on the Lucifer Effect.  Phillip Zimbardo was the prison superintendant in the Stanford Prison Study.  Do you know what that is?  Pay particular attention to the chapter on the Stanford Study.
 
When you have finished, lets discuss it if you feel up to it.  Be prepared to discuss the methodology, the research design, and the findings...shocking tho they were.  Then relate it to modern examples, as Zimbardo does, and be prepared to critically discuss those examples.
 
Now I already know you are not going to read Zimbardo, nor least of all the several studies by Stanley Milgram.  So I'll give you this little cheat sheet.  But it doesn't stop there.  It requires that you get the book in hand, and look up facts and data.
 
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/philip_zimbardo_on_the_psychology_of_e vil.html
 
Go for it.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #55 on: Sep 17th, 2011, 1:27am »
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on Sep 17th, 2011, 12:44am, MW wrote:

 
Well, you haven't discussed or mentioned such studies, so what is your point?  My point is clear: I don't believe there are such studies.  If you had such, you would offer them.
 
Even if you remenbered something from psyc. 101 so many years ago, my opinion of undergraduate understanding (unless you went to Berkeley, Harvard or Stanford) such studies is nil.
 
Here, if you like studies of negative reinforcement, read up on the Lucifer Effect.  Phillip Zimbardo was the prison superintendant in the Stanford Prison Study.  Do you know what that is?  Pay particular attention to the chapter on the Stanford Study.
 
When you have finished, lets discuss it if you feel up to it.  Be prepared to discuss the methodology, the research design, and the findings...shocking tho they were.  Then relate it to modern examples, as Zimbardo does, and be prepared to critically discuss those examples.
 
Now I already know you are not going to read Zimbardo, nor least of all the several studies by Stanley Milgram.  So I'll give you this little cheat sheet.  But it doesn't stop there.  It requires that you get the book in hand, and look up facts and data.
 
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/philip_zimbardo_on_the_psychology_of_e vil.html
 
Go for it.

 
MW,
I didn't say I liked the behavioral science studies nor did I say I agreed with them.  Actually, I am very much against corporal punishment.  In my opinion, it only serves to enforce the negative idea that pain and violence are the way to solve problems.   I was merely saying casually that I remember from many years ago reading something about the behavioral science studies that henri wrote about.  
 
Don't misunderstand, MW, because I have written about an adolescent being spanked and humiliated doesn't mean I'm in favor of that type of punishment.  I am not.
 
   
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #56 on: Sep 17th, 2011, 2:19am »
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on Sep 17th, 2011, 1:27am, HowlingDawg wrote:

 
MW,
I didn't say I liked the behavioral science studies nor did I say I agreed with them.  Actually, I am very much against corporal punishment.  In my opinion, it only serves to enforce the negative idea that pain and violence are the way to solve problems.   I was merely saying casually that I remember from many years ago reading something about the behavioral science studies that henri wrote about.  
 
Don't misunderstand, MW, because I have written about an adolescent being spanked and humiliated doesn't mean I'm in favor of that type of punishment.  I am not.

 
I appreciate where you are coming from, Dawg.  But, you did say your psychologist friend recommended this type of thing.  Please understand that I react viscerally when someone starts talking favorably about negative reinforcement, not to mention corporeal punishment of children.  I never touched a hair on the head of either of my daughters.  I think it was my reaction to my own parents.
 
I do wish you would at least play the clip about the Lucifer Effect.  It would at least help you begin to understand how ugly I think corporeal punishment of children is.  I am a humanist.  Leave torture, kidnapping and murder to Republicans.  Hell, I'm still smarting over the decision not to bring Dick Cheney to justice.  Every opportunity I have to oppose cruelty...well, I guess I'll take it.
 
Even if we are talking about CFNM and here, with the YMCA thing...see, I don't like any talk here about coercion or violence.  My vision of CFNM is like feminine erotica, so far from hard core porn.   I envision gentle encounters...accidental, or perhaps skillfully engineered, but never coercion.  And I detest femdom or other sorts of  dom/submissive things, precisely because of the coercion involved.  (Soz Brad, I've read diane and some of the intellectual points I like, but not the adverse stuff.)  Actually, my whole involvement here was as a result of my interest in creative writing...it was recommended that I come over here and practice with some light erotica.  Jason and C. Jill will remember, because she used to encourage my writing.  Great help.
 
But this isn't about me.  Just wanted you to know that you and I agree.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #57 on: Sep 17th, 2011, 5:38am »
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on Sep 17th, 2011, 2:19am, MW wrote:

 
I appreciate where you are coming from, Dawg.  But, you did say your psychologist friend recommended this type of thing.  Please understand that I react viscerally when someone starts talking favorably about negative reinforcement, not to mention corporeal punishment of children.  I never touched a hair on the head of either of my daughters.  I think it was my reaction to my own parents.
 
I do wish you would at least play the clip about the Lucifer Effect.  It would at least help you begin to understand how ugly I think corporeal punishment of children is.  I am a humanist.  Leave torture, kidnapping and murder to Republicans.  Hell, I'm still smarting over the decision not to bring Dick Cheney to justice.  Every opportunity I have to oppose cruelty...well, I guess I'll take it.
 
Even if we are talking about CFNM and here, with the YMCA thing...see, I don't like any talk here about coercion or violence.  My vision of CFNM is like feminine erotica, so far from hard core porn.   I envision gentle encounters...accidental, or perhaps skillfully engineered, but never coercion.  And I detest femdom or other sorts of  dom/submissive things, precisely because of the coercion involved.  (Soz Brad, I've read diane and some of the intellectual points I like, but not the adverse stuff.)  Actually, my whole involvement here was as a result of my interest in creative writing...it was recommended that I come over here and practice with some light erotica.  Jason and C. Jill will remember, because she used to encourage my writing.  Great help.
 
But this isn't about me.  Just wanted you to know that you and I agree.

 
MW,
I'm sorry you misunderstood my post about what my Psychologist friend said.  Apparently, I wasn't clear enough in that post.  
My friend was definitely not recommending corporal punishment.  As a matter of fact, he's against it.  What he was saying is that humiliation works as a good deterrent to the offense being committed once again by the child or adolescent rather than corporal punishment.  He was not saying that corporal punishment should be combined with humiliation.  He was saying that humiliation by itself is a preferable, more effective type of punishment when compared to corporal punishment.  
He then went on to say that years ago, it was common for parents when punishing male children and adolescents, to use both corporal punishment (usually in the form of spanking) and humiliation (sometimes in the form of nudity) together.  He was not advocating either corporal punishment by itself or a combination of corporal punishment and humiliation together.  He was saying only that they were used together fairly commonly years ago.  He was speaking historically.  
He also does not agree with the idea of using nudity as a type of humiliation because it confuses the child or adolescent to think of nudity as a punishment when nudity should be thought of as something pleasurable.  
He told me that humiliation is individualistic.  What humiliates one child may not humiliate another.  Humiliation he told me should be done in front of other people.  Being made to stand in the corner facing the wall may be humiliating to a child, as an example.  
Contrary to what my friend thinks, there are some Psychologists who believe that corporal punishment is effective and should be used with humiliation and nudity is a type of humiliation suggested.  I, similar to my friend, do not agree with that way of thinking.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #58 on: Sep 17th, 2011, 6:01am »
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That what I wrote about scientific theories, I heard from my step-mother, I am not myself well informed about, explaining to her firiends why she thaught that corporal punishmente were so convenient during my upbringing as I was a male teenager.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #59 on: Sep 17th, 2011, 3:31pm »
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I feel that I must answer MW on some points he raised in answer to other posters in his last posts.
 
Quote
"I will give you the benefit of the doubt if you even attempt to back up your claim, with empirical research, that public nudity and envision gentle encounters...accidental, or perhaps skillfully engineered, but never coercion.humiliation is an effective and proper form of child punishment."
 
There is no need for scientific research papers to conclude that public nudty and humiliation is an effective form of punishment.
Ask any boy, especially a teenage boy, if he would prefer this punishment to a private spanking at home, or any other punishment for that matter.
It would definitely be effective as a deterrent for the boy not to repeat the same crime again, much more than a private spanking.
 
Whether it is "proper" or not is a totally different question,and open todiscussion.
Like you I am against corporal punishment, so public nudity as punishment should be considered as an alternative punishment, especially for juvenile criminals, and why not for adult male criminals too.  
 
You must realize that every form of punishment, whatever it may be, is cruel in that it is supposed to hurt. Thay is why it is a punishment, otherwise it won't be a punishment.
Prison is also a cruel form of punishment, even though there is no physical punishment involved. It is probably a much worse punishment than a spanking or a public shaming by nudity.
This is confirmed by studies and polls made about HS teenage students, where the majority were in favor of a spanking instead of school detention if they had a choice.
 
Quote
"I envision gentle encounters...accidental, or perhaps skillfully engineered, but never coercion.  And I detest femdom or other sorts of  dom/submissive things, precisely because of the coercion involved. "
 
Again this is just your opinion. Many people into CFNM prefer the femdom type. Much of the excitement of CFNM is the submissiveness of the male by a female. And is also something which females enjoy a lot, the power they have over the male in such situations.
 
Also again you are being contradictory, when you say at the same time that you "envision gentle encounters...accidental, or perhaps skillfully engineered, but never coercion."
Although I also like these type of encounters you must also realize that they are also a form of coercion of the female, who you don't know if she is going to accept your "accidental or sklfully enginneered" nudity.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #60 on: Sep 17th, 2011, 5:43pm »
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on Sep 17th, 2011, 3:31pm, Bobby_Bare wrote:
I feel that I must answer MW on some points he raised in answer to other posters in his last posts.
 
Quote
"I will give you the benefit of the doubt if you even attempt to back up your claim, with empirical research, that public nudity and envision gentle encounters...accidental, or perhaps skillfully engineered, but never coercion.humiliation is an effective and proper form of child punishment."
 
There is no need for scientific research papers to conclude that public nudty and humiliation is an effective form of punishment.
Ask any boy, especially a teenage boy, if he would prefer this punishment to a private spanking at home, or any other punishment for that matter.
It would definitely be effective as a deterrent for the boy not to repeat the same crime again, much more than a private spanking.
 
Whether it is "proper" or not is a totally different question,and open todiscussion.
Like you I am against corporal punishment, so public nudity as punishment should be considered as an alternative punishment, especially for juvenile criminals, and why not for adult male criminals too.  
 
You must realize that every form of punishment, whatever it may be, is cruel in that it is supposed to hurt. Thay is why it is a punishment, otherwise it won't be a punishment.
Prison is also a cruel form of punishment, even though there is no physical punishment involved. It is probably a much worse punishment than a spanking or a public shaming by nudity.
This is confirmed by studies and polls made about HS teenage students, where the majority were in favor of a spanking instead of school detention if they had a choice.
 
Quote
"I envision gentle encounters...accidental, or perhaps skillfully engineered, but never coercion.  And I detest femdom or other sorts of  dom/submissive things, precisely because of the coercion involved. "
 
Again this is just your opinion. Many people into CFNM prefer the femdom type. Much of the excitement of CFNM is the submissiveness of the male by a female. And is also something which females enjoy a lot, the power they have over the male in such situations.
 
Also again you are being contradictory, when you say at the same time that you "envision gentle encounters...accidental, or perhaps skillfully engineered, but never coercion."
Although I also like these type of encounters you must also realize that they are also a form of coercion of the female, who you don't know if she is going to accept your "accidental or sklfully enginneered" nudity.

 
Bobby Bare,
Many people, including high ranking officials of the military organizations agree with your stance on using nudity as a form of humiliating punishment.  This is the reason prisoners of war are often stripped of their clothing by an opposing military.  As another example, my step-sister/female cousin used nudity and spankings combined as a form of humiliating punishment of her male children up into their late adolescent years similarly to the way my parents punished me, my brother and my step-brother/cousin.  My ex-wife and I were at the home of my step-sister cousin a couple of times when she and her husband punished their sons.  Among her children she is the mother of twin sons.  The last time I saw my step-sister/cousin and her husband use this type of punishment was in early 1980's when the twins were 17 years old.  In front of my ex-wife, myself and their daughters (one is adopted), my step-sister/cousin's husband (my cousin by marriage) pulled down the pants of both of their twin sons and spanked them basically naked.    
One of the twins resisted when he said "I don't want you to spank me in front of her...".  By her, he was referring to my ex-wife.  Apparently, he had forgotten that my wife saw them both naked when they were around 8 years of age and younger.  My cousin told me later they had been spanked before in front of their sisters and the situation in their home was somewhat similar to that of my parent's home in that females in the family were allowed to see the males of the family naked but the males were not allowed to see the females naked.  
When my cousin's husband heard the boy say "I don't want you to spank me in front of her...", he commanded that his son come to him immediately saying "...if you know what's good for you....or I'll give you an even worse punishment...".  His son went to his dad crying.  He wasn't wearing a shirt.  His dad dropped his jeans down around his ankles fully exposing his son's body to the rest of us in the room.  
After the spanking, the boy stood up and then bent over to pull up his jeans.  My step-sister/cousin went over to him and stopped him and she grabbed his arm saying "You will apologize to everyone for being disrespectful." He started to bend over again to again try to pull up his jeans and his dad gave him a really hard whack on the bottom and said to him "Stand up straight and do as your mother told you to do, NOW!!"  
With his jeans down around his ankles and otherwise completely naked, he stood there sobbing and said "I'm sorry for being disrespectful."  
On another occasion, my step-sister/cousin told me that my step-mother (her mother) and my dad (her step dad and uncle by marriage) taught her that when punishing teenage males, most of the time, spanking and humiliation had to be included for the punishment to be effective.  My dad agreed.   My step-sister/cousin then told me that she asked my parents what they meant by humiliation and she said my step-mother replied 'Making them be naked, but it isn't enough to just have them be naked.  With some boys like your brothers,  nudity of itself isn't a punishment at all.  They'd probably run around naked all the time if the world would let them and there are a lot of boys like that.  No, spanking them naked or at least naked from the waist down in front of other people especially in front of their friends is probably the most effective type of punishment.  With your brothers, it isn't the nudity that is humiliating for them because their friends see them naked on the beach often.  It's the combination of the nudity and their being spanked and embarrassed in front of other people that causes the punishment to be effective.'  
Another example of this is the time, when I was an adolescent, I went to a party at a friend's home.  His parents were very conservative in their religious beliefs.  To make a long story short, my friend's dad was a truck driver who drank somewhat heavily and who was very muscular.  I won't explain the whole story right now but the point is that my friend ended up being spanked naked (he hadn't been wearing a shirt prior to the spanking) with his shorts down around his ankles in front of his friends.  To make matters seemingly worse for him, while his dad was trying to spank him over the knees, my friend was resisting as he was being held down with one of his dad's hands.  So, his older brother went over and held him down while their dad continued to spank him.  While he was being held down by his older brother and spanked by his dad, his little "brat" of a sister came over and pulled his shorts off his feet and then took the shorts and hid them.  There's more to this story such as my friend being spanked a second time that evening because he was dancing with a girl while he was naked and the reason he was naked was because he couldn't find his shorts (the one's his sister had hidden) and his older brother (who, by the way really is a nice guy and I'll tell you why I say this later) was teasing him by preventing him from leaving the room and putting on clothes.  Actually, before the second spanking happened, the older brother had left the room.  He came back in and told their dad that he had prevented his brother from leaving the room and that was why he was still in the room naked and then ended up dancing with the girl naked.  The older brother didn't realize that his teasing would lead to a second spanking.  
The reason I wrote that his brother was a nice guy was because he knew from previous experiences that if one of them resisted their dad's punishment, it would make him angry and the punishment would be much longer and much worse.  So, the older brother held down my friend so that the punishment would be over more expediently.  That was his logic as he explained it to me later.  He was actually protecting his brother in a way.  
The point of all this is that many people agreed in the past that humiliation in the form of nudity in front of other people combined with corporal punishment is the best, most effective type of punishment for a male child and especially for a male adolescent.  As I've stated previously, I happen to very much disagree with this way of thinking.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #61 on: Sep 17th, 2011, 10:39pm »
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on Sep 16th, 2011, 1:27am, HowlingDawg wrote:
MW,
Here is what Bobby Bare wrote:
 
"Maybe the mother took drastic action, but one must realize that in a situation like this, which was supposed to be non-sexual, one could not tolerate a teenage boy displaying an erection in front of all those respectable women.  
So in a way the boy was shaming his mother in front of her friends, so she was rightly angry."

 
Pertaining to the last sentence, here is what I think Bobby Bare meant:
 
"So in a way the boy was shaming his mother in front of her friends, so she was rightly angry in accordance with the societal thinking of that time and perhaps her  religious and/or her psychological beliefs pertaining to the subject of erections."
 
Perhaps I read into his post but the above interpretation is the way I always interpreted his post.  
 
By way of example, let's compare this to a subject that a lot of people detest today, abortion.  A doctor who performs an abortion today is not breaking any laws.  However, that does not mean that in the future a doctor who performed abortions in the past won't be viewed from the perspective of a future influenced viewpoint of utter disdain.  
In other words you seem to be making a judgment about Billy's mother's behavior and Bobby Bare's defense of it from a "modern day" and more liberal perspective when, in actuality, in 1949 or 1950 when this situation happened, many women and probably some men would have agreed with Billy's mother's behavior if given a chance.  It is highly possible that if Billy's mother would not have punished Billy because of his erection (because of the erroneous way of thinking back then by many people in our society) the other women and girls would have felt highly insulted.  
Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying their thinking and the resultant actions were right.  I'm saying that perhaps the women were very much affected by the thinking of their time.  
You're right I am voicing an opinion about Bobby Bare's post.  It is my interpretation of what he wrote and not Bobby Bare's actual words.  BB is the only one who can tell us if my interpretation is the same as the one he intended.  Once again, making an interpretation of BB's words, it seems as though I am correct in my interpretation of what he wrote.  

 
But he didn't say that did he?  And even if he does, how do we know it's not just an after-the-fact explanation?  I guess bobby will have to live with his own words.  Anyway, I've moved on.
 
Quote:
You wrote:
"You are now changing the subject back into a factual discussion about historical matters, not normative positions.  I don't mind if you do that.  I just call upon you to recognize the difference.  Two different kinds of discussions."
 
MW, I do recognize the difference.  
If you think about it though, those normative positions  are or were part of historical matters in the sense of societal ideas and beliefs that were considered established in those times and the perspective many people in our society had at that time and the resultant actions of those people based on and because of those established societal ideas and beliefs.

 
No, that is not what he said.  I used the word "unqualified" in anticipation of this very argument.  He did not qualify his words with any indication that he was making a historical summary.
 
I can be forgiving, but I'm not a pussy, Dawg.  But fear not, Bobby and I will agree on the next one. Lol.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #62 on: Sep 17th, 2011, 10:54pm »
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on Sep 17th, 2011, 3:31pm, Bobby_Bare wrote:
I feel that I must answer MW on some points he raised in answer to other posters in his last posts.
 
Quote
"I will give you the benefit of the doubt if you even attempt to back up your claim, with empirical research, that public nudity and envision gentle encounters...accidental, or perhaps skillfully engineered, but never coercion.humiliation is an effective and proper form of child punishment."

 
Bobby, please do me the courtesy of quoting me correctly.  Here is what I said:
 
Quote:
But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt if you even attempt to back up your claim, with empirical research, that public nudity and humiliation is an effective and proper form of child punishment.

 
It doesn't do any good to cloud the issue.
 
Incidentally, that was a post in response to henri, not anyone else.  I don't mind if you borrow it, but I do mind if you misquote me.
 
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #63 on: Sep 17th, 2011, 11:37pm »
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Forcing nudity on boys (because let's face it, it's usually boys inflicted with this, not girls) as a means of humiliation is despicable,and anyone who would do that deserves death. I'm sure some might think that's harsh,but considering that those who do this are killing his very being, it's not harsh at all. Attempting to justify it by saying it's effective is ridiculous, since locking them up in a cage and forcing them to eat their own feces and drink their own urine would also be effective.  
 
Forced nudity as humiliation for punishment might have the immediate effects that are considered "effective", but the long term effects are very damaging. One of those effects are general anger at the world that results in violence. If it was a woman inflicting the humiliation,that violence would be directed at women. It would be interesting to know the percentage of rapists who were humiliated by women in one way or another. I'm aware that not all victims of humiliation will become violent.Unfortunately,that doesn't mean they end up ok.
 
Those who don't become violent just end up depressed,having a sense of self-loathing,and generally apathetic.While they have anger issues, they'll take the anger out on themselves as  opposed to the ones who take it out on the world. Humiliation is one of the worst things one can suffer.Physical beatings hurt for the moment, and the wounds will heal.The wounds of humiliation don't heal.They stay with you for life. Those wounds affect  how you feel about others,how you feel about yourself,how you treat others ,and how you treat yourself.
 
CFNM is fine when it involves consenting adults.Humiliation as part of CFNM is fine as long as it involves consenting adults,because that humiliation is a controlled humiliation.The man being humiliated chooses to be humiliated.Involving children in CFNM is unacceptable.Those who use nudity as punishment to humiliate children (boys being the main victims)  are doing just that. I don't doubt that people who do this to kids do so because they themselves get some sick thrill out of it.What it is, is child abuse.
 
 
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #64 on: Sep 17th, 2011, 11:54pm »
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on Sep 17th, 2011, 3:31pm, Bobby_Bare wrote:
Ask any boy, especially a teenage boy, if he would prefer this punishment to a private spanking at home, or any other punishment for that matter.
It would definitely be effective as a deterrent for the boy not to repeat the same crime again, much more than a private spanking.
 
Whether it is "proper" or not is a totally different question,and open todiscussion.
Like you I am against corporal punishment, so public nudity as punishment should be considered as an alternative punishment, especially for juvenile criminals, and why not for adult male criminals too.  
 
You must realize that every form of punishment, whatever it may be, is cruel in that it is supposed to hurt. Thay is why it is a punishment, otherwise it won't be a punishment.
Prison is also a cruel form of punishment, even though there is no physical punishment involved. It is probably a much worse punishment than a spanking or a public shaming by nudity.
This is confirmed by studies and polls made about HS teenage students, where the majority were in favor of a spanking instead of school detention if they had a choice.

 
So, you think that boys who undergo involuntary erections should be treated like prisoners?  Or at least you are saying that, say, a ten-year prison sentence is the equibalent punishment to spanking and public nudity.  Man, you are worse than Dick Cheney.
 
Quote:

"I envision gentle encounters...accidental, or perhaps skillfully engineered, but never coercion.  And I detest femdom or other sorts of  dom/submissive things, precisely because of the coercion involved. "
 
Also again you are being contradictory, when you say at the same time that you "envision gentle encounters...accidental, or perhaps skillfully engineered, but never coercion."
Although I also like these type of encounters you must also realize that they are also a form of coercion of the female, who you don't know if she is going to accept your "accidental or sklfully enginneered" nudity.

 
I had in mind that the female was "accidentally or skilfully engineering" the CFNM.  Obviously, given my whole thesis, I didn't have in mind manipulating the woman.  In fact, as Brad will tell you, I have opposed any tricks or maneuvers to get women into CFNM involuntarily.
 
We had this discussion a couple of months ago, and I warned (as a legal expert) that it could be construed as unwanted public nudity, which is a crime.  I believe Brad said he was banning any posts about involuntary CFNM imposed upon women, which I agree with totally.
 
It's far too late to say I favor involuntary CFNM imposed upon women.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #65 on: Sep 18th, 2011, 12:09am »
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on Sep 17th, 2011, 11:37pm, somedude wrote:
Forcing nudity on boys (because let's face it, it's usually boys inflicted with this, not girls) as a means of humiliation is despicable,and anyone who would do that deserves death. I'm sure some might think that's harsh,but considering that those who do this are killing his very being, it's not harsh at all. Attempting to justify it by saying it's effective is ridiculous, since locking them up in a cage and forcing them to eat their own feces and drink their own urine would also be effective.  
 
Forced nudity as humiliation for punishment might have the immediate effects that are considered "effective", but the long term effects are very damaging. One of those effects are general anger at the world that results in violence. If it was a woman inflicting the humiliation,that violence would be directed at women. It would be interesting to know the percentage of rapists who were humiliated by women in one way or another. I'm aware that not all victims of humiliation will become violent.Unfortunately,that doesn't mean they end up ok.
 
Those who don't become violent just end up depressed,having a sense of self-loathing,and generally apathetic.While they have anger issues, they'll take the anger out on themselves as  opposed to the ones who take it out on the world. Humiliation is one of the worst things one can suffer.Physical beatings hurt for the moment, and the wounds will heal.The wounds of humiliation don't heal.They stay with you for life. Those wounds affect  how you feel about others,how you feel about yourself,how you treat others ,and how you treat yourself.
 
CFNM is fine when it involves consenting adults.Humiliation as part of CFNM is fine as long as it involves consenting adults,because that humiliation is a controlled humiliation.The man being humiliated chooses to be humiliated.Involving children in CFNM is unacceptable.Those who use nudity as punishment to humiliate children (boys being the main victims)  are doing just that. I don't doubt that people who do this to kids do so because they themselves get some sick thrill out of it.What it is, is child abuse.

 
+1.  I could not have said it better.  Brilliant!
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #66 on: Sep 18th, 2011, 6:50am »
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I wonder whether my cfnm experience was consensual or not : at the beach, and for spanking. The link between is : if I showed some reluctance to be nude in public, I was threaten to get a spanking or to accumulate, if I didn't accept a bare bottom spanking in front of my step-sisters, a lot of privations (money, freedom to go out alone...etc.). So I accepted my spanking, because of prefering a hard but time-limited suffering to a periode of some months without money, access to tennis-club...etc. Perhaps was I secretly aroused, thinking to the experience of dressing off my underwear. Of course I was humiliated, however, I choosed all the time the spanking solution. I remember my step-mother grining, a day when one of her friend was at home : "OK boy, it is not exactly the way you would like to taking off your briefs in front of females, doesnt it ?". So I was horny that I could not avoid to ejaculate in the middle of the session !  
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #67 on: Sep 18th, 2011, 8:05am »
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on Sep 17th, 2011, 10:39pm, MW wrote:

 
But he didn't say that did he?  And even if he does, how do we know it's not just an after-the-fact explanation?  I guess bobby will have to live with his own words.  Anyway, I've moved on.
 
 
No, that is not what he said.  I used the word "unqualified" in anticipation of this very argument.  He did not qualify his words with any indication that he was making a historical summary.

 
MW,
  I don't think there is anything to qualify because my post you are referring to is self-explanatory.
It is about a particular situation in a particular period of time. There is no way of interpreting it otherwise, as you are trying to do.
 
Even if your interpretation is taken into account,  this would be invalid  because there is no similar situation today of teenage boys being made to swim nude in front of mothers and their female friends. So your interpretation of me applying this to a present situation is invalid.
So it is obviously from a historical point of view, which I don't think I needed to state  in my post.
 
But even if this same situation happened today, I would still say the same. A mother and other women present cannot allow teenage boys to sport erections in front of them, and young girls that may be present.
This is for several reasons. Mainly, if it was allowed it would become a sexual, rather than a non-sexual, situation of nude boys swimming.  
If allowed it would also lead to other unacceptable situations, like the horny boys handling and touching their erections, which would be a natural progression if the mothers, or other females in charge, ignored it.
Further this would also encourage other boys present to do the same, since no one objected to it. And thus the whole situation would get out of hand.
 
I hope that you begin to understand the whole meaning of the situation, and why I was right to say what I did, even if we take your interpretation into consideration.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #68 on: Sep 18th, 2011, 8:35am »
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on Sep 17th, 2011, 11:54pm, MW wrote:

 
>>So, you think that boys who undergo involuntary erections should be treated like prisoners?  Or at least you are saying that, say, a ten-year prison sentence is the equibalent punishment to spanking and public nudity.  Man, you are worse than Dick Cheney. <<

 
I think you have made a stupid comment here, because you are referring to two totally different situations, which I never implied.
Punishment by publlic nudity is a different subject than the story referred to about the boy's erection in an already nude situation.
Also I never made any connection with that incident and prison sentences versus public nudity punishments.
So please get your reading comprehension right before making such comments.
 
Quote
"I had in mind that the female was "accidentally or skilfully engineering" the CFNM.  Obviously, given my whole thesis, I didn't have in mind manipulating the woman.  In fact, as Brad will tell you, I have opposed any tricks or maneuvers to get women into CFNM involuntarily."
 
But you didn't say this in your post.  The way that you were implying it is that it was you who "favored accidentally or skilfully engineering a CFNM situation."
It's no use trying to change the meaning now, because it is obvious.
Well, at least you corrected yourself.
 
But even if it is as you say now it would still be a coecion of  the male by the female, because in itself something "accidentally or skilfully enginneeered" impliies surprise and without the knowledge or prior consent of the victim.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #69 on: Sep 18th, 2011, 1:06pm »
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somedude,
You wrote:
 
"Forcing nudity on boys (because let's face it, it's usually boys inflicted with this, not girls) as a means of humiliation is despicable,and anyone who would do that deserves death. I'm sure some might think that's harsh,but considering that those who do this are killing his very being, it's not harsh at all."
 
I think your comment here is too general and too extreme.  I'm not saying that nudity should be forced on boys as a means of humiliation.  But I disagree that those who have done it should be put to death.  Keep in mind that parents did this more commonly years ago because it was thought of as the right thing to do for the good of the male child.  It was also sometimes combined with the humiliation of a spanking which was also thought of as being "the right thing to do for the good of the male child".    
Even today some Psychologists believe that forced nudity in front of others for the purpose of humiliation is a preferred type of punishment for male adolescents and in some cases a male child above a certain age instead of physical punishment such as spanking.  A friend of mine who is a Psychologist told me this.  He happens to disagree that nudity humiliation should be used as a punishment.  I also do not agree.  But, there are some Psychologists who recommend this to parents in certain cases.
Indeed, military organizations use forced nudity as a means of intimidation and humiliation.  They also use forced nudity as a way of indoctrination.      
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #70 on: Sep 18th, 2011, 1:19pm »
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somedude is more silly than dick cheney and georges bush taken together !
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #71 on: Sep 18th, 2011, 1:30pm »
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on Sep 18th, 2011, 8:05am, Bobby_Bare wrote:

But even if this same situation happened today, I would still say the same. A mother and other women present cannot allow teenage boys to sport erections in front of them, and young girls that may be present. This is for several reasons. Mainly, if it was allowed it would become a sexual, rather than a non-sexual, situation of nude boys swimming.  
 
If allowed it would also lead to other unacceptable situations, like the horny boys handling and touching their erections, which would be a natural progression if the mothers, or other females in charge, ignored it.
 
Further this would also encourage other boys present to do the same, since no one objected to it. And thus the whole situation would get out of hand.

Well, I never!  You say if a mother doesn’t parade her son’s raging erections to her friends and their little girls, while paddling their little boodies, the boys will go obsessive and run completely amuck.  Maybe this is happening right now in Oakland.  Those are not racial or drug-related gangs.  They are hoards of bad boys displaying outrageous boners, wanking off at Jack London Square and other venues.  Mothers and daughters shiver behind curtains while reckless, depraved boys vie to see who’s cum shot goes further.
 
If only mothers had displayed their sons’ boners to friends and little girls, and permitted them to wack away with little paddles.  Civilization might have been saved.  O what fools we’ve all been.
 
 

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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #72 on: Sep 18th, 2011, 2:34pm »
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on Sep 6th, 2011, 5:21am, Bobby_Bare wrote:
My Dad was on our YMCA's board of directors at the time I was taking lessons. He had absolutely no sympathy when I complained about how embarrassing it was being nude in front of sisters, moms, and other females my age. He had experienced the same thing as a boy and, "It didn't hurt me," he used to say. He said, "Concentrate on swimming and forget who is watching."

Wow, too bad my sons didn't have this to go through.  I have a way to make them feel better.  "Son" I would say to them, "I will make you feel much better about all this. I will join you naked at the pool. Whenever you are there I will be there with you."  Think that would have worked?  Grin
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #73 on: Sep 18th, 2011, 4:01pm »
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on Sep 18th, 2011, 1:19pm, henri wrote:
somedude is more silly than dick cheney and georges bush taken together !

 
I think Somedude and MW were indoctrinated under the "politically correct" liberals.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #74 on: Sep 18th, 2011, 6:57pm »
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on Sep 18th, 2011, 8:05am, Bobby_Bare wrote:

But even if this same situation happened today, I would still say the same. A mother and other women present cannot allow teenage boys to sport erections in front of them, and young girls that may be present.
This is for several reasons. Mainly, if it was allowed it would become a sexual, rather than a non-sexual, situation of nude boys swimming.  
If allowed it would also lead to other unacceptable situations, like the horny boys handling and touching their erections, which would be a natural progression if the mothers, or other females in charge, ignored it.
Further this would also encourage other boys present to do the same, since no one objected to it. And thus the whole situation would get out of hand.

 
 
There are some pictures of men with our fetish nude in public with an erection.What should be their punishment? Their displaying of an erection in front of females is clearly unacceptable.,according to you.Or wait, is it only unacceptable for a teenage boy, whose control of it is less than  an adult?
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #75 on: Sep 18th, 2011, 7:05pm »
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on Sep 18th, 2011, 1:06pm, HowlingDawg wrote:

 
I think your comment here is too general and too extreme.  I'm not saying that nudity should be forced on boys as a means of humiliation.  But I disagree that those who have done it should be put to death.  Keep in mind that parents did this more commonly years ago because it was thought of as the right thing to do for the good of the male child.  It was also sometimes combined with the humiliation of a spanking which was also thought of as being "the right thing to do for the good of the male child".    

 
 
What might have been done in the past is irrelevant.There are plenty of things no one thought was wrong, but that doesn't mean it wasn't.Something doesn't become wrong only when you become aware that it's wrong.
 
 
on Sep 18th, 2011, 1:06pm, HowlingDawg wrote:

Even today some Psychologists believe that forced nudity in front of others for the purpose of humiliation is a preferred type of punishment for male adolescents and in some cases a male child above a certain age instead of physical punishment such as spanking.  A friend of mine who is a Psychologist told me this.  He happens to disagree that nudity humiliation should be used as a punishment.  I also do not agree.  But, there are some Psychologists who recommend this to parents in certain cases.
Indeed, military organizations use forced nudity as a means of intimidation and humiliation.  They also use forced nudity as a way of indoctrination.      

 
Claiming psychologists believe this or that doesn't make it so.Why don't you provide some psychological studies where psychologists claim to believe what you claim they believe? If psychologists believe this, surely there would d be scholarly papers one can reference.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #76 on: Sep 18th, 2011, 7:13pm »
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on Sep 18th, 2011, 1:19pm, henri wrote:
somedude is more silly than dick cheney and georges bush taken together !

 
 
Yes, because being opposed to child abuse is the silliest position anyone can take.Who cares if a child is emotionally destroyed? Who cares if stripping him of his dignity and humanity might cause him to lash out against himself or others? All that matters is you gt him to behave for a little while.Yea, that's sound reasoning.
 
By the way, it's you and anyone else who agrees that in line with Bush and Cheney, as they are in full support of forced nudity as punishment a la Abu Ghraib.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #77 on: Sep 18th, 2011, 7:24pm »
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on Sep 18th, 2011, 4:01pm, Bobby_Bare wrote:

 
I think Somedude and MW were indoctrinated under the "politically correct" liberals.  

 
 
So opposition to child abuse is a liberal, politically correct  position?  
 
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #78 on: Sep 18th, 2011, 8:16pm »
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on Sep 18th, 2011, 4:01pm, Bobby_Bare wrote:

 
I think Somedude and MW were indoctrinated under the "politically correct" liberals.  

 
Ha-ha!  I love it.  I suppose pedophilia is now a part of the conservative platform.  Gives a whole new meaning to t-bags, doesn't it.
 
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #79 on: Sep 18th, 2011, 8:23pm »
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on Sep 18th, 2011, 7:24pm, somedude wrote:

 
 
So opposition to child abuse is a liberal, politically correct  position?  
 

 
Child abuse has nothing to do with what we are discussing here. We are talking about errant teenage and male adult behaviour in public, and what punishment or correction should be applied to control such errant behaviour.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #80 on: Sep 18th, 2011, 8:30pm »
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on Sep 18th, 2011, 2:34pm, jeffie wrote:

Wow, too bad my sons didn't have this to go through.  I have a way to make them feel better.  "Son" I would say to them, "I will make you feel much better about all this. I will join you naked at the pool. Whenever you are there I will be there with you."  Think that would have worked?  Grin

 
Oh yes.  Much more supportive for the young man than a paddling.  As soon as all the girls arrive I'll join you.
 
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #81 on: Sep 18th, 2011, 8:50pm »
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on Sep 18th, 2011, 8:23pm, Bobby_Bare wrote:

 
Child abuse has nothing to do with what we are discussing here. We are talking about errant teenage and male adult behaviour in public, and what punishment or correction should be applied to control such errant behaviour.

 
 
And you believe that stripping someone of their dignity and humanity is an appropriate punishment?
 
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #82 on: Sep 18th, 2011, 9:48pm »
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on Sep 18th, 2011, 8:23pm, Bobby_Bare wrote:

 
Child abuse has nothing to do with what we are discussing here. We are talking about errant teenage and male adult behaviour in public, and what punishment or correction should be applied to control such errant behaviour.

 
Bobby, you need to go back to school.
 
Yes, forcing your child to expose his genitals to the public, whether mothers, their friends or their daughters, is illegal today.  It's grouped with some laws that are called "child abuse."
 
I quote from the California Code, but states usually follow the California lead--
 
Quote:
Penal Code §11164, et seq.  
What Constitutes Abuse: Sexual abuse or exploitation as listed by incident in 11165.1; neglect; willful cruelty or unjustifiable punishment; any physical injury inflicted other than by accidental means

 
The list includes "physical pain, mental suffering or the endangerment of the child's person or health."  In all states, the law outlaws physical abuse, neglect, sexual abuse, sexual exploitation, emotional abuse, parental substance abuse, and abandonment.  The incidents you have described would fall into sexual abuse, sexual exploitation and emotional abuse.
 
Oh, have you heard that Mormons can no longer have plural marriages?  That happened in 1925.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #83 on: Sep 18th, 2011, 10:18pm »
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on Sep 18th, 2011, 7:05pm, somedude wrote:

 
 
What might have been done in the past is irrelevant.There are plenty of things no one thought was wrong, but that doesn't mean it wasn't.Something doesn't become wrong only when you become aware that it's wrong.

 
Often, what is regards as either "right or wrong" has no actual basis in morality but is rather a dictate of a particular society.  
 
on Sep 18th, 2011, 7:05pm, somedude wrote:

 
Claiming psychologists believe this or that doesn't make it so.Why don't you provide some psychological studies where psychologists claim to believe what you claim they believe? If psychologists believe this, surely there would d be scholarly papers one can reference.

 
I have never actually studied the situation myself.  I was giving information on this thread that was told to me by a Psychologist friend of mine.  I'll ask him if he knows of any such "scholorly papers".  
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #84 on: Sep 18th, 2011, 10:27pm »
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on Sep 18th, 2011, 9:48pm, MW wrote:

 
Bobby, you need to go back to school.
 
Yes, forcing your child to expose his genitals to the public, whether mothers, their friends or their daughters, is illegal today.  It's grouped with some laws that are called "child abuse."
 
I quote from the California Code, but states usually follow the California lead--
 
 
Oh, have you heard that Mormons can no longer have plural marriage?  That happened in 1925.

 
MW,  
I would like to read the law which states that causing a child to expose his genitals to others is illegal.  If it is illegal, I know a few parents who are breaking the law.  One in particular allows their 6 year old son to run around naked in front of guests after a bath.  Another example is recently I was at the home of a business associate and one of the guests at their party was a woman who was talking with the woman who owns the home with her husband.  They had been carrying on a conversation and it was time for her 11 year old son to have his nightly bath.  They continued their conversation in the bathroom while the boy's mother (the woman who owns the house) was giving her son a bath.  I saw this because someone called for the woman and I went to tell her about the call.  By the way, this happened in California.  
While I don't agree with their lifestyle, I also think defensively of the choice made by nudists who raise their children in the "nudist lifestyle".  Are you telling me they are also breaking the law in California?  That's ridiculous.    
In another state, I've been to a gym with another man with whom I've done business.  His 14 year old son went with us and after we exercised, we all went to the locker room where there was a jacuzzi and suana.  The man and I both went nude in the jacuzzi but his son started to get in with his "workout shorts" on and his dad stopped him and told him to take the shorts off because everyone else in the jacuzzi was naked and because he said his son looked "silly" wearing them when there were no women around.  
Are you telling me that if we would have been in California, he would have been breaking the law? That's an absurd law in my opinion.  Parents should be allowed to dictate the state of dress of their children even if it's nudity.  Light spanking but not corporal punishment (heavy paddling) should also be allowed but not to the extent where it causes physical damage and should only be used when there is no alternative and as a "last resort".   I've heard of parents who use nudity to control their male adolescent children when those adolescent children threaten running away and I'm not talking about a situation where the parents have been abusive.  I'm talking about a situation where the adolescent child has been using drugs or some other type of errant behavior and is defiant to his parents.
 
I was spanked and had corporal punishment as a child and an adolescent.  Psychologically, I've been told I am very well adjusted as an adult.  I also was frequently naked in front of the female members of my family as was my brother and my step-brother/male cousin.  There was no choice but to be naked in front of them and we (my brothers and I) never thought anything about it.  In other words, we didn't mind being seen naked by the female members of our family. Furthermore, sometimes I was put in a position when I was naked because of one or both of my parents actions or words when I probably would have preferred not to be such as a previously mentioned time when I was mostly naked and spanked in front of my uncle and aunt and their children.  It didn't cause long term hurt or psychological problems at all.  I didn't go out and commit any crimes because of it.  Maybe it might cause problems for some people though.    
 
Also, somewhat different subject:  I looked at the clip you sent to me.  It was very very interesting.  I am planning to watch it again.  Thank you.  
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #85 on: Sep 18th, 2011, 10:40pm »
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on Sep 18th, 2011, 10:18pm, HowlingDawg wrote:

 
Often, what is regards as either "right or wrong" has no actual basis in morality but is rather a dictate of a particular society.

 
And with good reason.  Right and wrong can be too fickle.  The law measures child abuse according to the wellbeing of the child.
 
Quote:
I have never actually studied the situation myself.  I was giving information on this thread that was told to me by a Psychologist friend of mine.  I'll ask him if he knows of any such "scholorly papers".  

 
I would hope he does.  Unless he wrote the book, his speculation is no  better than the man in the street.
 
I would be interested in hearing what he has to say.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #86 on: Sep 18th, 2011, 10:58pm »
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on Sep 18th, 2011, 10:27pm, HowlingDawg wrote:

 
MW,  
I would like to read the law which states that causing a child to expose his genitals to others is illegal.  If it is illegal, I know a few parents who are breaking the law.  One in particular allows their 6 year old son to run around naked in front of guests after a bath.  Another example is recently I was at the home of a business associate and one of the guests at their party was a woman who was talking with the woman who owns the home with her husband.  They had been carrying on a conversation and it was time for her 11 year old son to have bath.  They continued their conversation in the bathroom while the boy's mother (the woman who owns the house) was giving her son a bath.  I saw this because someone called for the woman and I went to tell her about the call.  By the way, this happened in California.  
Also, I looked at the clip you sent to me.  It was very very interesting.  I am planning to watch it again.  

 
Hi Dawg,
 
Well, your friends who are allowing their kid (beyond, say, infant stage) to run around nude are skating on thin ice.  Please tell them for me that a zealous prosecutor could bring charges.  A jury might not convict them, but after $50,000 in legal fees the damage is already done.  
 
An eleven-year-old is going to reap a definate conviction.  Your friend, whoever she is, committed a felony that could not only earn her jail time, but a permanent place on the sex offenders list.
 
The clip on the Stanford Prison Study is well worth a second look.  I was at Berkeley when it was conducted.  What is Berkeley from Stanford?  Maybe 21-22 miles?  Berkeley is much more liberal than Stanford.  We were horrified.  I remember suggesting prosecutions.  I will tell you, those guys barely got out of the Bay area alive.  I still question the morality of those who conceived and conducted that study.  
 
Lombardo has still not earned my forgiveness.  Interesting that he has taken to popular media for his publication.  Can't get a job in academia?  Hmmm...
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #87 on: Sep 18th, 2011, 11:09pm »
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MW,
Please read again my post #85.  I edited it and added to it.  You will probably have different or additional comments after reading the edited and augmented post.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #88 on: Sep 18th, 2011, 11:16pm »
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on Sep 18th, 2011, 10:58pm, MW wrote:

 
Hi Dawg,
 
Well, your friends who are allowing their kid (beyond, say, infant stage) to run around nude are skating on thin ice.  Please tell them for me that a zealous prosecutor could bring charges.  A jury might not convict them, but after $50,000 in legal fees the damage is already done.  
 
An eleven-year-old is going to reap a definate conviction.  Your friend, whoever she is, committed a felony that could not only earn her jail time, but a permanent place on the sex offenders list.
 
The clip on the Stanford Prison Study is well worth a second look.  I was at Berkeley when it was conducted.  What is Berkeley from Stanford?  Maybe 21-22 miles?  Berkeley is much more liberal than Stanford.  We were horrified.  I remember suggesting prosecutions.  I will tell you, those guys barely got out of the Bay area alive.  I still question the morality of those who conceived and conducted that study.  
 
Lombardo has still not earned my forgiveness.  Interesting that he has taken to popular media for his publication.  Can't get a job in academia?  Hmmm...

 
MW,  
This is ridiculous!  The government enacts too many really stupid laws.  I could understand and agree that a child should not be abused but what was happening pertaining to the 6 year old boy and the 11 year old being given a bath was most definitely not child abuse.  As a matter of fact, when I looked in the bathroom to tell the boy's mother about the phone call, the boy was smiling and talking with the two women as his mother was washing his hair.  He certainly didn't look like he thought he was being abused.  No one was causing him any type of physical or mental pain so how could that situation possibly be construed as "child abuse"?  It won't be long before the laws will be such that parents will have no parental rights at all.  Everything they do will be controlled by the government.  I'm from California and this particular law is absolute nonsense in my opinion if it would call these situations "child abuse".  
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #89 on: Sep 18th, 2011, 11:38pm »
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MW,
To elaborate on this a little more, both of the previously mentioned children are very well cared for. They have loving, caring parents.  The situations I wrote about were isolated ones as neither one of these parents have parties with more than one or two guests in their home very often.  
 
But, it seems to me that you're telling us that if only one guest was there, let's say a close friend of their family, that if that guest happened to see the 6 year old boy running around naked, or in the other case, saw the 11 year old boy naked, the parents would be guilty of a crime?  Once again, I think that is more than ridiculous.  It's ludicrous!  In no way, were either one of these children being abused.
 
The California government should stop making these "control everyone's personal life" absurd laws and instead enact laws that will actually help that failing state.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #90 on: Sep 18th, 2011, 11:51pm »
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on Sep 18th, 2011, 10:27pm, HowlingDawg wrote:

 
 Another example is recently I was at the home of a business associate and one of the guests at their party was a woman who was talking with the woman who owns the home with her husband.  They had been carrying on a conversation and it was time for her 11 year old son to have his nightly bath.  They continued their conversation in the bathroom while the boy's mother (the woman who owns the house) was giving her son a bath.  I saw this because someone called for the woman and I went to tell her about the call.  
  

 
So was this 11 year old mentally disabled? He must have been because what 11 year old can't bathe himself?
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #91 on: Sep 19th, 2011, 12:15am »
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on Sep 18th, 2011, 10:18pm, HowlingDawg wrote:

 
Often, what is regards as either "right or wrong" has no actual basis in morality but is rather a dictate of a particular society.  
 

 
Don't give me that "society dictates morality" crap.If you're harmed, then it's wrong regardless of what society thinks.Slavery has always been wrong.It wasn't right because society said it was,and it didn't become wrong when society recognized it as wrong.Slavery is dehumanizing.You know who thinks slavery IS right? Slave owners. Forcing nudity to humiliate someone is dehumanizing.The effects last a lifetime.So its wrong because of the fact that it does such harm.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #92 on: Sep 19th, 2011, 12:56am »
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on Sep 18th, 2011, 11:16pm, HowlingDawg wrote:

 
MW,  
This is ridiculous!  The government enacts too many really stupid laws.  I could understand and agree that a child should not be abused but what was happening pertaining to the 6 year old boy and the 11 year old being given a bath was most definitely not child abuse.  As a matter of fact, when I looked in the bathroom to tell the boy's mother about the phone call, the boy was smiling and talking with the two women as his mother was washing his hair.  He certainly didn't look like he thought he was being abused.  No one was causing him any type of physical or mental pain so how could that situation possibly be construed as "child abuse"?  It won't be long before the laws will be such that parents will have no parental rights at all.  Everything they do will be controlled by the government.  I'm from California and this particular law is absolute nonsense in my opinion if it would call these situations "child abuse".  

 
Dawg,
 
That's your opinion.  The legislatures rely on expert testimony and visceral instincts of their own.  All it takes is a Jacee Lee Dugard story to hit the front page of the papers, and whatever laws don't apply are soon made to apply.
 
Jacee Lee Dugard was 11 years old when she was kidnapped on June 10, 1991 in South Lake Tahoe.  She was held for 18 years and forced to bear two children to her kidnapper.  In the wake of that story, still think the abuse laws won't apply to 11-year olds?
 
And don't give me this about that's different just because it's a mother bathing her son.  The general public doesn't care.  The general public hears "11-year old" and it hears "abused" and that's all it takes.  That woman could be exposing herself to a permanent label: sex offender.
 
That mother would be dead meat if she got caught.
 
Additionally, you should know that certain specified persons, by law, are required to report to the authorities.  I'm speaking of health care providers, firemen, policemen, welfare officials...etc. the list goes on and on...on pain of criminal penalties of their own.  Big brother, if you know what I mean.  If that mother were observed bathing that 11-year old by some health care worker or teacher or, say, a city employee in the Clerk's office, they would be obligated to turn her in the next day.  Often, they are just friends of a friend who are invited to the party...like, the friend of the date of your girlfriend's sister's aunt.  Bingo.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #93 on: Sep 19th, 2011, 1:25am »
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on Sep 18th, 2011, 11:51pm, somedude wrote:

 
So was this 11 year old mentally disabled? He must have been because what 11 year old can't bathe himself?

 
somedude,
Actually, he was very intelligent and probably more than capable of bathing himself.  For some reason, he preferred to have his mom bathe him.  I have no idea why.  There didn't seem to be any harm done so who was I to question the way their family operates? I was merely a guest in their home and I didn't really know them all that well.  
Actually, come to think of it, when I was 17 years old I stayed overnight at a friend's house who was also 17 at that time.  We were watching television when his mother came into the room and told my friend that it was time for his bath.  He asked if he could finish watching the show and his mom allowed him 5 more minutes.  She came back about 5 minutes later but the show still wasn't over and she was not willing to wait any longer.  She threatened him with "the switch" so he got up and went to take his bath.  After the show ended, which was only a few minutes after he left the room, I went to find him to tell him how the show ended.  I found him in the bathroom.  He was standing up naked in the tub as his mother was soaping his body with a wash rag.  He turned and looked and me and then looked down at the floor.  I waited for him in his room.  He came in naked a little while later and told me that his mom likes giving him a bath and gets upset if he asks her not to do it.  Then he asked me to please not tell anyone else that we knew that his mom gives him a bath.  
I could tell he was embarrassed so I arranged for him to be over at my house when my step-sister/cousin would come into the bathroom when I was in the tub so that he could see her wash my hair which she did sometimes.  She also washed my older brother's hair sometimes simply because she liked doing it.  I thought that if he saw my step-sister/cousin wash my hair it would make him feel better because he would see that a female in my family washed my hair while I was naked in the tub similarly to the way his mom washed him while he was naked in the tub.  
I told my friend that he could come into the bathroom and talk with me while I took a bath.  I had previously told my step-sister/cousin that I wanted her to wash my hair (which she often did anyway) and the "special" reason I wanted her to do this.  
I was sitting in the tub talking to my friend when my brother walked past the door and waved at me.  He had gone out of town and wasn't expected back until the next day.  About 2 or 3 minutes later he came into the bathroom naked and started getting into the tub with me.  We often took baths together.  This started when we were both children (he was actually about 4 years older than me) and continued at my parents home until I was 20 and he was 23.  When I was in my late 20's and living away from home, he came to visit me and, he and I ended up int the tub together, smoking cigars and drinking brandy as we laughed about the "old times".    
After my brother got in the tub, my step-sister/cousin came in and not only washed my hair in front of my friend but also washed my brother's hair.  My plan for making everything "even" between my friend and I worked.  After that, he became much more "open" and relaxed around me since the time I had seen him being bathed by his mother.  
The reason I told you all of the above is to illustrate how very different families can be.  If you always bathed yourself when you were 11 and washed your own hair until you were 20, that's the way you operated within the confines of your family's home.  In my family and in the family of my friend, the way we operated was sometimes as described above.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #94 on: Sep 19th, 2011, 1:38am »
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on Sep 19th, 2011, 12:56am, MW wrote:

 
Dawg,
 
That's your opinion.  The legislatures rely on expert testimony and visceral instincts of their own.  All it takes is a Jacee Lee Dugard story to hit the front page of the papers, and whatever laws don't apply are soon made to apply.
 
Jacee Lee Dugard was 11 years old when she was kidnapped on June 10, 1991 in South Lake Tahoe.  She was held for 18 years and forced to bear two children to her kidnapper.  In the wake of that story, still think the abuse laws won't apply to 11-year olds?
 
And don't give me this about that's different just because it's a mother bathing her son.  The general public doesn't care.  The general public hears "11-year old" and it hears "abused" and that's all it takes.  That woman could be exposing herself to a permanent label: sex offender.
 
That mother would be dead meat if she got caught.
 
Additionally, you should know that certain specified persons, by law, are required to report to the authorities.  I'm speaking of health care providers, firemen, policemen, welfare officials...etc. the list goes on and on...on pain of criminal penalties of their own.  Big brother, if you know what I mean.  If that mother were observed bathing that 11-year old by some health care worker or teacher or, say, a city employee in the Clerk's office, they would be obligated to turn her in the next day.  Often, they are just friends of a friend who are invited to the party.  Bingo.

 
MW,
I never said that abuse laws don't apply to 11 year olds.  What I said was this particular 11 year old wasn't being abused.  Actually, I saw what was happening you might say "out of the corner of my eye" although I couldn't hear the conversation between the boy and his mother after he came up to her and while she was talking to the other woman.  I could tell that he wanted something but I didn't know what it was.  After a minute or so I did hear her say, "Alright, go ahead.  I'll be in there in a minute or two."  
Every indication was that he wanted her to bathe him.  And as I said before when I stuck my head in the bathroom to tell her about the phone call, the boy was smiling and talking with his mother and the other woman.  
I assure you, if there was any indication at all that he was being abused, I probably would have called the police.  No such indication existed.  Everything appeared to be fine.  This was simply an 11 year old boy who still wanted his mom to bathe him.  
Tell me something: would the offense be because the mother was bathing the son or because another woman and the mother saw the 11 year old boy naked or both?    
 
 
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #95 on: Sep 19th, 2011, 1:53am »
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on Sep 19th, 2011, 1:25am, HowlingDawg wrote:

 
somedude,
Actually, he was very intelligent and probably more than capable of bathing himself.  For some reason, he preferred to have his mom bathe him.  I have no idea why.  There didn't seem to be any harm done so who was I to question the way their family operates? I was merely a guest in their home and I didn't really know them all that well.  
Actually, come to think of it, when I was 17 years old I stayed overnight at a friend's house who was also 17 at that time.  We were watching television when his mother came into the room and told my friend that it was time for his bath.  He asked if he could finish watching the show and his mom allowed him 5 more minutes.  She came back about 5 minutes later but the show still wasn't over and she was not willing to wait any longer.  She threatened him with "the switch" so he got up and went to take his bath.  After the show ended, which was only a few minutes after he left the room, I went to find him to tell him how the show ended.  I found him in the bathroom.  He was standing up naked in the tub as his mother was soaping his body with a wash rag.  He turned and looked and me and then looked down at the floor.  I waited for him in his room.  He came in naked a little while later and told me that his mom likes giving him a bath and gets upset if he asks her not to do it.  Then he asked me to please not tell anyone else that we knew that his mom gives him a bath.  
I could tell he was embarrassed so I arranged for him to be over at my house when my step-sister/cousin would come into the bathroom when I was in the tub so that he could see her wash my hair which she did sometimes.  She also washed my older brother's hair sometimes simply because she liked doing it.  I thought that if he saw my step-sister/cousin wash my hair it would make him feel better because he would see that a female in my family washed my hair while I was naked in the tub similarly to the way his mom washed him while he was naked in the tub.  
I told my friend that he could come into the bathroom and talk with me while I took a bath.  I had previously told my step-sister/cousin that I wanted her to wash my hair (which she often did anyway) and the "special" reason I wanted her to do this.  
I was sitting in the tub talking to my friend when my brother walked past the door and waved at me.  He had gone out of town and wasn't expected back until the next day.  About 2 or 3 minutes later he came into the bathroom naked and started getting into the tub with me.  We often took baths together.  This started when we were both children (he was actually about 4 years older than me) and continued at my parents home until I was 20 and he was 23.  When I was in my late 20's and living away from home, he came to visit me and, he and I ended up int the tub together, smoking cigars and drinking brandy as we laughed about the "old times".    
After my brother got in the tub, my step-sister/cousin came in and not only washed my hair in front of my friend but also washed my brother's hair.  My plan for making everything "even" between my friend and I worked.  After that, he became much more "open" and relaxed around me since the time I had seen him being bathed by his mother.  
The reason I told you all of the above is to illustrate how very different families can be.  If you always bathed yourself when you were 11 and washed your own hair until you were 20, that's the way you operated within the confines of your family's home.  In my family and in the family of my friend, the way we operated was sometimes as described above.  

 
Um, dawg...dude?  That story is waaaay too kinky for public consumption.  I would keep it to myself, if I were you.
 
Perchance, did anyone pee in the bathtub?  That would complete the story.
 
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #96 on: Sep 19th, 2011, 2:10am »
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on Sep 19th, 2011, 1:38am, HowlingDawg wrote:

 
MW,
I never said that abuse laws don't apply to 11 year olds.  What I said was this particular 11 year old wasn't being abused.  Actually, I saw what was happening you might say "out of the corner of my eye" although I couldn't hear the conversation between the boy and his mother after he came up to her and while she was talking to the other woman.  I could tell that he wanted something but I didn't know what it was.  After a minute or so I did hear her say, "Alright, go ahead.  I'll be in there in a minute or two."  
Every indication was that he wanted her to bathe him.  And as I said before when I stuck my head in the bathroom to tell her about the phone call, the boy was smiling and talking with his mother and the other woman.  
I assure you, if there was any indication at all that he was being abused, I probably would have called the police.  No such indication existed.  Everything appeared to be fine.  This was simply an 11 year old boy who still wanted his mom to bathe him.  
Tell me something: would the offense be because the mother was bathing the son or because another woman and the mother saw the 11 year old boy naked or both?    

 
Um, I don't think you understand the nature of the law in this situation.  It's a status crime.  Because the boy is not of the age of majority, he is unable to consent to what is happening to him.  Therefore, ipso facto it's a breach of the law for all of those adults present.
 
As far as your other question, the mother is as guilty as her friends.  They are all adults...he is incompacitated as a result of his age...that is the nature of statutory rape, or any other law statutory in nature.
 
You are using your own definition of "abuse."  The law will tell you what it is, thank you very much.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #97 on: Sep 19th, 2011, 2:15am »
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on Sep 19th, 2011, 1:53am, MW wrote:

 
Um, dawg...dude?  That story is waaaay too kinky for public consumption.  I would keep it to myself, if I were you.
 
Perchance, did anyone pee in the bathtub?  That would complete the story.
 

 
 
MW,
You have the wrong impression.  It wasn't "kinky" at all.  It was all very innocent, really.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #98 on: Sep 19th, 2011, 2:50am »
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Americans are all silly people : they hijack the liberal notion of consent toward their hopelessely thick puritanism. Child protection means the trojan horse of their silly puritanism.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #99 on: Sep 19th, 2011, 6:25am »
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on Sep 18th, 2011, 8:50pm, somedude wrote:

 
 
And you believe that stripping someone of their dignity and humanity is an appropriate punishment?
 

 
I have already explained this in another post.
But in brief here is an answer to your question.
Every form of punishment is stripping someone of his dignity.
Prison is probably the biggest example of stripping someone of their dignity. They are locked up in a small cell most of the time,  they are stripped of their liberty, monitored 24 hours without any privacy whatsoever, even while shitting and showering. They have to degrade themselves by forcefully submitting to regular strip searches, and other rgrading treatment. Yes, even in front of female staff.
In other words all their civil rights are taken away.
And this is an acceptable punishment by most societies. Probably including also you.
 
Does that answer your question?
In fact I am surprised that you ask that question at all.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #100 on: Sep 19th, 2011, 6:57am »
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on Sep 18th, 2011, 9:48pm, MW wrote:

 
Bobby, you need to go back to school.
 
Yes, forcing your child to expose his genitals to the public, whether mothers, their friends or their daughters, is illegal today.  It's grouped with some laws that are called "child abuse."
 
I quote from the California Code, but states usually follow the California lead--
 
 
The list includes "physical pain, mental suffering or the endangerment of the child's person or health."  In all states, the law outlaws physical abuse, neglect, sexual abuse, sexual exploitation, emotional abuse, parental substance abuse, and abandonment.  The incidents you have described would fall into sexual abuse, sexual exploitation and emotional abuse.
 
Oh, have you heard that Mormons can no longer have plural marriages?  That happened in 1925.

 
Who said anything about forcing your child to expose his genitals to the public?
Like I told you before, you seem to lack any reading comprehension, or doing this on purpose to mix ssues.
 
Forcing someone to do something against their will is illegal in every case. EXCEPT when it is done by the state itself, and its apponted officers, in the name of law enforcement and other examples I have given above.
 
So what is right and wrong, and what is justified and what isn't, is a relative issue.
 
Also, as I have repeatedly said, every form of punishment is forcing someone to do something against his will. So we might as well do without any form of punishment, since according to you this is abuse.
 
If it were up to your liberal heroes we would also have to shut down all prisons, and let everyone from children to adults do as they will.
That would be an ideal liberal society where anarchy rules.
 
Hehe...you need to go back to school, MW. And learn some discipline and logic.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #101 on: Sep 19th, 2011, 7:17am »
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Not that I'm overstating the obvious here but BobbyBare - "please don't feed the trolls."
 
This guy seems intent on just getting a rise out of you and others under the pretense of "discussion." No matter what you say he will always argue the point. It's fruitless to try and reason. My advice - ignore him.  I suspect most of us get your points and enjoy your posts.  
 
 
 
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #102 on: Sep 19th, 2011, 7:19am »
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on Sep 18th, 2011, 10:58pm, MW wrote:

 
Hi Dawg,
 
Well, your friends who are allowing their kid (beyond, say, infant stage) to run around nude are skating on thin ice.  Please tell them for me that a zealous prosecutor could bring charges.  A jury might not convict them, but after $50,000 in legal fees the damage is already done.  
 
An eleven-year-old is going to reap a definate conviction.  Your friend, whoever she is, committed a felony that could not only earn her jail time, but a permanent place on the sex offenders list.
 
The clip on the Stanford Prison Study is well worth a second look.  I was at Berkeley when it was conducted.  What is Berkeley from Stanford?  Maybe 21-22 miles?  Berkeley is much more liberal than Stanford.  We were horrified.  I remember suggesting prosecutions.  I will tell you, those guys barely got out of the Bay area alive.  I still question the morality of those who conceived and conducted that study.  
 
Lombardo has still not earned my forgiveness.  Interesting that he has taken to popular media for his publication.  Can't get a job in academia?  Hmmm...

 
More confusion and crap.
There is a difference between "allowing" and "forcing".
 
There is no law against allowing a child to run naked around the house, if he so wishes. But forcing him to do so is another mattter.  Though again this law did not apply in the past, just like spanking.
So Dawg is right in that these things were lawful in the past, but not today. So you must take everything in perspective.
Again you don't seem to make any distinctions.
 
Also about this subject, most parents will certainly not allow a grown up boy to run naked around the house, especially when there are visitors, or girls in the family.. So is forcing him to put on clothes illegal, since it is forcing him to do something against his will?
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #103 on: Sep 19th, 2011, 10:52am »
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on Sep 19th, 2011, 7:19am, Bobby_Bare wrote:

 
More confusion and crap.
There is a difference between "allowing" and "forcing".
 
There is no law against allowing a child to run naked around the house, if he so wishes. But forcing him to do so is another mattter.  Though again this law did not apply in the past, just like spanking.
So Dawg is right in that these things were lawful in the past, but not today. So you must take everything in perspective.
Again you don't seem to make any distinctions.
 
Also about this subject, most parents will certainly not allow a grown up boy to run naked around the house, especially when there are visitors, or girls in the family.. So is forcing him to put on clothes illegal, since it is forcing him to do something against his will?

 
Bobby you need a sense of priorities.
 
Also, you argue every point without regard for how it fits into a total system.  That gives off the sense that you are making things up as you go along.
 
You need to think about, and integrate your ideas.  Also, stop attacking me, personally.  This is not about me.  Yet you have now made me your overriding concern.  Of course, I don't give a shit; you own that problem, not me.  But you cheapen yourself when you do this...and that goes for your ideas as well.  If you want to be an effective debator, keep your arguments in the abstract.  Don't personify them.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #104 on: Sep 19th, 2011, 1:13pm »
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on Sep 19th, 2011, 1:25am, HowlingDawg wrote:

 
somedude,
Actually, he was very intelligent and probably more than capable of bathing himself.  For some reason, he preferred to have his mom bathe him.  I have no idea why.  There didn't seem to be any harm done so who was I to question the way their family operates? I was merely a guest in their home and I didn't really know them all that well.  
Actually, come to think of it, when I was 17 years old I stayed overnight at a friend's house who was also 17 at that time.  We were watching television when his mother came into the room and told my friend that it was time for his bath.  He asked if he could finish watching the show and his mom allowed him 5 more minutes.  She came back about 5 minutes later but the show still wasn't over and she was not willing to wait any longer.  She threatened him with "the switch" so he got up and went to take his bath.  After the show ended, which was only a few minutes after he left the room, I went to find him to tell him how the show ended.  I found him in the bathroom.  He was standing up naked in the tub as his mother was soaping his body with a wash rag.  He turned and looked and me and then looked down at the floor.  I waited for him in his room.  He came in naked a little while later and told me that his mom likes giving him a bath and gets upset if he asks her not to do it.  Then he asked me to please not tell anyone else that we knew that his mom gives him a bath.  
I could tell he was embarrassed so I arranged for him to be over at my house when my step-sister/cousin would come into the bathroom when I was in the tub so that he could see her wash my hair which she did sometimes.  She also washed my older brother's hair sometimes simply because she liked doing it.  I thought that if he saw my step-sister/cousin wash my hair it would make him feel better because he would see that a female in my family washed my hair while I was naked in the tub similarly to the way his mom washed him while he was naked in the tub.  
I told my friend that he could come into the bathroom and talk with me while I took a bath.  I had previously told my step-sister/cousin that I wanted her to wash my hair (which she often did anyway) and the "special" reason I wanted her to do this.  
I was sitting in the tub talking to my friend when my brother walked past the door and waved at me.  He had gone out of town and wasn't expected back until the next day.  About 2 or 3 minutes later he came into the bathroom naked and started getting into the tub with me.  We often took baths together.  This started when we were both children (he was actually about 4 years older than me) and continued at my parents home until I was 20 and he was 23.  When I was in my late 20's and living away from home, he came to visit me and, he and I ended up int the tub together, smoking cigars and drinking brandy as we laughed about the "old times".    
After my brother got in the tub, my step-sister/cousin came in and not only washed my hair in front of my friend but also washed my brother's hair.  My plan for making everything "even" between my friend and I worked.  After that, he became much more "open" and relaxed around me since the time I had seen him being bathed by his mother.  
The reason I told you all of the above is to illustrate how very different families can be.  If you always bathed yourself when you were 11 and washed your own hair until you were 20, that's the way you operated within the confines of your family's home.  In my family and in the family of my friend, the way we operated was sometimes as described above.  

 
I enjoy your stories, but  I don't believe them.  They're good stories, and you're good at telling them,but they're made up.  So when I ask what was wrong with the kid that he can't bathe himself, that shouldn't be taken as my believing that the scenario you painted actually happened. I'm just arguing against your hypothetical situation. To address your other hypothetical situation of your 17 year old friend being bathed by his mother because  she wants to and "gets upset if he asks her not to do it".....that mother has deep psychological issues.Either she's can't except that he's no longer a child and wants to bathe him to satisfy some sick need to keep viewing him as a child, or she's using him to satisfy some incestuous fantasy.Either way, she needs help.
 
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #105 on: Sep 19th, 2011, 1:14pm »
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on Sep 19th, 2011, 6:25am, Bobby_Bare wrote:

 
I have already explained this in another post.
But in brief here is an answer to your question.
Every form of punishment is stripping someone of his dignity.
Prison is probably the biggest example of stripping someone of their dignity. They are locked up in a small cell most of the time,  they are stripped of their liberty, monitored 24 hours without any privacy whatsoever, even while shitting and showering. They have to degrade themselves by forcefully submitting to regular strip searches, and other rgrading treatment. Yes, even in front of female staff.
In other words all their civil rights are taken away.
And this is an acceptable punishment by most societies. Probably including also you.
 
Does that answer your question?
In fact I am surprised that you ask that question at all.

 
 
 
That's a false comparison.You're comparing  adult criminals to unruly kids.They're not the same thing. Most kids are unruly, it's the nature of being a kid.To expect kids to never misbehave,never talk back,never give you an attitude, never break your rules....it's unrealistic(unless your child is little lord Fauntleroy). Punishing children in the same manner as hardened criminals for behaving like the children they are is beyond unreasonable.  
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #106 on: Sep 19th, 2011, 1:24pm »
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on Sep 19th, 2011, 6:57am, Bobby_Bare wrote:

Who said anything about forcing your child to expose his genitals to the public?

 
That's the root of the argument going on here.Using forced nudity as punishment means exposing genitals,and doing this to a kid is abuse.
 
 
on Sep 19th, 2011, 6:57am, Bobby_Bare wrote:

 
Also, as I have repeatedly said, every form of punishment is forcing someone to do something against his will. So we might as well do without any form of punishment, since according to you this is abuse.

 
 
You seem  incapable of differentiating reasonable punishment and abuse.Here's an example: if your child talks back to you, do you take away his toys  or do you cut off his tongue?One is reasonable, the other is not.Can you guess which is which?
 
 
on Sep 19th, 2011, 6:57am, Bobby_Bare wrote:

If it were up to your liberal heroes we would also have to shut down all prisons, and let everyone from children to adults do as they will.
That would be an ideal liberal society where anarchy rules.
 
Hehe...you need to go back to school, MW. And learn some discipline and logic.

 
 
Liberal doesn't mean what you want it to mean.There's a huge difference between dangerous criminals and kids acting like kids. Criminals deserved to be punished. Children who do wrong should also be punished, but not in the way criminals are punished. Despite yuor protest, liberals believe in law and order,but the punishment should fit the crime.With kids the punishment should fit what they did. Dehuminizing a kid for misbehaving is never the appropriate response.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #107 on: Sep 19th, 2011, 3:01pm »
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on Sep 19th, 2011, 1:13pm, somedude wrote:

 
I enjoy your stories, but  I don't believe them.  They're good stories, and you're good at telling them,but they're made up.  So when I ask what was wrong with the kid that he can't bathe himself, that shouldn't be taken as my believing that the scenario you painted actually happened. I'm just arguing against your hypothetical situation. To address your other hypothetical situation of your 17 year old friend being bathed by his mother because  she wants to and "gets upset if he asks her not to do it".....that mother has deep psychological issues.Either she's can't except that he's no longer a child and wants to bathe him to satisfy some sick need to keep viewing him as a child, or she's using him to satisfy some incestuous fantasy.Either way, she needs help.
 

 
somedude,
The stories I've told are real.  I wish I had that strong of an imagination so as to be able to fabricate stories like the ones I've told so far on these forums.  About some of the stories I've told so far, I wish they were fabricated.  Unfortunately or fortunately (depending on the story and it's source), they are real if they are part of my personal experience.  Pertaining to the story my uncle told me about "Billy", as you probably know, I did not experience that situation myself.  I was relating the story my uncle told me and according to him the story he told me was real.  
I really wouldn't care to speculate why my friend's mother bathed him when he was 17.  Any or all of your theories could be correct.  
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #108 on: Sep 19th, 2011, 3:03pm »
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Somedude,
Maybe sometime I will try to "make up" a story just for the fun of attempting it.  I will label that one as fiction whenever I get around to writing it.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #109 on: Sep 19th, 2011, 3:19pm »
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MW,
Possibly OT: I don't know if this will hurt or help the discussion but here goes...
My currently 19 year old third cousin has been naked frequently in their home since he was a small child and I mean in front of the rest of their family including his sisters and sometimes his sister's female friends.  He is an athlete, particularly, a swimmer and he has also wrestled, played baseball and football and pole  vaulted.  Typical of a lot of athletes, he is not shy at all about his body.  Actually, to me, sometimes he seems like something of an exhibitionist.  Several months ago he told me there is a picture of him naked somewhere on the net that he posted.  He also said there is some chat room he has been to where he talks with girls who are his age and they ask to see his body and so he shows them and he added "...and I show them everything they want to see."  
He once told me he wishes he could swim naked the way I used to do years ago.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #110 on: Sep 19th, 2011, 11:21pm »
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on Sep 19th, 2011, 3:19pm, HowlingDawg wrote:
MW,
Possibly OT: I don't know if this will hurt or help the discussion but here goes...
My currently 19 year old third cousin has been naked frequently in their home since he was a small child and I mean in front of the rest of their family including his sisters and sometimes his sister's female friends.  He is an athlete, particularly, a swimmer and he has also wrestled, played baseball and football and pole  vaulted.  Typical of a lot of athletes, he is not shy at all about his body.  Actually, to me, sometimes he seems like something of an exhibitionist.  Several months ago he told me there is a picture of him naked somewhere on the net that he posted.  He also said there is some chat room he has been to where he talks with girls who are his age and they ask to see his body and so he shows them and he added "...and I show them everything they want to see."  
He once told me he wishes he could swim naked the way I used to do years ago.  

 
 
I'm going to call it.This thing about your 19 year old [third] cousin having a naked picture somewhere on the internet is a set up for an upcoming post of your where you show a picture you found on the internet and claim it's your cousin.Maybe you won't do it now that i said it, but i hope you do.Like i said,I may not believe your stories, but I do enjoy them.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #111 on: Sep 20th, 2011, 1:03am »
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on Sep 19th, 2011, 3:19pm, HowlingDawg wrote:
MW,
Possibly OT: I don't know if this will hurt or help the discussion but here goes...
My currently 19 year old third cousin has been naked frequently in their home since he was a small child and I mean in front of the rest of their family including his sisters and sometimes his sister's female friends.  He is an athlete, particularly, a swimmer and he has also wrestled, played baseball and football and pole  vaulted.  Typical of a lot of athletes, he is not shy at all about his body.  Actually, to me, sometimes he seems like something of an exhibitionist.  Several months ago he told me there is a picture of him naked somewhere on the net that he posted.  He also said there is some chat room he has been to where he talks with girls who are his age and they ask to see his body and so he shows them and he added "...and I show them everything they want to see."  
He once told me he wishes he could swim naked the way I used to do years ago.  

 
You know Dawg, I know that people are posting pics of themselves on the net, and there’s nothing we can do about that/.  While an underaged cannot give consent, what can you do about it if he does it to himself?
 
I also know that there a loads of mothers and older sisters that are exhibiting their sons and brothers, despite their being underaged.  I've tried to stress that there is a difference between something that is illegal, and someone being caught at it.  So how does a mother get caught exhibiting her 11-year old son?  I've tried to suggest one way (the chance visitor).  But I admit that the chances are slim and remote.
 
But just because I say that does not change the law.  For example, how many female teachers have been screwing their 13-year old students?  Probably it has been going on for a long time, but only recently have we caught a half-dozen or so.  But they have been enough to show you that, yes, it is against the law and they can be prosecuted.
 
You’ve got to distinguish between what the law says and what is improbable.  But I will say this: they’re getting caught more and more.  Look at these shows where the moderator catches sexual predators coming over to a house in hopes of snagging an underaged minor.  Instead, they find the moderator and the police waiting for them.  There are a lot of tricks like this out there.  (I tried the first abscam case west of the Mississippi, and I was amazed what they could do.)  I wouldn’t be at all surprised if your mother of that 11-year old calls you one night and begs you to go her bail.  It’s that chancy.
 
There are a lot of situations where you hear, ‘I didn’t even know it was illegal.’  And what do you say in response?  Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #112 on: Sep 20th, 2011, 2:30am »
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on Sep 19th, 2011, 11:21pm, somedude wrote:

 
 
I'm going to call it.This thing about your 19 year old [third] cousin having a naked picture somewhere on the internet is a set up for an upcoming post of your where you show a picture you found on the internet and claim it's your cousin.Maybe you won't do it now that i said it, but i hope you do.Like i said,I may not believe your stories, but I do enjoy them.

 
somedude,
OT: I must say you have very interesting and unique way of thinking.  Actually, even if I wasn't a member of this forum, I doubt seriously I would even bother to look for the picture of my third cousin.  If I wanted to see the picture, I'd ask him to send me a link but truly there would really be no point or interest for me.  
Just because there were a few pictures that I said were my family, you think everything I say is  a "set up" for showing more pictures supposedly of members of my family.  
You will notice that I have not claimed any knowledge of any other pictures on this website.  
A friend of mine read my post about my uncle's story about "Billy" and he asked me to describe my uncle.  I don't know why he wanted to know this but that is, indeed, what he wanted to know.  It's funny that he asked his strange question  and then the following day you make your strange comment about your thinking that I was writing a "set up" for displaying a picture of someone on the internet and then claiming that picture is my third cousin.  
Just so you won't think I'm attempting another "set up" to eventually show a picture of someone and then claiming it's my uncle, I'll just tell you that it is fairly easy to describe my uncle's appearance to people.  What I mean is it's easy to have people imagine what he looks like because he bears a strong resemblance to a famous entertainer (actually, famous if a person is old enough to remember this entertainer).  My uncle looks a lot like the late, French entertainer, Maurice Chevalier.  
 
The odd coincidence about this is my uncle's late wife's name was "Louise" which was also the name of one of the songs Maurice Chevalier made famous.  I remember years ago when I was a teenager someone telling my uncle he looks like Maurice Chavalier and he turned to his wife and started singing the song "Louise" while doing a really funny impression of Maurice Chavalier.  His impression made all of us laugh.  My uncle sometimes can be very funny.  
 
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #113 on: Sep 20th, 2011, 2:51am »
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on Sep 20th, 2011, 1:03am, MW wrote:

 
You know Dawg, I know that people are posting pics of themselves on the net, and there’s nothing we can do about that/.  While an underaged cannot give consent, what can you do about it if he does it to himself?
 
I also know that there a loads of mothers and older sisters that are exhibiting their sons and brothers, despite their being underaged.  I've tried to stress that there is a difference between something that is illegal, and someone being caught at it.  So how does a mother get caught exhibiting her 11-year old son?  I've tried to suggest one way (the chance visitor).  But I admit that the chances are slim and remote.
 
But just because I say that does not change the law.  For example, how many female teachers have been screwing their 13-year old students?  Probably it has been going on for a long time, but only recently have we caught a half-dozen or so.  But they have been enough to show you that, yes, it is against the law and they can be prosecuted.
 
You’ve got to distinguish between what the law says and what is improbable.  But I will say this: they’re getting caught more and more.  Look at these shows where the moderator catches sexual predators coming over to a house in hopes of snagging an underaged minor.  Instead, they find the moderator and the police waiting for them.  There are a lot of tricks like this out there.  (I tried the first abscam case west of the Mississippi, and I was amazed what they could do.)  I wouldn’t be at all surprised if your mother of that 11-year old calls you one night and begs you to go her bail.  It’s that chancy.
 
There are a lot of situations where you hear, ‘I didn’t even know it was illegal.’  And what do you say in response?  Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

 
 
MW,
OT: If you were talking about my third cousin being underaged, he isn't.  He's 19 years of age.  
I don't believe the mother of the 11 year old boy was deliberately exhibiting her son for the purpose of being illicit.  I seriously doubt she even thought about that.
Really?  There have been a half dozen teachers "screwing" 13 year olds?  Is that real?  I had no idea.  Is this male teachers with female students or female teachers with male students?  That's really very strange.  I doubt this has been going on for a long time.  If this isn't an urban legend story and has really happened, I would guess that one of the causes is accessibility to pornography via the internet.  There's no doubt pornography affects young minds and not in a good way.    
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #114 on: Sep 20th, 2011, 3:44am »
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"Dawg" :
 
It seems to me that many of those who adress messages in this discussion are telling that the mother was doing an illegal fact when she was bathing her son of 13 age, and I think that they are wrong.
 
There is nothing illegal, it is a question of education and feelings of the boy : if he is not embarrassed and likes that his mother bathes him even  at his age, why not?  
It is a truth that it is easier for a third person to wash the hair of a boy or a girl and in that case the mother is the best person to wash the hairs of her son.
 
There is nothing scandalous if the mother is not forcing the boy to be nude in front of her,  he can be sitting  in the bathtub and not completely visible in the nude from head to toes.  
 
In France too, sometimes I read or I heard that mothers are washing the hairs of their sons or their daughters even after puberty when teenagers.  
 
It is not something uncommon but I recognize that it is different to bath really a pre- or a teenage boy  under a tub and to wash his hairs when he is sitting in a bathtub.    
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #115 on: Sep 20th, 2011, 4:36am »
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on Sep 20th, 2011, 3:44am, easter_man_10 wrote:
"Dawg" :
 
It seems to me that many of those who adress messages in this discussion are telling that the mother was doing an illegal fact when she was bathing her son of 13 age, and I think that they are wrong.
 
There is nothing illegal, it is a question of education and feelings of the boy : if he is not embarrassed and likes that his mother bathes him even  at his age, why not?  
It is a truth that it is easier for a third person to wash the hair of a boy or a girl and in that case the mother is the best person to wash the hairs of her son.
 
There is nothing scandalous if the mother is not forcing the boy to be nude in front of her,  he can be sitting  in the bathtub and not completely visible in the nude from head to toes.  
 
In France too, sometimes I read or I heard that mothers are washing the hairs of their sons or their daughters even after puberty when teenagers.  
 
It is not something uncommon but I recognize that it is different to bath really a pre- or a teenage boy  under a tub and to wash his hairs when he is sitting in a bathtub.    

 
Easter man,
Actually, in the situations I wrote about one of the males was 11 years of age and in another completely different situation the male was 17 years of age.  None the less, your point is well understood.  
The laws have gone too far if this type of innocence is thought of as something illegal or illicit.  I am absolutely positive there was nothing sinister in my step-sister/cousin's thoughts and actions when she used to wash my and my brothers's hairs.  Either in the tub or elsewhere she saw us naked and she never exhibited any improper behavior or made any lewd comments  about us and our nudity.  Please understand, she is our "big sister".  She took care of us when were younger, especially me and my step-brother/cousin (her biological brother).  She was about 4 to 5 years older than my older brother who is approximately 4 years older than me.  
 
OT:  Incidentally, Easter Man, I assume because you are from France, you are familiar with the entertainer, Maurice Chevalier, about whom I wrote in one of my prior posts about my uncle bearing a resemblance to him.   Because he was famous so many years ago, I am curious to know if you are familiar with him.  You may be too young to remember him.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #116 on: Sep 20th, 2011, 2:35pm »
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'Dawg" :
 
yes I know the french singer and actor "Maurice Chevalier" but I am too young to be interested by his songs and to speak frankly, I don't like them and I don't think that he was a great singer, he had not a nice voice, nothing to compare to a singer like Frank Sinatra.
 
I presume that my parents knew him better than me but surprisingly, he was perhaps more appreciated in your country than in mine.  
 
Today, none french radio or TV is intested by his songs, we never heard them.
 
It is a man of a far past and I am not a young man.  
 
I am sure that many young men do not know who he is!
 
As regards your account, as I have said, it is different for me if a teenager is bathed by his mother in a tub where he is standing naked or if he is sitting in a bathtub and his mother comes in the bathroom only to wash his hairs.
 
In the second case, I think that it is a very common situation, for the first one even if it is not illegal or illicit as long as it is not a forced situation, I am less convinced that it is appropriate with a male teenager but it is up to the families to decide and especially to the boys to ask at their mothers  to help them in bathing at home if they want, why not after all if there is nothing sexual in that situation as it seems to be in your account.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #117 on: Sep 20th, 2011, 3:52pm »
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on Sep 20th, 2011, 3:44am, easter_man_10 wrote:
"Dawg" :
 
It seems to me that many of those who adress messages in this discussion are telling that the mother was doing an illegal fact when she was bathing her son of 13 age, and I think that they are wrong.
 
There is nothing illegal, it is a question of education and feelings of the boy : if he is not embarrassed and likes that his mother bathes him even  at his age, why not?  
It is a truth that it is easier for a third person to wash the hair of a boy or a girl and in that case the mother is the best person to wash the hairs of her son.
 
There is nothing scandalous if the mother is not forcing the boy to be nude in front of her,  he can be sitting  in the bathtub and not completely visible in the nude from head to toes.  

 
Easter man, not being a lawyer I would not expect that you know what is going on in the world.  I've had clients like that.  They are shocked and overwhelmed when they are arrested for something they think is completely innocent.
 
Let me try to explain it: You are horsing around on the Internet and someone sends you a picture of a nude male, not doing anything but standing there.  Maybe there's a funny caption that made you laugh.  You download it and save it.  Ha-ha, that Nicky's a funny guy.  Are you with me so far?
 
Now your computer has been running so slow, bogged down with   cookies,viruses...whatever.  Then you see an ad from Staples, Best Buy or Office Depo:  
 
"Every day, in-store, overnight..
 
FREE
 
PC tune up!  Easytech.

 
You take your computer in and leave it overnight.  Do you know what happens?  That's right.  They check out the content of the data stored.  They have regular contacts with vice squad members of the local and higher authorities.  (Did you think in this day and age of kiddie porn and terrorism they wouldn't?)
 
They find your pic of the nude boy and check it against known pics of minors and, lo, it's a 15-year old boy.  You have illegal porn in your computer.  A cop from the vice squad knocks on your door.  Next, you're on the phone calling someone like me and he's quoting you $20,000 before trial.
 
Now, lets play with variations.  You are a female  visitor in a friend's home.  She has an 11-year old son.  She leaves to give him a bath and she invites you into the bathroom.  But she's also simultaneously having a party.  Or she has houseguests.  Very weird.  She has invited you in to watch, with a couple more mature friends.  No one knows, but one is a vice officer with the police department.
 
Let me stop right there.  What the fook do you think you guys are doing?  How are you going to explain this to a bunch of starched and shaven jurists a month later?  Cause I can tell you exactly what a prosecutor is going to tell a jury what you are doing.  But let me tell you what you will hear:
 
Q.  "Officer you are with the vice squad of Tinkerville PD?"
 
A.  "Right."
 
Q.  "And what did you witness?"
 
A.  "Well, it's what we vice officers commonly know as a CFNM party.  Now CFNM is an aronym for a kind of sex show in which women are titilated with views of real naked men.  They are allowed to touch, play with parts and actually masturbate the males.  Only this was with an 11-year old child."
 
STOP
 
Titilating?  Sex show?  Touch, play and masturbate.  Such words from a cold, detatched, judging police officer.
 
Let me show you how the game is played.   You are not going to be able to testify because you will assert your fifth amendment rights not to bear witness against yourself.   Ah, but your son was totally willing.  He will tell the jury that it was all so innoocent.
 
Q.  "Are the males 'willing' participants in this...this CFNM sex show?"
 
A.  "Well, yes...but a minor cannot give consent by law.  Children are what we call: Incompacitated from consenting.     So it doesn't matter.
 
STOP
 
So the boy won't be able to testify, right?
 
Q.  "Objection, irrelevant, your Honor.  The boy is legally incapable of giving consent."
 
A.  "Sustained.  The question will be stricken and the jury is instructed to ignore it."
 
STOP
 
More likely, your lawyer knows this will happen and he won't put the boy on at all.  Besides, do you really want an 11-year old to be subjected to a vice related trial?
 
End of.........
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #118 on: Sep 20th, 2011, 4:30pm »
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Ha, I've run out of editing time.  So I'll state this on another post.
 
Now, I think CFNM is great...totally legal and all.  But the law is in a frenzie about pedophelia and things with minors these days.
 
Everything I've put in the script above goes on everyday.  UNFAIR! you call.  But, how do you think cops and prosecutors catch bad guys?  Do you think they politely ask bad guys if they would mind spending the next 18-years in prison?
 
Now that's why you spend all that money for a defense attorney.  But you can do some really stupid things that tie your lawyer's hands.  One is to look like, walk like and talk like a duck.  Or, in other words, create the appearance you are committing a crime.  Especially with an explosive issue like children and sex.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #119 on: Sep 20th, 2011, 6:06pm »
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"MW" : I am sorry but I have never said that a mother can invite a friend in the bathroom when her son is bathing  
 
it is one thing to bath the hairs of her son and  to let one  other person see her son while bathing.
 
anyway, I am not a lawyer and I am not an american, so it is difficult for me to express an opinion with shades of meaning , so may be you are right.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #120 on: Sep 20th, 2011, 6:35pm »
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on Sep 20th, 2011, 4:30pm, MW wrote:
Ha, I've run out of editing time.  So I'll state this on another post.
 
Now, I think CFNM is great...totally legal and all.  But the law is in a frenzie about pedophelia and things with minors these days.
 
Everything I've put in the script above goes on everyday.  UNFAIR! you call.  But, how do you think cops and prosecutors catch bad guys?  Do you think they politely ask bad guys if they would mind spending the next 18-years in prison?
 
Now that's why you spend all that money for a defense attorney.  But you can do some really stupid things that tie your lawyer's hands.  One is to look like, walk like and talk like a duck.  Or, in other words, create the appearance you are committing a crime.  Especially with an explosive issue like children and sex.

 
MW,
Thank you for the information.  First off, this was most definitely not a CFNM party.  Actually, I never heard of CFNM until a few months ago when I read about it on another website.  I did not know that such a fetish even existed.  I feel that I still do not fully have the appreciation for or the full understanding of it that some people have.  Perhaps this is because I was raised in a house where male nudity was common and none of us ever thought anything about it.  My parents were of French and German decent one or two generations back depending on which parent.  Male nudity was very common at different relatives homes (especially grandparents and great grandparents).  The Germans and French from years ago were very "open" about male nudity.  Even now, they are more liberal about male nudity than Americans are.  
This was a simple matter that the 11 year old boy wanted his mom to bathe him.  She was carrying on a conversation with a woman who it seems was a close friend (This is actually conjecture on my part but that is the way the situation appeared to me.)  As I wrote in a prior post, I couldn't actually hear what the boy wanted but he was standing by his mother as she was carrying on the conversation with the other woman and every few minutes he would interrupt and say something that I couldn't hear appearing as though he wanted something.  Then the woman said to him something like 'Go ahead, I'll be in there in a minute..." which was loud enough for me to hear.  
A little while later, someone called on the phone for the woman.  I was standing beside the phone when it rang and the man who owns the house asked me if  I would mind answering it which I did.  I took a message and then looked for the woman.  I didn't find her so I asked a couple of people where she was and one of them suggested I try upstairs.  I went upstairs and heard women's voices talking from inside one of the rooms.  I walked toward the door which was open and saw a woman sitting on a bench about 5 feet from the bathtub.  The boy was sitting in the tub and his mother was sitting on the side of the tub washing the back of the boy's neck with a wash rag.  The boy was smiling and started to say something when I appeared at the door.  The boy pointed at me as if to indicate to his mother that I was there.  I told his mother about the message.  She thanked me and then I went back downstairs.  Prior to going upstairs, I didn't know the boy was being given a bath.    
I would have never interpreted the scene I saw as being any type of "sexual interest" or fetish situation.  Perhaps this is because my step-sister/female cousin used to wash my hair, my brother's hair and my step-brother/cousin's hair fairly often and nothing sexual ever happened.  
I would agree that this would be a strange situation if there were several other party guests in the room (this wasn't a large group of people there) observing the boy being bathed but that wasn't the case at all.  Whoever this other woman was, I had the impression that she was a close friend because of the way they interacted with each other.  She may have been a relative.  
Also, judging from the very short time that I was looking at this situation, there was no reason for me to believe that the boy was resistant to either one of the women being there.  He was smiling and appeared to be in a good mood.  
If either one of these women was breaking the law (especially the boy's own mother) I believe that is a law that should be modified or perhaps abolished.  
By coincidence, recently I was watching an episode of a Television show from the 1950's and 1960's titled "The Untouchables".  In that episode there is a scene showing a young teenage boy who has been abducted by some gangsters.  Then, the boy is returned.  After the boy was returned, his mother tells the boy to go take off his clothes and she will give him a bath.  The boy's disposition seems happy about his mother giving him a bath.  
This type of thing was much more common years ago when our society was more innocent and less negatively influenced by pornography.  It has become so now that on late night talk shows someone on the show can't say the word "coming" as in a sentence like "I'll be coming later tonight." without the audience making sounds like they think the person meant ejaculation.  Then the person who said "I'll be coming later tonight." has to explain that he meant he would be going somewhere and his comment had nothing to do with ejaculation or indicate his actual intention in some other way such as by a certain disgusted look.  
We've become an overly sexualized society.  It used to be that if a man or a boy took off his shirt, people thought of his appearance in the same way as if he had his shirt on unless his removing his shirt would have been inappropriate for the situation such as at a dinner party or in church or some such event.  Now, if a man takes off his shirt on a Television show, their ratings go up unless the guy is really fat or has an ugly body.  Another example I saw recently was there was a woman and a man driving the car in front of me.  We were passing by a couple of young guys mowing a lawn.  One of the guys had his shirt off and the people in the car in front of me started honking and waving at him and saying "You're cute" and "Hunky" at him.  Both the woman and the man were doing this.  My brother and I used to wash our dad's car sometimes in our speedos in full view of the neighbors who would sometimes be in their front yards or come over and talk with us.  My brother and I would end up sometimes in a "water fight" when one of us would be squirting the other one with the hose.  One time we ended up wrestling and rolled over into a patch of mud.  It was a mess but it was fun.  I can't imagine how some people would react if we did that today.   There's a continuation story of the time my brother and I ended up in a patch of mud that actually became a CFNM situation that the readers of this forum might enjoy.  I'll save that story for another post.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #121 on: Sep 20th, 2011, 6:51pm »
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on Sep 20th, 2011, 2:35pm, easter_man_10 wrote:
'Dawg" :
 
yes I know the french singer and actor "Maurice Chevalier" but I am too young to be interested by his songs and to speak frankly, I don't like them and I don't think that he was a great singer, he had not a nice voice, nothing to compare to a singer like Frank Sinatra.
 
I presume that my parents knew him better than me but surprisingly, he was perhaps more appreciated in your country than in mine.  
 
Today, none french radio or TV is intested by his songs, we never heard them.
 
It is a man of a far past and I am not a young man.  
 
I am sure that many young men do not know who he is!
 
As regards your account, as I have said, it is different for me if a teenager is bathed by his mother in a tub where he is standing naked or if he is sitting in a bathtub and his mother comes in the bathroom only to wash his hairs.
 
In the second case, I think that it is a very common situation, for the first one even if it is not illegal or illicit as long as it is not a forced situation, I am less convinced that it is appropriate with a male teenager but it is up to the families to decide and especially to the boys to ask at their mothers  to help them in bathing at home if they want, why not after all if there is nothing sexual in that situation as it seems to be in your account.  

 
Easter Man,
This is completely OT and being written only for the purpose of enlightening Easter Man about one of his own countrymen:  
One of my grandfather's was a great admirer of Maurice Chevalier.  That is how I found out about him and then I noticed as I grew up that he appeared on different American TV shows.  According to my understanding, although Maurice Chevalier sang, he was thought of more as an entertainer, one who sang funny songs and joked around with the audience rather than as a singer of the ranks of someone like Frank Sinatra.  In their times, they weren't thought of by the public in the same way.  Maurice Chevalier was, to my understanding, thought of more as a jovial, comedic character who sang and was very much appreciated by audience because of his particular entertaining style.  Whereas, Frank Sinatra was thought of as a disciplined and highly respected singer who was also highly appreciated by many people.  My understanding was that Maurice Chevalier was a well known celebrity in your country and then was brought over to the United States to appear in a movie because of his popularity in France.  This was in the early 1930's so it was before our times.  
 
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #122 on: Sep 20th, 2011, 9:00pm »
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on Sep 20th, 2011, 6:35pm, HowlingDawg wrote:

 
MW,
Thank you for the information.  First off, this was most definitely not a CFNM party.  Actually, I never heard of CFNM until a few months ago when I read about it on another website.  I did not know that such a fetish even existed.  I feel that I still do not fully have the appreciation for or the full understanding of it that some people have.  Perhaps this is because I was raised in a house where male nudity was common and none of us ever thought anything about it.  My parents were of French and German decent one or two generations back depending on which parent.  Male nudity was very common at different relatives homes (especially grandparents and great grandparents).  The Germans and French from years ago were very "open" about male nudity.  Even now, they are more liberal about male nudity than Americans are.
  
This was a simple matter that the 11 year old boy wanted his mom to bathe him.  She was carrying on a conversation with a woman who it seems was a close friend (This is actually conjecture on my part but that is the way the situation appeared to me.)  As I wrote in a prior post, I couldn't actually hear what the boy wanted but he was standing by his mother as she was carrying on the conversation with the other woman and every few minutes he would interrupt and say something that I couldn't hear appearing as though he wanted something.  Then the woman said to him something like 'Go ahead, I'll be in there in a minute..." which was loud enough for me to hear.  
 
A little while later, someone called on the phone for the woman.  I was standing beside the phone when it rang and the man who owns the house asked me if  I would mind answering it which I did.  I took a message and then looked for the woman.  I didn't find her so I asked a couple of people where she was and one of them suggested I try upstairs.  I went upstairs and heard women's voices talking from inside one of the rooms.  I walked toward the door which was open and saw a woman sitting on a bench about 5 feet from the bathtub.  The boy was sitting in the tub and his mother was sitting on the side of the tub washing the back of the boy's neck with a wash rag.  The boy was smiling and started to say something when I appeared at the door.  The boy pointed at me as if to indicate to his mother that I was there.  I told his mother about the message.  She thanked me and then I went back downstairs.  Prior to going upstairs, I didn't know the boy was being given a bath.    
 
I would have never interpreted the scene I saw as being any type of "sexual interest" or fetish situation.  Perhaps this is because my step-sister/female cousin used to wash my hair, my brother's hair and my step-brother/cousin's hair fairly often and nothing sexual ever happened.  
I would agree that this would be a strange situation if there were several other party guests in the room (this wasn't a large group of people there) observing the boy being bathed but that wasn't the case at all.  Whoever this other woman was, I had the impression that she was a close friend because of the way they interacted with each other.  She may have been a relative.  
Also, judging from the very short time that I was looking at this situation, there was no reason for me to believe that the boy was resistant to either one of the women being there.  He was smiling and appeared to be in a good mood.  

 
Hi Dawg,
Not a CFNM party?  No sexual interest?  Not a fetish?  The boy was not resistant?  How are you going to get this obvious "opinion" testimony into evidence?  These are jury questions.  You can't substitute your opinion for the jury's opinion in an Anglo/American Court of Law.
 
Quote:
If either one of these women was breaking the law (especially the boy's own mother) I believe that is a law that should be modified or perhaps abolished.

 
My boy, with the opinion of the public so far against pedophilia and sexual abuse against children, that's a real uphill battle.
 
Quote:
By coincidence, recently I was watching an episode of a Television show from the 1950's and 1960's titled "The Untouchables".  In that episode there is a scene showing a young teenage boy who has been abducted by some gangsters.  Then, the boy is returned.  After the boy was returned, his mother tells the boy to go take off his clothes and she will give him a bath.  The boy's disposition seems happy about his mother giving him a bath.  
This type of thing was much more common years ago when our society was more innocent and less negatively influenced by pornography.  It has become so now that on late night talk shows someone on the show can't say the word "coming" as in a sentence like "I'll be coming later tonight." without the audience making sounds like they think the person meant ejaculation.  Then the person who said "I'll be coming later tonight." has to explain that he meant he would be going somewhere and his comment had nothing to do with ejaculation or indicate his actual intention in some other way such as by a certain disgusted look.
 
We've become an overly sexualized society.  It used to be that if a man or a boy took off his shirt, people thought of his appearance in the same way as if he had his shirt on unless his removing his shirt would have been inappropriate for the situation such as at a dinner party or in church or some such event.  Now, if a man takes off his shirt on a Television show, their ratings go up unless the guy is really fat or has an ugly body.  Another example I saw recently was there was a woman and a man driving the car in front of me.  We were passing by a couple of young guys mowing a lawn.  One of the guys had his shirt off and the people in the car in front of me started honking and waving at him and saying "You're cute" and "Hunky" at him.  Both the woman and the man were doing this.  My brother and I used to wash our dad's car sometimes in our speedos in full view of the neighbors who would sometimes be in their front yards or come over and talk with us.  My brother and I would end up sometimes in a "water fight" when one of us would be squirting the other one with the hose.  One time we ended up wrestling and rolled over into a patch of mud.  It was a mess but it was fun.  I can't imagine how some people would react if we did that today.   There's a continuation story of the time my brother and I ended up in a patch of mud that actually became a CFNM situation that the readers of this forum might enjoy.  I'll save that story for another post.  

 
I couldn't agree more.  What that means is that more prosecutions are being brought and more people are in danger of inadvertant stumbling...and accusation.
 
And that's just the chance misinterpretation.  When someone says, 'I intended to humiliate the boy with his nudity and I intended that the clothed girls be able to stare at him and humiliate him too', what's the jury going to say?  What am I going to say?  What are you going to say?
 
I mean, it's like if some rapist said: "I didn't mean anything sexual.  I just needed a piece of ass...a normal, biological function.  Sexual assault?  I'm innocent."  What is sexual and what is not is up to a jury to determine.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #123 on: Sep 21st, 2011, 3:48am »
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"Dawg"  
 
I am not sure that you have well understood what I have written or it is me who does not understand what you write.
 
Today, "Maurice Chevalier " is quite completely forgotten in France, even for his supposed talent of entertainer and his jokes but of course when he had success in your country, it was because he was well known and sucessfull in France.
 
"Easter Man,
This is completely OT and being written only for the purpose of enlightening Easter Man about one of his own countrymen  
One of my grandfather's was a great admirer of Maurice Chevalier.  That is how I found out about him and then I noticed as I grew up that he appeared on different American TV shows.  According to my understanding, although Maurice Chevalier sang, he was thought of more as an entertainer, one who sang funny songs and joked around with the audience rather than as a singer of the ranks of someone like Frank Sinatra.  In their times, they weren't thought of by the public in the same way.  Maurice Chevalier was, to my understanding, thought of more as a jovial, comedic character who sang and was very much appreciated by audience because of his particular entertaining style.  Whereas, Frank Sinatra was thought of as a disciplined and highly respected singer who was also highly appreciated by many people.  My understanding was that Maurice Chevalier was a well known celebrity in your country and then was brought over to the United States to appear in a movie because of his popularity in France.  This was in the early 1930's so it was before our times".  
 
of course, the comparison with the great singer frank Sinatra was not a good one because their talents were too much different and they did not have the same "job"
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #124 on: Sep 21st, 2011, 4:14am »
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on Sep 21st, 2011, 3:48am, easter_man_10 wrote:
"Dawg"  
 
I am not sure that you have well understood what I have written or it is me who does not understand what you write.
 
Today, "Maurice Chevalier " is quite completely forgotten in France, even for his supposed talent of entertainer and his jokes but of course when he had success in your country, it was because he was well known and sucessfull in France.
 
of course, the comparison with the great singer frank Sinatra was not a good one because their talents were too much different and they did not have the same "job"  

 
OT: Yes, I would expect that Maurice Chevalier is no longer popular in France but rather he is now considered to be a historic figure in entertainment.  He died several years ago.  
My reference to him was mainly because he resembled my uncle, the one that told the story about "Billy" to me which I then wrote on this thread.  I thought you might specifically like to know about who I was writing about (Maurice Chevalier) because he is a fellow country man of yours.  I didn't know if you knew who he was or not because I don't know your age.  
He is no longer popular here in the United States either except perhaps historically.  
Viva La France!
 
P.S. I sent a private message to you.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #125 on: Sep 21st, 2011, 5:18am »
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on Sep 20th, 2011, 3:52pm, MW wrote:

 
Easter man, not being a lawyer I would not expect that you know what is going on in the world.  I've had clients like that.  They are shocked and overwhelmed when they are arrested for something they think is completely innocent.
 
Let me try to explain it: You are horsing around on the Internet and someone sends you a picture of a nude male, not doing anything but standing there.  Maybe there's a funny caption that made you laugh.  You download it and save it.  Ha-ha, that Nicky's a funny guy.  Are you with me so far?
 
Now your computer has been running so slow, bogged down with   cookies,viruses...whatever.  Then you see an ad from Staples, Best Buy or Office Depo:  
 
"Every day, in-store, overnight..
 
FREE
 
PC tune up!  Easytech.

 
You take your computer in and leave it overnight.  Do you know what happens?  That's right.  They check out the content of the data stored.  They have regular contacts with vice squad members of the local and higher authorities.  (Did you think in this day and age of kiddie porn and terrorism they wouldn't?)
 
They find your pic of the nude boy and check it against known pics of minors and, lo, it's a 15-year old boy.  You have illegal porn in your computer.  A cop from the vice squad knocks on your door.  Next, you're on the phone calling someone like me and he's quoting you $20,000 before trial.
 
Now, lets play with variations.  You are a female  visitor in a friend's home.  She has an 11-year old son.  She leaves to give him a bath and she invites you into the bathroom.  But she's also simultaneously having a party.  Or she has houseguests.  Very weird.  She has invited you in to watch, with a couple more mature friends.  No one knows, but one is a vice officer with the police department.
 
Let me stop right there.  What the fook do you think you guys are doing?  How are you going to explain this to a bunch of starched and shaven jurists a month later?  Cause I can tell you exactly what a prosecutor is going to tell a jury what you are doing.  But let me tell you what you will hear:
 
Q.  "Officer you are with the vice squad of Tinkerville PD?"
 
A.  "Right."
 
Q.  "And what did you witness?"
 
A.  "Well, it's what we vice officers commonly know as a CFNM party.  Now CFNM is an aronym for a kind of sex show in which women are titilated with views of real naked men.  They are allowed to touch, play with parts and actually masturbate the males.  Only this was with an 11-year old child."
 
STOP
 
Titilating?  Sex show?  Touch, play and masturbate.  Such words from a cold, detatched, judging police officer.
 
Let me show you how the game is played.   You are not going to be able to testify because you will assert your fifth amendment rights not to bear witness against yourself.   Ah, but your son was totally willing.  He will tell the jury that it was all so innoocent.
 
Q.  "Are the males 'willing' participants in this...this CFNM sex show?"
 
A.  "Well, yes...but a minor cannot give consent by law.  Children are what we call: Incompacitated from consenting.     So it doesn't matter.
 
STOP
 
So the boy won't be able to testify, right?
 
Q.  "Objection, irrelevant, your Honor.  The boy is legally incapable of giving consent."
 
A.  "Sustained.  The question will be stricken and the jury is instructed to ignore it."
 
STOP
 
More likely, your lawyer knows this will happen and he won't put the boy on at all.  Besides, do you really want an 11-year old to be subjected to a vice related trial?
 
End of.........

 
 
MW, you keep bringing up irrelevant examples and comparisons.
A mother helping to bathe her son, as Easterman is saying, is quite different than the example you give of the mother inviting her friends to come and watch her teen son bathing.
One is perfectly legal, and nothing wrong with it, while the other can be considered as abuse.
 
In fact it is the mother's, or parent's, or guardian's responsability to see that the boy is washing proper and is kept clean.
So it is the opposite of what you say, if the boy is reported by someone as unkempt or dirty the parents would be accused of negligence, which is considered as a serious abuse by the law.
 
So much so, to give you an example, boys in institutions like boarding schools and others are regularly inspected, usually naked, for personal cleanliness, usually by female staff.
This is because the boys are under the responsability of that institution, and their personal hygiene is their duty and responsability while under their care.
 
Also it is a fact that teenage boys in correctional institutions are usually monitored while showering by the staff, including females.
So does this constitute as abuse, because it is allowed by the state.
 
As I said in a previous post, a mother is not allowed to see her own son nude for valid reasons, while the state allows this with strangers in its institutions. Don't you think that this is a serious double standard,nomatter what the law says?
 
I could give other examples, as also about the sending of nude pictures which you mention, but in another post.
Just one word about this. There is a difference between nude pictures and pornographc pictures. That is why I ask you to make distinctions in the examples you mention.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #126 on: Sep 21st, 2011, 5:31am »
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on Sep 19th, 2011, 1:14pm, somedude wrote:

 
 
 
That's a false comparison.You're comparing  adult criminals to unruly kids.They're not the same thing. Most kids are unruly, it's the nature of being a kid.To expect kids to never misbehave,never talk back,never give you an attitude, never break your rules....it's unrealistic(unless your child is little lord Fauntleroy). Punishing children in the same manner as hardened criminals for behaving like the children they are is beyond unreasonable.  

 
SomeDude, it is not a false comparison, because boys and teenagers in correctional institutions are treated the same way as regards nudity as adult criminals, as I have explained in my previous post to MW.
 
You are also making wrong conclusions and mis-statements, because no one has suggested that children should be treated the same way as hardened criminals.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #127 on: Sep 21st, 2011, 5:39am »
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on Sep 19th, 2011, 10:52am, MW wrote:

 
Bobby you need a sense of priorities.
 
Also, you argue every point without regard for how it fits into a total system.  That gives off the sense that you are making things up as you go along.
 
You need to think about, and integrate your ideas.  Also, stop attacking me, personally.  This is not about me.  Yet you have now made me your overriding concern.  Of course, I don't give a shit; you own that problem, not me.  But you cheapen yourself when you do this...and that goes for your ideas as well.  If you want to be an effective debator, keep your arguments in the abstract.  Don't personify them.

 
MW, I am not attacking you, or anyone else, personally. I am just commenting on your posts, with examples and explanations.
It is in fact you who has attacked me personally by saying that I should go back to school.
But I don't take it too seriously, and hope that we will keep this discussion on a friendly level.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #128 on: Sep 21st, 2011, 12:45pm »
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on Sep 21st, 2011, 5:18am, Bobby_Bare wrote:

 
 
MW, you keep bringing up irrelevant examples and comparisons.
A mother helping to bathe her son, as Easterman is saying, is quite different than the example you give of the mother inviting her friends to come and watch her teen son bathing.

 
How are you going to prove that?  If a prosecutor decides to convene a Grand Jury, he can indict a ham sandwich, as the saying goes.  It's that easy.  All you need is a good spin story and a few extraneous facts that happen to fit in.  I can assure you, that will not be an "irrelevant example or comparison."  All you seem to want to do is argue the example, while totally misunderstanding the system.
 
I've already described what will happen in the trial, so lets move on.
 
Quote:
One is perfectly legal, and nothing wrong with it, while the other can be considered as abuse.

 
Defense by assumption.  I'd fire any lawyer who brought that into the courtroom.  You pose two different scenarios, yet I defy you to prove by lawful evidence that the two are any different.  "Law" would hope to be based upon fact, but no, it's almost totally opinion.  People have a nasty habit of making up their own mind as to their own opinion.  Your'e so bogged down by arguing examples that you fail to see the essential reality.  As I said, you'd be that ham sandwich.
 
There's a guy in jail in Aruba right now.  So far, all we know of the facts is that a man and woman went swimming and the only witness (the man) says she got caught in a rip tide and disappeared.  But lurking in the background is the Natalee Holloway case that was botched by the island's authorities.  They are the laughing stock of the world.  So, by the time the guy will have spent over 100-days in jail,  they still won't have a case.  My bet is they won't find a body, won't be able to establish a clear motive, and won't even be able to say a crime took place.
 
But will that make any difference?  He too is relying on defense by assumption.  But the authorities have dug up just enough peripheral facts to make things look like a duck, walk like a duck and talk like a duck...to establish the spin story.
 
I will be very surprised if they don't at least try to indict him.  I'm no happier about that than you are.  I'm just giving you the 'heads up'.  Reality is, the system works the exact opposite of what you think.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #129 on: Sep 21st, 2011, 2:57pm »
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Wow!  I'm really glad my children are adults now because, if what MW is saying is correct, these are really "nutty" times in which to raise children.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #130 on: Sep 21st, 2011, 3:32pm »
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on Sep 21st, 2011, 12:45pm, MW wrote:

 
How are you going to prove that?  If a prosecutor decides to convene a Grand Jury, he can indict a ham sandwich, as the saying goes.  It's that easy.  All you need is a good spin story and a few extraneous facts that happen to fit in.  I can assure you, that will not be an "irrelevant example or comparison."  All you seem to want to do is argue the example, while totally misunderstanding the system.
 
I've already described what will happen in the trial, so lets move on.
 
 
Defense by assumption.  I'd fire any lawyer who brought that into the courtroom.  You pose two different scenarios, yet I defy you to prove by lawful evidence that the two are any different.  "Law" would hope to be based upon fact, but no, it's almost totally opinion.  People have a nasty habit of making up their own mind as to their own opinion.  Your'e so bogged down by arguing examples that you fail to see the essential reality.  As I said, you'd be that ham sandwich.
 
There's a guy in jail in Aruba right now.  So far, all we know of the facts is that a man and woman went swimming and the only witness (the man) says she got caught in a rip tide and disappeared.  But lurking in the background is the Natalee Holloway case that was botched by the island's authorities.  They are the laughing stock of the world.  So, by the time the guy will have spent over 100-days in jail,  they still won't have a case.  My bet is they won't find a body, won't be able to establish a clear motive, and won't even be able to say a crime took place.
 
But will that make any difference?  He too is relying on defense by assumption.  But the authorities have dug up just enough peripheral facts to make things look like a duck, walk like a duck and talk like a duck...to establish the spin story.
 
I will be very surprised if they don't at least try to indict him.  I'm no happier about that than you are.  I'm just giving you the 'heads up'.  Reality is, the system works the exact opposite of what you think.

 
 
MW, again the example of a missing person is a much more serious case than the one we are discussing here, because it could involve murder among other things.
I know what you are tryng to get at, namely that a prosecution can bring charges against anyone on the least pretext. But I assure you that a serious jury would want serious, concrete evidence to conviict anyone.
 
I have friends who have done, and still do, jury duties, one of them in New York. They tell me that unless a jury is unanimous and haven't got the least doubt about a case that they will never convict a person.
 
But I would like to ask you a question to prove what you are saying. Have you ever heard of a case where a mother was convicted for bathing her son?  
This is the subject we are discussing here, not murders and missing persons.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #131 on: Sep 21st, 2011, 5:48pm »
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on Sep 21st, 2011, 5:18am, Bobby_Bare wrote:

 
 
MW, you keep bringing up irrelevant examples and comparisons.
A mother helping to bathe her son, as Easterman is saying, is quite different than the example you give of the mother inviting her friends to come and watch her teen son bathing.
One is perfectly legal, and nothing wrong with it, while the other can be considered as abuse.

 
 
Do you realize the number of people who after having taking pictures of themselves bathing their toddlers (probably because they thought it was cute) got arrested after getting reported by those developing the photos? If you're bathing a kid who's old enough to bathe himself, and someone decides it's inappropriate and reports you,then you WILL be arrested and as MW says, good luck trying to convince them there was nothing illicit going on.And don't expect the kid to deny anything inappropriate when on because he'll be convinced that you did,and if not, will say that you did just so they'll stop questioning him. There's been many cases like that, where kids say what the police/social workers/etc.. want to hear because they're told if they do, they'll get to go back home. You may say it shouldn't be that way, and I agree, but it is that way. and there's little we can do to change it.
 
 
on Sep 21st, 2011, 5:18am, Bobby_Bare wrote:

Just one word about this. There is a difference between nude pictures and pornographc pictures. That is why I ask you to make distinctions in the examples you mention.

 
The difference is in the eye of the beholder.People have been convicted for photos of naked toddlers because it was decided that it was pornographic.For some, all nudity is pornographic.
 
 
 
on Sep 21st, 2011, 5:18am, Bobby_Bare wrote:

But I would like to ask you a question to prove what you are saying. Have you ever heard of a case where a mother was convicted for bathing her son?

 
 
I don't know about MW, but I have.As I said above, the reason was that they took pictures.I say "they" because it was both parents who ended up in prison.They were eventually exonerated,but only after having their child taking away and spending a sometime in prison.After getting out of prison, it was a few more years before they could get their kid back.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #132 on: Sep 21st, 2011, 6:08pm »
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on Sep 21st, 2011, 5:31am, Bobby_Bare wrote:

SomeDude, it is not a false comparison, because boys and teenagers in correctional institutions are treated the same way as regards nudity as adult criminals, as I have explained in my previous post to MW.

 
I don't know if they're being treated the same way in juvenile places.If that's the case, it's wrong and those places need to be shut down and the those inflicting that kind of treatment need to be arrested.
 
 
 
on Sep 21st, 2011, 5:31am, Bobby_Bare wrote:

You are also making wrong conclusions and mis-statements, because no one has suggested that children should be treated the same way as hardened criminals.

 
That's not true.It has been suggested that children be treated like hardened criminals, and it was suggested by you. While you didn't directly say it, you've never opposed the idea and seem to believe it's ok.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #133 on: Sep 21st, 2011, 8:03pm »
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on Sep 20th, 2011, 3:52pm, MW wrote:

 
 
 
A.  "Well, yes...but a minor cannot give consent by law.  Children are what we call: Incompacitated from consenting.     So it doesn't matter.
 
 
End of.........

 
"Incompacitated"?
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #134 on: Sep 21st, 2011, 11:40pm »
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on Sep 21st, 2011, 8:03pm, funnison wrote:

 
"Incompacitated"?

 
Yep.  They have no capacity to either give consent or withhold consent.
 
Forgive the typo.  I'm sure you knew what I meant.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #135 on: Sep 22nd, 2011, 12:19am »
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on Sep 21st, 2011, 3:32pm, Bobby_Bare wrote:

 
 
MW, again the example of a missing person is a much more serious case than the one we are discussing here, because it could involve murder among other things.

 
Bobby, again you argue with the example and totally miss the point.  Who cares what the case is?  The point is that they will totally screw with your mind in order to make out a conviction.  It's the same, whether a murder or a shoplifting charge.
 
Quote:
I know what you are tryng to get at, namely that a prosecution can bring charges against anyone on the least pretext. But I assure you that a serious jury would want serious, concrete evidence to conviict anyone.

 
A jury will convict a ham sandwich.  Look at the Scott Peterson case.  It's not hard to get a 100% jury verdict.  I once had a gf who was called to jury duty.  During vior dire she was asked if she would have any reluctance to convict.  Her response:  "Well, if the police arrested the guy, I figure he is guilty."  She told me about it afterward.  I figure that is maybe 85% of the people who get on juries.  I've seen the stats.  The willingness to convict goes way up if the defendant is a black male.  It goes way down if the defendant is a caucasian female.  Everyone else is in between.
 
Quote:
I have friends who have done, and still do, jury duties, one of them in New York. They tell me that unless a jury is unanimous and haven't got the least doubt about a case that they will never convict a person.

 
Already answered.  A unanimous jury verdict is easy to get.
 
Quote:
But I would like to ask you a question to prove what you are saying. Have you ever heard of a case where a mother was convicted for bathing her son?  
This is the subject we are discussing here, not murders and missing persons.

 
Again, you are hung up on the example, but ignore the principle.
 
Yes, indeed I have.  Several years ago a State of Washington child protective services officer ran amuck accusing hundreds of parents child sex abuse.  He ruined many lives before "60-Minutes" exposed his practices on the air.  Many were convicted on just the kind of evidence you have before you.  It took years to unravel the damage he brought.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #136 on: Sep 22nd, 2011, 1:09am »
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on Sep 20th, 2011, 2:51am, HowlingDawg wrote:

MW,
 
Really?  There have been a half dozen teachers "screwing" 13 year olds?  Is that real?  I had no idea.  Is this male teachers with female students or female teachers with male students?  That's really very strange.  I doubt this has been going on for a long time.  If this isn't an urban legend story and has really happened, I would guess that one of the causes is accessibility to pornography via the internet.  There's no doubt pornography affects young minds and not in a good way.    

 
That's female teachers screwing male students....
 

 
Mary Kay Letourneau was found guilty of statutory rape when she had an affair with her 13-year old student, Vili Faulaau. Statutory rape is a sex crime. It was eignificant enough that she spent the years from 1997 to 2004 in prison (Note: originally she was sentenced to only a few weeks but when let out she broke probation and had sex and even got pregnant with him. Apparently, breaking probation is a much bigger deal.). She had two children with Faulaau. When she was released from prison she married him and she is still married to him.
 

 
Debora La Fave was caught screwing her 13-year old student in both Florida and Georgia.  The State of Georgia refused to prosecute, saying that she was too beautiful to convict.  The State of Florida went ahead and brought charges.  She was convicted, but at the sentencing hearing her attorney argued that she was too beautiful for prison time.  She would be victimized by lesbians and hard cases.  She she was sentenced to wear an ankle bracelet for three-years, during probation.  She was last seen shopping at Nordstrom's in Orlando.
 
(I told you.  Nothing bad ever happens to caucasion women.)
« Last Edit: Sep 22nd, 2011, 1:16am by MW » IP Logged
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #137 on: Sep 22nd, 2011, 2:44am »
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Troy Davis killed this night : shame on the American "justice" !
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #138 on: Sep 22nd, 2011, 1:53pm »
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on Sep 22nd, 2011, 2:44am, henri wrote:
Troy Davis killed this night : shame on the American "justice" !

 
+1.  An absolute disgrace.  Seven witnesses said the police coerced testimony out of them.
 
The American criminal justice system is that of a banana republic.  This was Georgia.  Much worse in the South.  They've been killing Blacks since the KKK was founded.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #139 on: Sep 23rd, 2011, 4:37am »
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on Sep 22nd, 2011, 12:19am, MW wrote:

 
Bobby, again you argue with the example and totally miss the point.  Who cares what the case is?  The point is that they will totally screw with your mind in order to make out a conviction.  It's the same, whether a murder or a shoplifting charge.
 
 
A jury will convict a ham sandwich.  Look at the Scott Peterson case.  It's not hard to get a 100% jury verdict.  I once had a gf who was called to jury duty.  During vior dire she was asked if she would have any reluctance to convict.  Her response:  "Well, if the police arrested the guy, I figure he is guilty."  She told me about it afterward.  I figure that is maybe 85% of the people who get on juries.  I've seen the stats.  The willingness to convict goes way up if the defendant is a black male.  It goes way down if the defendant is a caucasian female.  Everyone else is in between."
 
 
Again you are making false assumptions.
I know that the American system is biased against certain classes of society, but to say that 85% of people who sit on juries think  "Well, if the police arrested the guy, I figure he is guilty" is way misleading.
At least the American system which requires unanimous agreement on a jury verdict makes sure that this does not happen.  So  if just one of the jury does not agree with the majority it will not pass.
In other countries, even in Europe, the verdict is dictated by the majority vote in a jury, and does not require unanimous agreement.
 
 
"Again, you are hung up on the example, but ignore the principle.
 
Yes, indeed I have.  Several years ago a State of Washington child protective services officer ran amuck accusing hundreds of parents child sex abuse.  He ruined many lives before "60-Minutes" exposed his practices on the air.  Many were convicted on just the kind of evidence you have before you.  It took years to unravel the damage he brought.
"
 
Again a misleading and irrelevant example because you didn't say what the "child sex abuse" was about.
I asked you a simple question relevant to what we are discussing here "Do you know of any case where a mother was charged with bathing her son".
 
I am not saying this with any offensive intent, but to keep on subject, and not bring irrelevant examples which are misleading to the case being discussed.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #140 on: Sep 23rd, 2011, 8:50am »
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on Sep 23rd, 2011, 4:37am, Bobby_Bare wrote:

"
 
Again a misleading and irrelevant example because you didn't say what the "child sex abuse" was about.
I asked you a simple question relevant to what we are discussing here "Do you know of any case where a mother was charged with bathing her son".
 
I am not saying this with any offensive intent, but to keep on subject, and not bring irrelevant examples which are misleading to the case being discussed.

 
You say irrelevant, I say on-point.  You're never going to find two cases exactly alike when making an analogy.  Maybe one kid had brown eyes and the other kid had blue eyes.  Does that make the analogy irrelevant?  In order to qualify as irrelevant you must show an essential difference in the two cases.
 
You asked me to give you an example of someone being prosecuted for something very ordinary.  I offered the protective services officer who ran amuck in Washington.  He ruined hundreds of families, perhaps one case or the other was exactly the situation of a mother bathing a son while inviting her female friends in.  See if you can google the incident and research it.
 
I feel I've already successfully offered the relevant situation.  To argue miniscule differences in the example is a waste of time.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #141 on: Sep 23rd, 2011, 4:23pm »
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on Sep 23rd, 2011, 8:50am, MW wrote:

 
 
You asked me to give you an example of someone being prosecuted for something very ordinary.  I offered the protective services officer who ran amuck in Washington.  He ruined hundreds of families, perhaps one case or the other was exactly the situation of a mother bathing a son while inviting her female friends in.  See if you can google the incident and research it.
.

 
If you ask me, I think that the FBI & U.S. protective Authorities are gonna get this country into a war because we're pushing our version of The Law upon other nations.    
I also believe that our Police Force is using issues such as Child Protection as an excuse to expand their Sphere of Influence over our lives.    In other words, the government has gone amuck controlling our lives. And they'll use any excuse imaginable to expand on that.
 
I agree with MJ on one issue.  I would never recommend taking your computer to Best Buy or Staples to get worked on.   Those slimebags go through all your files and folders.   And, they're looking for some reason to win points with the FBI.  I think it's called Ass-Kissing.  
 Lips Sealed Kiss   That's why I always take my computer to a mom and pop shop.  At least, they're alittle more rational, not to be so hasty trying to impress the authorities by making outlandish accusations.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #142 on: Sep 24th, 2011, 10:39am »
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I think the facts are that the US has the highest proportion of prisoners per capita than any other country in the world. There must be a lot of citizens, authorised or not, working out how to incarcerate the rest.  
 
I find it ironic that the US is known as " The Land of the Free" - it's a bigger myth than boys swimming nude at the YMCA.  
 
PS - All said tongue in cheek, but at the same time that attitude is being 'exported overseas', which really cheeses me off. The media & internet has its negative side.  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #143 on: Sep 24th, 2011, 3:42pm »
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on Sep 24th, 2011, 10:39am, mrglad2cu2 wrote:
I think the facts are that the US has the highest proportion of prisoners per capita than any other country in the world. There must be a lot of citizens, authorised or not, working out how to incarcerate the rest.  
 
I find it ironic that the US is known as " The Land of the Free" - it's a bigger myth than boys swimming nude at the YMCA.  
 
PS - All said tongue in cheek, but at the same time that attitude is being 'exported overseas', which really cheeses me off. The media & internet has its negative side.  

 
Mr Glad,
Males having swum naked years ago at the YMCA is most definitely not a myth.  I would attest under oath in a court of law that I swam naked at YMCA's as did many other men.  I would also attest that this was common and socially accepted practice years ago not only in YMCA's but also in various other male only facilities.  What I cannot attest to from personal experience is that males swam naked in the presence of females at YMCA's.  Others have told me this happened but, as I wrote previously, I have no personal experience with this type of situation.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #144 on: Sep 24th, 2011, 6:40pm »
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Historically America has always tried to impose its neurotic morality on other nations.
 
Beginning with the first American missionaries to Hawaii, who were shocked by the casual nudity of the people there, and continuing with their growing influence in the Pacific and across South East Asia, as also other countries, they tried to impose their type of moraity on all the people they met there.
 
Unfortunately they are still trying to impose this influence today, even in Europe, and across the world.
I remember seeing documentaries as a kid about American missionary organizations distributing shorts to naked African tribes.
In fact I am surprised that male nude swimming was allowed at all in places like the YMCA's and High Schools.
 
The British were much more sophisticated than that because even during the days of their vast Empire, which included most of Africa,  and many parts of Asia,  their policy was to leave the locals alone in their traditions and customs, as long as this didn't clash with law and order.
 
Of course one must realize that this is all due to the strong influence and power of the American religious fundamentalist groups.
Much of American politics and laws are dictated by these groups.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #145 on: Sep 24th, 2011, 11:55pm »
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on Sep 24th, 2011, 6:40pm, Bobby_Bare wrote:

Of course one must realize that this is all due to the strong influence and power of the American religious fundamentalist groups.
Much of American politics and laws are dictated by these groups.

 
 
In other words, right-wing conservatives. That's where you'll find the religious fundamentalists.Those are the ones who  complained about NYPD Blue (the TV show) showing partial nudity.They're the ones who had a meltdown about Janet Jacksons nipple at the Superbowl.They're the ones who wanted nude statues at the Capitol covered up because they were views as indecent.They're the ones who attack nudist beaches and resorts.The list goes on and on.Right-wingers are mentally ill.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #146 on: Sep 24th, 2011, 11:59pm »
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on Sep 24th, 2011, 3:42pm, HowlingDawg wrote:

 
Mr Glad,
Males having swum naked years ago at the YMCA is most definitely not a myth.  I would attest under oath in a court of law that I swam naked at YMCA's as did many other men.  I would also attest that this was common and socially accepted practice years ago not only in YMCA's but also in various other male only facilities.  What I cannot attest to from personal experience is that males swam naked in the presence of females at YMCA's.  Others have told me this happened but, as I wrote previously, I have no personal experience with this type of situation.  

 
 
HowlingDawg, mrglad2cu2 wasn't serious when he said that,as can be seen by his writing the following:  "PS - All said tongue in cheek".
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #147 on: Sep 25th, 2011, 8:31pm »
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on Sep 23rd, 2011, 4:23pm, Dan2 wrote:

 
If you ask me, I think that the FBI & U.S. protective Authorities are gonna get this country into a war because we're pushing our version of The Law upon other nations.    
I also believe that our Police Force is using issues such as Child Protection as an excuse to expand their Sphere of Influence over our lives.    In other words, the government has gone amuck controlling our lives. And they'll use any excuse imaginable to expand on that.
 
I agree with MJ on one issue.  I would never recommend taking your computer to Best Buy or Staples to get worked on.   Those slimebags go through all your files and folders.   And, they're looking for some reason to win points with the FBI.  I think it's called Ass-Kissing.  
 Lips Sealed Kiss   That's why I always take my computer to a mom and pop shop.  At least, they're alittle more rational, not to be so hasty trying to impress the authorities by making outlandish accusations.  

 
Is this discussion still going on?  I've been away for 2 or 3 days.
 
Dan:
 
I'm really glad you made the point that protective services going too far.  I think a lot of posters think I was arguing in favor of that, when in fact I was warning against that.
 
A couple of weeks ago I was on a British site.  Apparently, the British high court is revising the rules on pediphiles getting to visit their biological children.  The posters were going wild, saying they should be put to death, and all...  Posters, those of you who have said juries are all fair and won't convict without reasonable doubt, listen up.  Those are those fair and impartial jurors you are relying upon.
 
Anyway, I practically got banned for saying that America has gone too far in its prosecution of pedophiles.  Alot of those cases are just ex-wives trying to get ex-husbands out of the way so they can marry their lovers.
 
Anyway, I was treated like a criminal for just pointing out the dilemma.  So much for tolerance in a democratic nation.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #148 on: Sep 25th, 2011, 8:42pm »
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on Sep 23rd, 2011, 4:23pm, Dan2 wrote:

 
If you ask me, I think that the FBI & U.S. protective Authorities are gonna get this country into a war because we're pushing our version of The Law upon other nations.    
I also believe that our Police Force is using issues such as Child Protection as an excuse to expand their Sphere of Influence over our lives.    In other words, the government has gone amuck controlling our lives. And they'll use any excuse imaginable to expand on that.
 
I agree with MJ on one issue.  I would never recommend taking your computer to Best Buy or Staples to get worked on.   Those slimebags go through all your files and folders.   And, they're looking for some reason to win points with the FBI.  I think it's called Ass-Kissing.  
 Lips Sealed Kiss   That's why I always take my computer to a mom and pop shop.  At least, they're alittle more rational, not to be so hasty trying to impress the authorities by making outlandish accusations.  

 
Is this discussion still going on?  I've been away for 2 or 3 days.
 
Dan:
 
I'm really glad you made the point that protective services going too far.  I think a lot of posters think I was arguing in favor of that, when in fact I was warning against that.
 
A couple of weeks ago I was on a British site.  Apparently, the British high court is revising the rules on pediphiles getting to visit their biological children.  The posters were going wild, saying they should be put to death, and all...  Posters, those of you who have said juries are all fair and won't convict without reasonable doubt, listen up.  Those are those fair and impartial jurors you are relying upon.
 
Anyway, I practically got banned for saying that America has gone too far in its prosecution of pedophiles.  Alot of those cases are just ex-wives trying to get ex-husbands out of the way so they can marry their lovers.
 
Anyway, I was treated like a criminal for just pointing out the dilemma.  Ha-ha, So much for tolerance in a democratic nation.
« Last Edit: Sep 25th, 2011, 8:45pm by MW » IP Logged
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #149 on: Sep 25th, 2011, 10:28pm »
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MW  
 
re: I'm really glad you made the point that protective services going too far.
 
That is part of how they justify their jobs and get more staffing and budgets.  More investigations, justified or not, creates a lot of paperwork etc...  If they had no one to investigate and prosecute, their budgets and jobs would shrink.
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Re: Boys Nude in front of Girls at the Y
« Reply #150 on: Sep 27th, 2011, 6:42am »
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on Sep 25th, 2011, 10:28pm, robert wrote:
MW  
 
re: I'm really glad you made the point that protective services going too far.
 
That is part of how they justify their jobs and get more staffing and budgets.  More investigations, justified or not, creates a lot of paperwork etc...  If they had no one to investigate and prosecute, their budgets and jobs would shrink.

 
Whereas, people have a conscience, institutions have no conscience.  A person routinely going along has to ask himself every second, is this right or is this wrong?  But an institution is a bunch of functionaries given a job.  They never ask if it's right or wrong.  They are given a job and they get paid for it...of course it's right.  That's the problem with institutions, they have no automatic conscience.
 
Google the case of Clyde Ray Spencer in Washington state.  Twenty years in prison because the system went crazy.  Here:  
 
http://angiemedia.com/2009/09/21/father-imprisoned-20-years-on-fake-chil d-sex-abuse-charges/
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DVD-10
Academy for Girls & Personal Trainer
50 minutes
$29.95
CFNM - Clothed Female Naked Male fetish video productions by CFNMzone. The girls' sex class has brought in a live male specimen to be examined. Video 2: This personal trainer required him to work out nude so she can better assess his physical progress. LINK TO SAMPLES

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ADD TO MPEG CART: $19.95 XVID - or check out
CFNMzone
DVD-12
2006 CFNM Games & Strip or Consequences
50 minutes
$29.95
CFNM - Clothed Female Naked Male fetish video productions by CFNMzone. In the spirit of the fact that the original Olympics were done in the nude. Video 2: This lucky guy is the girls personal plaything. LINK TO SAMPLES

ADD TO DVD CART: $29.95 DVD - or check out
ADD TO MPEG CART: $19.95 XVID - or check out
CFNMzone
DVD-13
St. Patricks Day Party & Paula's Pecker Boy Audition
50 minutes
$29.95
CFNM - Clothed Female Naked Male fetish video productions by CFNMzone. The boys wear green hats and nothing else. Video 2: The boys show the girls everything they've got. LINK TO SAMPLES

ADD TO DVD CART: $29.95 DVD - or check out
ADD TO MPEG CART: $19.95 XVID - or check out
CFNMzone
DVD-15
Who's Fooling Who & Tied/Tickled II
68 minutes
$29.95
CFNM - Clothed Female Naked Male fetish video productions by CFNMzone. Art School confidential and a tickle fest. LINK TO SAMPLES

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ADD TO MPEG CART: $19.95 XVID - or check out
CFNMzone
DVD-16
My Nutty Boyfriend & Rich Girl Blues
42 minutes
$29.95
CFNM - Clothed Female Naked Male fetish video productions by CFNMzone. A surprise awakening for this guy, and rich girls get themselves some boy toys. LINK TO SAMPLES

ADD TO DVD CART: $29.95 DVD - or check out
ADD TO MPEG CART: $19.95 XVID - or check out
CFNMzone
DVD-18
Training Day & Porn for Women
70 minutes
$29.95
CFNM - Clothed Female Naked Male fetish video productions by CFNMzone. Boys just need some training, that's all. And the girls get out their cameras! LINK TO SAMPLES

ADD TO DVD CART: $29.95 DVD - or check out
ADD TO MPEG CART: $19.95 XVID - or check out
CFNMzone
DVD-19
The Gift & Happy Endings
70 minutes
$29.95
CFNM - Clothed Female Naked Male fetish video productions by CFNMzone. When you TAKE something is it still a gift? Why do pool cleaners always get all the fun? LINK TO SAMPLES

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ADD TO MPEG CART: $19.95 XVID - or check out
Vrod-100's
The Naked Mile
(Public Nudity)
100 minutes
$29.95
The world's biggest expression of CFNM ever. 8 out of 10 runners were male college students and girls came out in droves to watch this spectacle! Shot with six cameras, with over 1000 runners, this footage has never been seen before. Tightly edited with non-stop action.
vidcap samples
ADD TO DVD CART: $29.95 DVD - or check out
ADD TO MPEG CART: $19.95 XVID - or check out


It's a Naked World! Nude Beaches - Public Nudity
It's a Naked World! Nude Beaches - Public Nudity



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