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   Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
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Bobby Bare
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Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« on: Sep 12th, 2010, 7:28am »
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I don't know if this has been posted on this forum before, but I saw it recently on another forum.
In it a woman describes how she was brought up in a CFNM family and that her mother was a coach instructor as a college graduate at a boys club where all the boys swam nude.
This is half of her post, the other half later.
  
  
Subject: Three generations of males swimming nude
 
Competitive swimming has been a big part of my family for three
generations. For reasons ranging from past custom to family practice
the males in our family have always swam nude.
 
My mother was a member of the 1960 United States women's olympic
swim team. She swam and taught competitive swimming for years. I am
the youngest of her five children and the only girl. My oldest
brother is only 5 1/2 years older than me as my mother had all of us
in that short time. All the time we were growing up and throughout
high school our mother gave us swimming instruction. My four
brothers and I all swam competitively at some level. Three of my
brothers attended college on swimming scholarships. We were
fortunate to be one of only a few families in our neighborhood to
have swimming pools.
 
Ever since I can remember my brothers and father swam nude in our
pool. Only my mother and I wore swim suits. She would spend hours at
a time teaching us technical swimming techniques and driving us to
swimming perfection. She and I would be in our swim suits and my
brothers naked. When I was young I didn't think anything about
their nudity and didn't pay any attention to them. As I entered my
teenage years, I began to look at them in ways different than
before. For example I found it curious that my father was
uncircumcised and my brothers circumcised. Also, my father was very
large. My feelings were not one of incest, but rather visual
curiosity and admiration of their nude male physiques.
 
I asked my mother one day why boys swam nude and girls didn't.
She said when she was a girl that all boys, including my father,
were required to swim nude during high school swimming classes and
at YMCA's. She said that was the custom everywhere and everyone
understood that was the established practice. She then told me
something that really surprised me. My mother told me while
finishing college she worked as a swimming instructor and coach at a
Boy's Club for three years from 1961-1964. There she taught boys
up to 17 years of age, with the majority in the 10-15 age range. As
was the custom of the time, the boys swam nude. My mother said her
swim teams would compete with other area Boy's Clubs. She said the
meets were conducted with the competition in the nude. My mother
said she was the only female in presence, except occasionally when
the other swim team's coach was a female. She said her teams
always won,never losing a meet in the three years. I could tell she
was proud of her accomplishments there. To me it sounded like
something that would be exciting as I was becoming somewhat of a
voyeur.
 
When I was around 13 or 14 my mother had a serious talk with me. I
had taken to teasing my brothers about their nudity, making comments
about the size of their cocks, and poking fun at them when they got
hardons. One of my brothers, the youngest, had the biggest cock by
far and I would ridicule his older brothers about them being smaller
than their little brother. My mother said I should refrain from
making crude sexual comments or saying things to deliberately
embarrass them. She said I should never make a comment about the
size of a penis as that was a very sensitive subject with boys. She
said it was perfectly normal for girls my age to be curious about
male bodies and want to see what they have hanging between their
legs. She said finding it enjoyable looking at naked males was human
nature, for women and girls. She told me there was absolutely
nothing wrong with me looking at my brothers and father when they
are nude, that looking had nothing to do with sexual involvement.
She said it best I say nothing about it and just do it if I wanted.
 
 
 
« Last Edit: Sep 12th, 2010, 8:20am by Bobby Bare » IP Logged

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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #1 on: Sep 12th, 2010, 4:13pm »
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Great post, Bobby! Hope to see the other half soon. This is the way swimming is supposed to be!  Grin
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #2 on: Sep 12th, 2010, 7:48pm »
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I remember reading the entire account of that several years ago.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #3 on: Sep 12th, 2010, 9:22pm »
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I wonder what part of the country the Boy's Club was located in? Between 1961-1964, this thing didn't happen in the Long Island/New York area! This instructor must have really enjoyed the fringe benefits of her job! Her telling her daughter how it was normal for girls & women to enjoy looking at naked males was sure a true & healthy piece of advice! She was very astute as well to instruct her daughter never to poke fun at boy's or men's penises.
For the boys at the club, I admire them for having secure penises, in front of their, and an occasional rival female coach. I'm sure this built up their overall confidence with the female gender!
« Last Edit: Sep 12th, 2010, 9:23pm by SingleDonald » IP Logged
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #4 on: Sep 12th, 2010, 10:20pm »
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on Sep 12th, 2010, 7:48pm, freeed54 wrote:
I remember reading the entire account of that several years ago.

 
So did I, but it seems it has been reposted on another forum and I reposted it here.
SingleDonald, I agree with all your observations. What disappointed me about the account is that there were no female spectators, apart from the one or two female coaches, during the boys nude swim meets. I only ever read one account by a woman who said that as a young girl she regularly attended as a spectator together with her mother when her brother was competing in nude swim meets sometime in the fifties when it was probably even more acceptable and common than the account here of the sixties and later. She also mentioned the places where these took place and where she attended somewhere in the midwest.
About New York City I read somewhere that there were actually some places where boys regularly swam nude in the open. I don't know how long this practice continued or when it was stopped but it was probably sometime during that era of 50's or 60's.
In any case I will post the second part later.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #5 on: Sep 13th, 2010, 10:27am »
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 Boys in NYC certainly swam nude in the open back in the 50s. I remember the CIRCLE LINE cruises around the island, the boat would pass piers in the east river and also the HARLEM RIVER. Boys, always nude, would be diving off the piers and showing off for the people on the boats. Always got laughs from the people on board and I think the person on the PA would even comment about it.  
 Dirty water but that was back in the pre air conditioning days. More than likely it also occurred on the NORTH, HUDSON river but the boat was to far from shore to tell. Would not be surprised if there is not some mention of it somewhere on the internet.  LEO C
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #6 on: Sep 13th, 2010, 10:33am »
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This is the second part of her post.
 
I got married when I was pretty young, moved out of state, and had a
son. Five years ago my son and I moved back to my home town after my
husband and I divorced. My mother was so excited about the
possibility that she could make her grandson into a competitive
swimmer. My father had died the year before so I thought it would be
a good diversion for her. She had an outdoor pool building installed
with an environmental control system so she could train him year
around. My son was 13 at the time. It was early summer and he was
out of school so he stayed with my mother during the day while I was
at work. I knew she was giving him swimming lessons and spending a
lot of time devoted to his training. She was having him practice for
approximately two hours three times daily with an hour rest period
between practices. I knew she was working him hard as he was
exhausted in the evenings. I wasn't surprised by this regiment as
that is how she trained herself and how she did with us kids years
before during our summers. She told me several times she was pleased
with his progress.
 
About six weeks after moving back I was off work one afternoon and
went to her house to visit. When no one answered the door I walked
in and went directly to the back door figuring they were out back in
the pool house. Going outside I immediately saw my mother and son
through the large floor-to-ceiling plate glass windows. They were
standing by the side of the pool and she was talking to him. My
mother was wearing shorts and a tank top and my son was totally
naked. I really wasn't all that surprised, but it did startle me.
I stood there a minute and watched. They did not notice me. Standing
there I suddenly experienced a quick flashback to those days years
ago when I used to see my father and brothers nude all the time in
the presence of my mother or me. I experienced feelings reminiscent
of what I had felt years ago when seeing a naked male. As I stood
there thinking about how I was reacting and watching my mother's
enthusiasm for what she was doing, I recalled what she had told me
years earlier, that for a woman to enjoy looking at naked males was
natural. It occurred to me that my mother was doing what she liked
best, combining her passion for swimming and enjoyment of teaching
boys competitive swimming skills. I understood for the first time
that male nudity was a big part of both for her. She had rekindled
the enjoyment of her youth, when she taught swimming to hundreds of
nude young males to the Boy's Club, with her own sons and
husband,and now she was reliving it again with her grandson. I knew
she would never do anything sexually inappropriate with him and was
comfortable that she knew what she was doing. She had been a
positive influence on my brothers and I knew she was going to have
the same positive effect on my son.
 
I walked into the pool building, a beautiful swimming facility that
she keeps spotlessly clean. My entrance surprised my son and he
appeared a bit embarrassed, but my mother just smiled and beaming
with pride said he was doing very well. She praised him for his
efforts and dedication. I didn't say a word about his nudity and
told them to not let me interrupt. I walked over and sat in a chair
and watched as she resumed her instruction, ignoring my presence. I
watched my son swimming nude, doing laps and getting in and out of
the pool. The pool house, with wall-to-wall plate glass windows on
all sides, offered no privacy, but none was necessary. My mother
lived alone and she has a huge back yard with a high wooden fence
surrounding it. I found myself looking at my son the same way I had
looked at my brothers and father, deciding his cock was a bit on the
large size for his age. I stayed until his lesson was finished about
thirty minutes later. After drying off with a towel and dropping it
is a clothes hamper in the pool room, my mother and I followed
behind my son as he walked naked from the pool house to inside her
home.
 
Later, my mother talked to me about my son's swimming lessons and
I asked her about the nudity. She said having a boy practice while
nude was an good teaching technique as it causes them to focus on
their body, an important aspect in developing proper bodily
mechanics. She also said it helped them gain confidence in their
bodies, pointing out that the top performing swimmers all have both
mental confidence and proper bodily mechanics. She said it is very
important to teach a young student swimmer that male nudity in the
presence of a female instructor is a very natural thing. She said it
was easier back when she worked at the Boy's Club because all
males, men and boys, were accustomed to swimming nude. She said it
was also easier with a group of boys than when teaching them one-on-
one. She went on to say my son at first experienced some
embarrassment and anxiety, but that was to be expected due to
changes over the past 40 years in cultural acceptance of public male
nudity and because he had already reached puberty. I asked her how
she got him to swim nude and how she helped him overcome his
shyness. My mother said on the first day she simply told my son she
wanted him to practice without him wearing a swim suit and gave him
the reasons why. They were inside her home at the time and she told
him to go ahead and take off his clothes. She intentionally did it
inside her home away from the pool because she wanted to set the
tone where he didn't feel he needed to be modest in her presence.
She said he was visibly nervous about it, but did as he was told. My
son had always looked up to his grandmother and idolized her for her
olympic swimming achievements and he knew she had a reputation for
teaching competitive swimming. I am sure he thought she knew what
she was doing even if it did seem odd to him. My mother said after
his first practice she had his rest period take place within the
pool house with him resting in a lounge chair far way from his
clothing. After his second practice they went inside her home for
some lunch. When he asked if he should get dressed she told him that
wouldn't be necessary. She said widening the area from the pool
in which he remained unclothed was a way teaching him that casual
male nudity in the presence of a female was acceptable and it helped
him get used to it. She said because boys do get erections that is
especially important that he not be shamed or scolded when they
occur. My mother said my son did have a tendency to get erections
frequently,usually during periods of non-swimming times within the
pool room or inside her home. She said they were typical of boys his
age and not saying anything about them actually helped him get
comfortable with his nakedness in her presence. According to her,
this is the pattern she established with my son. I found this
interesting because that is exactly what she did with my brothers.
Male nudity was commonplace in our home and not only in the pool
area. She just didn't believe sexual modesty was necessary for
boys.
 
In the years that followed I watched my son's swimming lessons
with my mother many times and she and I have swam with him often.
During the school year she worked with him late afternoons and
evenings. When it is dark during the Winter nights, the pool house
is well lighted and the climate control system keeps the pool and
room temperature remain balanced for optimal comfort. I was amazed
at how well she works with him and improves his swim skills and
strives to build up his endurance. She pushes him to excel and works
him until he is totally exhausted. My mother would usually swim with
him and she stayed in peak physical condition herself. Thanks to my
mother my son is comfortable with his nudity in my presence and I am
comfortable with it as well. It seems all so natural for me as that
his how it was when my father and brothers swam naked when I was
growing up. I have watched my son swim nude for years and found it
interesting observing his sexual development as he got older. I was
fascinated watching his genitals grow to well above average
proportions. My mother has never been one to make specific comments
about my son's body. One day, however, when he was 17, she and I
were at one end of the pool and he had just crawled out of the other
end and was walking back towards us. His cock was semi-erect. My
mother was looking at my son and she remarked that he was a fine
looking young man. She smiled and made a comment that he probably
got his large penis from my father's genes. It was an interesting
moment for me. For once she was not talking as a mother to daughter,
but two women who enjoy seeing a nude male. Best of all for me has
been watching my mother and son's relationship. She is doing what
she has done for three generations, teaching boys to be wonderfully
successful competitive swimmers and he is responding to her
direction. She is good to my son and he adores her. She has helped
him develop a healthy and wholesome attitude about his body and his
nudity. My son is fortunate to have her take him under her tutelage.
 
For over five years now my mother has religiously pursued her dream
of training her grandson to someday become an olympic swimmer like
her. When he was a sophomore in high school he made the varsity swim
team and broke a number of records for a sophomore. He is 18 now and
holds several state swimming records. He still swims nude in her
pool with her always by his side. She has succeeded with her
grandson the same as she did with her own four sons and the many
young males at the Boy's Club over 40 years ago.
 
Deb
 
 
 
 
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #7 on: Sep 13th, 2010, 4:19pm »
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It doesn't surprise me that males might swim nude in families.  I don't believe there is an inherent advantage for their training however.  If it did, everyone would do it.  Furthermore, if training in the nude was good for boys it would have been good for girls also.  Obviously the grandmother was something of a voyeur.  What does it matter, she never sexually abused her proteges.  
 
I can see how if the female coach was an Olympic swimmer parents might tolerate a few eccentricities liking having the boys swim in the nude.  Competing in the nude is a little harder to swallow.  Generally swim meets take place in public and are attended by family members.  Mothers and fathers would not like their daughters attending meets where the boys swam in the nude.  One of the things I have noticed about these stories is that they always second hand.  
 
I grew up in an era when the boys swam in the nude in gym class but the girls didn't.  There were never any girls present during swim class.  We had a swim team but they always wore suits during practice and during meets.  I don't want to say the story isn't true but I would like some first hand witnesses and also some confirmation like a news report.  
« Last Edit: Sep 13th, 2010, 4:28pm by Youngren » IP Logged
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #8 on: Sep 13th, 2010, 5:07pm »
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Thanks, Bobby, for posting the second part!   Smiley
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #9 on: Sep 13th, 2010, 9:23pm »
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Bobby_Bare,
 
I also thank you, as I thoroughly enjoyed the 2nd part as well!
I'll get back to this, but must also agree with Youngren. My father swam nude at the YMCA, but there were never any women present. Also, the nude swimming would be hard to imagine, at competitive meets, with girls/women in the stands. Now, I believe Leo _C that he experienced this, as a kid, but feel this was the rare exception, and only took place in certain parts of the country.
Back to Part II of Deb's story. I loved the way her youthful mother initiated her son on cross gender nudity. I liked how the boy then accepted his mom seeing all, and agree that the interest both women took in the young man's anatomy was quite normal & healthy! It also would have been okay for the teenager to ask either woman what they thought of his development. From the story, I'm sure Deb and her mom would have assured him that he had a well developed penis that girls should find attractive.
Finally, I must praise the young man on his security with both women. I'm sure, as I always say, that this increased his confidence with girls he knew, and with the female gender overall! All boys/men should experience this!  
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #10 on: Sep 13th, 2010, 10:01pm »
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Youngren and Singledonald, Deb stated quite specifically that there were never any females present during the boys nude swim meets, except her mother as the coach and the other team's coach if she was also a woman. So I don't know why you are both concluding that she said otherwise.
Also as SingleDonald has said there could have been exceptions in some parts of the country where nude swim meets were actually attended by female spectators, mostly relatives of the competing boys.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #11 on: Sep 13th, 2010, 10:56pm »
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Bobby_Bare,
 
I wasn't concluding that Deb said that female spectators were present at these meets. I was just reflecting on the overall possibility of it taking place, in the past.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #12 on: Sep 14th, 2010, 7:42am »
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Donald, I always enjoy your comments about CFNM!
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #13 on: Sep 14th, 2010, 3:45pm »
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 Am posting this on the chance I may have been misunderstood on my other post. I was never part of any swimming or diving competition. Dont even know if there was anything like that at the Y I attended. In my case, having mothers and sisters present when we boys swam at the Y occured only once in maybe 4 years. Happen in 1958. The 4 or 5 boys who had their mothers and sisters present for our family day demonstration did wear bathing suits as well as the instructor. The rest of us boys were nude and thought nothing of it.  
  Also, on some occasions, one or the other of the 2 women who worked the front desk or office would on occasion come to the pool to talk to the instructor. These times I remember the instructor remaining nude when she was present. The fact that he remained nude indicated to us boys that we should not be concerned with her presence. It was a male atmosphere and she just happen to work there. Long time ago, between 54 and 58. I was 13 or 14. Took place in central N.J.  LEO C
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #14 on: Sep 14th, 2010, 3:58pm »
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Quote:
Also, on some occasions, one or the other of the 2 women who worked the front desk or office would on occasion come to the pool to talk to the instructor. These times I remember the instructor remaining nude when she was present. The fact that he remained nude indicated to us boys that we should not be concerned with her presence. It was a male atmosphere and she just happen to work there. Long time ago, between 54 and 58. I was 13 or 14. Took place in central N.J.  LEO C

 
Yes, Leo, that was how it was at the Y when I was a boy - a male atmosphere and women just happened to work there. Thus male nudity was acceptable to all. I also recall on occasion a male instructor who was nude talking to a woman from another part of the Y who had come into the pool area while we were swimming.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #15 on: Sep 14th, 2010, 4:00pm »
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I am curious what other forum this came from. It is obviously pure fiction.
 
We can deduce from the fact that the grandmother was supposedly on the 1960 Olympic team that the author was born after that (1965 or so?).  So we are to believe that her brothers who were born in the mid to late 60s were having these nude swim meats in the early to mid 1980s? Does that sound plausible?
 
Further, the time-line would dictate  that the grandson in question was born 1985 or later. This means it was  at least 1998 or later when his nude swimming commenced and it was still happening as recently as 2002 or so. Does this really fit with the times? Can we really accept that a guy who is only in his early to mid  20s NOW was swimming naked in front of his mother and grandmother as recently as 6 or 8 years ago?
 
Also, IF this were true Mom and Grandma are HUGE perverts .Turn the tables. Can you imagine a modern day Grandfather making his 13 year old granddaughter swim naked in front of him AND her father? Would we think Dad and Grandpa getting turned on was OK?
 
This story is 100% fiction.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #16 on: Sep 14th, 2010, 5:31pm »
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Amishboy, you seem to be confusing everything. She never said that her brothers competed, or even swam, nude outside of their home. So I don't know where you got this. In fact she says that she was surprised when her mother told her that boys used to swim nude at clubs and meets in the early sixties when she was an instructor, so it was obviously not going on in her time.
And what is so 'perverted' about a boy swimming nude in front of his mother and grandmother at their own home?
You are also contradicting yourself here because unless I am mistaken, and correct me if I am wrong, you yourself have said in previous posts that you grew up in an Amish community where it was custamary for males of all ages to swim nude in front of girls and women, including fathers in front of daughters etc. So are we to assume that this is all fiction or that they were all perverted if it is true? Your account is a lot more unbelievable if one had to choose between the two.
Of course having said this I cannot vouch for her  account whether it is true or not, because I have no connection with it, but I don't see anything out of this world or contradictory in her account.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #17 on: Sep 14th, 2010, 6:42pm »
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I quote:
 
"My mother told me while
finishing college she worked as a swimming instructor and coach at a
Boy's Club for three years from 1961-1964. There she taught boys
up to 17 years of age, with the majority in the 10-15 age range. As
was the custom of the time, the boys swam nude. My mother said her
swim teams would compete with other area Boy's Clubs. She said the
meets were conducted with the competition in the nude".
 
I have never seen any credible evidence that competitions were held in the nude in the 60s.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #18 on: Sep 14th, 2010, 7:52pm »
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Does that mean that they never happened?
Do we have any evidence that the Amish were CFNM people?
Do we have any evidence that thousands of boys all across America had regular swim classes in the nude at school for decades? I have never seen a genuine photo of this even though it is claimed that it was on such a large scale. The few photos we have are from the Y only.  
And what would have been unusual if the boys competed in the nude among themselves and with smilar clubs when they always swam and practiced in the nude? She herself said that there were no females present apart from the coaches.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #19 on: Sep 14th, 2010, 10:41pm »
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I guess you're right. I've never seen a unicorn either but since I can't PROVE they DON'T exist I'm a fool to be skeptical.  
 
I have a sure thing I want you to invest in. Interested?
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #20 on: Sep 15th, 2010, 7:56am »
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Amishboy, Bobby B said:
 
Quote:
You are also contradicting yourself here because unless I am mistaken, and correct me if I am wrong, you yourself have said in previous posts that you grew up in an Amish community where it was custamary for males of all ages to swim nude in front of girls and women, including fathers in front of daughters etc. So are we to assume that this is all fiction or that they were all perverted if it is true? Your account is a lot more unbelievable if one had to choose between the two.

 
Seems to me, he made a good point. (And I further recall I believe your mentioning that during bathing nude in front of sisters and other women, sometimes a boy with a boner would be teased for it.)  
 
Your response?
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #21 on: Sep 15th, 2010, 1:40pm »
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My take on the story. Could be somewhat true with embelishments added. Cant comment on nude swimming/diving events as I did not know they existed until the olympics started to be broadcast. Would think that this kind of competition would be more popular at the college level.  
 As for the grandmothers actions. If true she could have been a bit of a controlling woman and having the boy nude contributed to her satisifaction in some way. Really nothing wrong with a boy being nude around his grandmother or mother as long as it gave him no concern. Might even have developed a healthy attitude for him. The grandmother could have been a closet nudist and considered it healthy for the boy to be comfortable with nudity although she did not practice it herself. One of those do as I say, not as I do type of things. In a remotely similar situation, I was, for the want of a better word, encouraged to swim nude by my mother, so I can somewhat identify with the situation.  
  The subject of the women discussing how the boy was developing could be believeable. Am not a woman so I dont know what they discuss but am sure they talk about how boys look as they are developing, especially someone in he family. For example, am sure we all heard discussions on a young girls development. How soon and how much her breast are developing. How she is developing that female flare to her hips and developing a shape to her legs. That sort of thing. Would seem to me women would comment on the development of a boy and it not involve anything sexual. Here again, my opinion is influenced by a bit of a similar situation where a woman held my erection and compaired it to her sons or nepheus. Was nothing sexual about it, discussion concerned my circumcision.  
  As for the woman growing up with her father and brothers swimming nude, that also is quite possible. There have always been at least a few families that practiced nudity at home. Can understand where the females would not be nude but the males were. Pretty much always been that way  
  So I am willing to guess that the story is at least loosely based on some facts.  LEO C
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #22 on: Sep 15th, 2010, 2:01pm »
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A subject that intrigues me.
This item on ebay seems to support the evidence that young men DID swim Nude among women wearing bathing suits back in the 1960's and 1960's
 
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Women-Suits-Nude-Male-Cartoon-Art-1968-Original-/1 50493934199?pt=UK_art_drawings_GL&hash=item230a233277
 
Jenny xx
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #23 on: Sep 21st, 2010, 12:57pm »
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on Sep 12th, 2010, 7:28am, Bobby_Bare wrote:
I don't know if this has been posted on this forum before, but I saw it recently on another forum.

Hey Bobby--
 
This topic is always a source of controversy here.  About 5 years ago I exchanged a couple of emails with the woman ("Deb") who posted the original message.  Her email account has been closed for some time so I can't invite her to comment here.
 
Through the magic of Google, here's a thread of comments sort of on this topic.  Many comments seem to support nude swimming, but not with females present.
 
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/features/5846928.html
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #24 on: Sep 22nd, 2010, 7:06am »
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Rick, do you have the link to the original post by Deb? Her account I posted here was also from a repost on a recent forum.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #25 on: Sep 22nd, 2010, 7:26am »
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on Sep 21st, 2010, 12:57pm, Rick176701 wrote:

Hey Bobby--
 
This topic is always a source of controversy here.  About 5 years ago I exchanged a couple of emails with the woman ("Deb") who posted the original message.  Her email account has been closed for some time so I can't invite her to comment here.
 
Through the magic of Google, here's a thread of comments sort of on this topic.  Many comments seem to support nude swimming, but not with females present.
 
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/features/5846928.html

 
It is obvious that females being present during nude male swimming was certainly not common. But I believe that it did actually take place in some  cases, usually with boys up to mid teens as mentioned by Deb. Remember that her mother was an Olympic swimmer when she started coaching these boys, so she was more than qualified to teach competitive swimming. This is why they probably made an exception with her to coach the boys.
I have also seen a post on another forum recently by someone who mentions that the Boys Clubs, mentioned in Deb's post, kept on swimming nude even after most Y's did away with this requirement. The reason is that unlike the Y's the Boys Clubs didn't go co-ed.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #26 on: Sep 22nd, 2010, 11:11am »
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To be honest, I have to say that I am leaning to the side that the original post Bobby found is more fantasy than real, likely with some core of truth in it.  
 
One thing that strikes me is actually just technical.  if the boy was well hung as described, swimming nude would result in added drag (I am being serious here) and not be good training for swimming competitively in a suit.  Think about how extreme the current body suits for men are just to incrementally reduce drag.  I know first hand that when I swim nude, I feel the drag of a big dick and balls, so it has to be a factor.  
 
Great story in any case!
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #27 on: Sep 22nd, 2010, 11:33am »
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I don't know (and I don't care nor I don't NEED to know)) if it's true or fantasy, but it's a good story.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #28 on: Sep 22nd, 2010, 6:24pm »
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So is this a new crop of persons who don't believe this ever happened?
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #29 on: Sep 22nd, 2010, 10:26pm »
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I, for one, do believe Bobby_Bare's 1st story!
 
A question for Rodney: Did your friend's mom say how the boys (both younger & older) reacted to being nude in the presence of a young female swim instructor? Were they embarrassed, resentful, or secure with her seeing all?
Also, did she think this could work at the time you spoke to her?
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #30 on: Sep 22nd, 2010, 11:42pm »
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on Sep 22nd, 2010, 6:24pm, PC wrote:
So is this a new crop of persons who don't believe this ever happened?

 
Geez PC, you have been here as long as I have, so how could I be a new crop?  I am not a doubter, go read my post.  My comment was about this particular story, which, Single D is not Bobby's, but a reference from another board.  Again, read the posts.  I hope it is all true, and as Bobby said, I loved the story.  I was just sharing my thoughts and musings with the board.  I think the idea of a 17 year old spending 6 hours a day nude with his grandmother, hard ons and his Mom watching is a bit fantastical.  
 
Just my thoughts.  Which I thought was the point of this board.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #31 on: Sep 23rd, 2010, 5:29pm »
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Assuming that the above posts are true-and I have no reason to believe that they are not-it sounds like the lady and her mom both have a good head on their shoulders, which is a rare for anyone these days. I wish I knew her email because I have a question or two I would like to ask her.  
 
Bobby, would it be possible to share where the link where you found her post? Thanks.  
 
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #32 on: Sep 23rd, 2010, 6:13pm »
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on Sep 21st, 2010, 12:57pm, Rick176701 wrote:

Hey Bobby--
 
This topic is always a source of controversy here.  About 5 years ago I exchanged a couple of emails with the woman ("Deb") who posted the original message.  Her email account has been closed for some time so I can't invite her to comment here.
 
Through the magic of Google, here's a thread of comments sort of on this topic.  Many comments seem to support nude swimming, but not with females present.
 
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/features/5846928.html

 
Thanks for the great article Rick - I've added it to my collection, which now, thanks to you, totals 262 .pdf news articles (not blogs or fictional stories) about boys swimming in the nude.
 
Interestingly, I found one article wherein the school board voted to stop the requirement that boys must swim nude at a junior high school as late as 1973 (see below link), and even then there were board members that objected to the ban.
 
Perhaps the best website I've ever read was a bulletin board on a public school district's website featuring alumni that went to a Fargo public school and the stories they remembered.   There were a number that talked about the good old days, and the issue about the boys having to swim nude.   Two of the ladies that posted admitted that the girls locker room door that led into the pool area had gaping cracks, and the girls would routinely watch the boys line up naked for roll call until one of the girls got caught and disciplined.  Unfortunately, I did not have the .pdf converter to convert that website into my archives, and now it's gone.
 
If anyone remembers that website, PLEASE post if they know where I can access it!
 
Many of the articles were downloaded from microfiche from the original newspapers.   I can't remember who spent that time, but it must have taken thousands of hours.
 
There's no questions that across the US the YMCA, Boys Club, high schools, colleges, public K-12 and local associations had swim class programs and would advertise  in the papers encouraging kids to learn to swim in their classes, and, they would routinely indicate the boys did not have to have swim suits - it was the norm, not the exception.
 
Here's some interesting reading:
 
http://depositfiles.com/files/i9ate9x0g
 
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #33 on: Sep 24th, 2010, 3:07am »
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According to me, the best story of the net concerning the fantasy of a young teen boy forced to swim naked and enduring ti be nude in front of women and girls is here :  
 
http://www.asstr.org/~nialos/hooked6.html
 
Humiliated at the YMCA:
Young Tommy is signed up by his mom for swimming lessons at the YMCA.  Unfortunately for the unsuspecting Tommy, the boys swim nude at the "Y" as was the custom in the 1960's. Poor Tommy even has a female instructor.  Humiliation, punishment and revenge are all part of this twisting story as it unfolds.
Humiliated at the YMCA Part 1
Humiliated at the YMCA Part 2
Humiliated at the YMCA Part 3
Humiliated at the YMCA Part 4
Humiliated at the YMCA Part 5
Humiliated at the YMCA Part 6 [left][/left]
 
Read please, enjoy, and let me know what do you think about.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #34 on: Sep 24th, 2010, 5:11am »
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Here is a similar account, but from a different angle, from another forum. Again I don't know if this has been shown on this site before, may have been. And again I have no way of telling if it is true or not.
   
 
 YMCA/Nude Swim Classes -  
They Knew Exactly What I Looked Like, Front and Back
 
I found the stories of boys swimming nude at the YMCA to be both entertaining and accurate, because I participated in a competitive swimming program in the 1960s at the YMCA. Our coach/instructor was a female in her 20s with a degree in physical education from a local college. She always wore a one-piece swimsuit during our practice sessions. Of course, our competitions were at other outside pools and we wore swimsuits for these occasions.
 
At our indoor YMCA pool, there was a balcony above the pool with long wooden benches for spectators. During our practice sessions, the YMCA rules allowed two groups of people to sit in the stands and watch. The first group, of course, was parents. As you might expect, it was mostly moms, but moms are moms.
 
The second group, however, was siblings of the swimmers. There would usually be a few brothers of the swimmers, but there always seemed to be LOTS of sisters, who seemed to go out of their way to make plans that allowed them to come along with brother to view the practices. Furthermore, there were many occasions where sister just had to bring a friend or two along, female of course, who were just hitching a ride to the Girl Scout meeting or some other activity that came after the swim practice. The YMCA was not strict about enforcing the balcony rules, so as long as the extra girls were with the parent of a swimmer, so be it.
 
Parents and siblings (and those accompanying siblings, seemingly always female of course) were allowed to sit in the balcony and watch until some time between ages 14 and 15. Let's put it this way. It was well after I had pubic hair and was "growing."
 
Needless to say, when these girls had occasion to talk to us afterward (never in the presence of parents, of course), there were lots of giggles and plenty of talk about wiggling penises and bare bottoms. On odd occasions when a boy was really not into the activities of the day and was horse playing or not following the coach's instructions, the boy's mom would sometimes come down to the pool, lead the naked boy upstairs by the ear, and give the boy a good over the knee spanking, of course with all the other spectators watching. Sisters and other girls loved that as well.
 
Why would moms bring sisters and other girls to our swim practice? The only possible answer is that modesty was a female issue only, and not a concern for boys. It was unquestionably a matter of totally different standards of modesty for boys and girls. As a rather bashful boy, I can assure you that it was a painful issue for me, but I loved the swimming and competition enough and my parents pushed swimming enough that I endured it. It is not something that you readily forget, however.
 
I would feel embarrassed if a girl in my school classes saw me at practice. It happened to me many times, and the girls were not at all reticent about describing the experience to their friends in school, of course where you could hear the whole discussion. I was reminded often by neighborhood and schoolgirls who had been there that they knew exactly what I looked like, front and back. Violated is an excellent word to describe the way I felt when I was teased by the girls who had observed me.
 
The girls relished the fact that they could see us completely unclothed and know that we would not entitled to a similar privilege. Due to the double standard of the day, girls would certainly not be seen by boys the way they saw us. The only consolation was that I was never the only boy being seen. There was comfort in numbers. It was very humiliating, however, to know that girls from your neighborhood and school classes had seen you naked. Most were experts at those knowing grins.
 
Although my two sisters, 1-1/2 and 3 years younger than me sometimes attended my practices with my mother, my mother would never consider allowing them to bring friends along. It was other moms and sisters who brought other girls along, some of whom I knew both from the neighborhood and school. It was these "others" who were among the boldest teasers. If one of my sisters' friends had come along, she would have felt very empowered and emboldened, and would have teased me incessantly. I would have had a hard time facing her.
 
I have two teenage children, one boy and one girl, and neither would believe that we accepted the inherent humiliation that went along with participation in YMCA swimming activities. At the time, I am sure the YMCA justified their policy by saying:
 
1) We only allowed family members (and accompanying guests) to view the practices, and somebody had to bring the boys since they were not old enough to drive, and
 
2) It’s only boys, anyway.
 
I am amazed today that the YMCA was not more sensitive to the issues of sexuality among early teens. Our coach never did anything remotely inappropriate, but it was still embarrassing to be nude in front of this cute mid 20's age girl, and allowing girls our age, older and younger to see us, especially in the shower, was the ultimate in humiliation. If I had not really loved the competitive swimming and had my parents not pushed it, I don't believe I would have tolerated this as long as I did.
 
 
 
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #35 on: Sep 24th, 2010, 7:33am »
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As I often say, I would have never agreed to a forced situation of CFNM, as a kid! Furthermore, I feel it is deplorable that this may have occurred, despite my CFNM acceptance of today.  
The boy/man must be accepting of the CFNM for it to truly work, for all who participate. Only then should CFNM activities be considered positive experiences.  
 
strapman,
I realize Bobby_Bare's posts were from another board. I only meant to refer to the ones which he posted.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #36 on: Sep 24th, 2010, 9:55am »
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For 'Reformed' and others who have asked for the link to Deb's post.
I have not posted the link because I have to ask that forum's moderator's permission first. Why? Because I think he is also a member of this forum, unless they have the same identical name, and may not want to reveal his personal forum here. It is a very recent, new forum I believe, and he started it by reposting several other posts for others to comment upon, including Deb's post.
So you won't get any information there from her since it is a repost. I don't know if there is her email there since it is not clear on my screen.
One of the moderators on this forum has said in a post above that he has her email and even corresponded with her, so he may be of more help. I have also asked him to tell us where the original post appeared, as you can see from my post following his, but he hasn't replied yet.
It is no problem for me to post the link where I copied her post, word for word by copy and paste, but as I said I have to ask the forum's moderator first.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #37 on: Sep 24th, 2010, 10:56am »
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Brad wrote:
 
Quote:
I'm not contending that it *never* happened, and I do believe some of those stories told by some of our members that they may have experienced it in, say, private swim lessons somewhere, skinny dipping in a river, etc.   But the notion that the policies of these/any institution allowing females to enter into an area where the boys were swimming nude is not plausible.

 
I suppose it may hinge on exactly what is meant by the "policy" of a Y, but I definitely took swimming classes two different times in the late 1940s at two Y's in the Boston area where the boys swam nude and the instructors/lifeguards were suited women. I can clearly and without equivocation recall these classes took place that way. These were not fill-in instructors either; they taught the entire series of classes. I have no way of knowing if there was a written policy supporting (or excluding) this practice. I vaguely recall that it had something to do with a carryover from there being too few men available during the war, but why I think that I cannot be sure. My mother was an extremely proficient swimmer and she was strongly in favor of my learning to swim well at an early age. One of the women instructors was a woman who was the mother of a friend of mine, but who was not in the class. I am pretty sure my mother knew her, and thought well of my learning from her. I am sure I had at least one discussion with my mother about the situation -- either she told me about it first or I mentioned it to her afterwards -- and she assured me it was all right. That somewhat implies that I felt uncomfortable about it, or some other boys did, or at a minimum I knew it odd or not the norm. (During the same years this was happening I was spending summers at my grandfather's summer house, right on the beach on Massachusett's South Shore, and wearing a bathing suit when I swam there in the ocean.)
 
I can also vaguely recall "adult" women being present in the pool or locker room area from time to time, possibly sometimes they were mothers of boys, or women from the front desk of the Y.  
 
Based on my experience, I think it entirely plausible that female instructors and perhaps some other personnel were not only allowed into the pool from time to time, but had agreed upon and likely paid jobs doing so at various Y's around the country, though I cannot even estimate how representative my experience was.  
 
On the other hand, I personally never saw spectators, sisters or other than possibly mothers of boys in the pool or locker room areas that I can recall. And I think I would recall it if there had been girls about my own age seeing me nude.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #38 on: Sep 24th, 2010, 1:01pm »
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Quote:
In spite of my own personal experiences, I happen to believe Allan's account, just as I believe what the school principal told me about her experiences teaching swimming to naked boys at the Y.

 
Thanks, Rodney! It get tedious having to defend one's own life experience.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #39 on: Sep 25th, 2010, 2:37am »
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I've probably been the most vocal on this board against criticizing any poster about their being truthful.   And when reading the accounts of Rodney and Allan, I believe them.
 
Ever since the situation of boy's swim classes was brought up 15 years ago when the Internet was young, I've been constantly looking for any account that can be substantiated wherein it was common practice of cross-gender monitoring of boys swim classes wherein the buys were required to be naked.  
 
Again, at the risk of being overly redundant, I'm not saying it never happened, and believe Rodney and Allan.    But of the 262 articles I posted about it, I never found a single instance.   I'd love nothing better than to find such a substantiated account as it would stop a lot of debating about this subject.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #40 on: Sep 25th, 2010, 9:50am »
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Brad, what do you mean by 'substantiated' articles?
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #41 on: Sep 25th, 2010, 10:05am »
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I remember reading a local newspaper article describing how young kids used to be taught to swim at the local high school back in the '60s. The kids were all naked. The instructor was male, but it did mention that on occasion, a female teacher may have been present. There was even a photo in the paper showing their bare butts from behind as they ran away. Since they were little kids just old enough to learn to swim on their own, nobody thought much of it back then. I wish I had cut out the article when I had the chance. I took swimming lessons at the same school, but I had a suit. Maybe I was too old at the time for nudity. So I know this sort of thing really did happen.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #42 on: Sep 25th, 2010, 5:50pm »
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Just thought I would throw my two cents into the pot.
 
I do not find it at all unusual that there are no articles about nude swimming at the Y or anywhere else for that matter. During the periods discussed by various posters (40s through 60s and maybe earlier) public nudity and things sexual were discouraged and discussion of them rare. However, I personally remember the rule of swimming nude at the YMCA. I never experienced it because I took swimming lessons at the local YWCA and later at the local country club where nudity was definately not allowed. I see no reason, given the generally known rules for nude swimming at the YMCA that reporters would not find this "newsworthy" and probably not a topic that would be acceptable for their readership. Additionally, I swam competitively on a local swim team, with less than stellar results, but never saw any of the results of our swim meets published in any paper other than the very small local weekly. So it does not surprise me that no news reports about Boy's Club or YMCA swim meets cannot be found or even that nudity would not be mentioned even if the results could be found.
 
 Remember, that the sexual activities of many of our leaders were not revealed in the press of the time because they did not deem it important or newsworthy. The information about sexual daliances didn't come to light until the news media became reobsessed with sesationalism as a way to sell their product.
 
It is so easy to say that something is not true and to call the person imparting the information, a liar, if one has not experienced the same things being described. I am also sure that many stories we read, especially in the "tabloids", are embelished or even made up to fit the audience, but each person must evaluate the information they receive and not necessarily jump to the conclusion that it is a lie, because one had never, ever, heard of such a thing or experienced it first hand.
 
Whatever the truth of the story of the Olympic swimmer grandmother, it is a great story. I, for one, find it as very possible.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #43 on: Sep 25th, 2010, 6:30pm »
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Quote:
It is so easy to say that something is not true and to call the person imparting the information, a liar, if one has not experienced the same things being described

 
 
Exactly.
The Y is a rather mundane place that reflected prevailing values.
 
There wouldn't be so many stories about nude swimming there if such things didn't happen.
 
People would make up highly charged erotic situations and they would virtually have to be in secret clubs or among children so young nobody paid much attention or thought it especially scandalous rather than in public institutions.
 
Some such situations, as teenaged babysitters bathing boys 10 years old, have been recounted and there's no reason to doubt them. But again, they took place in the context of a recognized institution, babysitting, and the parents told her to take care of him.
 
There are those things that can and do happen and those things that, however possible and even desirable, don't happen. Swimming at the Y and babysitting situations could and did -- perhaps do-- happen because they were in the context or average, normal life.
 
Things change. Today a white person isn't likely to casually insult a black person he sees in public or even shove him out of the way with little fear of legal or social repercussions. That could and did happen when I was a small child and I saw such things.  
There have been equally drastic if less morally and socially important changes in the rules of nudity.
Don't expect the same rules to be in place in another 60 years -- but you may not even notice them change.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #44 on: Sep 25th, 2010, 9:56pm »
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Good post, PC. And yours too, Maverick.
 
It is curious why Brad's search for proof has proved so empty of results. I do not doubt he has been diligent in his search, if not exhaustive.  
 
I think it quite plausible that the reason there were no "policy papers" for Brad to find (if that is what he was looking for) agreeing to women as fill-in or even permanent instructors could well be that women were not generally welcome in the YMCA, except perhaps in times of war and the following period, and then only grudgingly. But that of course did not stop women with children, especially boy children, finding the best situations for their offspring. And if swimming and learning how to do it well was the issue, I am sure my mother and many others would have overturned city hall in finding a venue. As I said in my earlier post, I have the vague recollection, an abiding sense, that women more or less actually ran the Y's I went to as a child. They had facilities there, some of them in quite short supply, like pools, and so that was that: the kids came first, so lets just get on with it. During the days  -- the only times I used the Y's I think -- I seldom saw an adult male there. Sometimes teen males, but that was it. Dads were off working I suppose and mothers took over the premises.
 
I am not sure if whoever really had control of Y's -- boards I assume -- liked or disliked this situation. But it was clearly the reality that I experienced. Men generally write rules about these types of things, in my experience. Women usually just go about making things work practically, especially when their children are involved. You need to swim nude to meet the rules? OK, swim nude. You need an instructor so your kids don't drown? OK, Mrs. Smith taught swimming, she can do it...I know her and her kids and she will make sure Allan doesn't kill himself jumping off the diving board. Etc.
 
And I also think that two notions that are near and dear to our current age -- women are sexual and children can be the subject of sexual exploitation -- were virtually non-existent in the public discourse back in the 40's through 60's. I consider myself a reasonably smart guy and I certainly did not hear much or most anything about either. And another notion that is probably still controversial or foreign today -- that children are sexual beings too, and could have repercussions (like CFNM?) from early experiences -- was about as acceptable an idea as communism. I could go on, but why belabor the point. Times have changed. Gradually, very gradually, but they did.  
 
I think Maverick's point about the press disregarding most everything about sexual matters -- like JFK's romances, etc. -- unless they were established formulaic material like starlets and mobsters, people outside the mainstream, goes a long way to explaining why there is so little or nothing about boys swimming nude at Y's with some women present. It was not news fit to print, or even recognize.
 
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #45 on: Sep 26th, 2010, 12:05am »
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For those that have been reading the articles I uploaded (see link above), the following is a Dear Abby column printed on Sept. 22, 1970.   Let me know if you want just this one news article uploaded -
 
Abby's response was more of a contemporary position, but the position of the writer's sister, brother-in-law and husband was that it was okay for boys to be required to swim nude around sisters and female cousins as having their genitals exposed to these girls would prevent the boys from "keeping secrets" from the girls.  
 
Imagine the implications of that kind of perspective back in those days.  For instance, if the mom walked in on the kids and they were playing doctor and the girls were inspecting the boy's penises, the mom might just laugh at it and let them continue their such play.  In today's world, the mom would probably take the girls to a therapist.


DEAR ABBY: My sister has a beach front summer place on a lake.- She also has two boys, ages 8 and 10, and two girls, 9 and 12. When the weather permits, she requires the boys play on the beach and in the water completely nude. However, she has the girls wear swim suits. We have two children, a boy 9 and a girl 11, who would enjoy a vacation at the lake, but I don't like this nude boy bit.   My husband says I am wrong.
 
When I discussed it with my sister, she said it was good to bring up boys without secrets from their sisters, and I should do the same. I half jokingly asked her if she thought Dear Abby would agree with her and she bet you would because you had a pliant sense of fundamental realities. I agreed to write to you and show her your answer. I also agreed to concur with it. What do you say?
 

 
The point is, 20 years before this article, it is conceivable that parents would be perfectly okay with their boys participating nude in swim classes with female instructors.
 
Perhaps I need to withdraw my thoughts it was implausible that CFNM swim classes occurred back in the day.  If I find anything else, I'll post.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #46 on: Sep 26th, 2010, 6:22am »
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Here is a post posted yesterday on the Topix forums. Is this a 'substantiated account' since it mentions the place and the year?
 
 "I can tell you for a fact that at the Lee Circle YMCA in New Orleans that I took swimming lessons as a 9 year old boy in 1963 and our instructor was a lady named Mrs Evlin Wingerter. She was a wonderful kind lady of about 50 years who had been my third grade teacher the year before. She told us that we should not be embarrased at not being dressed as it was the rules set up by the YMCA for the best way to preserve hygene and keep the clorine level of the water down. She also told us that she had two sons our age and had taught one to swim at the Y the year before. Her other son was among our class of 10 boys aged from 6 to 12 years old. She observed one boy about age 10 making an effort to keep himself covered with his hand. Mrs Wingerter explained to us as a group that we had nothing to be ashamed of being undressed in front her who was a mother or other members of our own sex. I never saw another lady at the Y pool after the two weeks we attended these lessons with this lady. (She of course was always in a one piece suit) She was very professional and frendly the entire time. She taught is how to swim well enough that I was able to save my own life a couple of years later at camp. All the boys were tested and fair swimmers by the time our lessons ended. My parents paid the $15.00 and it was well worth saving my life when a canoe I was in flipped over at the camp. She did her job as well or better than most men would have been able to perform making even the shyer boys feel very comfortable and skilled swimmers. "
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« Reply #47 on: Sep 26th, 2010, 8:17am »
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This is a milestone.   After many, many hours of research, I have FINALLY found absolute proof that:

 
1.  It was mandatory for these boys to swim completely nude in government-sponsored programs;
 
2.  In the program below, these boy could not be younger than 10 but could be as old as 15 years in age in Junior High,
 
3.   Female  swimming instructors supervised these classes, and,
 
4.  Parents of both gender would watch the boys - in one meet it was reported 650 family members showed.  

 
I began to research newspaper articles of a public swimming program sponsored by the  Department of Public Recreation in Sheboygan, Wisconsin in the 1950s.    This program sponsored swim classes for boys and girls up through high school.
 
Here's are two - the first was in 1952 and clearly states "boys swim in the nude":
 

 
Here is a 1959 article that reiterates that the boys are not to wear swim trunks during class:
 

 
 
Now, here's where the program gets interesting.  As with the other articles, it indicates towards the end that the girls will wear swimming suits, but "swimming suits are not required for boys".
 
However, it says that the classes will have four supervisors, two men for the morning classes, and a man and a woman - Miss Evelyn Hern, for the afternoon classes.    But if you're thinking Miss Hern will only be with the girls, you're mistaken.   The article discusses how it will be a *boys-only* program from Nov through Feb, then a girls-only program thereafter.  This meant that Miss Hern was there supervising the afternoon sessions for the boys, which was to be the Junior High boys swim class.  Although it indicated anyone that couldn't make the morning classes could be in her afternoon classes.   And I would guess a lot of the boys had excuses why the couldn't make the morning session and instead had to be in her class!  Wink
 

 
 
The following one is even more curious.    It mentions again that only the girls wear swimsuits, but then at the end discusses how families were invited one day to stand on the balconies right above the pool and watch the boys compete.   550 men and women showed to watch the boys.  It doesn't state if others were there, but with 550 people watching, you'd assume it was pretty much open, and you might think girls would have been part of such a large crowd.
 
I can't imagine how it felt to be a, say, 14 year old boy on that day swimming stark naked as hundreds of females watched me.
 
It should also be noted that this year a Miss Maradel Honold was in charge, although it doesn't provide evidence she was supervising the boys as it does in the previous one.
 

 
 
 
SOOOOO, Alan, you've been vindicated.    Hell, you may have been in one of these classes!
 
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #48 on: Sep 26th, 2010, 8:26am »
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What I find amusing and 'diplomatic' about this newspaper article is that it doesn't say that the boys have to swim nude, but simply "The girls are supplied with swimsuits", which obviously implies that the boys don't need swimsuits.
What is missing from this newspaper article after describing the boys and girls swimming progress in detail are photos to illustrate it. I'm sure there would have been photographers beside the journalists for this popular event.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #49 on: Sep 26th, 2010, 9:34am »
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on Sep 26th, 2010, 8:26am, Bobby_Bare wrote:
What I find amusing and 'diplomatic' about this newspaper article is that it doesn't say that the boys have to swim nude, but simply "The girls are supplied with swimsuits", which obviously implies that the boys don't need swimsuits.
What is missing from this newspaper article after describing the boys and girls swimming progress in detail are photos to illustrate it. I'm sure there would have been photographers beside the journalists for this popular event.

 
I re-edited it.   Here are some vintage photos.
 

 

 

 

 

 

 
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #50 on: Sep 26th, 2010, 9:58am »
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From the final Sheboygan Press article it clearly states that boys and girls swam together and the boys need only bring a towel, the girl are supplied suits!
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #51 on: Sep 26th, 2010, 10:26am »
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Can anyone read the captions that accompany the pictures?
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #52 on: Sep 26th, 2010, 12:35pm »
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Quote:
SOOOOO, Alan, you've been vindicated.    Hell, you may have been in one of these classes!

 
Good finds, Brad! Yes, now we have something to point to in black and white that confirms my own boyhood experiences...I feel younger already...
 
It was evocative to read the stories for their style as well as the content. "Miss X" and "Miss Y" and "Mrs. Z" -- marital status clearly specified. Plus a focus on news of a mundane and everyday variety. No sensationalism for them! But wouldn't they be surprised to know that their innocuous little news items, resplendent with detail, would become the centers of attention fifty/sixty years later of people who are fascinated by a phenomenon, CFNM, that some people (mistakenly) now think of as a sexual fetish! Times do change, people.
 
I wasn't in any of those classes, because I grew up in New England, but that little news note at the bottom of the last clip, datelined Boston, about the 101-year old seamstress, might be relevant.  I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out she ran the front desk at my Y, and patrolled the locker room from time to time looking for rough-housers who needed their ears pinched!
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #53 on: Sep 26th, 2010, 2:05pm »
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on Sep 26th, 2010, 9:58am, freeed54 wrote:
From the final Sheboygan Press article it clearly states that boys and girls swam together and the boys need only bring a towel, the girl are supplied suits!

 
You are correct. Although it doesn't state specifically that the classes were mixed it gives the number of boys and girls who attended together for the opening days of the lessons and gives the average daily attendance for both boys and girls together, which was about even. And of course it clearly states that boys need only take a towel and swim nude while the girls are supplied with swimsuits. So much for gender equality. Grin
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #54 on: Sep 26th, 2010, 4:36pm »
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Here's another good find.   Same newspaper, but earlier than the above articles.   At that time, the boys classes included 9th graders.  And assuming at least a few of these boys may have been held back a grade and/or may be more developed, it is unquestionable that at least some of these boys had a fully matured cock and balls w/ full pubic hair.
 
Although the article is dated, you can still see that some of these girls looked sexy, and should there have been any accidental contact between the classes, it would have made for an interesting sexual dynamic.
 
The other thing interesting about this article is that the newspaper felt very comfortable posting the photos of the boys in the nude without the boys permission.    Thus, if they can be shown in the newspapers, it is plausible mothers and female teaches would be allowed in the pool area.
 

 
 
In the next article under "Parents Are Enthusiastic", it addresses something mentioned in a previous article I posted - at the end of the swim course, there's a visiting day and families are invited to watch the boys.    
 
Parents are invited to see first hand what has been accomplished during the final class periods on Saturday, June 26, designated as visiting days.
 
The article indicates that although the girls will wear swimsuits, the boys will swim the entire time "unhampered by a suit"
 

 
 
 
Lastly, in a different newspaper, it indicates that the boys will benefit from a Red Cross Certificate indicating they can swim.  The two giving the boys the test are two females, Miss Kitty Harder (no, that pun's too easy) and Miss Marjorie Stephen.
 
And of course, suits are not provided the boys:
 

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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #55 on: Sep 26th, 2010, 6:48pm »
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Sorry to be a pain but on Brad's post #51 the 2nd and 3rd articles are not showing. Instead I'm getting the dredded red X.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #56 on: Sep 26th, 2010, 8:46pm »
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I'm getting the dredded red x as well.  Even so, these recent finds, for me, are the holy grail of online cfnm finds thus far (not that I doubted the accounts told my Allan_C. and a few other older posters on this board).  These articles just line up so nicely with what Allan and others have been saying for years.  A milestone indeed.  Thanks to Brad for the finds and to Allan and others who have shared and re-shared and shared again their personal experiences!  It has all really come together here.    on Sep 26th, 2010, 6:48pm, Reformed1 wrote:
Sorry to be a pain but on Brad's post #51 the 2nd and 3rd articles are not showing. Instead I'm getting the dredded red X.

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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #57 on: Sep 26th, 2010, 8:55pm »
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Great posts by Brad!  
Although my father never experienced nude swimming, with female instructors, lifeguards or spectators present, I did believe it happened on occasion, in some other parts of the country. Now we have proof that it did happen in Wisconsin! Rochester may not have females present, but I am surprised that no boy objected to his photo and name appearing in the newspaper. I am also amazed that no one complained to the paper!
 
OFF TOPIC
Tomorrow is my last day at my N.Y. State Agency; I am retiring. I am accepting 2 incentives, which will give me 4 years,  & 10 months over my actual time of service. Plus, the prevailing attitude in Albany is not state worker friendly.
As I am too young to do nothing, I will seek at least part time work, which will augment my State Pension.  
Best wishes to anyone else who is about to retire!
 
Donald
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #58 on: Sep 26th, 2010, 11:21pm »
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on Sep 26th, 2010, 8:55pm, SingleDonald wrote:
Great posts by Brad!  
Although my father never experienced nude swimming, with female instructors, lifeguards or spectators present, I did believe it happened on occasion, in some other parts of the country. Now we have proof that it did happen in Wisconsin! Rochester may not have females present, but I am surprised that no boy objected to his photo and name appearing in the newspaper. I am also amazed that no one complained to the paper!
 
OFF TOPIC
Tomorrow is my last day at my N.Y. State Agency; I am retiring. I am accepting 2 incentives, which will give me 4 years,  & 10 months over my actual time of service. Plus, the prevailing attitude in Albany is not state worker friendly.
As I am too young to do nothing, I will seek at least part time work, which will augment my State Pension.  
Best wishes to anyone else who is about to retire!
 
Donald

 
Way to go!  Congratulations SD!
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #59 on: Sep 27th, 2010, 2:32am »
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Quote:
Lastly, in a different newspaper, it indicates that the boys will benefit from a Red Cross Certificate indicating they can swim.  The two giving the boys the test are two females, Miss Kitty Harder (no, that pun's too easy) and Miss Marjorie Stephen.
 
And of course, suits are not provided the boys:

 
Brad, the second and youngest of my female instructors, an attractive woman in her 20s (I think) was the one who certified me for my Junior Lifesaving certificate, a very proud achievement in my young swimming career. She was an excellent swimmer, and looked great in a tank suit, too. Those of us who got it had to, among other things, demonstrate that we could "save" a fellow swimmer by swimming toward "shore" with one arm around his neck, thereby dragging his immobile ("lifeless" as it were) body through the water. I was so good at it that she demonstrated the proper technique to the class by dragging my immobile, but hardly lifeless, body through the water, she suited, me nude, for the length of the pool.
 
Ah, how times have changed...
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #60 on: Sep 27th, 2010, 2:33am »
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Congrats, Donald.  
 
You will love being retired!
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #61 on: Sep 27th, 2010, 2:50am »
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on Sep 27th, 2010, 2:32am, Allan_C. wrote:

 
Brad, the second and youngest of my female instructors, an attractive woman in her 20s (I think) was the one who certified me for my Junior Lifesaving certificate, a very proud achievement in my young swimming career. She was an excellent swimmer, and looked great in a tank suit, too. Those of us who got it had to, among other things, demonstrate that we could "save" a fellow swimmer by swimming toward "shore" with one arm around his neck, thereby dragging his immobile ("lifeless" as it were) body through the water. I was so good at it that she demonstrated the proper technique to the class by dragging my immobile, but hardly lifeless, body through the water, she suited, me nude, for the length of the pool.
 
Ah, how times have changed...

 
What a great experience that must have been.   Even at a younger age, I could not have been naked and embraced with such a mermaid without flying full mast.
 
I do have a question-
 
The articles I discovered renewed my interest in this subject and I began to research more.   One thing I noticed is that during the 1950s, the YMCA had programs for boys up to 16 in age.   The ads indicated the boys were not allowed to wear swimsuits.
 
But I also noticed that during this period, the last exercise class was typically for giving out awards/certificates like the one you got.   The ads also state that mothers and fathers were allowed to attend the events.
 
Do you ever recall a "visitation" or "awards" day wherein the boys swam nude while a crowd of people watched?
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #62 on: Sep 27th, 2010, 6:26am »
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I wonder if the famous "democratic" picture of teenagers under the shower proves that boys swam naked : that proves boys showednaked, but for swimming ?
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #63 on: Sep 27th, 2010, 6:27am »
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on Sep 27th, 2010, 2:32am, Allan_C. wrote:

 
Brad, the second and youngest of my female instructors, an attractive woman in her 20s (I think) was the one who certified me for my Junior Lifesaving certificate, a very proud achievement in my young swimming career. She was an excellent swimmer, and looked great in a tank suit, too. Those of us who got it had to, among other things, demonstrate that we could "save" a fellow swimmer by swimming toward "shore" with one arm around his neck, thereby dragging his immobile ("lifeless" as it were) body through the water. I was so good at it that she demonstrated the proper technique to the class by dragging my immobile, but hardly lifeless, body through the water, she suited, me nude, for the length of the pool.
 
Ah, how times have changed...

 
I bet you did it with periscope up all the way.  Grin
How old were you on this 'final exam' anyway?
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #64 on: Sep 27th, 2010, 6:38am »
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As much as I may conceive a young  (or old) women coaching little boys before puberty, so it is difficult to imagine a team of pubescent boys, with pubic hair and developped genitalia coached by a female instructor, with the obvious risk to ignite a sexual arousal Undecided
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #65 on: Sep 27th, 2010, 10:55am »
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on Sep 24th, 2010, 9:55am, Bobby_Bare wrote:
For 'Reformed' and others who have asked for the link to Deb's post.
I have not posted the link because I have to ask that forum's moderator's permission first. Why? Because I think he is also a member of this forum, unless they have the same identical name, and may not want to reveal his personal forum here.
 
...
 
One of the moderators on this forum has said in a post above that he has her email and even corresponded with her, so he may be of more help. I have also asked him to tell us where the original post appeared, as you can see from my post following his, but he hasn't replied yet.
 

Bobby:  I missed your message requesting the link to Deb's story.  It might have been in a Yahoo! group or a voy forum.  About the email address of "Deb," I stated very clearly that her email account was closed.
 
If I had the link, I would have posted it, as I always do.  I frankly don't understand your line of reasoning about getting permission for posting the link to the blog or web site where you found the story re-posted.  I believe your protectiveness is somewhat misguided as most bloggers and/or web site publishers thrive on traffic to their web sites.  This is the world wide web, not the private web.  I think people just like to see the source material.
 
If you're referring to "ogden_edsl", I'm pretty sure he'd be happy to get any additional traffic to his blog.  I used to have the URL, but I can not find it.
 
Ogden_edsl is one of the most active archivists of CFNM and skinny dipping, etc. of a non-sexual nature.
 
Best.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #66 on: Sep 27th, 2010, 11:02am »
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on Sep 27th, 2010, 10:55am, Rick176701 wrote:

...
If I had the link, I would have posted it, as I always do.

 
Bingo!
 
http://forums.delphiforums.com/nudity1/messages/?msg=37.1
 
And another frequent contributor is Yellow Fever.  Here is his Forum:
 
http://forums.delphiforums.com/YellowFever3
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #67 on: Sep 27th, 2010, 11:48am »
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Actually I hesitated about showing the link because Ogden didn't comment anything on this thread about this post which appeared on his own forum, so maybe there was a reason why he wouldn't want the link to appear. I just played it cautiasly in case he would be upset. But as you can see it is also a repost of the same post.
I will try to research and see if I can find her original post, unless Ogden himself can give us some information.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #68 on: Sep 27th, 2010, 12:54pm »
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on Sep 27th, 2010, 11:48am, Bobby_Bare wrote:
Actually I hesitated about showing the link because Ogden didn't comment anything on this thread about this post which appeared on his own forum, so maybe there was a reason why he wouldn't want the link to appear. I just played it cautiasly in case he would be upset. But as you can see it is also a repost of the same post.
I will try to research and see if I can find her original post, unless Ogden himself can give us some information.

Dude, I'm all for respecting people's privacy on the web, but he created a public web site for the world to see, and just as I missed your request for more info, it's very possible o_e is not reading this thread.
 
Just sayin'.
 
Best wishes.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #69 on: Sep 27th, 2010, 1:06pm »
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Quote:
Do you ever recall a "visitation" or "awards" day wherein the boys swam nude while a crowd of people watched?

 
Brad, I have wracked my brain on that subject, because it comes up a lot on this topic. The answer is no, I do not recall such a visitation. In fact I only recall one of the pools (I went to at least three different Y's at various times) even having a spectator or 'bleachers' area and it wasn't very big. And another pool I think had a window on the second floor as a sort of observation area -- why it was there, I don't really know -- but I don't recall ever seeing anyone in it. I can recall, vaguely, other adult women beyond the instructors, in either the pool area or more likely the locker/shower areas, but they were almost certainly women who worked the front desk or mothers of boys. But even those happened a very few times, best I can remember.
 
Quote:
I bet you did it with periscope up all the way.  Grin
How old were you on this 'final exam' anyway?

 
BobbyB, I was either 10 or 11. I do recall that I started to masturbate at age 11, early for a boy I later learned, and would have had pubic hair then I guess, but don't recall if I did when this took place. At least one other boy was in puberty I recall. He had red hair and was older, and as good or a better swimmer than I was. No, I don't believe I was up periscope during that swim. It is odd to say now, but the CFNM part of it was not particularly sexual to me then. I suppose because I was used to it. But that girl's ass was. And the fact that she had me around my neck, my back rubbing against one breast as she swam. She had a shelf-like ass and her tank suit fit her extremely well. It may well have been the first time I ever saw or remembered at least an ass protruding backwards like a shelf on any otherwise slim, short-legged girl. I can still picture it, but I was very new to conscious sexual feelings back then. Whereas the earlier woman instructor, the mother of a boy I knew and whom I am pretty sure my mother knew, was middle-aged and wore a rather formless, matronly suit.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #70 on: Sep 28th, 2010, 7:42am »
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on Sep 27th, 2010, 6:38am, henri wrote:
As much as I may conceive a young  (or old) women coaching little boys before puberty, so it is difficult to imagine a team of pubescent boys, with pubic hair and developped genitalia coached by a female instructor, with the obvious risk to ignite a sexual arousal Undecided

 
Individual boys and girls alike mature at slightly different rates. The rules, however, have to be based on their age or grade level since examining everybody for signs of maturation would have to be done weekly by a doctor and would entail removing some to separate classes, making people self-conscious who weren't otherwise.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #71 on: Sep 28th, 2010, 10:38am »
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It's interesting I remember Vivian West remarking on her times as a swim coach at a private boarding school in England in the 1970's where the senior lads took swimming in the Nude.
 
If my memory serves me well she was posting in the late 1990's but got flamed for being a liar and some kind of pervert. Over ten years late...but it seems like her recollections were not fiction at all. How sad that is to know that now.  Sad
Jenny xx
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #72 on: Sep 28th, 2010, 12:21pm »
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Quote:
It's interesting I remember Vivian West remarking on her times as a swim coach at a private boarding school in England in the 1970's where the senior lads took swimming in the Nude.
 
If my memory serves me well she was posting in the late 1990's but got flamed for being a liar and some kind of pervert. Over ten years late...but it seems like her recollections were not fiction at all. How sad that is to know that now.  Sad
Jenny xx

 
Yes, it is sad, Jenny. I have to say I have found it absolutely incredible how unwilling some people have been about not believing this type of thing. I don't know what it is, but I think there is something about a situation where the boys or men are swimming nude and the clothed women or girls are viewing them that many people simply do not want to believe happened. I don't know why it is so, but it seems to challenge something deeply held by them. Is it too good to be true, or too bad? Why do some find it so upsetting? Is it because the woman has such a prolonged period of completely sanctioned viewing of the naked males, rather than just sneak peeks or accidents? (And seeing their behavior from my perspective has made me wonder if I have been doing the same sort of thing -- fastidiously maintaining a sort of conceptual intransigence -- in other areas. In fact, I probably have, but I just don't know which areas.)
 
It has also made me consider something else. It so happens that I tend to believe that CFNM is a sort of natural thing, with definable sociobiological advantages to both male and females. (Which I have outlined in other posts.) If that is so, then the question is reversed -- what is it that can cause most people (nowadays) to think it is so wrong, so unlikely, virtually a sexual fetish? I do not know the answer to that question, but whatever it is, it takes a lot of glue to make an "unnatural" idea stick -- that it is immoral and wrong, deeply taboo, etc., for men to be naked in front of clothed women -- so it also takes a lot of info to make it unstuck.  
 
And it also explains why women who participated in such activities, as lifeguards and instructors and such, would be reticent to come forward and talk about it. You want the world to be flat and will burn me at the stake if I say it isn't? OK, the world is flat.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #73 on: Sep 28th, 2010, 4:52pm »
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Hi Rodney,
 
I'm guessing the person who started that thread had another thread that got badly flamed.  It's definitely a very odd message being so out of context.
 
Best wishes.
 
Rick
on Sep 27th, 2010, 4:38pm, Rodney wrote:

...
 
I also confess I do not understand the post on that forum titled "misterpoll forum unequal nudity." What does the message have to do with the title?

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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #74 on: Sep 28th, 2010, 6:10pm »
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Here is an intersting post from a discussion going on at Topix from a man who claims that his school team competed nude in front of mixed specatators.
 
"Q - Ted, don't tell me that swim meets were in the nude too? And in front of mixed spectators? Did I read correctly?
Most people today would not believe that this ever happened, though I keep an open mind about it and say that it could have happened in some places."
 
"A - Meets at our school, where my Dad was coach, were always suit optional for our team and the competition. Dad believed, correctly so, the race times were always better when nude rather than suited. Our team was always nude as I recall. Meets at other schools, varied as to whether suits were required or not - regional/state competitions were suited. As we always practiced nude and practices were open to those wished to stop by and watch - we were perfectly comfortable competing that way. Again, am sure standards varied widely by region. "
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #75 on: Sep 28th, 2010, 8:11pm »
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About "visitation" day...I'm uploading two newspaper articles.  
 
One is dated 1941 from the Wisconsin State Journal promoting the YMCA swim classes for boys up to 14 years in age.   It states:
 
"All boys registered for instruction are requested to bring their own towels to each of the classes. Swimming trunks or suits will not be used.   Parents are invited to attend the special exhibition period Saturday afternoon, April 26. Boys will be awarded YMCA buttons and certificates if they pass a standardized YMCA swimming test at that time."
 
The second is from a 1960 Waterloo, Iowa newspaper also promoting the YMCA swim classes for boys.   It *appears* this one includes boys up through high school.   First is this statement:
 
"The final climax of our Summer Swim Program gives the parents a chance to see what their boy has learned by attending one of several "Parents Night/Swimming Demonstrations." held at the YMCA."
 
Immediately below this statement it says (in bold) :
 
"BATHING SUITS— We do not encourage the use of bathing suits, but if a boy wishes to wear one, he may."
 
Here's a folder containing the two newspaper pages unaltered:
 
http://depositfiles.com/files/vcpv6mgwt
 
Some of these articles, all of which pertain to boys well into their teens, state "boys are not allowed to wear swim suits", then, they talk about "parents visitation on the last exercise day" etc. in the same article.    
 
I'm uploading these for you all to read yourself and draw your own conclusions.    Does this mean that they have special rules for the last exercise day that contradicts their "hygienic" rule disallowing swim suits for boys for that one night?  If so, why have such a rule at all?
 
Alternatively, does this mean that on that night women sit there and watch dozens and dozens of stark naked 14+ year old boys show their stuff?   Does it mean sisters can come?    
 
I don't know, wasn't there...so that's why I'm posting all this stuff.
 
What do you guys think?
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #76 on: Sep 28th, 2010, 9:08pm »
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on Sep 28th, 2010, 8:11pm, Brad wrote:
About "visitation" day...I'm uploading two newspaper articles.  
 
One is dated 1941 from the Wisconsin State Journal promoting the YMCA swim classes for boys up to 14 years in age.   It states:
 
"All boys registered for instruction are requested to bring their own towels to each of the classes. Swimming trunks or suits will not be used.   Parents are invited to attend the special exhibition period Saturday afternoon, April 26. Boys will be awarded YMCA buttons and certificates if they pass a standardized YMCA swimming test at that time."
 
The second is from a 1960 Waterloo, Iowa newspaper also promoting the YMCA swim classes for boys.   It *appears* this one includes boys up through high school.   First is this statement:
 
"The final climax of our Summer Swim Program gives the parents a chance to see what their boy has learned by attending one of several "Parents Night/Swimming Demonstrations." held at the YMCA."
 
Immediately below this statement it says (in bold) :
 
"BATHING SUITS— We do not encourage the use of bathing suits, but if a boy wishes to wear one, he may."
 
Here's a folder containing the two newspaper pages unaltered:
 
http://depositfiles.com/files/vcpv6mgwt
 
Some of these articles, all of which pertain to boys well into their teens, state "boys are not allowed to wear swim suits", then, they talk about "parents visitation on the last exercise day" etc. in the same article.    
 
I'm uploading these for you all to read yourself and draw your own conclusions.    Does this mean that they have special rules for the last exercise day that contradicts their "hygienic" rule disallowing swim suits for boys for that one night?  If so, why have such a rule at all?
 
Alternatively, does this mean that on that night women sit there and watch dozens and dozens of stark naked 14+ year old boys show their stuff?   Does it mean sisters can come?    
 
I don't know, wasn't there...so that's why I'm posting all this stuff.
 
What do you guys think?
 
 
 
 
 
 

 
There isn't any doubt whatsoever that parents at the very least, and possibly siblings attended while the boys swam naked. In view of the way it was then I cannot imagine that sisters would be denied entry if the parents took them along. If there were any reservations about it they would be minimal and any explanation would suffice such as "we can't find a sitter".  
 
The eagerness to have the boys naked is surprising, but it very obvious that they WANTED the boys naked to swim for the public.
 
There is definitely a suppressed sexuality to this, just as I stated in the other thread about my own experience, it is unspoken and sexual.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #77 on: Sep 29th, 2010, 12:56pm »
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I sorry I don't wish to be a killjoy but I read through all of the articles supplied twice and I cannot find where it says that female instructors supervised boys in the nude.  The articles do say that boys swim in the nude and that the girls wear suits.  There are places where the female instructors are named.  The articles do say that boys and girls have different swimming times.  It is perfectly possible that the female instructors supervised females and males supervised males.  There is one article that says boys swim in the nude and that parents are encouraged to come and see their child's progress.  That surprises me but that is what the article says.  It is possible that the boys wore suits on that day but the article does not mention that.  It is extremely unlikely if female instructors were present during free learn to swim weeks at the YMCA that boys wore suits.  Please quote me the actual words in the article prove the female instructors were present that supervising boys during a female swim week so that I can see for myself.
 
I remember lots of free learn to swim weeks at the YMCA but there were never any female instructors.  I suppose it is possible that female instructors were used but I need to see it actually in the article.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #78 on: Sep 29th, 2010, 1:39pm »
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on Sep 29th, 2010, 12:56pm, Youngren wrote:
I sorry I don't wish to be a killjoy but I read through all of the articles supplied twice and I cannot find where it says that female instructors supervised boys in the nude.  The articles do say that boys swim in the nude and that the girls wear suits.  There are places where the female instructors are named.  The articles do say that boys and girls have different swimming times.  It is perfectly possible that the female instructors supervised females and males supervised males.  There is one article that says boys swim in the nude and that parents are encouraged to come and see their child's progress.  That surprises me but that is what the article says.  It is possible that the boys wore suits on that day but the article does not mention that.  It is extremely unlikely if female instructors were present during free learn to swim weeks at the YMCA that boys wore suits.  Please quote me the actual words in the article prove the female instructors were present that supervising boys during a female swim week so that I can see for myself.
 
I remember lots of free learn to swim weeks at the YMCA but there were never any female instructors.  I suppose it is possible that female instructors were used but I need to see it actually in the article.  

 
Several articles for the Sheboygan classes indicated that given the large number of boys enrolling each year, multiple instructors would be overseeing each class to assure proper attention for safety, particularly since the boys can't swim.  
 
The Sheboygan Nov., 1951 article above indicates that for the first three months it would be boys-only classes all day long, then the three months thereafter, girls-only all day long.   The article specifically states boys will not wear swim suits during the swim course.    It then indicates that 4 instructors would split the work load - 2 for the morning, 2 for the afternoon.   One of the two swim instructors for the afternoon classes was a female, Ms. Evelyn Hern.  Unfortunately, I don't think the article said "and Ms. Hern will have the delightful pleasure of seeing all the boys' peepees"...but I might be wrong, I'll go look.
 
It is difficult to find *any* article wherein it identifies which instructor will teach which class, and the one above was one of the very few.  No, you're not going to find "female instructors will be allowed to instruct the boys when they are naked" in any of the articles.  I realize that would be definitive proof - but that would never be printed.  
 
However, the fact that the local Sheboygan newspapers would print an article telling the world the boys swim naked, then, showing a *large* photo of these boys completely nude for everyone to see, and if that is not enough...identifying by name and address the boy that is standing there and can clearly be seen in detail in the photo on the diving board stark naked from head to foot... is very telling of the culture at that time.   Bear in mind, these ain't toddlers.   That specific swim class had boys up through the 9th grade (ergo, up to 16 years in age.)  
 
So if it was acceptable showing these boys naked in large photos on the largest paper circulated in the community for all to see (including girls that were in the same classes as these boys), why would they get prudish about an adult female instructor seeing the same thing the newspapers felt was acceptable for *everyone* in the community to see?  
 
After reading dozens of articles that indicate a) the boys are not allowed to wear swimsuits during the course, and b) parents are allowed to attend the last swim exercise day, it is easier to surmise that the boys swam nude during family visitation days than the contrary.   I never found any clarification anywhere that said "on visitation days, boys will need to wear a swim suit".   And in one of the articles it mentioned that hundreds of parents would show for these final day exercises.  So, if it were acceptable that hundreds of women from the community could attend the final day of exercise, why would they not all the female swim instructor to do the same?
 
So let's put it back to you, rather than us having to prove to you the affirmative, Youngren, why don't you do a comparable amount of research and  prove to us otherwise (from an equally researched perspective) that is, for all of these situations, find an article that states "at no time will females be allowed in the presence of the boys swim classes".  
 
If you can't, then, using your logic, should we conclude women *were* allowed to be present because you can't find an article that proves otherwise?
 
The thing is, we must draw a conclusion based upon the preponderance of evidence as opposed to beyond a reasonable doubt (civil burden of proof, not criminal, eh counselor?)
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #79 on: Sep 29th, 2010, 1:48pm »
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Quote:
So let's put it back to you, rather than us having to prove to you the affirmative, Youngren, why don't do a comparable amount of research and prove to us otherwise, that is, for all of these situations, can you find an article that states "at no time will females be allowed in the presence of the boys swim classes".    If you can't, then, using your logic, can we conclude women *were* allowed to be present because you can't find an article that proves otherwise?
 
The thing is, we must draw a conclusion based upon the preponderance of evidence as opposed to beyond a reasonable doubt (civil burden of proof, not criminal, eh counselor?)

 
Right on, Brad!
 
Ball is in your court, Youngren.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #80 on: Sep 29th, 2010, 3:06pm »
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Thought I would throw my two cents in here. I suspect the root of your disbelief lies in your own belief system. Brad's posts are pretty convincing that naked boys were not such a societal taboo at that time. How else can you explain the pictures of them in a newspaper or Abby's response about girls swimming with naked boys? Apparently is was not a remarkable thing at that time.  
 
One of the myths (beliefs) in our society is that men are essentially pologamist and women are essentially monogamist. However if one studies anthropology, matriacial societies were pologamist while our present patricarical society is monogamous. Many would argue that couldn't possibly be true. But a matriacial society is a reflection of women's ideas while a patricarical  society is a reflection of men's ideas.  
 
One essential point of this is in a matriacial  society, one knows who the mother is but not the father. In a patricarical society, one knows who the mother is and in most cases who the father is. It is men's ideas that foster this belief that people should be monogamous. What is real here?
 
Great work, Brad!
 
 
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #81 on: Sep 29th, 2010, 5:46pm »
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Wasn't there a "Dear Abby" article posted here  yesterday? If so where can I find it?
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #82 on: Sep 29th, 2010, 6:15pm »
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I want to ask only a question about the first message of Brad.
 
He said that it is indicated in some articles of newspapers that " the girls will wear swimming suits but swimming suits are not required for boys "
 
Why it is not said that boys must swim in the nude, which would be more simple ?
 
When it is written that boys are not required to wear swimming suits, it seems to me that it is different, I presume that it means that a boy has the choice to wear or not a swimming suit  according what he prefers, he is not forced to be nude  by a rule?
 
 "Now, here's where the program gets interesting.  As with the other articles, it indicates towards the end that the girls will wear swimming suits, but "swimming suits are not required for boys".
 
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #83 on: Sep 29th, 2010, 7:13pm »
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on Sep 29th, 2010, 5:46pm, Reformed1 wrote:
Wasn't there a "Dear Abby" article posted here  yesterday? If so where can I find it?

Never mind. Found it at another thread. Sorry.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #84 on: Sep 30th, 2010, 1:46am »
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on Sep 29th, 2010, 6:15pm, easter_man_10 wrote:
I want to ask only a question about the first message of Brad.
 
He said that it is indicated in some articles of newspapers that " the girls will wear swimming suits but swimming suits are not required for boys "
 
Why it is not said that boys must swim in the nude, which would be more simple ?
 
When it is written that boys are not required to wear swimming suits, it seems to me that it is different, I presume that it means that a boy has the choice to wear or not a swimming suit  according what he prefers, he is not forced to be nude  by a rule?
 
 "Now, here's where the program gets interesting.  As with the other articles, it indicates towards the end that the girls will wear swimming suits, but "swimming suits are not required for boys".
 the  boys are not required to swim in a swim suit  

 
It all meant the same thing - boys swam nude.   Some of the articles did use terms like "boys will swim nude", but it all meant the same.
 
One of the articles dealt with a 1961 debate within the board of education of the Menesha school district.  The argument was modesty of the boys versus the practicality of wearing suits.   Part of the review process included Menesha surveying 31 public schools with pools.  Of them, 20 required the boys to be nude, and the remainder allowed suits because either 1) the pool was outdoors, or 2) the girls locker room opened onto the pool.   If that state was typical, then you can surmise that in 1961, 2/3rds of all school swimming programs in the USA required the boys to be nude.
 
The board ruled to reject allowing boys to wear suits.   Although the reasons were lint in the filters, problems of handling suits and the "creation of a false sense of modesty" (argument being the boys were already showering together), the truth was actually that it would cost the school $3,000 for the new suits.    
 
Thus, the REAL reason boys didn't wear suits - money.   They saved money by not having the boys wear suits, no cleaning equipment costs, etc.   But isn't it always money?
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #85 on: Sep 30th, 2010, 2:02am »
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on Sep 29th, 2010, 3:06pm, PassionGuy wrote:
Thought I would throw my two cents in here. I suspect the root of your disbelief lies in your own belief system. Brad's posts are pretty convincing that naked boys were not such a societal taboo at that time. How else can you explain the pictures of them in a newspaper or Abby's response about girls swimming with naked boys? Apparently is was not a remarkable thing at that time.  
 
One of the myths (beliefs) in our society is that men are essentially pologamist and women are essentially monogamist. However if one studies anthropology, matriacial societies were pologamist while our present patricarical society is monogamous. Many would argue that couldn't possibly be true. But a matriacial society is a reflection of women's ideas while a patricarical  society is a reflection of men's ideas.  
 
One essential point of this is in a matriacial  society, one knows who the mother is but not the father. In a patricarical society, one knows who the mother is and in most cases who the father is. It is men's ideas that foster this belief that people should be monogamous. What is real here?
 
Great work, Brad!
 

 
So, where can I join this matriarcal group thing...are they like a burning man tribe?   Cool!
 
Kidding aside, as I read these papers I saw other things that really made me think about how different our world is.   Primarily it was in the area of race and segregation.   "Negroes" were treated as a disconnected part of society - remember, this was before the civil rights movements of the 1960s.
You forget how it was, but then you read a story like the one I quoted above and it brings it back home.  Empires in the USSR, Germany and Japan were wholesale murdering millions of people.
 
And marijuana was a dangerous hallucinogenic narcotic that incited addicts to murder...ooooohh  
 
It's not appropriate to overlay our current societal beliefs and attitudes on a different time in history, and that was certainly different.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #86 on: Sep 30th, 2010, 3:46am »
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Since you mention the race segregation era there was a post on Topix recently by someone who says he remembers that in his town in the 50's there were two YMCA's, one for 'whites only' and one for 'coloreds'. He even mentions the name of the streets where they were located. He said that this was common in the Southern States while less common and unusual in Northern states.
I also read a post once by someone who worked at a summer camp organized by a charity organization for inner city boys, mostly black. The camp councillors were mostly white college girls who volunteered for this work, and as you can imagine they saw a lot of male nudity during these camps since they were in charge of the boys most of the time.
As you say, it was a different era and unlike today in many ways, especially where male nudity was concerned which seems to have been acceptable by everyone in many environments especially swimming, even with females present in many cases up to teenage years.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #87 on: Sep 30th, 2010, 4:25am »
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to "Brad"  
 
 about what you said,  
" Part of the review process included Menesha surveying 31 public schools with pools.  Of them, 20 required the boys to be nude, and the remainder allowed suits because either 1) the pool was outdoors, or 2) the girls locker room opened onto the pool."
 
at least, it shows that the schools who had outdoor swimming pools or who had locker rooms for girls opened onto the pool did not require nudity of boys, so it means that the boys in the nude for swimming lessons in the other schools when nudity was required could not be seen by outside spectators nor by girls of their schools except may be accidentally.
 
These rules seems to me rather reasonable.
 
About all the reasons given for the rule of boys swimming in the nude, I believe that some were not so stupid as the issue of keeping wet swimsuits all the day in a bag or a locker room (of course, it was the same for girls but it was impossible to avoid that for them while it was possible for boys if the adults persons did not mind about their modesty), and also the fact that modesty was not considered as a manly attitude for boys because on the opposite of most of the girls they were already used to take showers together so why not be nude in a pool , and they were not encouraged to be modest. May be it was also a result of the rules applied in the army for the draftees since there was still a draft at that time in your country.  
 
We were not forced in France to swim in the nude, even if the schools were not co-ed,  but we had some PE teachers who were retired military men and they applied some rules in their lessons  which seemed to be inspired by military rules as for instance mandatory showers under their supervision after the lesson or running under the rain or doing many push-ups as punishments and they used to kick our asses  to make us hurry up when necessary or to stop speaking as did the non commissioners officers  while no other teacher did it!.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #88 on: Sep 30th, 2010, 7:07am »
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Quote:
It's not appropriate to overlay our current societal beliefs and attitudes on a different time in history, and that was certainly different.

 
That's the key.
These changes took place within the lifetimes of many of us. Generally they weren't due to world-shaking events, though the Civil Rights Movement came close, but to small responses to problems that arose from small changes in the way things had to be done. Often they weren't even noticeable except in passing but people brought up with the changes will have attitudes that suit them. Only if you remember society before such alterations can you make sense of some things. Or, apparently, even believe them.
 
Regarding the segregation issue, for example, segregation made sense to three of my grandparents and they understood it from lifetime habit. One didn't approve of it but was more prejudiced than he believed himself to be. His reasons weren't the same as my parents' or mine for opposing it. It made no sense to me but since I saw it I know it happened.
It hadn't even been an eternal given to all of my grandparents since one set was born in the 1880s, a decade before the US Supreme Court established it as legal.
Expect people not to believe what you say by 2040.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #89 on: Sep 30th, 2010, 9:37am »
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Two amusing posts, posted just today on Voyforums, describing CFNM at the YMCA in the past. And both seem credible.
 
http://www.voy.com/217785/6657.html
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #90 on: Sep 30th, 2010, 12:56pm »
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easter_man:
 
What I'm saying is that there were no absolute rules.  It was a case-by-case situation.  Indeed, many schools would not allow the boys to swim nude because they deemed it "immoral" and a violation of the boy's privacy in much the same way we do today.  This was in the early 1960s.
 
I personally remember being in a YMCA swim program to learn to swim in the 1960s.  It was in Texas.   I've tried to remember, but can't...however, I'm pretty sure my mom would drop me off in my bathing suit and all the boys wore suits.  I can't remember the circumstances as I was about 6 or 7.
 
On the other hand, I quoted the high school district site in Fargo, ND, wherein men and women, now in their 60s and 70s, posted stories about their experiences back in the old days.  After reading through hundreds of the posts, a few were about how the men swam in the nude.   Two of the women admitted in their posts that they would peek through the cracks in their locker room door to watch the boys line up for roll call, with one telling about what happened when her gym teacher caught her, and why they were too harsh about it.
 
No, there was no consistent rule, no consistent attitude and no consistent policy.   We cannot assume that if a pool did not have an adjacent girls locker room, the boys would swim nude, nor can we assume that those pools that did have a connecting girls locker room required the boys to wear suits.
 
If the true stories of all these schools and swim programs could be laid out one after another, I'm sure it would run the gamut - from school programs wherein the idea of forcing boys to swim nude was objectionable as it is today to school programs where faculty didn't give a hoot about who might meander or look into the pool area, and would think it acceptable for female coaches to teach the classes, as Allan C has been so adamant about in retelling his own experiences.
 
Regardless, those days are long over.   Now, if some guy wants to swim naked in the presence of a lot of women, he will just have to go to one of the public beaches around the country (world) where that's perfectly acceptable.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #91 on: Sep 30th, 2010, 3:24pm »
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Awesome work Brad, you've unearthed heaps of stuff and deserve a round of applause, so take a bow!  
 
I echo what other people have said about it being different times, different attitudes. Even recently things have changed. At school and college we all showered naked in a group and it was nothing out of the ordinary. Now it seems to be going out of favour. In a few years people will question if that ever happened.
 
And whatever rules schools had there's every chance they were overlooked, adapted or broken from time to time.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #92 on: Sep 30th, 2010, 5:18pm »
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Quote:
 Now, if some guy wants to swim naked in the presence of a lot of women, he will just have to go to one of the public beaches around the country (world) where that's perfectly acceptable.

 
Not only would going to a nudist beach fulfill such a desire, but it might be instructive. I have friends who own a place on St. Maarten. On the French side is a nudist beach, Orient Bay. I have been there many times. Despite my abiding interest in CFNM and the fact that I am nude and many of the women there wear suits (but not all by any means), my reaction is always the same -- after the first 30 seconds, I am so used to it everyone might as well be dressed. That is what it was like when I swam nude at the Y with a female suited instructor -- after a few seconds you forgot all about it.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #93 on: Sep 30th, 2010, 6:25pm »
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Brad:
 
I cannot find a Sheboygan article dated 1951 posted here.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #94 on: Sep 30th, 2010, 7:29pm »
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on Sep 30th, 2010, 5:18pm, Allan_C. wrote:

 
Not only would going to a nudist beach fulfill such a desire, but it might be instructive. I have friends who own a place on St. Maarten. On the French side is a nudist beach, Orient Bay. I have been there many times. Despite my abiding interest in CFNM and the fact that I am nude and many of the women there wear suits (but not all by any means), my reaction is always the same -- after the first 30 seconds, I am so used to it everyone might as well be dressed. That is what it was like when I swam nude at the Y with a female suited instructor -- after a few seconds you forgot all about it.

 
Allan, I think at that age, maybe up to 8 or 9, no one would appreciate a CFNM situation as something exciting or erotic. It certainly would have made no difference for me being nude in the presence of females at 6 or 7. In fact I was bathed by my aunt regularly up to about age 8 or 9 because at that age we are not sexually aware. After that age during puberty it would have been embarrassing and certainly not sexually enjoyable. It is only during my teenage years and later that I found CFNM exciting.
However on your other point that when one gets used to a situation it stops being exciting is true. I believe that it is the forbidden fruit that makes a situation exciting most. It is like trying to do CFNM with your wife or familiar girlfriend, it certainly does not work for me, though it may work for some.
It is the same with pornography. Before the Internet we would have paid anything for a piece of pornography or erotic material. Today we are inundated with it and, at least in my case, I don't even bother to look at it. I would rather read a good story or better a real account, at least it brings back those memories of our youth.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #95 on: Sep 30th, 2010, 7:49pm »
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Brad said :
"Regardless, those days are long over.   Now, if some guy wants to swim naked in the presence of a lot of women, he will just have to go to one of the public beaches around the country (world) where that's perfectly acceptable."
 
Brad, I think that would not work for many into CFNM, and may even be unthinkable for most to expose themselves on a public beach. Maybe a little towel teasing if females are about, but to parade naked in front of dozens, and maybe hundreds of people, is not everyone's cup of tea. I think a more limited situation, like a small party or just between two people is more preferable and acceptable by most. Also what makes these accounts of the past so exciting is that it was mostly forced nudity for the enjoyment of females, whether intentional or not, and in special situations.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #96 on: Sep 30th, 2010, 7:57pm »
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on Sep 30th, 2010, 6:25pm, Youngren wrote:
Brad:
 
I cannot find a Sheboygan article dated 1951 posted here.

 
If anyone is interested to try their luck and maybe find out more there is a Sheboygan forum on Topix. Just type the word in the search box on the top right hand corner. Maybe someone still living in that town has memories of these events. Just start a new thread asking for information.
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Re: Brad Offers Apologies
« Reply #97 on: Sep 30th, 2010, 9:29pm »
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Youngren - are these images visible to you?  If not, copy the links into a browser, save the photos, then use a photo view to enlarge the articles to read.   I also have the full newspaper pages from which these cam in .pdf, but this should suffice.
 
 
on Sep 26th, 2010, 8:17am, Brad wrote:
This is a milestone.   After many, many hours of research, I have FINALLY found absolute proof that:

 
1.  It was mandatory for these boys to swim completely nude in government-sponsored programs;
 
2.  In the program below, these boy could not be younger than 10 but could be as old as 15 years in age in Junior High,
 
3.   Female  swimming instructors supervised these classes, and,
 
4.  Parents of both gender would watch the boys - in one meet it was reported 650 family members showed.  

 
I began to research newspaper articles of a public swimming program sponsored by the  Department of Public Recreation in Sheboygan, Wisconsin in the 1950s.    This program sponsored swim classes for boys and girls up through high school.
 
Here's are two - the first was in 1952 and clearly states "boys swim in the nude":
 

 
Here is a 1959 article that reiterates that the boys are not to wear swim trunks during class:
 

 
 
Now, here's where the program gets interesting.  As with the other articles, it indicates towards the end that the girls will wear swimming suits, but "swimming suits are not required for boys".
 
However, it says that the classes will have four supervisors, two men for the morning classes, and a man and a woman - Miss Evelyn Hern, for the afternoon classes.    But if you're thinking Miss Hern will only be with the girls, you're mistaken.   The article discusses how it will be a *boys-only* program from Nov through Feb, then a girls-only program thereafter.  This meant that Miss Hern was there supervising the afternoon sessions for the boys, which was to be the Junior High boys swim class.  Although it indicated anyone that couldn't make the morning classes could be in her afternoon classes.   And I would guess a lot of the boys had excuses why the couldn't make the morning session and instead had to be in her class!  Wink
 

 
 
The following one is even more curious.    It mentions again that only the girls wear swimsuits, but then at the end discusses how families were invited one day to stand on the balconies right above the pool and watch the boys compete.   550 men and women showed to watch the boys.  It doesn't state if others were there, but with 550 people watching, you'd assume it was pretty much open, and you might think girls would have been part of such a large crowd.
 
I can't imagine how it felt to be a, say, 14 year old boy on that day swimming stark naked as hundreds of females watched me.
 
It should also be noted that this year a Miss Maradel Honold was in charge, although it doesn't provide evidence she was supervising the boys as it does in the previous one.
 

 
 
 
SOOOOO, Alan, you've been vindicated.    Hell, you may have been in one of these classes!
 

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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #98 on: Oct 1st, 2010, 6:17am »
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"Brad" :
 
 thank you very much for all these articles very interesting
 
it shows definitively that there was sometimes female instructors for the boys swimming lessons in the nude and also, even if certainly very seldom, some schools where family members of both genders could be present to watch at boys swimming in the nude at swim meets.  
 
it was not fantasy as it is sometimes said by younger persons who do not believe that it could have happened, it was official, well known, and admitted by families.
 
I must recognize that as I was never in this situation, I don't know exactly what I have thought if I had experienced to be naked for swimming at school with a female instructor.
 
I believe that I would have been very embarrassed but as I was pretty an obedient boy, I would have certainly comply to the rule and may be I would have get out of the embarrassment after a few lessons.
 
The social norms are very important to make you feel comfortable or not in many situations or at least to admit to do something even if you don't like it or to comply to instructions.
 
As I have already said, in France during a very long years until the middle of the 60's, all the teenagers aged of 18 had to report in front of a draft board commission for a real physical performed by a military doctor in front of a dozen members of the draft board commission and a large group of draftees in a big room and it lasted almost one or two hours to stay completely naked in the room.
Most of the members of the draft commission were civil persons without any medical knowledge but they could watch at the physicals of each draftee.
They were certainly very used to that situation because there was a great lot of draftees each year and they weremost of the time members of the commission for many years .
 
I have experienced it as a draftee so I can say that it was embarrassing for the young men  but nobody was really objecting against that way of performing the draft physicals, it was admitted as a social norm by all adults and the boys had nothing to do than to comply to the instructions. It was considered as a kind of ritual initiation before reaching  adulthood.
 
Today when a french male person relates this experience in his life to a young male person , he does not believe that it was possible and says that he would have never admitted to be so humiliated because social norms have so much changed that it is almost incredible.
 
it is the same for many situations, attitudes and opinions.  
 
it is obvious that the rule of swimming in the nude for boys in the past in your country  was admitted by a lot of persons at that time.  
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #99 on: Oct 1st, 2010, 10:49am »
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 Been out of touch for over a week now. Am now able to comment although I have posted the same before.  
  Those news papers clipping sure required some research although they were pretty typical of announcements at those times. As they say, boys were required to swim nude. One thing caught my eye. Some say that swim suits were optional for boys. Dont know if that was in the clippings or someones comments but I experienced it. In my case, although we swam nude at the Y, had one occasion that I can remember where 4 or 5 boys wore suits while the rest of use swam nude. Was a family demonistration day and the boys mothers and sisters showed up. We could have worn suits that day if we wanted to but aside from the suited boys, none of us had suits so we swam nude.  
  Have to think that was one of those suit optional days. Would appear that was the practice at other pools as well as the one I attended. Sorry for repeating myself from other post I have made.  LEO C
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #100 on: Oct 1st, 2010, 3:44pm »
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The controversy over whether this happened, and why we can't understand it, is best understood in a situation that occurred when a professor's time machine exploded, and caught up in it was a lady news reporter doing a story on the unreliability of old DeLoreans.
 
According to the story, she encountered a female swim coach in the past while sitting in the holding room of the Intergalactic Time Restoration Institute waiting for the Temporal Correction Machine to be calibrated.   Here's their conversation:

Future Lady - News Reporter:  "Hey, so you're from the past?  What year are you from?"
Past Lady - Swim Coach at junior high: "1957, and you?"
Future lady:  "2010.  So, what did you do back then?"
Past Lady:  "Swim coach, taught adolescent boys and girls to swim."
Future Lady:  "My grandfather once told me that the boys swam naked, is that true?"
Past Lady:  "Yep"
Future Lady:  "Wait, you mean to tell me all these guys were running around stark naked right in front of you - willies dangling and all?"
Past Lady:  "Yep"
Future Lady:  "How'd you like it?"
Past Lady: "It was interesting - definitely got a lesson in male anatomy.  But in the end, it's just a job."
Future Lady: "Wow, that's pretty damned weird.  How did they respond to having a female in their presence?"
Past Lady:  "Well, at first they were pretty immature about it.  One wiggled his weenie at me while the others laughed and made jokes.  But when I yelled at the coach about it, he promised it wouldn't happen again and disciplined the guy.  Eventually it got easier and everyone got used to it.  Again, it's a job for me".
Future Lady:  "You sure live in bizarre times, that would NEVER happen in my times."
 
Past Lady: "So what do you do?"
Future Lady:  "Reporter, sports mostly".
Past Lady:  "Must be hard given all the male reporters are on the in..you know, they can get the story from the locker room, you can't"
Future Lady: "Not so anymore.  Women can now go into the locker rooms and interview the players anytime the male reporters are there".
Past Lady:  "Wait, you mean to tell me all these guys were running around stark naked right in front of you - willies dangling and all?"
Future Lady:  "Yep
Past Lady:  "How'd you like it?"
Future Lady: "It was interesting - definitely got a lesson in male anatomy.  But in the end, it's just a job."
Past Lady: "Wow, that's pretty damned weird.  How did they respond to having a female in their presence?"
Future Lady:  "Well, at first they were pretty immature about it.  One wiggled his weenie at me while the others laughed and made jokes.  But when I yelled at the coach about it, he promised it wouldn't happen again and disciplined the guy.  Eventually it got easier and everyone got used to it.  Again, it's a job for me".
Past Lady:  "You sure live in bizarre times, that would NEVER happen in my times."
 
Future Lady: "Well, its not as bizarre as what my sister experiences, she experiences some VERY bizarre stuff."
Past Lady: "So what does she do?"
Future Lady:  "She's a prison guard at a male correctional facility"
Past Lady: "Uh, I'm not going to even ask..."
 
BUZZ...BUZZ...BUZZ
 
Future Lady:  "Well, guess they got this time shift worked out.  Nice conversation.   If you ever see my grandfather in your swimming class, give him a hug and kiss for me!
Past Lady:  "Will do, no problem me doing that in my times...have a nice trip!"

 
I think I'll write a book..."Time Travels Through CFNM History".
 
 
 
 
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #101 on: Oct 1st, 2010, 5:56pm »
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Nice parable, nicely told!
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #102 on: Oct 1st, 2010, 6:27pm »
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Hehe, that's brilliant Brad  Kiss  and how true  Grin
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #103 on: Oct 1st, 2010, 6:45pm »
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And just what are you drinking, Mr. Brad?! Tongue  
 
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #104 on: Oct 1st, 2010, 8:01pm »
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on Oct 1st, 2010, 6:45pm, scooter wrote:
And just what are you drinking, Mr. Brad?! Tongue  

 
You know me too well my friend...I do get on a roll when I have a drinky.   Today it's red, cabernet - Guenoc.  Best wine in the world for under $10 (Trader Joe's).
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #105 on: Oct 1st, 2010, 8:19pm »
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Great story, Brad!
Concerning guys getting used to CFNM, I earlier reported my past experience at Riis Park, in the Rockaways, Queens, N.Y. After a while, I did get used to it, but was always aware of my nakedness, in a comfortable way. I would take note when girls looked, and would tactfully look at the ladies, as well. I can only recall getting a semi-erection once, as two girls around 18-20 watched as I took off my bathing suit. N.Y. State banned nude bathing, in 1983, but it is still to be found here, on some Federal beach property.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #106 on: Oct 2nd, 2010, 3:40am »
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I agree with the others,  
it is a great and clever story because it is right about social norms in the past and today and the great differences of thoughts about some situations.
 
 
What seems incredible today as boys being instructed to have swim lessons in the nude was considered as  rather or mainly normal by most persons in the past, and certainly the same for some kind of naked physicals in group without anu privacy  for school or for military service  or spanking boys bare ass or corporal punishment for boys as caning in school, and on the opposite, the presence of a female news reporter in the locker room of men doing sport after competitive meets or a female prison guard at a male correctional facility doing strip searches of males  would have seen incredible. So few women were working and they had not that kind of job.  
 
it is funny!
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #107 on: Oct 4th, 2010, 1:10am »
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As the above articles prove, boys did in fact swim nude in public pools, and have female instructors.  But I'm sure that the rules were not put in place to foster female voyeurism.  Since nude male swimming was commonplace at that time (1952) and place (Sheboygan, WI) spectators probably were expected to grant the swimmers privacy in the way that is done in the mixed baths in Japan.  I'm sure binoculars were considered faux pas.  
 
But young girls being what they are, of course they managed to check out the boys' penises on the sly.  If, say, a 14 year old girl is ga-ga over a certain 15 year old boy who is suddenly standing in her sight naked, you KNOW she is going to take the opportunity to look.  And so are her friends.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #108 on: Oct 4th, 2010, 10:16am »
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on Oct 4th, 2010, 1:10am, SeaMine wrote:
As the above articles prove, boys did in fact swim nude in public pools, and have female instructors.  But I'm sure that the rules were not put in place to foster female voyeurism.  Since nude male swimming was commonplace at that time (1952) and place (Sheboygan, WI) spectators probably were expected to grant the swimmers privacy in the way that is done in the mixed baths in Japan.  I'm sure binoculars were considered faux pas.  
 
But young girls being what they are, of course they managed to check out the boys' penises on the sly.  If, say, a 14 year old girl is ga-ga over a certain 15 year old boy who is suddenly standing in her sight naked, you KNOW she is going to take the opportunity to look.  And so are her friends.

 
I still don't know if the articles I found "prove" beyond any doubt that boys swam nude while female instructors and families were allowed to watch; however, the preponderance of stories imply that was the case.  I'm certain it happened in some instances, the question is though, how wide spread might that have been?
 
As the Dear Abby articles read, at lease two mothers wrote in separately believing CFNM dress codes were appropriate for children *not* because it was easier that way, but specifically to allow the girls to see the boys genitals as they felt boys should not be allowed to keep "secrets" from girls and it was "proper for girls to know what boys look like" while the reverse was taboo.   This was not necessarily shared by everyone, but it was not uncommon.  It is easy to see a time where a swim coach was needed for a community swim class for boys, a female instructor was available and willing, and no one in the administration thought wrong of it.
 
Indeed, I grew up in the 1960s in that kind of environment - my sister's modesty was guarded by the parents as though it was sacred, yet my authoritative demanding father would order us to "strip naked" when we were in the garage after coming home from the woods and having mud on us.    
 
But this was a time when female teaches molesting boys was unheard of, and, men controlled the work place.  The man was king. Women were expected to be maternal housewives that cared for the needs of the man.   In the work place, management was always male and secretaries were always female.  
 
Because men were in the dominant role in society, it was different.  
 
I'm not saying this justified it, but I do believe there were cultural issues back then that made the difference.
 
So since many of us are in agreement this happened on at least some level in certain places, the next question is...how did these women think of it?
 
First, at the risk of generalization, I am absolutely convinced that although women can be very visual, there's no comparison between how men and women respond, both overtly and their thought processes.    
 
But, women do have libidos, and if some of these boys were as old as, say 14, 15 o 16, they were reaching ages of sexual maturity.   The penises and balls had matured and money were growing pubic hair.    If you've been to as many nude beaches as i have, or, watched events like the Naked Mile, girls' eyes are gravitated to our naked butts and cocks.   It might be just a quick glance, but it's there.   Now take a young 20ish girl, put her in a swim room where dozens of boys are walking all around her stark naked, unless she's made of stone she is going to be taking looks at their naked bums and swinging dicks.
 
Again, I once knew a female sports reporter on a social basis and she confirmed that she did look at the guys, that they female reporters had techniques for doing it without seeming obvious, and, that she enjoyed that aspect of her job greatly.   But she'd deny it if ever asked, just as I'm sure these swim instructors would as well.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #109 on: Oct 4th, 2010, 1:05pm »
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"Brad" :  
 
You have written this :  
"Again, I once knew a female sports reporter on a social basis and she confirmed that she did look at the guys, that they female reporters had techniques for doing it without seeming obvious, and, that she enjoyed that aspect of her job greatly.   But she'd deny it if ever asked, just as I'm sure these swim instructors would as well. "
 
No the comparison between the two situations is not right,  it does not  prove anything about the thoughts and feelings of mothers or women instructors in nude swimming lessons for boys in the past  because the presence of female sports reporters in the locker room of men is a recent situation. In the past never a woman had that kind of job.
 
It is obvious that if high school boys were today swimming in the nude, if the presence of mothers or sisters was allowed or if the male students had a female instructor, all these female persons will not react the same as in the past.
 
Today, a student aged of 15 to 18 may be considered as sexually attractive by a middle aged woman as were mothers or women instructors,  he is no more considered as a lad without sexuality, on this point, it is  today very different of the past where such a situation was certainly for a lot of persons more considered as a situation of innocent nudity. It was why it could happened without any objection of anybody and especially not of parents.
 
The decency for a girl was very important at that time, I am convinced that if mothers or fathers would have thought that their daughters could have been turned on when they were  present at a nude practice or meet of students boys in a swimming pool, they would have forbidden them to be present.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #110 on: Oct 4th, 2010, 2:15pm »
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I cannot agree with you Easter_man, that because it was decades ago and not socially acknowledged at the time that therefore women did not enjoy seeing naked teens (much less naked boys). It seems to me clear that they did - many if not most. We acknowledge now, that is we "know", that all sorts of physiological and biological functions connected with sexual functioning are virtually automatic in people including women and children. I think the better way to think about times past where women "were not" sexual, is that in those times their sexuality was repressed, a carryover from Victorian correctness. But biological and physiologic processes put the lie to such idea. So I think these days we have a more accurate, not less accurate, understanding of female (and other) sexuality.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #111 on: Oct 4th, 2010, 3:53pm »
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I also do not agree with Easterman. There is no such thing as innoent nudity after a certain age, that is after puberty. Girls are interesed in boys as much as boys are interested in girls. It is just that boys are more daring than girls, and men more than women. As Brad has said women are very good at hiding their feelings and usually deny that they are enjoying a particular CFNM situation, because it isn't "ladylike" to show these feelings. From my own experience women from a very young age enjoy male nudity. Also they talk very differently when they talk between themselves in private than when they do in the preesence of males or in public.
Even in the post I have posted by Deb she says that she started to take notice and get interested in her father's and brothers' genitals when she reached a certain age, before that she just took it for granted, or 'innocent nudity'.
I have no doubt that these female instructors and moms and sisters and their friends watching the boys surely enjoyed their nudity. It would be naive to say otherwise.  
This is confirmed from the few accounts I read about girls being present with their mothers as spectators during nude boys swim meets who say that their mothers stopped taking the girls after a certain age, about 12 or 13. This may not have been the case in all places but from some of the few accounts I have heard. As also from Deb's mother who explained to her that it was natural for girls to enjoy male nudity.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #112 on: Oct 4th, 2010, 10:30pm »
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I agree with easter_man in that we cannot impute sexual thoughts into the minds of these female coaches.   They may have had no sexual interest, particularly if their class was, say 6 or 7 year olds.
 
Conversely, we cannot claim the contrary, particularly when a female coach was, say, 20 years old and the boys were adolescent boys just developing into men.
 
We just don't know either way, just as we don't know what the real story was behind how and when these female coaches taught the courses.
 
 
However, as it pertains to a woman in her 30s having sexual urges towards, say her daughter's 17 year-old boyfriend, Ann Lander's had an article.   I can upload it also, but am getting tired of doing that...I'll upload it if you guys want the actual news article for archival purposes:
 

July 3, 1974
 
Dear Ann Landers: A few days ago there was a big discussion in our office about that woman who did her housework in the nude and then enjoyed a little skinny dipping  in her own private pool. It seems she was infatuated with her daughter's 17-year-old boyfriend and one day he showed up beside the pool and surprised her. She was embarrassed to death and he wanted to put her at ease, so he took off his clothes and swam with her. The girls in our office talked about that letter all day.
 
In the first place, what kind of nut does her house work in the nude? In the second place, what sort of woman in her 30s would have a yen for a kid 17?  In the third place, there were few of us (myself Included) who decided that the situation was so far out that you probably made up the letter on day when the mail was dull.  How about answering these questions in the press, madame?
 
Inquisitive In Illinois
 
Dear Ink: In the first place, thousands of women do their housework in the nude. I learned this when I printed a letter from a woman who got caught naked as a radish while doing her laundry in the basement and was surprised by the meter-reader. That woman wasn't nuts. She explained she was tired of ripping her pockets on doorknobs and described how gloriously free she felt as she whipped through the housework unencumbered by clothing.  
 
In the second place, it is not uncommon for a woman of ANY age to flip over a much younger man. I've received stacks of letters from teen-age girls who view their mothers as serious competition.  Moreover, some girls have stated frankly that their mothers are extremely aggressive and "up to plenty."
 
In the third place, there's no such thing as a dull day in my office. The notion that I have to fabricate letters in order to put together a lively column is  absurd. A person would have to be a psychotic to make up those letters. Eighteen years of this work has taught me that nothing is so far out, or bizarre, that somebody, somewhere, won't do it.


 
Key to this is the thought of girls in their adolescence being worried that their mother might be putting a move on their boyfriends.   Although girls often get overly jealous, the point is that many grown women have sexual urges towards young boys.    It wasn't until recent years that female teaches began to act on these urges making national news.   And now the term "cougar" is all too familiar.   It's not that these women haven't had the urges until recent years, but rather, our society is more accepting of women expressing their libidos in all kinds of ways without necessarily being branded a "slut" for being sexual - even if those urges do take them into illegal territory.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #113 on: Oct 5th, 2010, 7:10am »
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It is intersting that you mention female teachers. There were several cases which ended up in court of female teachers 'abusing' young teen boys and even having sexual relations with them, some as young as 12.  
There is a site devoted to this subject which shows hundreds of cases which have ended in court of pupil sexual abuse, both by male and female teachers, and even shows most of the photos of these teachers, so they are all documented. I will try and find the site and link it here if it is still there.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #114 on: Oct 5th, 2010, 3:42pm »
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on Oct 5th, 2010, 7:10am, Bobby_Bare wrote:
It is intersting that you mention female teachers. There were several cases which ended up in court of female teachers 'abusing' young teen boys and even having sexual relations with them, some as young as 12.  
There is a site devoted to this subject which shows hundreds of cases which have ended in court of pupil sexual abuse, both by male and female teachers, and even shows most of the photos of these teachers, so they are all documented. I will try and find the site and link it here if it is still there.

 
No doubt that this has happened many times before.
 
Until recently, the problem was the arrogance of administrators, writers, journalists and society in general that every person's perspective was accurate - NOT a subjective perspective that may or not be accurate, which is the real case.
 
For eons it was accepted that men would have sexual yearnings for teen girls.  Indeed, how many "teen nude" spam sites do each of us get in our emails.    Playboy routinely has models barely 18.
 
So why would it be any different for women?  The *only* difference is that from a biological standpoint, womens' libidos are not as compulsive as men, and they could resist the urges better.   But this is not to say that those urges haven't always been there.  It's just that most in society had it wrong, but were too arrogant to realize it.
 
 
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #115 on: Oct 6th, 2010, 7:19am »
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on Oct 5th, 2010, 4:08pm, Rodney wrote:

I don't remember this particular letter from the ladies in Illinois, but I DO remember the letter to which they refer, the one from the gal caught skinny dipping by her daughter's boyfriend. That woman signed herself as "Marin County Mom," or something similar.
 
My mother read the letter, and remarked that "it figures she's from Marin County," as "they're all a bunch of sex-crazed perverts up there."
 
Thanks for posting Brad. It brought back memories.

 
So a woman who skinnydipped was called "a sex pervert", while a male doing the same thing was normal and acceptable. No wonder the double standard was so strong and universal.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #116 on: Oct 6th, 2010, 7:43pm »
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Come to think of it, there's another change of custom and even law that many probably haven't noticed if they aren't old enough.
 
Up through the 1950s or so people often took nude pictures of their children. This was before digital cameras so if they didn't have the equipment, and most didn't, they had the photos developed at the local store. Nobody cared.
 
It's so hot here in the summer that when I was a kid little girls, often up to age 7 or so, ran about outdoors in nothing but panties. I haven't noticed that in ages.
The last approach to it was in Austin, Texas up to about 1972 where girls under about ten sometimes wore only pants, including downtown, but I thnk that was an anomaly due to the local population.
 
During that period the change was going on that rendered such things, once innocent,  questionable and then nearly or totally illegal.
People actually noticed and commented on it, meaning once unimportant matters drew their attention.
 
The last mass public instances that I know about can be documented.
The 1966 movie Blow Up starred David Hemmings as a photographer. In one scene two girls aged about 15 or 16 show up and proceed to engage in horseplay, finally pulliing each others' clothes off as they rolled around on various fabrics. They were in motion, but nothing was hidden from the camera. It's "art" so the DVD is still available.
In 1969 a Blind Faith LP album featured a color photo of a nude girl about age 12, shown from the waist up holding a chrome hood ornament shaped like a delta wing jet, one breast plainly visible and the other only partly obscured.  
The 1978 movie Pretty Baby starred Brooke Shields as a 12 year old prostitute in the 1910s with several nude scenes. "Art" so on DVD.
The -- I think -- 1962 b/w movie of Lolita was already "careful" to show nothing; the remake from the 90s was careful to specify that the nude scenes were played by a body double age 18.
 
That is, begining around 1960 child nudity, especially female, became increasingly taboo (which fits with ending nude swimming by boys during that time). Originally children were considered innocent and cute. Adult nudity was considered something to be restricted. As this process went forward, adult nudity, female especially, became more explicit. Only sexually mature persons are acceptable in many contexts now -- somewhat the opposite of, say, 60 years ago.
Places that develop or print photos will reject or even call the cops about child nudes but not bat an eye over topless adult women.
 
What has caused this semi-reversal? I'm not sure, though I'd bet it's part of the change in swimming discussed here.
When I was a kid someone who molested children was in danger of being beaten to death by adult men if the cops didn't get there in time. Now they fall into the hands of social workers and organizations that try to legalize their "preference".  
Since then, too, feminists teach that "all men are child molesters and wife beaters". That's the first statement on the first day of many women's studies classes. The change in official focus to older and older women could be another part of this: to try to keep men from being interested in young women so women can pursue careers or just to eliminate competition that threatens women who've worked and are about to become infertile in middle age.
The implication is that children are a serious threat to women.
I can't get a firm grip on the entire process.
Of course CFNM isn't too concerned with female nudity but the larger picture affects it.  
Can anyone relate these changes to specific factors?
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #117 on: Oct 6th, 2010, 10:24pm »
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PC - nice review.   Yep, our culture has changed considerably over the past few decades.  One might argue that it, in part, has to do with technology and the Internet.   It may also have to do with landmark decisions by courts as it pertains to child pornography and molestation.
 
I believe that all children, regardless of gender or anything else, must be protected, and if that means going overboard in being overly prudish and protective, I'm down with it.   But given the other members of this forum I've grown to know, I'm betting you'll find total agreement on that here.
 
Too bad other forums (ergo, dickflash.com) doesn't have the same ethics.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #118 on: Oct 8th, 2010, 1:19pm »
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I was just going through some old files and found some more vintage photos some of you have seen before.
 
 
The first two are fakes.   If you are proficient with a photo editor, you can look closely at them and see they've been altered from the original (to do this, pull them up on, say, Photoshop and zoom in very close to enlarge the pixels - you can see how the shopped areas are different than the rest of the photo):
 

 

 
Other "fakes" we've seen are actually swim meets in European nudist camps, and the photos were taken when the boys were competing.   However, I've found photos of the same swim meets where the girls are competing, and they are nude too as well as others standing around the pool.
 
 
However, the following two are almost certainly real photos from a long past era.   The amount of effort to "fake" them would have been immense and the person would have really had to know how to do it in a professional way; however, I don't see it.
 
 

 

 
 
The above two clearly demonstrate what a lot of the accounts told by our older members depict.   In the first one, note the second boy in the background.   He's older (at least 10) and embarrassingly hides his genitals from two girls of similar age as they pass by - one seemingly turning around to get a better look at his front.   It demonstrates that boys were indeed far more shy about exposing themselves at that age than what adults felt was proper, yet their embarrassment about being naked in front of girls their same age was apparently not a consideration for the parents.
 
More importantly is the second photo.  This is not just two boys of the same parents, but a large group outing where numerous families join in the nude-boys, clothed-girls scenario.    
 
I count a total of 15 boys, all naked, and two girls, that appear to be early teens, with them.  There are also 4 women sitting on the shore watching.  It is outdoors in a public area; thus, apparently none of these families were concerned about *anyone* stumbling by and seeing the boys.
 
The point is this...if these families saw no issue with the boys swimming naked not only in front of parents, but girls of the same age, then why would it all of a sudden be an issue for one of those women to be a swim instructor, and, the girls being brought to see the boy's final swim meet where they got their swimming certificates, and, the mandatory nudity rule for the boys still applied?
 
The more research I do, the more I'm convinced that not only was it normal for boys and men to swim naked, but that in many situations, at least boys of, say, under 14 years of age swam naked at times when both mothers and girls of a comparable age were present.  
 
Sooner or later I think we'll stumble on more definitive evidence as to how common this was, but as of now, I believe we've got a lot.
 
Here's a larger version of that last picture:
 

 
 
If any of you can add any photographic evidence, please join in!
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #119 on: Oct 8th, 2010, 6:40pm »
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Hi there, I'm the new guy, although "old" is probably a better description.
 
I can't add any photos or articles, but I can add another story to the discussion.
 
I found all of this discussion interesting, particularly since most of you weren't around.  I'm from the old school having grown up in the 1940s and 1950s, and probably older than most of you.   I couldn't care less whether you believe these stories such as the one Alan told or not, but what is clear to me is that the world we live in today is quite different than when I was growing up in the northwest.  The issue about "double-standard" has to be taken in context.   I remember talking with my grandmother when she lamented about not being able to vote because she was a woman, even though she was a single parent raising three children.  And her drunkard good-for-nothing husband had taken all the money forcing her to have two jobs - doing laundry and cleaning floors for wealthy families.  Yet society felt he had the right to vote whereas she did not.  But if that fact had not been so documented, many of you would never believe such double standards happened, and, that it cut both ways.
 
My story growing up was that I had two brothers and a sister.   I remember being naked constantly as a child parading about in all my glory, as were my brothers.    Those were simpler times.   If I wanted to wear clothes, I had to put them on myself, and as I got older I did.    The school I went to did not have a swimming pool, and I can't think of any schools in my community that did.   But I do remember a situation similar to the article in Dear Abby posted in this forum wherein the mom felt "boys shouldn't keep secrets kept from girls" and that is was "proper" for girls to see what boys looked like naked while concurrently believing it was very "improper" for boys to know what girls looked like nude.    In my experience, it was not terribly uncommon for a mother to use the nudity of a boy to allow her girls to get an education on boys' anatomy  while at the same time denying the boys the same opportunity they desperately wanted.  I know this because I personally experienced it.
 
My specific experience happened when I went to stay with my cousins for a few days during my summer break from school.   My aunt had large place out in the country and four daughters.   They ranged in age from about 8 to 14 at the time, and I was around 13 or so, if I remember correctly.    For a couple of days all I can remember was how hot and humid it was, and the aunt constantly promising to take us swimming if we behaved and did our chores.  Finally, the day came wherein she kept her promise and took the four of us to a lake about 30 minutes away.    When we got there I observed a few families with their blankets spread out.  We walked past them, and down a dirt trail until we came to a bank on a river that fed into the lake, the thick brush assured us we had some privacy.   My aunt spread out the blanket and when the girls took off their shirts and pants I then realized they had all worn their swimsuits on underneath.   But the mom never forewarned me about wearing a swimsuit, so all I had on under my shorts was just my briefs.
 
I was too embarrassed to let them see me in my underwear, so I was about to follow them in while still in my shorts.  I then heard my aunt say "Timmy, don't go in like that, you'll get your clothes wet".   She then told me to take my shorts off, and I reluctantly did while blushing knowing the girls could see my tidy white briefs.   As I was about to dart into the water, my aunt told me to also remove the underwear.   I was downright shocked to hear such a command and was in disbelief, until she repeated it.  I was extremely nervous about even the possibility the girls could see me totally nude as I was already at an age where  sexual interaction between girls and boys was becoming more important, and thus nudity meant something more than it did when I was a toddler.   Since that age, I had never been naked in front of any females, even my mother.   I questioned her about it and argued it wasn't fair that I had to be naked when the girls weren't.  But she said that girls are different than boys, and she didn't want me to have wet underpants for the drive back as it would ruin the car seats, and she didn't have a bathing suit for me.   At that age, you are required to relinquish to older folks and not question their authority or whether they are right, but instead to simply have faith that they are always right and comply with their demands, so this is exactly what I did even though I dreaded doing it.   I ended up dutifully obeying her and nervously removing my underwear.  
 
I remember being absolutely humiliated.   For a brief moment I stood there completely stark naked while the four girls stopped splashing about and turned looking at me with a wide-eyed look of intense interest and pleasure in seeing me naked, which heightened my embarrassment and prompted me to immediately hide my genitals with my hands.  I believe  their seeing my embarrassment of my predicament only increased their interest in my awkward exposure.  I realize now that they probably had never seen a naked boy, particularly since they had no brothers.  Given I was attempting to prevent them from seeing my genitals, it no doubt piqued their curiosity and interest all the more in being able to see what I was hiding underneath my hands.   As I looked at my aunt, she was looking at me no doubt recognizing my embarrassment as I stood theRe hiding my privates from her and the girls, yet a slight smile on her face told me she  was now content that I had obeyed her instructions to strip completely naked.  For me, it was clear she was not only unconcerned about how my predicament had made me feel, but maybe  a bit amused by it.  
 
I quickly ran in and we splashed about in the water for a while while I kept my bottom half well below water level until it was time to go.  When my aunt said it was time to leave, at a moment when I knew the girls weren't looking I raced out of the water covering my genitals and grabbed an available towel to cover myself.  I dried off and slipped quickly into my underwear relieve the ordeal was over.   The double standard became even more obvious when the aunt wanted the girls to remove their suits, dry off and dress for the trip back home.  She had them do this behind some thick bushes while turning to me and telling me to walk a away a bit, and when I did turn briefly to see them obscured by the bushes, the girls complained I was looking wherein my aunt turned around and angrily told me to turn around and not peek or I would get into trouble.  This wasn't the only time I had experienced the double standard, as in the following days when I inadvertently walked in on the two younger girls while they were dressing and still in their underwear.  My aunt scolded me that I should never walk into the rooms without knocking first.   A bit baffled, I asked what the big deal was and she responded that boys should never be in the presence of girls unless they are completely dressed, which again gets back to the issue of it being improper for boys to ever see girls in any other way.  To that end, she made sure the modesty of the girls were always protected during my entire stay with my never once seeing even the youngest in any manner than fully clothed.
 
Although all of this seemed puzzling to me, it did not affect me as intensely as my next experience during my stay.  A few days later we again made the trip to the lake.   What happened occurred in such a matter-of-fact like situation by the girls' mother that I never realized what may have been going on at the time, and by today's standards, would not be considered a very strange and inappropriate thing.  As with the first time, I was again expected to swim in the nude, but this time it was a bit less intimidating having already done so previously.  Knowing what to expect, I undressed behind a tree while still trying to avoid their inquisitive eyes by hiding my genitals when on land and kept my waist below the water level.   But things were about to change.
 
At one point, the youngest girl walked a bit up the bank to look at a squirrel climbing around on a tree, which drew our attention.   The rest of the girls left the water to see, and too curious to stay in, I followed them up onto the banks standing a few feet behind the girls still covering my privates while thinking they would not pay attention to me standing immediately behind them and now completely out of the water.
 
I remember distinctly the youngest saying "it's a boy squirrel, you can tell because it has tickles".   I had no idea what she meant, but the oldest girl laughed as did the mom, who was sitting about 50 feet away reading a book.   The oldest said "you mean testicles! - boys have testicles!" and laughed.   The youngest seemed to be puzzled by the terminology she was using, so the oldest turned to me and said "You see Tim is a boy, and he has testicles too!"   And they all turned to look at me as I stood there stark naked in their full view from my head to feet but still covering my genitals.   All of a sudden my abject shyness turned to panic - they were now not only taking an intense notice of me, but also the subject of their conversation was my genitals as their curiosity resulted in their wanting to sneak a peek at them.   I'm sure my face was beet red with embarrassment and I didn't say anything hoping the conversation would change and we'd be right back in the water again.  But I then heard the dreaded words from the oldest sister with her smiling widely as she said "go on Tim - show Maggie your testicles."  
 
I looked at the mother to rescue me from this embarrassing moment as she clearly heard every word of the conversation and waited for her to instruct her daughters that such a request was inappropriate, but apparently was not taking an issue to the request.  She simply looked at us briefly not saying anything with that same slight smile of amusement - her eyes were communicating a look like: "well Tim, are you going to show them your testicles or not?"  It was as though she not only condoned of the girls interest in my genitals, but wanted me to allow them an opportunity to closely inspect them.   Although I don't know what was going on in her mind, the mother's actions, or rather, inaction, suggested to me she expected me to comply with her daughter's demand.   She then turned back to her book as though not interested in what we were discussing, almost as if she didn't want her presence to stop the progression of events and the girls getting their way in my displaying to them my genitals.  In retrospect when I think back about that day, as I got older it became to suspect the mother may have staged all this such that I would end up satisfying her girls' curiosity and have a way as to further their education in male anatomy by using my naked body.
 
The older sister, who was a characteristically bossy and forceful, repeated the request, but more forcefully as if commanding me to stand at attention and present my testicles to them.   She then said "move your hands so we can see" , reached over and forcefully grabbed my wrists then pulled them away to completely expose my genitals to the girls.  I quickly covered them again, but these girls were not reticent about testing their authority on me.  Absent help from their mom, I began to feel my objection was futile and finally surrendered to the overwhelming pressure of the girls surrounding me, and withdrew my hands while presenting them my penis and balls for their inspection.  They all peered down at them with eyes wide and big smiles as they bent over with their faces just a couple of feet away.  After standing there frozen for a few moments I felt I had to somehow act in a manner that made  it seem like I was not being subjugated to their control, but instead that this was all fine and dandy and normal and all...no big deal, and, that I was perfectly okay with it all, which was my trying to put me on an even keel with them, and my full acceptance of their request at that precise moment seemed to be the best way to do this.   Yet my abject embarrassment and uncomfortableness of the situation must have been obvious to them, which probably increased the intensity of their interest.  In a weak attempt to show I didn't care,  I thrust my pelvis forward while lifting up my penis and prominently presented my balls to them saying "Okay then, here are my testicles - go ahead and look at them.".  Nervously I stood their frozen with my naked balls standing ready for their close inspection.  The oldest then pointed with the tip of her finger touching them telling the others "see, those are Tim's testicles.  Boys like say that they are their' balls' ".  The younger girls giggled at the term, the the youngest said "nu uh, mom, are those Tim's balls?"  The mom looked briefly at us as though only half paying attention with a slight chuckle and said "Yes honey, boys also call them that" .     Again, looking back on that moment, it is now clear the mother was pleased that the girls were given the opportunity to explore my genitals, and were capitalizing on that opportunity.  
 
As I continued to hold up my penis while all of us looked down at my balls, the oldest then pointed and touched the middle of my shaft and said "and that is Tim's penis", and I then let it down allowing them to also examine it as well.    I'm circumcised so while looking at the head of my dick one commented how it looked like a mushroom, and they all giggled while I let them touch and squeeze it.  I tried to fake laughter too suggesting it was all acceptable to me as I was participating in their fun, but I don't think it was convincing in hiding my deep embarrassment.    Any modesty as well as dignitary I had been able to preserve with these girls was now gone for ever.   I resigned myself to letting them touch and prod my penis and balls to their heart's content hoping it would all be over and done soon.   One squeezed the head of my penis between her thumb and forefinger while another pulled at the skin on my balls.  I then let them feel the balls themselves and when one said you can hurt a boy by squeezing them, one of the girls did just that making me yelp and resulting in more of their giggles.  It was only upon my making certain that each and every girl had had as much opportunity she desired to look at, touch and play with my genitals and that their interest was being redirected that I turned and went back into the river alone and still quivering from the embarrassment that I still feel today.   From that moment forward during the rest of my stay with them, I lost all modesty.   The girls would come into the bathroom as I showered leaving the door open, which now was a non-event as even I would no longer worry about shutting the door as I dried off and upon finishing would walk stark naked down the hall to my room to dress unconcerned about the girls' seeing me.  And I think they too may have somewhat lost their curiosity at that point.
 
What the girls did was to be expected - kids do such things and I know most of us play in such ways as kids when exploring our body parts.  However, what was so strange by today's standards was the mother being not only an accomplice, but the initiator of the circumstances that provided her daughters such an opportunity.  I remember her glancing up from her book and watching us behind those sequined pointy sun glasses women wore in the 50s, not saying a damned thing but instead upon seeing their exploring my genitals smiling with amusement and approval.  If her goal was to allow those girls to learn what a boy's genitals look and feel like, she had succeeded, and I believe her smile while watching proved her satisfaction in that.
 
Ironically, after that final incident with the girls by the river, I no longer harbored the anxiety and fear of them seeing me in the raw.  I guess it was a combination of desensitization and resignation, because after they had seen it all and in a manner that left nothing else to be modest about, there was no longer any use in hiding my nudity.    During the remaining days of my summer vacation, I remember not taking my clean clothes with me to the bathroom to shower because afterward, I'd dry off, hang my towel and walk down the hallway naked to dress in my room.  In fact, one time I saw the girls playing Chutes and Ladders downstairs, which was a favorite of mine, so rather than get dressed I instead descended down the stairs still buck naked and played with them.  In an odd way, it seemed that when I was naked, I was less an outsider to their girlish gatherings, maybe because of my exposure and vulnerability made me less threatening as a boy, or alternatively, they still got a giggle out of seeing my genitals bobble about as we played, - I don't know, but it for me it was more enjoyable when they embraced my presence in such a way.   Even the mother made no issue of it when she saw I was sitting there naked playing the game, probably feeling that allowing my remaining in the nude was her rewarding me for previously being compliant to her demands at the river.   The only time she made an issue of my nudity was at the dinner table, which was understandable.
 
Until I read other similar accounts, particularly the stories of others such as Dear Abby and other columnists, I had never fully connected the dots on that moment.  What further underscores the different culture and attitude prior to the 1960s was when I finally got home and told my mother expecting her to chime in with criticism about what had happened (I left out the details of their touching me).   Rather than question her sister having me be naked in front of the girls, her response was "I don't know about that.!  That water could have given you an ear infection" but my nudity was such a non-issue to her that she didn't bother to mention it in her response.   She was obviously very accepting of it as well.
 
But when it initially happened and I was yet to cross that threshold of being comfortable with my nudity around the girls, I remember the embarrassment and feeling of betrayal of the aunt allowing her daughters to explore my private areas.  That period of inspection seemed like an eternity, although it probably could have been measured in minutes.    But in retrospect given what I now know, I do not fault her for it.   It was not done out of maliciousness or a sadistic attempt to humiliate me but to help her daughters learn and grow up in the only way accessible to a rural family during that era.  Further, she and her daughters treated me like a beloved guest the rest of the time always seeing to my needs.    If I could go back in time, I'd not change a thing other than lose the silly embarrassment of it all, and be a bit more understanding and accommodating.
 
But yes, times are different now and the Internet provides all such education (and perhaps too much) to kids these days.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #120 on: Oct 9th, 2010, 1:49am »
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Yup, I think you are correct.  She set you up.  It didn't hurt you and it was educational for the girls.  Excellent story! 
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #121 on: Oct 9th, 2010, 4:18am »
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on Oct 9th, 2010, 1:49am, Youngren wrote:
Yup, I think you are correct.  She set you up.  It didn't hurt you and it was educational for the girls.  Excellent story! 

 
Yes, I agree.  I've had a life time to think about that episode on the river banks.  It took me years to understand and appreciate what she did, but in retrospect, I'm glad she did.   And I now wish I would have enjoyed the moment at the time as much as those girls did.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #122 on: Oct 9th, 2010, 9:07am »
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TALON, hope I am not surprising you if I tell you situations like yours are done today as years ago. You can take it as fact that women will allow young girls the opprotunaty to see what males look like. It will be done in a safe, comfortable for them, situation where they can control things.  
  A few months ago, the wife and I arrived on the beach on a week day, were the only ones there. Shortly afterwards another boat arrived with 5 people. Was a middle aged woman with either her parents or in-laws. Had 2 young girls with her maybe 10 or 11. One girl appeared to be her daughter, the other perhaps a friend. The wife informed the woman that we would be nude. The woman thanks her and tell her she will probably be nude also. During the day the mother would be nude in the water and eventually the 2 young girls would remove their suits while in the water also. While out of the water the 2 young girls made a point of playing and running close to us and the girls made no attempt to hide the fact that they were interested in what a nude male, me, looked like. Very innocient curiousity.  
  Recently my SIL requested that I swim nude when her grand daughter, 14, was present. Also in the spring, one of the neighbors had her 2 nieces accompany her while bringing unwanted refrigerated item to our house, knowing that they would encounter a nude. In all case, the situations were in a controled enviroment and I hope educational for them.  
  Is unfortunate your AUNT allowed the girls to go so far as to point and touch you. That was going a bit to far and can understand your feeling self concious As a youngster, my nudity was never an issue while swimming. It is over and done with a long time ago for you. More than likely you AUNT did not realize how you felt and your mothers reaction also reflects women opinions which I believe are the same today.  LEO C
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #123 on: Oct 9th, 2010, 2:42pm »
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Talon - Excellent story!  Your aunt's presence and ostensible approval of the whole situation sounds like it made it a positive experience for both you and the girls insofar as removing all the societal guilt and "I'm doing something bad".   It allowed these girls to explore their curiosity even further, which I think is healthy.
 
In the end, your own reflection on it sounds like ultimately, it was something you found a good thing as well, so it's a win-win for all involved.  Too bad more of us guys didn't have similar opportunities with girls when growing up.
 
 
Leo C - As with you, there's no secret on this board of my many, many years of exploits at clothing-optional beaches, recreation areas, and nudist clubs and resorts.    The experience you describe is more than common but almost a given in family-styled nudist environments.   When I was in college, I remember one episode when a mother took her two daughters with her to Hippy Hollow (nude beach).   She was nude, they were not.  I got to chatting with the mom and ended up joining them that afternoon, and I was nude as well.  The older daughter was about 16 or 17 and was absolutely stunningly gorgeous.    I remember standing there sideways to her talking to he mother and the girls eyes were gawking non-stop at my cock.   For a lark, I turned in her direction full on frontal to let her study my full monty.   About a year later I saw the girl there at the nudist spot with a friend - neither were nude, but I was glad to see young ladies can openly enjoy voyeurism too.
 
Many years later I met a woman at More Mesa, a nude beach north of Santa Barbara.   I had seen her there several times.   She would come to the beach by herself, never undress, but sit just inside the nude side where there weren't a lot of people, although enough for her to  watch the occasional nude guy walk by.  She also would stare at me too.  Eventually, she begin showing with a couple of girls in their teens and I found out later one was her daughter and the other a friend.  I finally said hello, she was very friendly and I ended up laying out with her. But although I always got nude, this time I kept my clothes on given I didn't want to have a CFNM experience with under age girls present - just not my style or interest.
 
As we all sat there, I asked the mom in front of the girls how she felt about their being in the presence of all the nudity.   She said right in front of them "I think its a great opportunity for them to see what nude men look like".   I couldn't believe it at first - not only her bringing them there, but even making a statement that encouraged them to gawk at the men's packages, and that it was a good thing.   I also learned that the mom of the daughter's friend knew she was coming to the nude beach and was okay with it.   I then admitted that I had not gotten nude because I didn't want to freak her or the girls out.   She then said in  nice way "oh no, please do, we don't mind.".   I stood up facing them, took off my shirt and as I unbuckled my shorts, I remember the two girls ogling my crotch area in anticipation.    My final thought was "well, if the mom wants them education, I'm going to help", which is probably what was going on in the mom's head too.   As I pulled my shorts down and my cock flopped out, the girls starred at it.  I stood there facing the girls about 5 feet away folding my shorts giving them more time to study my penis and balls.   As I looked at the mom, she had an approving smile on her face knowing what I was doing, and glad I was.  I laid down the mom looked at me with a smile and said "feel better?", and I said "a lot".
 
The girls later asked to walk down the beach where the heavy nudity takes place pointing to a stretch past a rock outcropping where I knew there was heavy gay activity, and sometimes the guys were openly touching each other or themselves.   I mentioned to the mom what activities the girls might see and she should think about it, but the mom said "well, they'll have to learn about that stuff sooner or later", then gave the girls permission to go down there.  I left soon afterward.
 
My mother would NEVER had allowed that, and would think what that woman did would have been irresponsible and sinful, and I'm sure a lot of your mothers were the same.   But many mothers, particularly divorced mothers, turn daughters into companions, party friends and soul mates - there's actually a book written about when mother-daughter relationships take a turn and they become confidants with each other discussing things of a sexual nature usually reserved for the husband and wife relationship, including raw sexual things.
 
And as God is my witness, and you may not believe this, and I don't care, but....I knew one mother that invited me to her swing party that was basically an orgy (I met my future girlfriend at the party who was not a swinger and was freaked out).   The mother had a daughter that was a sexy, beautiful blonde with an uncontrollable wild streak.   A couple of years later I got a call from the mother saying she and her daughter wanted to go out and have fun, and wanted to meet me at a biker bar I frequented.   We did, and I found out (much later) the daughter had complained to her about not having any sex, so the mom had orchestrated our going out just so they could end up at my place and the daughter could bang my lights out.   The mom slept on the couch while the daughter and I went to bed.  It was incredible sex.     The mom had also told the daughter about her swing parties, and was encouraging the daughter to join the lifestyle.  Yes, yep, absolutely true.
 
When I called the next day the mom forbade me from talking to her daughter further - for her, it was all about getting her daughter a stud she could have sex with, but did not want it to go further (I was 20 years older.)  
 
That's a true story, but I rarely tell it.    I tell it here to illustrate this - although most of us see our moms as authoritative, proper women that go to great measures to insulate us from the sexuality of the world, mothers and daughters often have a different relationship, and that bond can go to some very bizarre relationships you'd think only adult couples would have.    
 
Therefore, for a mom to want to put her daughter in anon-sexual environment solely to let her view a naked male is not such a far fetched thing, although probably not the majority of mothers would.   But as with leo c and the others, I've witnessed it many times.  And as with Talon, I say there's nothing wrong with mom's doing it and when that happens, why not help the mom out and play along letting your body educate the girls?
« Last Edit: Oct 9th, 2010, 3:05pm by Brad » IP Logged
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #124 on: Oct 9th, 2010, 4:40pm »
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Interesting story, Brad, and completely credible. I had a somewhat similar one when I was working at a summer camp. The wife of the guy who ran the camp, actually the two of them ran it more or less together, took a shine to me. One day in a conversation we were having about nothing much in particular, she asked me if I liked her daughter. I did, but did not know her well. She was a year older than me, an attractive slim brunette, 19 at the time, a bit shy and about to enter her second year of college in the fall. The woman then told me that her daughter liked me a lot and that she, the mother, considered me a nice, responsible, young man. I thought "responsible"? and said thanks but what did she mean. She said something like "a good boyfriend for a girl". OK, I thought. A day or two later, I was talking to her daughter and she, out of the blue, said My mother thinks you are a good looking boy, and I do too. I took it as a compliment, but nothing more. So we started spending time together, and within a couple of 'dates' she was all over me. We had sex several times in the next week or two (until the place closed) the first time initiated by her. As far as I know I was her first sex partner, at least for intercourse -- she was not at all sure of what to do, and I, though somewhat experienced, was still pretty new at it myself. We had great fun for that week and half, hanging out in now-empty cabins, sharing a single bunk. (Joan Baez has a great song with the line "how long has it been since I spent the whole night with someone in a single bed?"...whenever I hear it I am reminded of that summer.) I thought I had become a great lover, or died and gone to heaven, or whatever. It was not for a few weeks later and I was back in school myself that I fully realized that her mother had "selected" me somehow for her daughter, or at the very least had helped her daughter get over her virginity. It had never occurred to me that a mother would do something like that, and I was shocked when it finally dawned on me.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #125 on: Oct 9th, 2010, 4:42pm »
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on Oct 9th, 2010, 9:07am, leo_c wrote:
 
  Is unfortunate your AUNT allowed the girls to go so far as to point and touch you. That was going a bit to far and can understand your feeling self concious .  LEO C

 
I have to disagree.   The issue that should be answered is whether it was appropriate for the mother to require Talon to be naked in front of the girls in the first place given his embarrassment.  From what we've read, that was often was accepted during that era, and if the mother wanted to use the opportunity to educate her girls, it sounds proper to me.  
 
Talon's story didn't involve the aunt requiring the boy to stand there and present his genitals to the girls and let them explore it, that's something the kids did on their own.    It sounds as if she was passive and just let it played out the way kids naturally do such things.
 
What she is guilty of, if anything, is making a decision that any embarrassment he may endure was worth the educational experienced for her daughters.   She probably felt he'd quickly get over it, as did most everyone else of that era, particularly as can be seen from certain responses from Dear Abby and Ann.  But what she probably never anticipated was Talon's ultimate thoughts of the experience, but if she were around and knew, would probably be happy he had such good memories.  
 
So if education was her goal, and if his embarrassment of being naked in front of the girls solely for their education was worth the experience, then why would any additional embarrassment of letting the girls closely inspect his penis and balls through touching them be a problem either?   I actually applaud her for not interceding and allowing that to happen in a non-sexual environment that can be controlled as opposed to letting it happen when they're older in a way that could lead to an unwanted sexual situation.
 
Talon, if I'm wrong, tell me, but aren't you saying that you feel now it was not only appropriate for their mother to require you to be nude in front of her girls to let them see your dick and balls, but to also allow them to physically explore them as well?
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #126 on: Oct 10th, 2010, 8:04pm »
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BRAD, there certainly is no reason to doubt your account concerning the mother/ daughter thing. I have seen numerious times where the mom/ daughter relationship turns into a big sister/ little sister type relationship. They start dressing the same and share the same jewelry and hair style. Have seen it sometimes develop into a competative situation and get into disagrements.  
 Some mothers go out and activally persue suitable boy friends and potential mates for their daughters. They act like YENTA THE MATCHMAKER. In my own experience years ago, I had a mother who encuraged me to have sex with her daughter. I know it sounds strange to most but she would get me nude before I got in bed with the daughter. She went so far as to actually sat quietly and watch one night when I lost control and could not wait for her to leave. They had a big/little sister type of relationship. LEO C
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #127 on: Oct 11th, 2010, 4:41am »
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on Oct 9th, 2010, 4:42pm, Rodger_Dodger wrote:

 
I have to disagree.   The issue that should be answered is whether it was appropriate for the mother to require Talon to be naked in front of the girls in the first place given his embarrassment.  From what we've read, that was often was accepted during that era, and if the mother wanted to use the opportunity to educate her girls, it sounds proper to me.  
 
Talon's story didn't involve the aunt requiring the boy to stand there and present his genitals to the girls and let them explore it, that's something the kids did on their own.    It sounds as if she was passive and just let it played out the way kids naturally do such things.
 
What she is guilty of, if anything, is making a decision that any embarrassment he may endure was worth the educational experienced for her daughters.   She probably felt he'd quickly get over it, as did most everyone else of that era, particularly as can be seen from certain responses from Dear Abby and Ann.  But what she probably never anticipated was Talon's ultimate thoughts of the experience, but if she were around and knew, would probably be happy he had such good memories.  
 
So if education was her goal, and if his embarrassment of being naked in front of the girls solely for their education was worth the experience, then why would any additional embarrassment of letting the girls closely inspect his penis and balls through touching them be a problem either?   I actually applaud her for not interceding and allowing that to happen in a non-sexual environment that can be controlled as opposed to letting it happen when they're older in a way that could lead to an unwanted sexual situation.
 
Talon, if I'm wrong, tell me, but aren't you saying that you feel now it was not only appropriate for their mother to require you to be nude in front of her girls to let them see your dick and balls, but to also allow them to physically explore them as well?

 
You've pretty much hit it on the head.   Yes, the whole experience from me being denied the ability to cover my genitals in front of the girls to my aunt then being content to allow the girls to physically explore my penis and balls was like a rush of cold water, and made me feel weak, inferior and embarrassed.   It still took me a day or so to get over the initial shock of it.   But I must say I eventually warmed up to the idea of it and then begin to think positively about it, and that perhaps the mom knew it would ultimately be alright for me, thus, she was right all along.  
 
I sort of came to the conclusion that the girls were giving me attention and I liked it, because until then, I was the odd man out so to say - I just couldn't communicate with these girls as I shared few interests.   But now they had an interest in me, or more accurately, what dangled between my legs.   And I grew to like that interest.  Before I left their farm, I was actually wanting to repeat the same experience just a few days had mortified me.
 
I had one other episode with the girls before my summer vacation was over, but it wasn't orchestrated by the mother,   And not consistent with this thread.
 
 
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #128 on: Oct 11th, 2010, 11:50am »
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Would like to make a couple of thoughts involving TALON post. After rereading the post, I have to agree with ROGER DOGER that It appears that this was just casual childhood curiousity that would have happen had the AUNT been there are not. Other than having him nude, she just stood back and let things take it course. Is more than likely she thought it was a good experience for the girls and never considered how the boy would feel. For sure she went thru the same phase when she was young, so she was just letting the girls get thru their time of curisoty as she had.  
  Being a naturist now and doing extensive swimming nude as a youngster I can guaranty that girls are very curious beginning at a young age. Boys have something they dont have, so like anything they see, a flower, frog, ice cube, anything, they naturally want to touch it. Am sure that if a girl has a younger brother, at some time in a young girls life the mother has allowed the daughter to touch and examine the young boys penis, just to satisify their curiousity. Girls will want to look at a boys penis and balls, naturally because they dont have one. Unlike them, there is actually something they can see and handle. They learn that it can get it hard or soft. Later they learn they can control it and actually produce results that they can see. Females cant do that, its all internal. BTW, in my later teens, had a GF that loved to make me cum. The more cum that I had, the happier she was.
 I have an idea that most women want to accommidate their daughters in learning about males so long as it is in a safe, controlled situation. TALONs aunt more than likely considered that to be the case. She was not thinking anything was out of place. As a youth, many time the girls would look at my nudity when I was skinny dipping but I dont remember them ever toughing me. In most cases the girls were a few years older than me but were just satisified to look. They were content to do that smiling, giggling whispering among themselves thing. Is a different story but in my early teens, had a girl maybe 4 years my junior who would always be blatant in looking at my nudity if she was around. He mother was always there but never admonished her that she was being impolite in her stairing. Would not have surprised me if I had not been asked to allow her to touch me. Am sure it was one of those things where the mother thought it was good for the daughter to see things in a controlled setting. I did not mind the situation as the girl was young and curious but did feel that I was somehow being put on display for the girls benefit. More than likely, thats the way TALON felt with his aunt and cousins.  
 May be repeating myself, as a naturist, seems to me that girls are a lot more interested in looking at nude males than young boys are in looking at nude females. Is possible that the near female nudity in some advertising has a lot to do with it Maybe fellow naturist like ALLEN C can add his opinion. Am sure it would be similar to mine.  LEO C
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #129 on: Oct 11th, 2010, 12:24pm »
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While here, will share a recollection that I posted sometime in the past.  
 Had a girl playmate that was my age and also was an only child like me. On occasions, her mother would take us to a lake where I swam nude. I had to be 10 or younger at the time. One day for some unknown reason I got an erection. CONNIE asked her mother about it and I seem to remember the mother brushing the concern off. The mother did not suggest that I wrap a towel or anything around me to hide it but just let her daughter stand and look at me. Conceiling it might have made a suggestion that there was something wrong, forbided to see. Is possible that  the mother explained things to her daughter later but is doubtful that it would have made any sense to either of us. We were to young. More than likely the mother was satisified that her daughter knew what a boy looked like. That was in the 50s.  
  Is possible situations like that still happen since a lot of people have some kind of backyard pool today.  LEO C
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #130 on: Oct 11th, 2010, 1:55pm »
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Brad, fabulous finds those newspaper articles. Thanks for posting them.
 
Thanks to all for the recollections of cfnm, whatever the situation.
 
I've asked my father about nude swimming at the "Y". He said it did occur.  
 
I find these accounts believable. My own experience with mothers in the pool(mens) dressing room, during swim lessons during the 1970's was unremarkalbe then. Looking back  it does seem incredible, but I lived it.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #131 on: Oct 11th, 2010, 2:45pm »
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My school did not have a pool but my wife's did. She told me about peeking out of the girls locker room at the boys swimming naked. According to her the suits for the girls were so stretched out that she had to tie knots in them to make them fit and most of the time they didn't cover her boobs.  
 
I did take swim lessons during the summer in the early 1960s but it was at a pool in someone's back yard. Boys and girls wore swim suits. When my Boy Scout troop had our monthly swim night at the Y during the winter we all wore suits. Could be because those were open swim nights with lots of families and they didn't want to offend anybody. Not that I don't believe that other Y's didn't boys always swim nude it's just that it wasn't my experience in Rochester, NY
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #132 on: Oct 11th, 2010, 2:46pm »
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Talon - Sounds like you may have one more story, even though not thread related - please tell, after all, this IS the stories board!   Wink
 
 
Leo_C - I think you've analyzed the situation of which Talon spoke very aptly.   Talon of course is the best to interpret it all, and it sounds like he agrees.
 
Model33 - You're welcome!   Grin
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #133 on: Oct 11th, 2010, 2:49pm »
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Quote:
May be repeating myself, as a naturist, seems to me that girls are a lot more interested in looking at nude males than young boys are in looking at nude females. Is possible that the near female nudity in some advertising has a lot to do with it Maybe fellow naturist like ALLEN C can add his opinion. Am sure it would be similar to mine.  LEO C

 
Yes, my experience is that in the several instances I can recall of being nude in the presence of young girls, my age or even older, they were quite interested in looking at me and especially in the case of youngish baby sitters touching me as well. I have described elsewhere in some detail some of my early experiences being spanked, or witnessing other boys being spanked, and there was without question a type of aggressive voyeurism from the girls (and even women) during those experiences. I think it is possible to understand situations in which boys are spanked bare bottom and with exposed genitals, in my case always done by women, as likely having an intentional element of "education" for the girls present. In any case, the girls certainly looked on quite eagerly, and the adult woman or women could clearly see and I bet empathize with them.  
 
There are two other dimensions to those experiences worth mentioning:
 
1) Boys were always encouraged, often by adult women, to act manly in the face of such exposure and embarrassment. That is to not act chagrined by being stripped and spanked, or to whine or cry while being otherwise exposed to the gaze of girls. Why was that, do you suppose?
 
2) As I have written many times elsewhere, I think CFNM has a certain naturalness to it and I think it is part of our mutual (both genders) programming. It allows boys/men to advertise and girls/women to select. Anyone who has read even a few of my posts knows that I believe a great deal of male/female human interactions are sociobiological in origin. That is, much of how we behave, even in complex situations like gender relations, is instinctual, driven by detailed biological programs as it were (the old computer scientist in me, I guess).  
 
So -- given both factors -- it seems to me that the behavior of adult women -- exposing boys to girls and often encouraging them to be manly at the same time -- represents a type of sociobiological action, an educational push if you will, by these women.
 
Let me add -- hastily -- that had anyone tried to foist such an explanation on me when I in my teens, twenties or any age short of fifty, I would have likely snorted 'ridiculous!'. It is only as I have gotten older, and presumably had my genetic programming diminish (since in our species homo sapiens individuals seldom lived until recently beyond the age of 50), and had time to reflect on what I have experienced in my life, that I have come to realize how likely such explanations are. Watching younger people behave in the same ways I did, and realizing now how odd they were and are, given that I can recall what I was 'thinking' and 'feeling' at the time, can provide a remarkable education.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #134 on: Oct 11th, 2010, 5:57pm »
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 ALLEN, have tried hard to relate to your mention of being MANLY but just cant do it. Never experienced it. In my case I often heard the old line, I HAVE SEEN BOYS BEFORE, DONT BE CONCERNED OR EMBARRASSED. This always came from grown women who were smiling so it usually put me at ease and I felt there was no reason to desire any modesty. Only on a very few occasions did I feel awkward. One time in particular was my being exposed to a girl who was a classmate all thru grammer school. I managed to turn the whole thing around and wound up enjoying it.  
  Cant imagine any grown woman embarrassing or humiliating a young boy. Same goes for girls who were closer to me in age. Would not be in their best interest to make fun of a nude boy, although they would sometimes giggle. Boys would have gone swimming somewhere else.
  As for statement 2. I have raised one daughter and can assure you their thoughts and actions are pre programed in their genetic make up. The wanting to play house, play with dolls and cook and have tea parties come automatically to them. They will play with their brothers or other boys but they dont really want to. They want the boys to play house with them but the boys interest does not last to long. Maybe them looking at nude boys they are somehow getting revenge. Might also be one of those PENIS ENVY things that makes them always wanting to get boys in trouble. LEO C
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #135 on: Oct 11th, 2010, 6:47pm »
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Quote:
As for statement 2. I have raised one daughter and can assure you their thoughts and actions are pre programed in their genetic make up. The wanting to play house, play with dolls and cook and have tea parties come automatically to them. They will play with their brothers or other boys but they dont really want to. They want the boys to play house with them but the boys interest does not last to long. Maybe them looking at nude boys they are somehow getting revenge. Might also be one of those PENIS ENVY things that makes them always wanting to get boys in trouble. LEO C

 
Leo, girls playing house is a perfect example of the sociobiological imperative "women do community", just as boys playing with fire trucks or guns is a perfect example of "men do civilization" (see beneath my moniker, to the left). In the 70s a lot of the academic feminists insisted that these types of differences between boys and girls, and there are a ton of them, were all learned. "Learned" of course implies "can be re-educated". Now, 35 years later, they are all pretty much acknowledged to be natural, nature not nurture, though there are still a few hard-core types who hold to the learning idea.
 
I have never been a big fan of Freud's penis envy idea. Truth is, I know far, far more women who are glad they are NOT men than the reverse. Hard work being male, and dangerous, too. If it were not for the pejorative connotation, I personally would call female interest in penises as much predatory as anything else. But then we all know that women are not predatory...right? Actually, I think women regard penises, ultimately, as objects of great interest and desire, magic wands from which they can get pleasure, and, wonder of wonders, pregnant, and thus begin to be able to fulfill their part of "community". But of course, the human child being what it is -- helpless and in profound need of care, defense and resources for a minimum of four or five years -- she is much more likely to be successful if he is bound by the strictures of marriage.
 
(The fact that so many women these days feel they can have a child without being married is proof of this, I think: now women can earn enough to not absolutely need a husband for success in raising a child, especially through those first, crucial, few years.)
 
Also, to my mind "don't be concerned or embarrassed" is just one, short step away from "be manly". Another way of saying much the same thing.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #136 on: Oct 11th, 2010, 8:06pm »
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ALLEN, countless time I have heard a woman say that if there is a second life, they want to come back as a man. Never heard a man wanting to come back as a woman. WOULD YOU?  
 As for a woman having a child on her own without the benefit of having a man around to support them and finish the family thing. I know quite a few that would jump at a chance to have a male in the household. Somebody sold them a bad set of ideas ( feministHuh) and now they are stuck with what is called EXCESS BAGGAGE. Males are very reluctant to step in. Jealous ex husbands, children that are not theirs, constant custody fight and missing child support. Who needs it? That lifestyle started in the ghetto and every one picked up on a trendy yet self distructive lifestyle.  
  Also on second thought, will agree that the I HAVE SEEN IT ALL BEFORE could be transcribed into a BEING MANLY statement.  LEO C
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #137 on: Oct 11th, 2010, 8:31pm »
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Leo, you can't generalize about this. There are many women who have had a bad experience living with a man and feel free when living without one. There are also many women who want to live an independent lifestyle. I knew several of these types of women in my lifetime. Sure they would have sex with a man every now and then, but they just don't want to be tied up.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #138 on: Oct 11th, 2010, 8:41pm »
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on Oct 11th, 2010, 8:06pm, leo_c wrote:
ALLEN, countless time I have heard a woman say that if there is a second life, they want to come back as a man. Never heard a man wanting to come back as a woman. WOULD YOU?

 
Hmmm, year, I would.  I'd come back as Angelina Jolie and every night lay naked on my bed and do all kinds of naughty things to myself.   I'm getting horny just thinking about that...if I convert to Hindu, do I stand a chance of that?
 
 
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #139 on: Oct 11th, 2010, 9:46pm »
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on Oct 11th, 2010, 8:06pm, leo_c wrote:
ALLEN, countless time I have heard a woman say that if there is a second life, they want to come back as a man. Never heard a man wanting to come back as a woman. WOULD YOU?  

 
Leo, there are many men who have had an operation to become women in this lifetime. I have also known several of these men personally myself who are now women for all facts and purposes. Also there are many gay males who prefer to play the female role, and I have no doubt that many of them would prefer to be female in another lifetime.  
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #140 on: Oct 12th, 2010, 4:19am »
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I agree with "Leo C " about his statement  :  
 
"In my case I often heard the old line, I HAVE SEEN BOYS BEFORE, DONT BE CONCERNED OR EMBARRASSED. This always came from grown women who were smiling so it usually put me at ease and I felt there was no reason to desire any modesty"
 
I have not a great experience about CFMN situations except in medical situations and more seldom locker rooms when I was a student with a PE teacher women entering in the room or having a view at the room  but each time it was like "Leo C" is saying, rather a middle age or old woman who could have been my mother or at least a very older sister, and by using these words, they tried rather to make me less shy and more comfortable with the examination undressed.
 
Of course, they did not giggle and if they smile, it was to be nice with me, at least it was what I thought, not to express the pleasure that they had to see me undressed and under their control.
 
may be I was naive and I am wrong.
 
but it is true that women used often the words " I have seen boys before, don't be embarrassed"  
 
Nevertheless, in the army,  the non commissioners officers or military doctors when they wanted us to be naked were saying the same " we had seen before a lot of genitals and buttocks bare of young me, so don't make a fuss with being naked and don't try to protect you with your hands and  it was forbidden because it was not manly!
 
As it is said by "Allan C", it was the same with women, when they used the words" I have seen boys before, don't be concerned or embarrassed", it means also that  they thought that it was not manly for a boy to be modest as all adults thought it at that time and they wanted to make us share this opinion, and for most of the boys they succeeded in it.
 
For the second part of the comments of "Leo C" it is different  when he said :
"Only on a very few occasions did I feel awkward. One time in particular was my being exposed to a girl who was a classmate all thru grammer school. I managed to turn the whole thing around and wound up enjoying it".  
 
I know that I would have really been embarrassed to be undressed in front of a girl of my age when I was a student.  
 
But may be I have not well understood the comment of "Leo C" , may be he is saying that he was embarrassed as an adult to be in a medical situation with a former girl classsmate when he was in grammar school and who reconized him and in this case it was very different.
 
I don't think that it would have embarrassed me really in that last case but as I was never in co-ed schools, it could not have happened to me!    
 
As an adult,  it can happen accidentally in a locker'room of gym that a woman entered and saw me undressed  but it is never an issue for me now.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #141 on: Oct 12th, 2010, 5:32am »
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ALLEN, countless time I have heard a woman say that if there is a second life, they want to come back as a man. Never heard a man wanting to come back as a woman. WOULD YOU?  
 As for a woman having a child on her own without the benefit of having a man around to support them and finish the family thing. I know quite a few that would jump at a chance to have a male in the household. Somebody sold them a bad set of ideas ( feministHuh) and now they are stuck with what is called EXCESS BAGGAGE. Males are very reluctant to step in. Jealous ex husbands, children that are not theirs, constant custody fight and missing child support. Who needs it? That lifestyle started in the ghetto and every one picked up on a trendy yet self distructive lifestyle.  
  Also on second thought, will agree that the I HAVE SEEN IT ALL BEFORE could be transcribed into a BEING MANLY statement.  LEO C

 
Well, first off, a man saying he would want to come back as a woman would be in some quarters tantamount to saying he is unmanly, and in others to saying he is gay. So you are not going to have many men admitting to themselves much less others that they would like to become women, now or in some after life. That said, and as long as we are being hypothetical, yes, I would find being a woman very interesting and would welcome the chance, particularly if I could remember well what it was like being male. It would present an extraordinary opportunity to understand what I think is the most profound difference in our species, gender. And it might be fun (as long as I was beautiful, that is).
 
And I agree wholeheartedly with you, Leo, about many women regarding the feminism of the 70s (which still is dominant form of feminism, no matter how often people since then have tried to dismantle or change it) as having sold them a bill of goods. In fact I know two women quite well who have said that to me within the last year, both in their early sixties and one actually teaches a college-level course on feminist political theory!
 
But that does not change the fact that I also know or know of many successful women (i.e., make a lot of money, or enough to support themselves and a kid or two by themselves...lawyers, psychologists, a couple of marketing execs, etc.), who have had children intentionally, often while in their early 40s, without a husband. That is not a dominant trend, but it certainly is common.
 
That does not mean that some poor woman with a couple a kids and a husband on the lam would not like some help in raising them. Indeed, that proves my original point -- women need men to raise homo sapiens offspring successfully, and so sociobiology has given them many tools with which to attract us into committment; if it had not succeeded in building that into the social fabric, we might well not be here at all.
 
When the chips are down, women want men to be, more than anything else, manly. Mothers want that of their sons, sisters of their brothers, wives of husbands, etc. Because that his how our species made it this far. When the shit really hit the fan, the adult males could be expected to tough it out, tough it through for the betterment of the whole community/tribe/village/nation/civilization to the point of their own death if need be, especially those adult males in their late teens and early 20s. Hell, if we didn't have that 'capacity' we wouldn't have wars.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #142 on: Oct 12th, 2010, 8:28am »
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 When I have heard the COME BACK as A MAN statement, it has always been in a contecks that the woman is complaining that life is easier for a man. Was never a trans gender thing.
  EASTER MAN- The i have seen it before statement came from older women when I was young. Never was necessary in an adult medical situation.  
  The classmate I was referring to, we were both 14 at the time. Her mother was there and I think I was being used for educational purposes. She was an only child. After I got comfortable with the situation, had no choice in the matter, she got a long hard look at what a young teenagers full blown erection looked like. I remember feeling very fuzzy and hoped she enjoyed it.  
  ALLEN, was never around successful carrier women who raised a child on their own. Only ones I come in contact with are the ones who thought having a child would lead to the house with the picket fence. Did not work out for them. Having a child out of wedlock is/was a trendy thing that started in the ghetto, was glorified on TV and is common all over. Why an I telling you that? You are old enough to have seen it evolve yourself!  LEO C
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #143 on: Oct 12th, 2010, 2:40pm »
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"Allan c" :
 
all your comments on that discussion are very clever  
 
I want to add a comment on one point, it is when  you said ; "yes, I would find being a woman very interesting and would welcome the chance, particularly if I could remember well what it was like being male. It would present an extraordinary opportunity to understand what I think is the most profound difference in our species, gender. And it might be fun (as long as I was beautiful, that is)".
 
I want to make you notice that your wish is a subject of a few movies where either men become women, either women become men and each of them followed to think like persons of their former gender but with the body of the opposite gender.
 
Generally, these movies are rather situation comedies.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #144 on: Oct 12th, 2010, 2:43pm »
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"Leo C" :  
 
thank you for your explanations.
 
I was never in a situation like you with a girl of my age at 14, so I cannot know how I would have reacted even if I presume that I would have been very mortified.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #145 on: Oct 12th, 2010, 2:43pm »
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 Mentioning my classmate seeing me nude, reminded me of something I have not thought about in a long time. My mother would often use the phrase STANDING AT ATTENTION. That meant I had an erection. I remember my mother commenting to the girl and her mother something like I WAS STANDING AT ATTENTION FOR THEM. I dont think it was supposed to be demeaning or humiliating, just a comment on my condition, something cute to say and maybe to make light of the situation.  Both the mother and daughter were very pretty, was a bit proud to have one for them. Is a good chance mime was the first one she had ever seen.
 My SIL has recently started to comment that I am HAPPY if I have an erection. Anyone out there have or remember any cute comments on their erections?  LEO C
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #146 on: Oct 12th, 2010, 2:52pm »
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 EASTER MAN, is a good chance you would have gotten use to the situation fast. As long as your nudity is not discussed and ignored, you forget about about it. I am not saying you are not aware all the time, the thought does keep coming up, especially the first time. Thats when you get hard. Thats something you cant help but women usually ignore it. If they do comment it is in a joking, cute way. Dont think they are ever offended.  LEO C
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #147 on: Oct 12th, 2010, 3:45pm »
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I think that Robert Heinlein had the right idea when he called a man's erection a gallant response that any healthy woman would take as a compliment. I'm paraphrasing of course.  
 
Not sure what actor once said that when he did a nude scene he would apologize upfront to his female costar for any physical reaction that may or may not occur. He didn't want them to be offended by any reaction because we all know that the penis has a mind of it's own.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #148 on: Oct 12th, 2010, 4:39pm »
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on Oct 12th, 2010, 3:45pm, steveoutdoorrec wrote:
I think that Robert Heinlein had the right idea when he called a man's erection a gallant response that any healthy woman would take as a compliment. I'm paraphrasing of course.

 
My experience with women is that they are very erection-friendly.   I've talked to girls about going to nude beaches and many of their response is that seeing a naked guy doesn't do that much for them, unless he's got an erection, then it's a hot thing for them.
 
One girl I met on the Internet wanted to go to Blacks in San Diego with me.   She told me that when a man has an erection, it is complimenting the woman, and she appreciates it.  We were both laying out nude (she had a beautiful naked butt), when she told me this.  The thought of exposing my boner to her on what was effectively our first date made it erotic for me, so I turned with it pointing at her, she looked down and saw it and quietly said "yay!"  while lightly clapping her hands showing applause.   We both laughed about it, and I promptly kissed her for the first time.
 
Generally, nude beach etiquette requires men not to have an exposed erection.  That is typically, though, a rule made by males against other males, because based upon women with which I've discussed this - provided the guy isn't parading it around for the women to see (flashing it), and provided he's not exposing it to any kids, ALL the women I've talked to said they're okay with men having erections, or alternatively, *prefer* seeing the men with erections.  
 
Indeed, one of the goals of girls prickteasing is to be able to see the guy stand at attention (see my "Actual Survey" post)
T
he genders think very differently about men getting erections.
 
 
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #149 on: Oct 12th, 2010, 4:44pm »
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Easter-man-10 you said with regard to women viewing boys, " I HAVE SEEN BOYS BEFORE, DONT BE CONCERNED OR EMBARRASSED. "  
 
If a man said "I have seen girls before, don't be concerned or embarrassed," no one would believe him.  I have always understood that statement to mean, "I really want you to get naked for me."   Shakespeare said, "Methinks the lady doth protest too much!"
 
So if a woman ever says that to you, take her up on it, you will both enjoy it.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #150 on: Oct 12th, 2010, 5:04pm »
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I found this Dear Abby column (one from a different rag was previously referenced) posted on another forum, and am cut & pasting it here (btw, a trick you can use when you want the copy embedded links on a forum's post is to "quote" the original poster's post then copy it.)
 
 
DEAR ABBY: My sister has a beach front summer place on a lake.- She also has two boys, ages 8 and 10, and two girls, 9 and 12. When the weather permits, she requires the boys play on the beach and in the water completely nude. However, she has the girls wear swim suits. We have two children, a boy 9 and a girl 11, who would enjoy a vacation at the lake, but I don't like this nude boy bit.   My husband says I am wrong.
 
When I discussed it with my sister, she said it was good to bring up boys without secrets from their sisters, and I should do the same. I half jokingly asked her if she thought Dear Abby would agree with her and she bet you would because you had a pliant sense of fundamental realities. I agreed to write to you and show her your answer. I also agreed to concur with it. What do you say?
 
DEAR MRS.:  I'm inclined to agree with your sister and your husband.  The fundamental realities are that boys and girls are very different.  I concur with your sister that it is alright to have the boys nude in the presence of the girls providing them an opportunity to see the "secrets" boys have that girls don't, yet not having the girls follow suit, or rather lack thereof.   It certainly is a very good way to satisfy the girls' curiosity as to what boys look like while in the appropriate surroundings, but I agree with it being different for the girls and that they should wear swimsuits at all times when in the presence of the boys.   Although this may seem unfair to the boys, girls require more privacy than boys and it would be inappropriate to insist that the girls comply with the no-swimsuit rule.   But is sounds like your sister's boys already understand and accept that.   However, the boys should also enjoy the experience of playing and being in the presence of the girls completely naked,   but given how boys usually will doff all clothes in haste and without care when at the town swimming hole, I'm guessing your son won't require too much pressure to comply with your sister's rule.

 
 
Here's an image of the actual news article I found:
 

 
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #151 on: Oct 12th, 2010, 5:04pm »
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Quote:
When I have heard the COME BACK as A MAN statement, it has always been in a contecks that the woman is complaining that life is easier for a man. Was never a trans gender thing.

 
Women complaining to men, with the assumption they will fix it, is clearly a sociobiological mechanism, just as children complaining to adult women and mothers is too. Built in responses to problems they deem not in their realm. And built in reactions in men...the reason women get so much is that men clearly accept women's complaints and act on them, try to fix them (no matter how well we try to insulated ourselves from doing so). In fact, getting back to 1970s feminism again (I seem to like beating that dead horse lately), one of my most astute adult female friends said once to me that the reason so much had changed so quickly in the late 70s and early 80s for women, legally, jobs, etc., was precisely because men were in power and heard their complaints. And then acted as men do when women complain as a group -- they fixed them according to what the women wanted. And then my friend, now somewhat disillusioned with some aspects of feminism, added Damnit! Her view is that women more or less sold themselves a bill of goods....got a lot but paid far too much for it.
 
As for experiencing being a woman...one major reason I would go for it is to find out during sex what all that screaming is about...
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #152 on: Oct 12th, 2010, 6:32pm »
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I cut & pasted this story off the Internet about 5 or 6 years ago.  It was on an Internet blog or school BB (I think?).  I don't know if it was contrived or a true girl's account, although I did read a verified account similar to this at a high school in Fargo, ND.
 
If anyone knows the original source, please post.
 

Written by "Dianne"  
 
In response to the inquiries about my experiences there, I must say that what we experienced was typical of the days, but not of modern high schools.   I graduated from the high school in 1966.
 
In those days, it had one of the few remaining swimming programs in which the boys still swam nude.   During their swim class, no females were allowed in the pool area as the girls swam at different times.  But unlike the boys, the girls had to wear those ugly one-piece bathing suits.   I don't know why it was different for girls, but the girls didn't mind the inequity.  
 
No females were allowed in the pool area when the boys were using it.   The girls accessed the swimming pool through  double swing doors, which were locked most of the time, probably to keep the guys out as much as to allow the girls into the swimming area when the boys were using it.   Leading from the girls changing area was a small exit corridor that lead up to these doors.  The girls could walk from the locker room into this small corridor and be out of view from the locker area and our coaches' office, which overlooked much of the locker room.   This corridor was also used to store  our sports equipment in plastic bins, which provided us an excuse to go back there frequently.  
The school was built in the early 1920s, and the brick and mortar were eroding badly.  In addition, the metal hinges on the doors had rusted from the pool's humidity.   There was a broken tennis racket we kept by the doors and if wedged in the right spot one of the door jams, a one inch gap between the jam and the wall would result.  When the lights in the corridor were off, if a girl put her eye up against the opening, she could see into the entire pool area no differently than if she were standing there in the pool area.
 
The boys undressed in the locker room so when they entered the pool area they were already nude.  During my volleyball class, which was held in the basketball court, some of us would sneak back into the corridor and watch the guys line up on the other side of the pool for roll call.  From this vantage, the guys would be directly facing us and we could see the fronts of their entire naked bodies from toe to head and everything in between.  As they stood there not moving, it gave the girls an unbelievable opportunity to contrast how much each of the guys had developed into a man.    
 
The diving board was directly in front of our doors.  As the guys would line up for diving practice they would be just a few feet in front of the doors from which we were peeping.   As they approached the doors, their penises and balls would be swinging just a few feet in front of our faces, they'd turn, then we could get a great view of their naked butts as well.   You can't imagine how hard it was to suppress our laughter, particularly when one big-mouth "big man on campus" was swinging his goods in front of us, and we realized he wasn't such a big man after all.
 
We could hear their conversations and the typical b.s. they throw around when it's only the guys.   Knowing we were privy to such private conversations while also observing their other secrets was both funny and sexy.  
 
Bearing in mind that in the 1960s, the closest an adolescent girl could ever get to seeing a boy's penis was either in a National Geographic article about tribal Africa, or an accidental glimpse at a family member in the bath.  So for us, this was the mother load - we got to see virtually every single boy in our class up close stark naked, and we were loving it.   We would even play games challenging each other to determine which guy had the cutest butt, the largest penis or the biggest pair of balls.    
 
What was really a kick is to be in an algebra class an hour later talking to the same boy you just inspected from head to foot.   As we'd chat, my mind would be saying "and I know exactly what your dick looks like!"
 
The girls tried to maintain a code of silence such that it wouldn't ruin a good situation, but even so a female gymnastic coach caught us a couple of times.  She looked at us, shaking her head and would say, "that kind of behavior can get you a quick ticket to the principal."   But then turned and walked away leaving us to continue.
 
One of the girls claim that her sister had caught the coach doing the exact same thing in a previous year,  and to avoid getting into problems, she would ignore the girls peeping activity letting them do it to their heart's content.   She supposedly walked up on one with her face against the door and said "when your through watching the boys line up for roll call, would you please bring the nets" and just left.  After that, the girls felt less concerned about getting caught, and the crowd around the gaping door slit got bigger.
 
For that matter, it seemed none of the female coaches ever mentioned the corridor.  It was as though it was a sanctioned peep show for girls.    
 
It is my understanding that after I graduated they changed the program to where the boys also wore swimsuits, which if I'm honest about it, feel that the change was very unfortunate, at least for the girls that came after us!

 
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #153 on: Oct 13th, 2010, 2:48am »
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There was a similar poster on the old Topix forum about this subject of boys nude swimming at school, on the Education Forum of all places. She described in detail how as a HS student she and the other girls at the school spied on the boys during swim class from a room used as a store room next to the girls locker room which had a good direct view of the pool.
What is interesting about her posts is that she said that nearly every girl at the school took turns to look at the boys throughout the school year. She even described the different reactions of the girls while watching the boys, especially when it was a new girl being introduced into the game for the first time. Some went red with embarrassment and other different reactions.  
She also said that the girls gave nicknames to many of the boys according to the shape and size of their genitals, like pencil, potatoes, horsy, etc. And as Brad describes in his account the boys never got to know about it because it was a well kept secret by the girls, even though the boys were in the same class with them during school hours. She said that nearly every new girl at the school was introduced to this peeking.
It is very rare that one gets posts such as these from the girls themselves, who are obviously into middle age today and still cherish the memories.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #154 on: Oct 13th, 2010, 6:03am »
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I have read this story before in the old topix "forum education"
 
I remember well that there was a lot of messages to say that it was not true because the woman who relates this was obviously trying to titillate men and enjoyed to do it and some of her answers were not serious.
 
After reading a lot of messages on this forum, I doubt that it was credible, even if it could happen accidentally that girls had a peek on the swimming pool where boys were naked or that girls tried to spy if they could to have a view about  the naked  classmates, it would have been normal, boys would have done the same, it was only curiosity about the opposite gender at a time where the two genders were more separated than today at least during teenagehood.
 
but not in this way, quite frequent and normal
read many messages and the answers of the woman and we can see that she is not credible, it is too much, she answers more like a "whore" or a "pervert devil" than like a mature woman.
For me that story is pure fantasy but almost similar situations could have existed.
 
Anyway, I don't believe that such a situation could have lasted for a long time in this school without a rumor in the school that the boys had heard or the teachers and one girl would have talked, in my opinion it was impossible to keep a secret like that more than one term of year school, they were young girls, it was not the kind of secret that you could keep without giggling or teasing a boy or talking loudly about it and being heard by teachers or school authorities and I don't believe that the school authorities would have "closed their eyes" about that.
 
If it was known that girls were spying at the boys in the nude,  may be a  few parents of the boys would have complained and without sucess because the modesty and privacy of boys was not a real issue for the school authorities, but certainly more important, some parents of the girls would have complained, not to protect the modesty of the boys but to protect their daughters from an undecent view at the naked boys and the decency of girls was very much important at that time and their complaint would have been taken in account by the school authorities, there would have been an inquiry to see if it was true and after that the walls and doors of the store room or the locker room and the swimming pool would have been more closed and restaured if necessary.
 
It would have been more credible now because the decency of girls is not a great issue as it was in the past but now it is the modesty of boys which is an issue.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #155 on: Oct 13th, 2010, 12:41pm »
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I don't think anyone is arguing that male only nudity didn't happen but I, for one, never heard of any female coaches of male swim teams.  
 
I used to swim at our local Y with my Boy Scout troop on open swim nights and we all wore suits as did all the people swimming. On our camp outs we'd often skinny dip but not in the presence of females. We were all used to showering together after gym class so it wasn't a nudity taboo amongst us but one in the general public. That's why it felt wicked to be skinny dipping at all.
 
It was only when I was in my 20s and a free spirit of the times (1960s) that I had any experience with coed skinny dipping or swimming naked with clothed females present.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #156 on: Oct 13th, 2010, 12:47pm »
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CFNM ( sort of) swimming happens a lot at certain clothing optional beaches. Lots of time some of the ladies wear suits and the men are nude.  I've seen many couples like that, But of course, it's a long way from there to mixed CFNM swimming in schools.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #157 on: Oct 13th, 2010, 2:04pm »
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Regarding Dianne's story that she and other girls found a way to spy on the boys swimming nude, I find this story emimently plausible.  As nude swimming for boys and not for girls was common in the 60's I would be surprised if someplace the girls didn't find a way to spy on the boys.  I find particularly interesting is that the female coaches knew about it and did nothing.   Perhaps they had the same attitude as Abigail Van Buren.  
 
What is somewhat harder to understand is how something like this could remain a secret particularly when the girls apparently teased the boys about seeing them nude.  Certainly if it was the other way around, architectural changes would have been made.  
 
The fact that the story exists also indicates something of the times, that it in fact was not approved of for girls to watch boys swimming in the nude.  
 
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #158 on: Oct 13th, 2010, 3:29pm »
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Without repeating it here I have just made a commment about this in post no.6 in "Down at the Swimming Hole".
In a few words, although it was considered improper for girls to watch older boys swimming nude, no fuss would have been made when it was known that the girls actually watched the boys somehow.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #159 on: Oct 13th, 2010, 6:40pm »
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Something's wrong. I went to www.newspaperarchive.com and looked up the Dear Abby shown above and the answers Abby gives are completely different! Abby's reply is: "I'm sorry to disappoint your sister, but my sense of fundamental realities isn't as "pliant" as she thinks it is. Ask your sister how come if it's "good" to bring up boys without secrets from their sisters, it isn't equally good to bring up girls without secrets from their brothers."
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #160 on: Oct 13th, 2010, 7:01pm »
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Take another look at the clipping and really look at the font and layout. The font is different from the story on the left and Abby. Just look at the right side of the Abby column. It isn't justified. This may very well be hoax.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #161 on: Oct 13th, 2010, 7:29pm »
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on Oct 13th, 2010, 7:01pm, steveoutdoorrec wrote:
Take another look at the clipping and really look at the font and layout. The font is different from the story on the left and Abby. Just look at the right side of the Abby column. It isn't justified. This may very well be hoax.

 
You may be right.   I cut & pasted it off of dickflash.com, which I peruse for the rare item of interest.  It references newspaperarchive.com as well, and I too have seen it in different versions.  
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #162 on: Oct 13th, 2010, 7:51pm »
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on Oct 13th, 2010, 12:41pm, steveoutdoorrec wrote:
I don't think anyone is arguing that male only nudity didn't happen but I, for one, never heard of any female coaches of male swim teams.  
 
I used to swim at our local Y with my Boy Scout troop on open swim nights and we all wore suits as did all the people swimming. On our camp outs we'd often skinny dip but not in the presence of females. We were all used to showering together after gym class so it wasn't a nudity taboo amongst us but one in the general public. That's why it felt wicked to be skinny dipping at all.
 
It was only when I was in my 20s and a free spirit of the times (1960s) that I had any experience with coed skinny dipping or swimming naked with clothed females present.

 
I mentioned the same thing in a previous post.  I swam at the Y in swim classes in the 1960s, and am fairly certain we wore swimsuits, even though it was an all-male class and no females were there.  Why the policy was different is anybodies guess?
 
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #163 on: Oct 13th, 2010, 7:56pm »
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Quote:
Take another look at the clipping and really look at the font and layout. The font is different from the story on the left and Abby. Just look at the right side of the Abby column. It isn't justified. This may very well be hoax.

 
I seem to recall newspapers of that era frequently having different fonts and mis-alignments. I am pretty sure the technology back then was a type of cut-and-paste from different sources, then a photo of the made-up page, resulting in a blue positive on aluminum sheets which were then printed onto paper. I know for a fact that was the technology used by many printers of small runs, like a local newspaper would have, back in the 1950s and 60s. In fact I think that technology survived until fairly recently, like the late 80s/early 90s, when computer-driven processes changed the technology of publishing. I think what happened was that the photolithography of the late 1900s, which had been used until the 1940s or so mainly for pictures, became improved and cheaper to the point where the entire newspaper page was printed using it.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #164 on: Oct 14th, 2010, 6:48pm »
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Are there any other search engines other than, say, Google or Bing and that newspaper archives?
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #165 on: Oct 14th, 2010, 7:00pm »
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on Oct 14th, 2010, 6:48pm, Brad wrote:
Are there any other search engines other than, say, Google or Bing and that newspaper archives?

 
 
There are many.
Google "search engine".
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #166 on: Oct 15th, 2010, 9:30am »
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on Oct 12th, 2010, 3:45pm, steveoutdoorrec wrote:

Not sure what actor once said that when he did a nude scene he would apologize upfront to his female costar for any physical reaction that may or may not occur. He didn't want them to be offended by any reaction because we all know that the penis has a mind of it's own.

 
It was George C. Scott.  I forget the name of the actress and the movie but some one who has to know could probably dig it up somewhere.
 
To paraphrase what he said, "If, during the course of the scene, I get an erection, and it offends you, I apologize.  If I don't get an erection, and that offends you, I also apologize.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #167 on: Oct 15th, 2010, 12:00pm »
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 TALON, your story is pretty consistent with my memories of how young girls acted. I dont remember ever doing the SHOW ME YOURS, I WILL SHOW YOU MINE THING. My memory, the girls were a few years older than me and since I was the last boy my age who swam nude, at this swimming hole, not my choice, they would be insistant and convincing that I spend time around them. There was never any touching but I remember the whispering and giggling. This was all out in the open. Some were at the age where they were developing breast and a figure and although I was not sexually interested at 10-11, I did get some enjoyment of them allowing me to see down there suits.  
  These things always occured when there were at least 2 or more of them. Dont remember if I ever got an erection but probably did. In your case, the night your cousins had you lift your shirt and looked at and touched you, you were doing something forbidden, secret. Although you were young, that in itself would cause you to get an erection and understandably the girls enjoyed it. You were the only male available to satisify their curiousaty. Perhaps if you had been out in the open swimming, their mother might have approved of them touching and exaimining  you. You will never know but it sounds as if she approved of their learning experience. Might have been a good experience for you also since it would have been in a controlled enviroment.  
  At the age of 14, I was put on display, so to speak, for a female classmate. Was a set up and in a controlled situation, for her education I assume. I was older and sexually aware so I did end up displaying a HARD erection for her which I remember to this day. Once into it, I enjoyed having her look at it. Never touched it, it did it all on it own. My mother even commented about it to the girl and her mother, as if they could not tell.  
  Sure sounds like you had a pleasant experience. Looking back, happenings like that sure stay vivid in you memory. To bad you could not have done that again when you were a bit older.  LEO C
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #168 on: Oct 15th, 2010, 2:31pm »
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on Oct 15th, 2010, 9:30am, Yellow_Fever wrote:

 
It was George C. Scott.  I forget the name of the actress and the movie but some one who has to know could probably dig it up somewhere.
 
To paraphrase what he said, "If, during the course of the scene, I get an erection, and it offends you, I apologize.  If I don't get an erection, and that offends you, I also apologize.

 
Right.  I remember that was the nude scene with Angela Pleasence (Ghost of Christmas Past) in the 1984 Christmas Carol during the revisiting of Ebenezer's first trip to the brothel.
 
No wait, sorry, my memory is off.  It was Patton.   It was that make-up scene between him and General Bradley after that big argument they got into (I seemed to remember it involved some slapping.)
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #169 on: Oct 15th, 2010, 4:01pm »
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 Had never given it any thought but it occured to me that providing an education for a girl probably is as common today as it was years ago. Sure there a books and pictures on the internet that were not available years ago that they can view now but their is no substitute for the real thing.  
  Would suspect it would take place in a back yard pool area instead of out in the open. Also might occure in a household with stay home alone youngsters the sister being older than the boy. The sister being the one in charge. Curiosities could not have changed that much over the years.   LEO C
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #170 on: Oct 15th, 2010, 4:06pm »
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No big mystery in my house. The bathroom had a curtain instead of a door. You couldn't help but catch a glimpse from time to time.  
 
We camped at a small campground in MA when our son was around 11 and his sister was 9. There was a shower for males, females and families. Our kids said they were going to take a shower and use the family one. My wife and I just said ok and never mentioned it again. Always wondered if there was any comparing going on. If there was and they had questions they would have come to us.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #171 on: Oct 15th, 2010, 8:05pm »
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on Oct 15th, 2010, 4:01pm, leo_c wrote:
 Had never given it any thought but it occured to me that providing an education for a girl probably is as common today as it was years ago. Sure there a books and pictures on the internet that were not available years ago that they can view now but their is no substitute for the real thing.  
  Would suspect it would take place in a back yard pool area instead of out in the open. Also might occure in a household with stay home alone youngsters the sister being older than the boy. The sister being the one in charge. Curiosities could not have changed that much over the years.   LEO C

 
I disagree that it's the same.   The concept of educating kids today is far, far different.  Any kid that knows how to boot a computer can get on Google and turn the search filter off.    That child can Google anything and see live action porn 10 times harder than what was legal for even adults as recent as the 1970s.
 
And even if the search filters are on, go to Wikipedia and see just about anything.   Those young girls could see it all today, such as :
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erection
 
 
or alternatively:
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penis
 
 
And if they want to see something live action, they can see this (play the embedded video):
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ejaculation
 
 
And when I was, say, 12, you bet I'd be all over the Internet when mom and dad weren't around.   Why bother peeping into the shower if you can do it on the Internet at any time?
 
Frankly, I think it has unleashed demons that we'll never be able to put back in the bottle.   You can download videos of horses banging naked women, kiddy porn, and even such things as real executions as they occur.    
 
The sex thing for kids - I'm not saying sex education is bad, but I don't think young kids should have any kind of access to what we can now download easily and anywhere (except China).   The stories told here such as Allans, yours and Talons present a far more innocent world of children exploring their bodies in a healthy way.   But what we now have in society blows my mind - all accessible to a young kid with a laptop hiding under his bedsheets watching.   All I had were torn out pages from the Playboys the lady next door tossed in the trash after she found them in her husband's garage.
 
It will be interesting to see how this manifests itself when the next generation matures sexually given they've seen it all by the time they are 14.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #172 on: Oct 15th, 2010, 9:08pm »
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on Oct 13th, 2010, 7:01pm, steveoutdoorrec wrote:
Take another look at the clipping and really look at the font and layout. The font is different from the story on the left and Abby. Just look at the right side of the Abby column. It isn't justified. This may very well be hoax.

 
It's NOT a hoax!  Abbey gave two different answers!  I clearly remember both of these columns.  The first was a few years prior to the second, and I remember reading about the boys who could swim naked and free, in public, even when girls were around.  I was about 13 years old, and this information, published in a newspaper, about things that were unknown to me, was fascinating and intriguing and eye-opening to me.  I remembered it for a very long time, hoping to eventually get my chance to try this out.
 
Then she published it again, but gave a very different response.  I was really shocked and disappointed.  I also doubted my own memories - until now, when the earlier piece shows up in this forum.  Thanks very much for putting this false memory to rest; I was right the first time.  Abbey seems to have changed her tune as the times changed.
 
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #173 on: Oct 15th, 2010, 9:37pm »
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 BRAD, you are preaching to the choir. I think I have seen more changes than you have. Unfortunately, we will never be able to put thing back the way they were.  
  My point is that there is no substitute for the real thing. Both girls and boys will want to see the real thing and when they do it should be done in a controlled atmosphere. Instill in them that there is nothing wrong with theirs or someone elses nudity. Better that the parents allow them to experience it instead of them being under the influence of drugs or booze.  
 A few months ago I was part of that discovery or experience for a young girl. Think it worked out just fine. Just wish the girl had something better than a gray haired 66 yro to look at. I might have destroyed her curiousaty in males forever.  LEO C
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #174 on: Oct 20th, 2010, 4:47pm »
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I think the focus here should not be on Abby/Ann and their response, but the positions taken by the women writing in.   It portrays an attitude of a past era many women had.   Perhaps it has to do with their perspective on their standing in society, ergo, pre-women's-lib.   June Cleaver never questioned her role, nor did Ward.
 
What is interesting in this attitude was that many women felt that "boys should not keep secrets from the girls" while concurrently believing that it was improper for boys to see what girls looked like naked.   And this even went to the extreme of women requiring the boys to be naked in front of these girls to allow the girls to see the boys' genitals.    
 
The woman writes to Abby not saying "my sister thinks it's natural for boys to skinny-dip, and because they enjoy it so, she allows it even when the daughters are present".  Instead, the reason the mother believes the boys should be naked in front of the girls is to prevent the boys "from hiding their secrets" from the girls - in other words, the mom wanted the boys to be naked in front of the girls specifically because it gave the girls an opportunity to look at the boys' dicks, and, she encouraged her sister to also have her son naked in front of her sister to let her daughter see her brother's dick as well.    That's what's so surprising - the unabashed intent the mother had as to why she wanted the boys to be naked.
 
In the other stories, the terminology used was that the mother felt girls looking naked boys and seeing what they looked like was "proper", whereas it was not proper for the reverse.   Again, in other words, the moms felt it was preferred for the boys to be naked in front of the girls not because they enjoyed swimming that way, but instead, to provide these girls an opportunity to view the penises and balls on the boys.
 
This underscores that the inequity of the day was not only accepted, but encouraged by so many women of that era.   The stories of some of our older members reinforces it.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #175 on: Oct 20th, 2010, 4:59pm »
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on Oct 20th, 2010, 4:47pm, Brad wrote:

 
In the other stories, the terminology used was that the mother felt girls looking naked boys and seeing what they looked like was "proper", whereas it was not proper for the reverse.  
 
This underscores that the inequity of the day was not only accepted, but encouraged by so many women of that era.   The stories of some of our older members reinforces it.

 
There was, and in some present people, a belief that males are not in control of their emotions and females must be protected from them. The same attitude that gives rise to blame a rape victim because she showed a little skin and was therefore asking for it because what man could stop himself from being uncontrollably aroused at a glimpse of (insert female body part here).  
 
By showing the girls naked boys and pointing out erections they were showing the girls the instrument of their potential down fall.  
 
That and this was about the only time many woman had the upper hand on males.  
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #176 on: Oct 20th, 2010, 5:13pm »
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on Oct 20th, 2010, 4:59pm, steveoutdoorrec wrote:

 
There was, and in some present people, a belief that males are not in control of their emotions and females must be protected from them. The same attitude that gives rise to blame a rape victim because she showed a little skin and was therefore asking for it because what man could stop himself from being uncontrollably aroused at a glimpse of (insert female body part here).  
 
By showing the girls naked boys and pointing out erections they were showing the girls the instrument of their potential down fall.  
 
That and this was about the only time many woman had the upper hand on males.  

 
 
Well, such an interpretation was obviously insane nonsense.
If women could cause men to lose control and become helpless animals simply by showing them some flesh, then the females had the upper hand.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #177 on: Oct 20th, 2010, 5:21pm »
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on Oct 20th, 2010, 5:13pm, PC wrote:

 
 
Well, such an interpretation was obviously insane nonsense.
If women could cause men to lose control and become helpless animals simply by showing them some flesh, then the females had the upper hand.

 
Well we know that it is insane nonsense now. But historically women were considered property and brainless. But a smart woman could control her man and get her way. Some things don't change
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #178 on: Oct 20th, 2010, 6:44pm »
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"Brad" :  
when you said that :"Again, in other words, the moms felt it was preferred for the boys to be naked in front of the girls not because they enjoyed swimming that way, but instead, to provide these girls an opportunity to view the penises and balls on the boys",  
it could have been for the two reasons, why only one?
 
And we must not forget also that at this time, a mother was certainly thinking that her daughter would marry one day and would have children, including sons, because all families hoped to have sons to save  the family name, and in that case, it was useful that she knew very soon to what looks a boy, even in young age.  
A daughter was supposed to have to care about boys as soon as she was grown up as a mother or an older sister or an aunt and the reverse was not true, a father did not care about his daughters, nor an uncle, or an older brother about younger sisters at that time.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #179 on: Oct 20th, 2010, 8:48pm »
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on Oct 20th, 2010, 6:44pm, easter_man_10 wrote:
"Brad" :  
when you said that :"Again, in other words, the moms felt it was preferred for the boys to be naked in front of the girls not because they enjoyed swimming that way, but instead, to provide these girls an opportunity to view the penises and balls on the boys",  
it could have been for the two reasons, why only one?
 
And we must not forget also that at this time, a mother was certainly thinking that her daughter would marry one day and would have children, including sons, because all families hoped to have sons to save  the family name, and in that case, it was useful that she knew very soon to what looks a boy, even in young age.  
A daughter was supposed to have to care about boys as soon as she was grown up as a mother or an older sister or an aunt and the reverse was not true, a father did not care about his daughters, nor an uncle, or an older brother about younger sisters at that time.

 
We've heard many reasons why boys swam nude, and I'm sure there were many.   It often may have been the mom simply not wanting to deal with more wet clothes, or alternatively, having to continually buy swimsuits as the boys got older.  It may have been that the boys simply preferred avoiding the hassle of having to dress differently for swimming - much easier to strip down and go.  All these could have been reasons as well as others mentioned.  
 
Yes, we can all speculate and conjure up more and more reasons why the women had the boys swim nude, but those other reasons are not the issue or relevant because the moms did not focus on them or even mention them.
 
My point wasn't our guessing why it was done - that's unnecessary as the moms stated why they did it.  It was their statements and thinking they reduced to writing that was what was important, not any of our guessing their reasons.   It was what they said that was the *key* reason they had the boys swim nude, and it can be reduced down to this thought they expressed  - the women felt the girls deserved to be given the opportunity to look at the boys solely to know what naked boys look like.   Their statements showed it was as much about satiating the curiosity of young girls as it was about anything else, and their reasons never mentioned anything about the boys needs or the boy's enjoyment of being in the nude while swimming.
 
It is unfathomable to think a woman might say today "I have my boys swim nude in front of the girls as it gives the girls an opportunity to look at the boys' genitals and to know what boys look like naked".  Saying that would land them a visit from child protective services in today's times.   But that was the essence of those writing to Dear Abby and Ann were saying, and it portrays a very different era.
 
That's the point - it's what they *actually* said, not what we guess other reasons may have been.
 
 
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #180 on: Oct 21st, 2010, 7:06am »
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As Brad and others mentioned there were many reasons why boys were made to swim nude by women, who also never objected to boys swimming nude anywhere, including Y's, schools, backyards and skinnydipping, even if there were girls or women present in some cases.
But  I never heard any woman stating, as far as I can remember, that the reason was for the young girls to learn about male anatomy. This of course may have been a main reason, but I never heard women or girls stating it explicitly. What is certain, because I heard it umpteen times during my whole life, it was always the same statement by women and girls in answer to boys refusing to be nude in front of girls, and that is "You are only a boy (that is male) so you have nothing to be ashamed about". This of course was probably just an excuse for the girls or women to have a look at the boys.
This continuously repeated statement by women and girls, that it was no big deal for females to see naked males, served two puposes. One was to encourage the boys to be nude while swimming etc, and the other to give them the opportunity to see them. So whatever the reason was behind it they always gave the same excuse, which exhonerated the girls and women from any suspicion of voyeurism or even enjoyment of the situation.
This of course was the same excuse given in situations were females oversaw boys in locker rooms or showers or baths etc.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #181 on: Oct 21st, 2010, 11:50am »
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 I may upset some who keep harping and complaining about a double standard and boys being FORCED to be nude in front of young girls but must comment with authority.  
  These situations happened over 50 years ago and continue today. During some period of growing up, girls have got to learn what a male looks like. Better they learn in a controlled enviroment. If there is no male immediately available, a parent, aunt or guardian will take the opportunaty to show the girl if the situation should come up. A bit off topic but years ago if a child came down with mumps, measles or chicken pox, the mothers would hustell their children off to play with the affected child so they would be exposed to the virus, get it themselves and be over it.  
  The boys turn comes later after the girls are developed. Put some 18 yros or above on a boat, give them a few beers and in no time one of the females will remove her top and or bottoms. Not to be outdone, the rest will start taking their clothes off also. I think that is some kind of female competative thing. Cant let one girl get more attention than you. Of course that is in a more subtle sexual situation than satisfying a childs curiousity.   LEO C
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #182 on: Oct 21st, 2010, 1:46pm »
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on Oct 21st, 2010, 11:50am, leo_c wrote:
 I may upset some who keep harping and complaining about a double standard and boys being FORCED to be nude in front of young girls but must comment with authority.  
  These situations happened over 50 years ago and continue today. During some period of growing up, girls have got to learn what a male looks like. Better they learn in a controlled enviroment. If there is no male immediately available, a parent, aunt or guardian will take the opportunaty to show the girl if the situation should come up. A bit off topic but years ago if a child came down with mumps, measles or chicken pox, the mothers would hustell their children off to play with the affected child so they would be exposed to the virus, get it themselves and be over it.  
  The boys turn comes later after the girls are developed. Put some 18 yros or above on a boat, give them a few beers and in no time one of the females will remove her top and or bottoms. Not to be outdone, the rest will start taking their clothes off also. I think that is some kind of female competative thing. Cant let one girl get more attention than you. Of course that is in a more subtle sexual situation than satisfying a childs curiousity.   LEO C

 
Think about it - this whole thread has been a debate through  anthropology.   We are going back in history 50+ years ago and debating what was happening back then based upon historical evidence and various memories.
 
That culture is long gone and no longer applies.  How boys and girls grow up today, and how they learn about sex and the opposite gender is far different.   As I posted before, the opportunity to see and experience things far more hard core comes at the age when a child learns how to boot a computer and gets on while mom's doing the wash.   There is no longer a need for boys to be nude in front of girls to let girls see what boys look like, or visa versa, as they can now instantly see not only what grownups look like naked, but can see videos of what they do together when they are that age.   Several years ago I walked into my daughters room, she was about 12 at the time, and her and her friend were laughing at hard core detailed drawings (manga un-pixelated) of boys masturbating.  I'm sure that was just the tip of the iceberg of their Internet searching, and I realized anything I have been seeing, they too can see just as easily...anything.   I could have blocked computer sites, but then, that's no different than putting a finger in a dike, there are computers and the Internet in every house, coffee house, etc.
 
A girl seeing a boy her age naked in today's era for her would be ho-hum, as it is also the same for a boy.
 
Point is, it's all moot now, just anthropolgy debates for us.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #183 on: Oct 21st, 2010, 2:55pm »
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on Oct 21st, 2010, 1:46pm, Brad wrote:

 
A girl seeing a boy her age naked in today's era for her would be ho-hum, as it is also the same for a boy.

 
Pictures are fine but there is still the curiosity of seeing something in the flesh, so to speak.  
 
We kept our computer in the living room where everyone could share what they found. One night I came home to my son by himself, he was 14 or 15, and he told me I had to see a website he found. It was one of the early sites that featured a woman that would perform for the webcam free. Yes, free. Like I said it was an early site. I told him that was an interesting site did he have any questions. He didn't and we moved on.  
 
For kids to feel that something is a thrill to see can be laid at the feet of the parents. Being open with our kids about all aspects of human beings has helped them grow up to be fine well rounded and grounded adults.  
 
I grew up in that 50 years ago era where we had to find Playboys during the Boy Scout paper drive to see a naked woman. Forbidden fruit is the thrill that keeps us going.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #184 on: Oct 21st, 2010, 5:42pm »
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Brad, while it is true that it is all anthropology and history now, guys like us who are getting on in years like to reminiscence about those days which we lived through.
Personally, and I think there are many others like me, I prefer to hear and discuss about these accounts instead of watching any porno on the Internet. Also as Steve has said pictures are different than "seeing something in the flesh". I believe that reality is different than we see it in pictures, even though these are mostly glamorized for our consumption.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #185 on: Oct 21st, 2010, 8:09pm »
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 BRAD, still can not agree with you. In fact, think you dont really believe what you are saying. Would you rather watch fireworks on TV or be there in person? Watch the space shuttle launch on TV or in person? How about this! Watch a movie of a pretty young thing walk down the beach or be right there to witness it.? Until some kind of virtual reality thing comes along where a penis can be viewed, touched and put in your mouth, yea put in your mouth, there will be no substitute for the real thing.  
  As I was growing up there were pictures of nude females that I could look at. They did not take the place of me actually seeing bare breast down a girls suit. Got even better when I could actually touch them and even better when I could put a nipple in my mouth. Think we all grow up liking to touch and put things in our mouths. To this day I like putting nipples in my mouth. I dont understand it but fortunately there are females who enjoy putting penises in their mouths. Good for us!  LEO C
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #186 on: Oct 21st, 2010, 11:29pm »
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on Oct 21st, 2010, 5:42pm, Bobby_Bare wrote:
Brad, while it is true that it is all anthropology and history now, guys like us who are getting on in years like to reminiscence about those days which we lived through.
Personally, and I think there are many others like me, I prefer to hear and discuss about these accounts instead of watching any porno on the Internet. Also as Steve has said pictures are different than "seeing something in the flesh". I believe that reality is different than we see it in pictures, even though these are mostly glamorized for our consumption.

 
I agree.   This forum gives us the ability to go back in time and visit a different era, discuss its realities, and explore the erotic connotations.   I'm not saying this forum or this particularly thread has not been enjoyable and worth the time we've invested, but I am saying that we can't and shouldn't extrapolate what we are concluding within this thread to the realities of our current world.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #187 on: Oct 22nd, 2010, 12:00am »
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on Oct 21st, 2010, 8:09pm, leo_c wrote:
 BRAD, still can not agree with you. In fact, think you dont really believe what you are saying. Would you rather watch fireworks on TV or be there in person? Watch the space shuttle launch on TV or in person? How about this! Watch a movie of a pretty young thing walk down the beach or be right there to witness it.? Until some kind of virtual reality thing comes along where a penis can be viewed, touched and put in your mouth, yea put in your mouth, there will be no substitute for the real thing.  
  As I was growing up there were pictures of nude females that I could look at. They did not take the place of me actually seeing bare breast down a girls suit. Got even better when I could actually touch them and even better when I could put a nipple in my mouth. Think we all grow up liking to touch and put things in our mouths. To this day I like putting nipples in my mouth. I dont understand it but fortunately there are females who enjoy putting penises in their mouths. Good for us!  LEO C  

 
To answer your questions...
 
Do I not believe in what I'm saying? - In general, the answer to the question is usually, no I don't.  I question myself constantly, and by the time I hit "Post" below what I'm typing, I'll probably question what I just said.  If I were female, I could point at the phase of the moon for my excuse  Roll Eyes
 
Would you rather watch fireworks on TV or be there in person?   Well, knowing me my favorite scenario is blowing up my TV with fireworks.  Now THAT would be cool!
 
Watch the space shuttle launch on TV or in person?   You just hit me where it hurts.  The last launch is coming up soon, and I'm thinking about a trip to Florida.
 
Watch a movie of a pretty young thing walk down the beach or be right there to witness it.?  Uh, dude.   Have you been to Coccozella's website.   I MAKE movies of pretty young things walking down the beach (but nekkid of course  Grin ).  Check out the "California Dreamin" series by Brad at www.coccozella.com.
 
I get what you're saying.   A virtual connection is not real.   But, the gist of why these women exposed their daughters to naked boys was based upon education.   There were NO alternatives in their day.    Outside of vague memories of my mom stepping out of the shower, my first confirmation of what naked women looked like was a magazine I found in the late 1960s; however, even then it was rare when genitalia was shown.  In the 1950s, girls could only guess what boys looked like.  So a mom letting her daughters see it in real, up close and in person was a legitimate way to educate them as to male anatomy.    But that need is no longer there, and for a mom to do that now could not be justified by "letting them see the secrets boys have" as they know without it.
 
Of course, kids still do a "show me yours I'll show you mine" and play with each other.  They fool around as kids do.   The difference in our era, however, is that that connection is not orchestrated by the mother, aunt, etc., but instead are just kids playing.  That's the difference.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #188 on: Oct 22nd, 2010, 3:33am »
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Our anthropological pursuits have made us realize how different it was 50+ years ago.  If naked boys playing with girls was more ordinary than it is today, think about how it may have been different even another 50 years back from that.
 
I found this jewel of an article in an 1891 Syracuse Herald.   It talks about an American family visiting a seaside resort in England, and the discomfort that parent had when their daughter was surrounded by a "rowd of naked boys".   Here's the discussion:
 
A "Bewildered American" writes to the London Standard that he can't take his little girl to play in the sand at a British seaside resort without her being surrounded by rowds of naked boys.  An English friend told him that they let their daughters play with with naked boys of ten years of age, but draw the line at fifteen.
 
The actual full newspaper page:
http://deposit5iles.com/files/91a696lqj
 
Think of the connotation of that.  It evidences that boys of all ages were frolicking about naked, and the parents allowed their daughters to play with the naked boys provided they were under 15, but they could not play with the naked boys that were over 15.   Bear in mind this was not a private backyard or secluded swimming hole, but instead a public seaside beach wherein boys 15+ in age were completely nude.
 
It also gives credence to the photo posted a few weeks ago showing 15 boys playing naked in a river with a couple of girls of the same age, all by being watched by the parents.  
 
This culture was not only in the US, but England as well.  I'm sure it was also consistent in Europe and elsewhere as well.    It is not surprising that over the subsequent 50 years we find an era where boys still swam nude.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #189 on: Oct 22nd, 2010, 5:00am »
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I can recall my grandfather, a stern Scottish Presbyterian born in the 1870s, who in his house on Sunday allowed neither cards to be played nor Coca-Cola to be consumed, telling me that he did not even own a bathing suit until he was 20, though he was an excellent swimmer and had been since boyhood when he had learned from his mother and older sisters how to swim well. When I was a boy, he had a summer place right on the ocean -- he could literally walk out from his lawn to the sand -- and would sometimes get up early and swim naked in the salt water. He said it was much healthier to swim 'as nature intended'.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #190 on: Oct 22nd, 2010, 7:56am »
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There's a couple of lessons to be learned here, one being that in years past, as now, there were individual differences in how rules were applied. Some people were extremely modest and avoided nudity, some followed current rules, and some were extreme.
Another is that what we "know" about the past is what successful people who wanted to change things thought -- or what people who didn't want to thought. People before the 1960s are represented as prudish and anti-nude; those are the claims of people who didn't like conditions that led up to the 1960s. They  used similar propaganda from earlier times, also.
Rules can often have built-in exceptions, and some people will find ways around them.
Right now male nudity is considered especially heinous and threatening, though that may be changing, and men can go to bars and pay to watch women dance naked.
This will, sooner than younger people believe, be 50 years ago and people younger than they are will find it hard to believe since they'll have easily available only comments by people who wanted to change the rules and succeeded.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #191 on: Oct 22nd, 2010, 1:34pm »
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on Oct 22nd, 2010, 7:56am, PC wrote:
There's a couple of lessons to be learned here, one being that in years past, as now, there were individual differences in how rules were applied. Some people were extremely modest and avoided nudity, some followed current rules, and some were extreme.

 
As I read through news articles over the last 150 years, that is becoming more and more evident.   I also found articles wherein a group of girls were complaining to the police that boys swam in a nearby pond naked, but the police later learned the girls had to climb a tower to see the boys, or, other incidences involving cops chasing away boys swimming in the buff.  There's articles where laws were posted that it was illegal for boys to swim without suits in rivers within the city limits as early as 1918.  So in certain communities boys swimming nude in public was frowned upon.
 
But the rules were all over the board as it pertained to swimming in the nude.  Note that we're *not* talking about the mandatory no-suit policies practiced at schools and the Y up until the 1970s, but instead whether it was appropriate for boys to swim naked in public areas with females present.   This distinction is critical as many confuse the two.
 
It's this latter scenario wherein we find no consistent practice or thought.  Some believed the au-natural manner of swimming was simply the natural way for men, but of course, women were far too modest, particularly in the Victorian era when even their ankles had to be covered when in the presence of men.   It ranged from that seaside resort in England wherein it was expected that boys even up through 15+ would be naked versus other situations in more puritan parts of America wherein such practice was even outlawed.
 
The real debate over the culture of boys swimming nude at public schools and the Y started in the early to mid 1960s as evidence by the number of news articles that start to address the situation.   The articles can be found up through 1974 wherein school boards fought over the nude vs. non-nude requirements each offering reasons why or why not it should be allowed.    Those against the practice were almost always parents, but those in favor of it were school boards and the education system.  It was interesting to read comments of the women in these school administrations arguing it should remain mandatory for boys to swim naked as they shower together, and the cost to clean the pools would increase; hence, it was *not* just those macho coaches and men that were telling the boys to "buck it up", but the women wanted it as well.
 
Eventually, the inequity of forcing boys to swim nude while girls were not coupled with the greater sensitivity about abuse of children at schools (remember the days when they quit paddling the boys at schools?) brought an end to it.   Law suits are far more effective in changing society than protests.
 
But what is clearer and clearer as I research these articles is this:
 
1) it was not universal and attitudes varied considerably;  
 
2) prior to the 1950s in many communal gatherings there was an expectation that boys would be completely naked while swimming whereas girls would always wear suits; and  
 
3) some articles evidence situations whereby these naked boys were not just younger (ergo 7 through 11), but that it was also considered proper for older boys (15+) to be completely naked when in the presence of females at these communal spots as well.    
 
This evidences a society that provided girls the opportunity to view the genitals of boys and witness the different stages of development boys' penises and balls go through as they grow into adults.  Ironically, it's this characterization of the situation that was the most debated argument in the 1960s and 70s as to why boys should not have to expose themselves to other boys - ergo, the boys were growing up at different rates and forcing one boy expose himself to another boy may be humiliating - even though the boys shower together.    
 
And that's what is so interesting.   Back to the times of say, that seaside resort in England, not only were these boys exposed to each other, but also to all the girls of their community as well.  The community saw it was acceptable/proper for those girls to witness the very thing that 60 years later was too humiliating for even other boys to see.   The girls were allowed to see how each boy's genitals was developing - which boy was beginning to grow pubic hair around his dick, which ones were growing bigger man-sized-swinging balls and/or cocks, which boy had a circumcised penis, and which was behind the development curve and had a tiny penis and ball, etc.  And given what we now know, it is certain those girls were taking it all in under the approving guidance of their mothers.   The boys "secrets" were all disclosed to the girls of their community, and as evidenced in some of the Dear Abby letters, many mothers certainly  preferred the boys to be naked as doing otherwise would deny their daughters an opportunity to see those boy's "secrets".
 
For me, that's a bit of a shocker.  A boy who felt insecure about his package would not only have it exposed to other boys, but all the families, girls etc  of his community were allowed to look at it as well, and over time they could all see it develop into manhood (or not develop.)
 
But of course, we can trace this anthropological line all the way back to ancient Rome wherein unmarried women were allowed to watch the olympic games wherein hundreds of men all men competed naked.   The conclusion is this - we cannot assume or make judgments about history based upon our current societal norms and conventions, because what would be unbelievably unacceptable today was often quite acceptable and typical in days gone by.
 
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #192 on: Oct 22nd, 2010, 5:18pm »
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As for dhurches or religious people being against male nude swimming it couldn't be further from the truth. The YMCA was a church run Christian organisation, the "C" in the name stands for Christian. Also many summer camps run by church charity organisations for poor inner city kids had the boys swim nude, at least till the 50's. In some of these camps they even had female, mostly college age girls, as counsellors with the boys.  
There was an account some time ago on another for