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   Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
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freeed54
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #50 on: Sep 26th, 2010, 9:58am »
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From the final Sheboygan Press article it clearly states that boys and girls swam together and the boys need only bring a towel, the girl are supplied suits!
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #51 on: Sep 26th, 2010, 10:26am »
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Can anyone read the captions that accompany the pictures?
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Allan_C.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #52 on: Sep 26th, 2010, 12:35pm »
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SOOOOO, Alan, you've been vindicated.    Hell, you may have been in one of these classes!

 
Good finds, Brad! Yes, now we have something to point to in black and white that confirms my own boyhood experiences...I feel younger already...
 
It was evocative to read the stories for their style as well as the content. "Miss X" and "Miss Y" and "Mrs. Z" -- marital status clearly specified. Plus a focus on news of a mundane and everyday variety. No sensationalism for them! But wouldn't they be surprised to know that their innocuous little news items, resplendent with detail, would become the centers of attention fifty/sixty years later of people who are fascinated by a phenomenon, CFNM, that some people (mistakenly) now think of as a sexual fetish! Times do change, people.
 
I wasn't in any of those classes, because I grew up in New England, but that little news note at the bottom of the last clip, datelined Boston, about the 101-year old seamstress, might be relevant.  I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out she ran the front desk at my Y, and patrolled the locker room from time to time looking for rough-housers who needed their ears pinched!
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #53 on: Sep 26th, 2010, 2:05pm »
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on Sep 26th, 2010, 9:58am, freeed54 wrote:
From the final Sheboygan Press article it clearly states that boys and girls swam together and the boys need only bring a towel, the girl are supplied suits!

 
You are correct. Although it doesn't state specifically that the classes were mixed it gives the number of boys and girls who attended together for the opening days of the lessons and gives the average daily attendance for both boys and girls together, which was about even. And of course it clearly states that boys need only take a towel and swim nude while the girls are supplied with swimsuits. So much for gender equality. Grin
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #54 on: Sep 26th, 2010, 4:36pm »
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Here's another good find.   Same newspaper, but earlier than the above articles.   At that time, the boys classes included 9th graders.  And assuming at least a few of these boys may have been held back a grade and/or may be more developed, it is unquestionable that at least some of these boys had a fully matured cock and balls w/ full pubic hair.
 
Although the article is dated, you can still see that some of these girls looked sexy, and should there have been any accidental contact between the classes, it would have made for an interesting sexual dynamic.
 
The other thing interesting about this article is that the newspaper felt very comfortable posting the photos of the boys in the nude without the boys permission.    Thus, if they can be shown in the newspapers, it is plausible mothers and female teaches would be allowed in the pool area.
 

 
 
In the next article under "Parents Are Enthusiastic", it addresses something mentioned in a previous article I posted - at the end of the swim course, there's a visiting day and families are invited to watch the boys.    
 
Parents are invited to see first hand what has been accomplished during the final class periods on Saturday, June 26, designated as visiting days.
 
The article indicates that although the girls will wear swimsuits, the boys will swim the entire time "unhampered by a suit"
 

 
 
 
Lastly, in a different newspaper, it indicates that the boys will benefit from a Red Cross Certificate indicating they can swim.  The two giving the boys the test are two females, Miss Kitty Harder (no, that pun's too easy) and Miss Marjorie Stephen.
 
And of course, suits are not provided the boys:
 

« Last Edit: Sep 26th, 2010, 4:46pm by Brad » IP Logged
Reformed1
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #55 on: Sep 26th, 2010, 6:48pm »
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Sorry to be a pain but on Brad's post #51 the 2nd and 3rd articles are not showing. Instead I'm getting the dredded red X.
« Last Edit: Sep 26th, 2010, 6:49pm by Reformed1 » IP Logged
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #56 on: Sep 26th, 2010, 8:46pm »
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I'm getting the dredded red x as well.  Even so, these recent finds, for me, are the holy grail of online cfnm finds thus far (not that I doubted the accounts told my Allan_C. and a few other older posters on this board).  These articles just line up so nicely with what Allan and others have been saying for years.  A milestone indeed.  Thanks to Brad for the finds and to Allan and others who have shared and re-shared and shared again their personal experiences!  It has all really come together here.    on Sep 26th, 2010, 6:48pm, Reformed1 wrote:
Sorry to be a pain but on Brad's post #51 the 2nd and 3rd articles are not showing. Instead I'm getting the dredded red X.

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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #57 on: Sep 26th, 2010, 8:55pm »
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Great posts by Brad!  
Although my father never experienced nude swimming, with female instructors, lifeguards or spectators present, I did believe it happened on occasion, in some other parts of the country. Now we have proof that it did happen in Wisconsin! Rochester may not have females present, but I am surprised that no boy objected to his photo and name appearing in the newspaper. I am also amazed that no one complained to the paper!
 
OFF TOPIC
Tomorrow is my last day at my N.Y. State Agency; I am retiring. I am accepting 2 incentives, which will give me 4 years,  & 10 months over my actual time of service. Plus, the prevailing attitude in Albany is not state worker friendly.
As I am too young to do nothing, I will seek at least part time work, which will augment my State Pension.  
Best wishes to anyone else who is about to retire!
 
Donald
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #58 on: Sep 26th, 2010, 11:21pm »
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on Sep 26th, 2010, 8:55pm, SingleDonald wrote:
Great posts by Brad!  
Although my father never experienced nude swimming, with female instructors, lifeguards or spectators present, I did believe it happened on occasion, in some other parts of the country. Now we have proof that it did happen in Wisconsin! Rochester may not have females present, but I am surprised that no boy objected to his photo and name appearing in the newspaper. I am also amazed that no one complained to the paper!
 
OFF TOPIC
Tomorrow is my last day at my N.Y. State Agency; I am retiring. I am accepting 2 incentives, which will give me 4 years,  & 10 months over my actual time of service. Plus, the prevailing attitude in Albany is not state worker friendly.
As I am too young to do nothing, I will seek at least part time work, which will augment my State Pension.  
Best wishes to anyone else who is about to retire!
 
Donald

 
Way to go!  Congratulations SD!
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Allan_C.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #59 on: Sep 27th, 2010, 2:32am »
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Lastly, in a different newspaper, it indicates that the boys will benefit from a Red Cross Certificate indicating they can swim.  The two giving the boys the test are two females, Miss Kitty Harder (no, that pun's too easy) and Miss Marjorie Stephen.
 
And of course, suits are not provided the boys:

 
Brad, the second and youngest of my female instructors, an attractive woman in her 20s (I think) was the one who certified me for my Junior Lifesaving certificate, a very proud achievement in my young swimming career. She was an excellent swimmer, and looked great in a tank suit, too. Those of us who got it had to, among other things, demonstrate that we could "save" a fellow swimmer by swimming toward "shore" with one arm around his neck, thereby dragging his immobile ("lifeless" as it were) body through the water. I was so good at it that she demonstrated the proper technique to the class by dragging my immobile, but hardly lifeless, body through the water, she suited, me nude, for the length of the pool.
 
Ah, how times have changed...
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #60 on: Sep 27th, 2010, 2:33am »
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Congrats, Donald.  
 
You will love being retired!
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #61 on: Sep 27th, 2010, 2:50am »
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on Sep 27th, 2010, 2:32am, Allan_C. wrote:

 
Brad, the second and youngest of my female instructors, an attractive woman in her 20s (I think) was the one who certified me for my Junior Lifesaving certificate, a very proud achievement in my young swimming career. She was an excellent swimmer, and looked great in a tank suit, too. Those of us who got it had to, among other things, demonstrate that we could "save" a fellow swimmer by swimming toward "shore" with one arm around his neck, thereby dragging his immobile ("lifeless" as it were) body through the water. I was so good at it that she demonstrated the proper technique to the class by dragging my immobile, but hardly lifeless, body through the water, she suited, me nude, for the length of the pool.
 
Ah, how times have changed...

 
What a great experience that must have been.   Even at a younger age, I could not have been naked and embraced with such a mermaid without flying full mast.
 
I do have a question-
 
The articles I discovered renewed my interest in this subject and I began to research more.   One thing I noticed is that during the 1950s, the YMCA had programs for boys up to 16 in age.   The ads indicated the boys were not allowed to wear swimsuits.
 
But I also noticed that during this period, the last exercise class was typically for giving out awards/certificates like the one you got.   The ads also state that mothers and fathers were allowed to attend the events.
 
Do you ever recall a "visitation" or "awards" day wherein the boys swam nude while a crowd of people watched?
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #62 on: Sep 27th, 2010, 6:26am »
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I wonder if the famous "democratic" picture of teenagers under the shower proves that boys swam naked : that proves boys showednaked, but for swimming ?
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #63 on: Sep 27th, 2010, 6:27am »
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on Sep 27th, 2010, 2:32am, Allan_C. wrote:

 
Brad, the second and youngest of my female instructors, an attractive woman in her 20s (I think) was the one who certified me for my Junior Lifesaving certificate, a very proud achievement in my young swimming career. She was an excellent swimmer, and looked great in a tank suit, too. Those of us who got it had to, among other things, demonstrate that we could "save" a fellow swimmer by swimming toward "shore" with one arm around his neck, thereby dragging his immobile ("lifeless" as it were) body through the water. I was so good at it that she demonstrated the proper technique to the class by dragging my immobile, but hardly lifeless, body through the water, she suited, me nude, for the length of the pool.
 
Ah, how times have changed...

 
I bet you did it with periscope up all the way.  Grin
How old were you on this 'final exam' anyway?
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #64 on: Sep 27th, 2010, 6:38am »
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As much as I may conceive a young  (or old) women coaching little boys before puberty, so it is difficult to imagine a team of pubescent boys, with pubic hair and developped genitalia coached by a female instructor, with the obvious risk to ignite a sexual arousal Undecided
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Rick176701
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #65 on: Sep 27th, 2010, 10:55am »
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on Sep 24th, 2010, 9:55am, Bobby_Bare wrote:
For 'Reformed' and others who have asked for the link to Deb's post.
I have not posted the link because I have to ask that forum's moderator's permission first. Why? Because I think he is also a member of this forum, unless they have the same identical name, and may not want to reveal his personal forum here.
 
...
 
One of the moderators on this forum has said in a post above that he has her email and even corresponded with her, so he may be of more help. I have also asked him to tell us where the original post appeared, as you can see from my post following his, but he hasn't replied yet.
 

Bobby:  I missed your message requesting the link to Deb's story.  It might have been in a Yahoo! group or a voy forum.  About the email address of "Deb," I stated very clearly that her email account was closed.
 
If I had the link, I would have posted it, as I always do.  I frankly don't understand your line of reasoning about getting permission for posting the link to the blog or web site where you found the story re-posted.  I believe your protectiveness is somewhat misguided as most bloggers and/or web site publishers thrive on traffic to their web sites.  This is the world wide web, not the private web.  I think people just like to see the source material.
 
If you're referring to "ogden_edsl", I'm pretty sure he'd be happy to get any additional traffic to his blog.  I used to have the URL, but I can not find it.
 
Ogden_edsl is one of the most active archivists of CFNM and skinny dipping, etc. of a non-sexual nature.
 
Best.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #66 on: Sep 27th, 2010, 11:02am »
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on Sep 27th, 2010, 10:55am, Rick176701 wrote:

...
If I had the link, I would have posted it, as I always do.

 
Bingo!
 
http://forums.delphiforums.com/nudity1/messages/?msg=37.1
 
And another frequent contributor is Yellow Fever.  Here is his Forum:
 
http://forums.delphiforums.com/YellowFever3
« Last Edit: Sep 27th, 2010, 11:10am by Rick176701 » IP Logged
Bobby Bare
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #67 on: Sep 27th, 2010, 11:48am »
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Actually I hesitated about showing the link because Ogden didn't comment anything on this thread about this post which appeared on his own forum, so maybe there was a reason why he wouldn't want the link to appear. I just played it cautiasly in case he would be upset. But as you can see it is also a repost of the same post.
I will try to research and see if I can find her original post, unless Ogden himself can give us some information.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #68 on: Sep 27th, 2010, 12:54pm »
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on Sep 27th, 2010, 11:48am, Bobby_Bare wrote:
Actually I hesitated about showing the link because Ogden didn't comment anything on this thread about this post which appeared on his own forum, so maybe there was a reason why he wouldn't want the link to appear. I just played it cautiasly in case he would be upset. But as you can see it is also a repost of the same post.
I will try to research and see if I can find her original post, unless Ogden himself can give us some information.

Dude, I'm all for respecting people's privacy on the web, but he created a public web site for the world to see, and just as I missed your request for more info, it's very possible o_e is not reading this thread.
 
Just sayin'.
 
Best wishes.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #69 on: Sep 27th, 2010, 1:06pm »
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Do you ever recall a "visitation" or "awards" day wherein the boys swam nude while a crowd of people watched?

 
Brad, I have wracked my brain on that subject, because it comes up a lot on this topic. The answer is no, I do not recall such a visitation. In fact I only recall one of the pools (I went to at least three different Y's at various times) even having a spectator or 'bleachers' area and it wasn't very big. And another pool I think had a window on the second floor as a sort of observation area -- why it was there, I don't really know -- but I don't recall ever seeing anyone in it. I can recall, vaguely, other adult women beyond the instructors, in either the pool area or more likely the locker/shower areas, but they were almost certainly women who worked the front desk or mothers of boys. But even those happened a very few times, best I can remember.
 
Quote:
I bet you did it with periscope up all the way.  Grin
How old were you on this 'final exam' anyway?

 
BobbyB, I was either 10 or 11. I do recall that I started to masturbate at age 11, early for a boy I later learned, and would have had pubic hair then I guess, but don't recall if I did when this took place. At least one other boy was in puberty I recall. He had red hair and was older, and as good or a better swimmer than I was. No, I don't believe I was up periscope during that swim. It is odd to say now, but the CFNM part of it was not particularly sexual to me then. I suppose because I was used to it. But that girl's ass was. And the fact that she had me around my neck, my back rubbing against one breast as she swam. She had a shelf-like ass and her tank suit fit her extremely well. It may well have been the first time I ever saw or remembered at least an ass protruding backwards like a shelf on any otherwise slim, short-legged girl. I can still picture it, but I was very new to conscious sexual feelings back then. Whereas the earlier woman instructor, the mother of a boy I knew and whom I am pretty sure my mother knew, was middle-aged and wore a rather formless, matronly suit.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #70 on: Sep 28th, 2010, 7:42am »
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on Sep 27th, 2010, 6:38am, henri wrote:
As much as I may conceive a young  (or old) women coaching little boys before puberty, so it is difficult to imagine a team of pubescent boys, with pubic hair and developped genitalia coached by a female instructor, with the obvious risk to ignite a sexual arousal Undecided

 
Individual boys and girls alike mature at slightly different rates. The rules, however, have to be based on their age or grade level since examining everybody for signs of maturation would have to be done weekly by a doctor and would entail removing some to separate classes, making people self-conscious who weren't otherwise.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #71 on: Sep 28th, 2010, 10:38am »
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It's interesting I remember Vivian West remarking on her times as a swim coach at a private boarding school in England in the 1970's where the senior lads took swimming in the Nude.
 
If my memory serves me well she was posting in the late 1990's but got flamed for being a liar and some kind of pervert. Over ten years late...but it seems like her recollections were not fiction at all. How sad that is to know that now.  Sad
Jenny xx
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #72 on: Sep 28th, 2010, 12:21pm »
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It's interesting I remember Vivian West remarking on her times as a swim coach at a private boarding school in England in the 1970's where the senior lads took swimming in the Nude.
 
If my memory serves me well she was posting in the late 1990's but got flamed for being a liar and some kind of pervert. Over ten years late...but it seems like her recollections were not fiction at all. How sad that is to know that now.  Sad
Jenny xx

 
Yes, it is sad, Jenny. I have to say I have found it absolutely incredible how unwilling some people have been about not believing this type of thing. I don't know what it is, but I think there is something about a situation where the boys or men are swimming nude and the clothed women or girls are viewing them that many people simply do not want to believe happened. I don't know why it is so, but it seems to challenge something deeply held by them. Is it too good to be true, or too bad? Why do some find it so upsetting? Is it because the woman has such a prolonged period of completely sanctioned viewing of the naked males, rather than just sneak peeks or accidents? (And seeing their behavior from my perspective has made me wonder if I have been doing the same sort of thing -- fastidiously maintaining a sort of conceptual intransigence -- in other areas. In fact, I probably have, but I just don't know which areas.)
 
It has also made me consider something else. It so happens that I tend to believe that CFNM is a sort of natural thing, with definable sociobiological advantages to both male and females. (Which I have outlined in other posts.) If that is so, then the question is reversed -- what is it that can cause most people (nowadays) to think it is so wrong, so unlikely, virtually a sexual fetish? I do not know the answer to that question, but whatever it is, it takes a lot of glue to make an "unnatural" idea stick -- that it is immoral and wrong, deeply taboo, etc., for men to be naked in front of clothed women -- so it also takes a lot of info to make it unstuck.  
 
And it also explains why women who participated in such activities, as lifeguards and instructors and such, would be reticent to come forward and talk about it. You want the world to be flat and will burn me at the stake if I say it isn't? OK, the world is flat.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #73 on: Sep 28th, 2010, 4:52pm »
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Hi Rodney,
 
I'm guessing the person who started that thread had another thread that got badly flamed.  It's definitely a very odd message being so out of context.
 
Best wishes.
 
Rick
on Sep 27th, 2010, 4:38pm, Rodney wrote:

...
 
I also confess I do not understand the post on that forum titled "misterpoll forum unequal nudity." What does the message have to do with the title?

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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #74 on: Sep 28th, 2010, 6:10pm »
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Here is an intersting post from a discussion going on at Topix from a man who claims that his school team competed nude in front of mixed specatators.
 
"Q - Ted, don't tell me that swim meets were in the nude too? And in front of mixed spectators? Did I read correctly?
Most people today would not believe that this ever happened, though I keep an open mind about it and say that it could have happened in some places."
 
"A - Meets at our school, where my Dad was coach, were always suit optional for our team and the competition. Dad believed, correctly so, the race times were always better when nude rather than suited. Our team was always nude as I recall. Meets at other schools, varied as to whether suits were required or not - regional/state competitions were suited. As we always practiced nude and practices were open to those wished to stop by and watch - we were perfectly comfortable competing that way. Again, am sure standards varied widely by region. "
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #75 on: Sep 28th, 2010, 8:11pm »
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About "visitation" day...I'm uploading two newspaper articles.  
 
One is dated 1941 from the Wisconsin State Journal promoting the YMCA swim classes for boys up to 14 years in age.   It states:
 
"All boys registered for instruction are requested to bring their own towels to each of the classes. Swimming trunks or suits will not be used.   Parents are invited to attend the special exhibition period Saturday afternoon, April 26. Boys will be awarded YMCA buttons and certificates if they pass a standardized YMCA swimming test at that time."
 
The second is from a 1960 Waterloo, Iowa newspaper also promoting the YMCA swim classes for boys.   It *appears* this one includes boys up through high school.   First is this statement:
 
"The final climax of our Summer Swim Program gives the parents a chance to see what their boy has learned by attending one of several "Parents Night/Swimming Demonstrations." held at the YMCA."
 
Immediately below this statement it says (in bold) :
 
"BATHING SUITS— We do not encourage the use of bathing suits, but if a boy wishes to wear one, he may."
 
Here's a folder containing the two newspaper pages unaltered:
 
http://depositfiles.com/files/vcpv6mgwt
 
Some of these articles, all of which pertain to boys well into their teens, state "boys are not allowed to wear swim suits", then, they talk about "parents visitation on the last exercise day" etc. in the same article.    
 
I'm uploading these for you all to read yourself and draw your own conclusions.    Does this mean that they have special rules for the last exercise day that contradicts their "hygienic" rule disallowing swim suits for boys for that one night?  If so, why have such a rule at all?
 
Alternatively, does this mean that on that night women sit there and watch dozens and dozens of stark naked 14+ year old boys show their stuff?   Does it mean sisters can come?    
 
I don't know, wasn't there...so that's why I'm posting all this stuff.
 
What do you guys think?
 
 
 
 
 
 
« Last Edit: Sep 28th, 2010, 8:20pm by Brad » IP Logged
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #76 on: Sep 28th, 2010, 9:08pm »
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on Sep 28th, 2010, 8:11pm, Brad wrote:
About "visitation" day...I'm uploading two newspaper articles.  
 
One is dated 1941 from the Wisconsin State Journal promoting the YMCA swim classes for boys up to 14 years in age.   It states:
 
"All boys registered for instruction are requested to bring their own towels to each of the classes. Swimming trunks or suits will not be used.   Parents are invited to attend the special exhibition period Saturday afternoon, April 26. Boys will be awarded YMCA buttons and certificates if they pass a standardized YMCA swimming test at that time."
 
The second is from a 1960 Waterloo, Iowa newspaper also promoting the YMCA swim classes for boys.   It *appears* this one includes boys up through high school.   First is this statement:
 
"The final climax of our Summer Swim Program gives the parents a chance to see what their boy has learned by attending one of several "Parents Night/Swimming Demonstrations." held at the YMCA."
 
Immediately below this statement it says (in bold) :
 
"BATHING SUITS— We do not encourage the use of bathing suits, but if a boy wishes to wear one, he may."
 
Here's a folder containing the two newspaper pages unaltered:
 
http://depositfiles.com/files/vcpv6mgwt
 
Some of these articles, all of which pertain to boys well into their teens, state "boys are not allowed to wear swim suits", then, they talk about "parents visitation on the last exercise day" etc. in the same article.    
 
I'm uploading these for you all to read yourself and draw your own conclusions.    Does this mean that they have special rules for the last exercise day that contradicts their "hygienic" rule disallowing swim suits for boys for that one night?  If so, why have such a rule at all?
 
Alternatively, does this mean that on that night women sit there and watch dozens and dozens of stark naked 14+ year old boys show their stuff?   Does it mean sisters can come?    
 
I don't know, wasn't there...so that's why I'm posting all this stuff.
 
What do you guys think?
 
 
 
 
 
 

 
There isn't any doubt whatsoever that parents at the very least, and possibly siblings attended while the boys swam naked. In view of the way it was then I cannot imagine that sisters would be denied entry if the parents took them along. If there were any reservations about it they would be minimal and any explanation would suffice such as "we can't find a sitter".  
 
The eagerness to have the boys naked is surprising, but it very obvious that they WANTED the boys naked to swim for the public.
 
There is definitely a suppressed sexuality to this, just as I stated in the other thread about my own experience, it is unspoken and sexual.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #77 on: Sep 29th, 2010, 12:56pm »
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I sorry I don't wish to be a killjoy but I read through all of the articles supplied twice and I cannot find where it says that female instructors supervised boys in the nude.  The articles do say that boys swim in the nude and that the girls wear suits.  There are places where the female instructors are named.  The articles do say that boys and girls have different swimming times.  It is perfectly possible that the female instructors supervised females and males supervised males.  There is one article that says boys swim in the nude and that parents are encouraged to come and see their child's progress.  That surprises me but that is what the article says.  It is possible that the boys wore suits on that day but the article does not mention that.  It is extremely unlikely if female instructors were present during free learn to swim weeks at the YMCA that boys wore suits.  Please quote me the actual words in the article prove the female instructors were present that supervising boys during a female swim week so that I can see for myself.
 
I remember lots of free learn to swim weeks at the YMCA but there were never any female instructors.  I suppose it is possible that female instructors were used but I need to see it actually in the article.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #78 on: Sep 29th, 2010, 1:39pm »
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on Sep 29th, 2010, 12:56pm, Youngren wrote:
I sorry I don't wish to be a killjoy but I read through all of the articles supplied twice and I cannot find where it says that female instructors supervised boys in the nude.  The articles do say that boys swim in the nude and that the girls wear suits.  There are places where the female instructors are named.  The articles do say that boys and girls have different swimming times.  It is perfectly possible that the female instructors supervised females and males supervised males.  There is one article that says boys swim in the nude and that parents are encouraged to come and see their child's progress.  That surprises me but that is what the article says.  It is possible that the boys wore suits on that day but the article does not mention that.  It is extremely unlikely if female instructors were present during free learn to swim weeks at the YMCA that boys wore suits.  Please quote me the actual words in the article prove the female instructors were present that supervising boys during a female swim week so that I can see for myself.
 
I remember lots of free learn to swim weeks at the YMCA but there were never any female instructors.  I suppose it is possible that female instructors were used but I need to see it actually in the article.  

 
Several articles for the Sheboygan classes indicated that given the large number of boys enrolling each year, multiple instructors would be overseeing each class to assure proper attention for safety, particularly since the boys can't swim.  
 
The Sheboygan Nov., 1951 article above indicates that for the first three months it would be boys-only classes all day long, then the three months thereafter, girls-only all day long.   The article specifically states boys will not wear swim suits during the swim course.    It then indicates that 4 instructors would split the work load - 2 for the morning, 2 for the afternoon.   One of the two swim instructors for the afternoon classes was a female, Ms. Evelyn Hern.  Unfortunately, I don't think the article said "and Ms. Hern will have the delightful pleasure of seeing all the boys' peepees"...but I might be wrong, I'll go look.
 
It is difficult to find *any* article wherein it identifies which instructor will teach which class, and the one above was one of the very few.  No, you're not going to find "female instructors will be allowed to instruct the boys when they are naked" in any of the articles.  I realize that would be definitive proof - but that would never be printed.  
 
However, the fact that the local Sheboygan newspapers would print an article telling the world the boys swim naked, then, showing a *large* photo of these boys completely nude for everyone to see, and if that is not enough...identifying by name and address the boy that is standing there and can clearly be seen in detail in the photo on the diving board stark naked from head to foot... is very telling of the culture at that time.   Bear in mind, these ain't toddlers.   That specific swim class had boys up through the 9th grade (ergo, up to 16 years in age.)  
 
So if it was acceptable showing these boys naked in large photos on the largest paper circulated in the community for all to see (including girls that were in the same classes as these boys), why would they get prudish about an adult female instructor seeing the same thing the newspapers felt was acceptable for *everyone* in the community to see?  
 
After reading dozens of articles that indicate a) the boys are not allowed to wear swimsuits during the course, and b) parents are allowed to attend the last swim exercise day, it is easier to surmise that the boys swam nude during family visitation days than the contrary.   I never found any clarification anywhere that said "on visitation days, boys will need to wear a swim suit".   And in one of the articles it mentioned that hundreds of parents would show for these final day exercises.  So, if it were acceptable that hundreds of women from the community could attend the final day of exercise, why would they not all the female swim instructor to do the same?
 
So let's put it back to you, rather than us having to prove to you the affirmative, Youngren, why don't you do a comparable amount of research and  prove to us otherwise (from an equally researched perspective) that is, for all of these situations, find an article that states "at no time will females be allowed in the presence of the boys swim classes".  
 
If you can't, then, using your logic, should we conclude women *were* allowed to be present because you can't find an article that proves otherwise?
 
The thing is, we must draw a conclusion based upon the preponderance of evidence as opposed to beyond a reasonable doubt (civil burden of proof, not criminal, eh counselor?)
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #79 on: Sep 29th, 2010, 1:48pm »
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Quote:
So let's put it back to you, rather than us having to prove to you the affirmative, Youngren, why don't do a comparable amount of research and prove to us otherwise, that is, for all of these situations, can you find an article that states "at no time will females be allowed in the presence of the boys swim classes".    If you can't, then, using your logic, can we conclude women *were* allowed to be present because you can't find an article that proves otherwise?
 
The thing is, we must draw a conclusion based upon the preponderance of evidence as opposed to beyond a reasonable doubt (civil burden of proof, not criminal, eh counselor?)

 
Right on, Brad!
 
Ball is in your court, Youngren.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #80 on: Sep 29th, 2010, 3:06pm »
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Thought I would throw my two cents in here. I suspect the root of your disbelief lies in your own belief system. Brad's posts are pretty convincing that naked boys were not such a societal taboo at that time. How else can you explain the pictures of them in a newspaper or Abby's response about girls swimming with naked boys? Apparently is was not a remarkable thing at that time.  
 
One of the myths (beliefs) in our society is that men are essentially pologamist and women are essentially monogamist. However if one studies anthropology, matriacial societies were pologamist while our present patricarical society is monogamous. Many would argue that couldn't possibly be true. But a matriacial society is a reflection of women's ideas while a patricarical  society is a reflection of men's ideas.  
 
One essential point of this is in a matriacial  society, one knows who the mother is but not the father. In a patricarical society, one knows who the mother is and in most cases who the father is. It is men's ideas that foster this belief that people should be monogamous. What is real here?
 
Great work, Brad!
 
 
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #81 on: Sep 29th, 2010, 5:46pm »
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Wasn't there a "Dear Abby" article posted here  yesterday? If so where can I find it?
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #82 on: Sep 29th, 2010, 6:15pm »
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I want to ask only a question about the first message of Brad.
 
He said that it is indicated in some articles of newspapers that " the girls will wear swimming suits but swimming suits are not required for boys "
 
Why it is not said that boys must swim in the nude, which would be more simple ?
 
When it is written that boys are not required to wear swimming suits, it seems to me that it is different, I presume that it means that a boy has the choice to wear or not a swimming suit  according what he prefers, he is not forced to be nude  by a rule?
 
 "Now, here's where the program gets interesting.  As with the other articles, it indicates towards the end that the girls will wear swimming suits, but "swimming suits are not required for boys".
 
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #83 on: Sep 29th, 2010, 7:13pm »
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on Sep 29th, 2010, 5:46pm, Reformed1 wrote:
Wasn't there a "Dear Abby" article posted here  yesterday? If so where can I find it?

Never mind. Found it at another thread. Sorry.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #84 on: Sep 30th, 2010, 1:46am »
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on Sep 29th, 2010, 6:15pm, easter_man_10 wrote:
I want to ask only a question about the first message of Brad.
 
He said that it is indicated in some articles of newspapers that " the girls will wear swimming suits but swimming suits are not required for boys "
 
Why it is not said that boys must swim in the nude, which would be more simple ?
 
When it is written that boys are not required to wear swimming suits, it seems to me that it is different, I presume that it means that a boy has the choice to wear or not a swimming suit  according what he prefers, he is not forced to be nude  by a rule?
 
 "Now, here's where the program gets interesting.  As with the other articles, it indicates towards the end that the girls will wear swimming suits, but "swimming suits are not required for boys".
 the  boys are not required to swim in a swim suit  

 
It all meant the same thing - boys swam nude.   Some of the articles did use terms like "boys will swim nude", but it all meant the same.
 
One of the articles dealt with a 1961 debate within the board of education of the Menesha school district.  The argument was modesty of the boys versus the practicality of wearing suits.   Part of the review process included Menesha surveying 31 public schools with pools.  Of them, 20 required the boys to be nude, and the remainder allowed suits because either 1) the pool was outdoors, or 2) the girls locker room opened onto the pool.   If that state was typical, then you can surmise that in 1961, 2/3rds of all school swimming programs in the USA required the boys to be nude.
 
The board ruled to reject allowing boys to wear suits.   Although the reasons were lint in the filters, problems of handling suits and the "creation of a false sense of modesty" (argument being the boys were already showering together), the truth was actually that it would cost the school $3,000 for the new suits.    
 
Thus, the REAL reason boys didn't wear suits - money.   They saved money by not having the boys wear suits, no cleaning equipment costs, etc.   But isn't it always money?
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #85 on: Sep 30th, 2010, 2:02am »
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on Sep 29th, 2010, 3:06pm, PassionGuy wrote:
Thought I would throw my two cents in here. I suspect the root of your disbelief lies in your own belief system. Brad's posts are pretty convincing that naked boys were not such a societal taboo at that time. How else can you explain the pictures of them in a newspaper or Abby's response about girls swimming with naked boys? Apparently is was not a remarkable thing at that time.  
 
One of the myths (beliefs) in our society is that men are essentially pologamist and women are essentially monogamist. However if one studies anthropology, matriacial societies were pologamist while our present patricarical society is monogamous. Many would argue that couldn't possibly be true. But a matriacial society is a reflection of women's ideas while a patricarical  society is a reflection of men's ideas.  
 
One essential point of this is in a matriacial  society, one knows who the mother is but not the father. In a patricarical society, one knows who the mother is and in most cases who the father is. It is men's ideas that foster this belief that people should be monogamous. What is real here?
 
Great work, Brad!
 

 
So, where can I join this matriarcal group thing...are they like a burning man tribe?   Cool!
 
Kidding aside, as I read these papers I saw other things that really made me think about how different our world is.   Primarily it was in the area of race and segregation.   "Negroes" were treated as a disconnected part of society - remember, this was before the civil rights movements of the 1960s.
You forget how it was, but then you read a story like the one I quoted above and it brings it back home.  Empires in the USSR, Germany and Japan were wholesale murdering millions of people.
 
And marijuana was a dangerous hallucinogenic narcotic that incited addicts to murder...ooooohh  
 
It's not appropriate to overlay our current societal beliefs and attitudes on a different time in history, and that was certainly different.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #86 on: Sep 30th, 2010, 3:46am »
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Since you mention the race segregation era there was a post on Topix recently by someone who says he remembers that in his town in the 50's there were two YMCA's, one for 'whites only' and one for 'coloreds'. He even mentions the name of the streets where they were located. He said that this was common in the Southern States while less common and unusual in Northern states.
I also read a post once by someone who worked at a summer camp organized by a charity organization for inner city boys, mostly black. The camp councillors were mostly white college girls who volunteered for this work, and as you can imagine they saw a lot of male nudity during these camps since they were in charge of the boys most of the time.
As you say, it was a different era and unlike today in many ways, especially where male nudity was concerned which seems to have been acceptable by everyone in many environments especially swimming, even with females present in many cases up to teenage years.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #87 on: Sep 30th, 2010, 4:25am »
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to "Brad"  
 
 about what you said,  
" Part of the review process included Menesha surveying 31 public schools with pools.  Of them, 20 required the boys to be nude, and the remainder allowed suits because either 1) the pool was outdoors, or 2) the girls locker room opened onto the pool."
 
at least, it shows that the schools who had outdoor swimming pools or who had locker rooms for girls opened onto the pool did not require nudity of boys, so it means that the boys in the nude for swimming lessons in the other schools when nudity was required could not be seen by outside spectators nor by girls of their schools except may be accidentally.
 
These rules seems to me rather reasonable.
 
About all the reasons given for the rule of boys swimming in the nude, I believe that some were not so stupid as the issue of keeping wet swimsuits all the day in a bag or a locker room (of course, it was the same for girls but it was impossible to avoid that for them while it was possible for boys if the adults persons did not mind about their modesty), and also the fact that modesty was not considered as a manly attitude for boys because on the opposite of most of the girls they were already used to take showers together so why not be nude in a pool , and they were not encouraged to be modest. May be it was also a result of the rules applied in the army for the draftees since there was still a draft at that time in your country.  
 
We were not forced in France to swim in the nude, even if the schools were not co-ed,  but we had some PE teachers who were retired military men and they applied some rules in their lessons  which seemed to be inspired by military rules as for instance mandatory showers under their supervision after the lesson or running under the rain or doing many push-ups as punishments and they used to kick our asses  to make us hurry up when necessary or to stop speaking as did the non commissioners officers  while no other teacher did it!.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #88 on: Sep 30th, 2010, 7:07am »
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It's not appropriate to overlay our current societal beliefs and attitudes on a different time in history, and that was certainly different.

 
That's the key.
These changes took place within the lifetimes of many of us. Generally they weren't due to world-shaking events, though the Civil Rights Movement came close, but to small responses to problems that arose from small changes in the way things had to be done. Often they weren't even noticeable except in passing but people brought up with the changes will have attitudes that suit them. Only if you remember society before such alterations can you make sense of some things. Or, apparently, even believe them.
 
Regarding the segregation issue, for example, segregation made sense to three of my grandparents and they understood it from lifetime habit. One didn't approve of it but was more prejudiced than he believed himself to be. His reasons weren't the same as my parents' or mine for opposing it. It made no sense to me but since I saw it I know it happened.
It hadn't even been an eternal given to all of my grandparents since one set was born in the 1880s, a decade before the US Supreme Court established it as legal.
Expect people not to believe what you say by 2040.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #89 on: Sep 30th, 2010, 9:37am »
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Two amusing posts, posted just today on Voyforums, describing CFNM at the YMCA in the past. And both seem credible.
 
http://www.voy.com/217785/6657.html
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #90 on: Sep 30th, 2010, 12:56pm »
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easter_man:
 
What I'm saying is that there were no absolute rules.  It was a case-by-case situation.  Indeed, many schools would not allow the boys to swim nude because they deemed it "immoral" and a violation of the boy's privacy in much the same way we do today.  This was in the early 1960s.
 
I personally remember being in a YMCA swim program to learn to swim in the 1960s.  It was in Texas.   I've tried to remember, but can't...however, I'm pretty sure my mom would drop me off in my bathing suit and all the boys wore suits.  I can't remember the circumstances as I was about 6 or 7.
 
On the other hand, I quoted the high school district site in Fargo, ND, wherein men and women, now in their 60s and 70s, posted stories about their experiences back in the old days.  After reading through hundreds of the posts, a few were about how the men swam in the nude.   Two of the women admitted in their posts that they would peek through the cracks in their locker room door to watch the boys line up for roll call, with one telling about what happened when her gym teacher caught her, and why they were too harsh about it.
 
No, there was no consistent rule, no consistent attitude and no consistent policy.   We cannot assume that if a pool did not have an adjacent girls locker room, the boys would swim nude, nor can we assume that those pools that did have a connecting girls locker room required the boys to wear suits.
 
If the true stories of all these schools and swim programs could be laid out one after another, I'm sure it would run the gamut - from school programs wherein the idea of forcing boys to swim nude was objectionable as it is today to school programs where faculty didn't give a hoot about who might meander or look into the pool area, and would think it acceptable for female coaches to teach the classes, as Allan C has been so adamant about in retelling his own experiences.
 
Regardless, those days are long over.   Now, if some guy wants to swim naked in the presence of a lot of women, he will just have to go to one of the public beaches around the country (world) where that's perfectly acceptable.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #91 on: Sep 30th, 2010, 3:24pm »
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Awesome work Brad, you've unearthed heaps of stuff and deserve a round of applause, so take a bow!  
 
I echo what other people have said about it being different times, different attitudes. Even recently things have changed. At school and college we all showered naked in a group and it was nothing out of the ordinary. Now it seems to be going out of favour. In a few years people will question if that ever happened.
 
And whatever rules schools had there's every chance they were overlooked, adapted or broken from time to time.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #92 on: Sep 30th, 2010, 5:18pm »
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 Now, if some guy wants to swim naked in the presence of a lot of women, he will just have to go to one of the public beaches around the country (world) where that's perfectly acceptable.

 
Not only would going to a nudist beach fulfill such a desire, but it might be instructive. I have friends who own a place on St. Maarten. On the French side is a nudist beach, Orient Bay. I have been there many times. Despite my abiding interest in CFNM and the fact that I am nude and many of the women there wear suits (but not all by any means), my reaction is always the same -- after the first 30 seconds, I am so used to it everyone might as well be dressed. That is what it was like when I swam nude at the Y with a female suited instructor -- after a few seconds you forgot all about it.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #93 on: Sep 30th, 2010, 6:25pm »
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Brad:
 
I cannot find a Sheboygan article dated 1951 posted here.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #94 on: Sep 30th, 2010, 7:29pm »
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on Sep 30th, 2010, 5:18pm, Allan_C. wrote:

 
Not only would going to a nudist beach fulfill such a desire, but it might be instructive. I have friends who own a place on St. Maarten. On the French side is a nudist beach, Orient Bay. I have been there many times. Despite my abiding interest in CFNM and the fact that I am nude and many of the women there wear suits (but not all by any means), my reaction is always the same -- after the first 30 seconds, I am so used to it everyone might as well be dressed. That is what it was like when I swam nude at the Y with a female suited instructor -- after a few seconds you forgot all about it.

 
Allan, I think at that age, maybe up to 8 or 9, no one would appreciate a CFNM situation as something exciting or erotic. It certainly would have made no difference for me being nude in the presence of females at 6 or 7. In fact I was bathed by my aunt regularly up to about age 8 or 9 because at that age we are not sexually aware. After that age during puberty it would have been embarrassing and certainly not sexually enjoyable. It is only during my teenage years and later that I found CFNM exciting.
However on your other point that when one gets used to a situation it stops being exciting is true. I believe that it is the forbidden fruit that makes a situation exciting most. It is like trying to do CFNM with your wife or familiar girlfriend, it certainly does not work for me, though it may work for some.
It is the same with pornography. Before the Internet we would have paid anything for a piece of pornography or erotic material. Today we are inundated with it and, at least in my case, I don't even bother to look at it. I would rather read a good story or better a real account, at least it brings back those memories of our youth.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #95 on: Sep 30th, 2010, 7:49pm »
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Brad said :
"Regardless, those days are long over.   Now, if some guy wants to swim naked in the presence of a lot of women, he will just have to go to one of the public beaches around the country (world) where that's perfectly acceptable."
 
Brad, I think that would not work for many into CFNM, and may even be unthinkable for most to expose themselves on a public beach. Maybe a little towel teasing if females are about, but to parade naked in front of dozens, and maybe hundreds of people, is not everyone's cup of tea. I think a more limited situation, like a small party or just between two people is more preferable and acceptable by most. Also what makes these accounts of the past so exciting is that it was mostly forced nudity for the enjoyment of females, whether intentional or not, and in special situations.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #96 on: Sep 30th, 2010, 7:57pm »
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on Sep 30th, 2010, 6:25pm, Youngren wrote:
Brad:
 
I cannot find a Sheboygan article dated 1951 posted here.

 
If anyone is interested to try their luck and maybe find out more there is a Sheboygan forum on Topix. Just type the word in the search box on the top right hand corner. Maybe someone still living in that town has memories of these events. Just start a new thread asking for information.
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Re: Brad Offers Apologies
« Reply #97 on: Sep 30th, 2010, 9:29pm »
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Youngren - are these images visible to you?  If not, copy the links into a browser, save the photos, then use a photo view to enlarge the articles to read.   I also have the full newspaper pages from which these cam in .pdf, but this should suffice.
 
 
on Sep 26th, 2010, 8:17am, Brad wrote:
This is a milestone.   After many, many hours of research, I have FINALLY found absolute proof that:

 
1.  It was mandatory for these boys to swim completely nude in government-sponsored programs;
 
2.  In the program below, these boy could not be younger than 10 but could be as old as 15 years in age in Junior High,
 
3.   Female  swimming instructors supervised these classes, and,
 
4.  Parents of both gender would watch the boys - in one meet it was reported 650 family members showed.  

 
I began to research newspaper articles of a public swimming program sponsored by the  Department of Public Recreation in Sheboygan, Wisconsin in the 1950s.    This program sponsored swim classes for boys and girls up through high school.
 
Here's are two - the first was in 1952 and clearly states "boys swim in the nude":
 

 
Here is a 1959 article that reiterates that the boys are not to wear swim trunks during class:
 

 
 
Now, here's where the program gets interesting.  As with the other articles, it indicates towards the end that the girls will wear swimming suits, but "swimming suits are not required for boys".
 
However, it says that the classes will have four supervisors, two men for the morning classes, and a man and a woman - Miss Evelyn Hern, for the afternoon classes.    But if you're thinking Miss Hern will only be with the girls, you're mistaken.   The article discusses how it will be a *boys-only* program from Nov through Feb, then a girls-only program thereafter.  This meant that Miss Hern was there supervising the afternoon sessions for the boys, which was to be the Junior High boys swim class.  Although it indicated anyone that couldn't make the morning classes could be in her afternoon classes.   And I would guess a lot of the boys had excuses why the couldn't make the morning session and instead had to be in her class!  Wink
 

 
 
The following one is even more curious.    It mentions again that only the girls wear swimsuits, but then at the end discusses how families were invited one day to stand on the balconies right above the pool and watch the boys compete.   550 men and women showed to watch the boys.  It doesn't state if others were there, but with 550 people watching, you'd assume it was pretty much open, and you might think girls would have been part of such a large crowd.
 
I can't imagine how it felt to be a, say, 14 year old boy on that day swimming stark naked as hundreds of females watched me.
 
It should also be noted that this year a Miss Maradel Honold was in charge, although it doesn't provide evidence she was supervising the boys as it does in the previous one.
 

 
 
 
SOOOOO, Alan, you've been vindicated.    Hell, you may have been in one of these classes!
 

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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #98 on: Oct 1st, 2010, 6:17am »
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"Brad" :
 
 thank you very much for all these articles very interesting
 
it shows definitively that there was sometimes female instructors for the boys swimming lessons in the nude and also, even if certainly very seldom, some schools where family members of both genders could be present to watch at boys swimming in the nude at swim meets.  
 
it was not fantasy as it is sometimes said by younger persons who do not believe that it could have happened, it was official, well known, and admitted by families.
 
I must recognize that as I was never in this situation, I don't know exactly what I have thought if I had experienced to be naked for swimming at school with a female instructor.
 
I believe that I would have been very embarrassed but as I was pretty an obedient boy, I would have certainly comply to the rule and may be I would have get out of the embarrassment after a few lessons.
 
The social norms are very important to make you feel comfortable or not in many situations or at least to admit to do something even if you don't like it or to comply to instructions.
 
As I have already said, in France during a very long years until the middle of the 60's, all the teenagers aged of 18 had to report in front of a draft board commission for a real physical performed by a military doctor in front of a dozen members of the draft board commission and a large group of draftees in a big room and it lasted almost one or two hours to stay completely naked in the room.
Most of the members of the draft commission were civil persons without any medical knowledge but they could watch at the physicals of each draftee.
They were certainly very used to that situation because there was a great lot of draftees each year and they weremost of the time members of the commission for many years .
 
I have experienced it as a draftee so I can say that it was embarrassing for the young men  but nobody was really objecting against that way of performing the draft physicals, it was admitted as a social norm by all adults and the boys had nothing to do than to comply to the instructions. It was considered as a kind of ritual initiation before reaching  adulthood.
 
Today when a french male person relates this experience in his life to a young male person , he does not believe that it was possible and says that he would have never admitted to be so humiliated because social norms have so much changed that it is almost incredible.
 
it is the same for many situations, attitudes and opinions.  
 
it is obvious that the rule of swimming in the nude for boys in the past in your country  was admitted by a lot of persons at that time.  
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #99 on: Oct 1st, 2010, 10:49am »
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 Been out of touch for over a week now. Am now able to comment although I have posted the same before.  
  Those news papers clipping sure required some research although they were pretty typical of announcements at those times. As they say, boys were required to swim nude. One thing caught my eye. Some say that swim suits were optional for boys. Dont know if that was in the clippings or someones comments but I experienced it. In my case, although we swam nude at the Y, had one occasion that I can remember where 4 or 5 boys wore suits while the rest of use swam nude. Was a family demonistration day and the boys mothers and sisters showed up. We could have worn suits that day if we wanted to but aside from the suited boys, none of us had suits so we swam nude.  
  Have to think that was one of those suit optional days. Would appear that was the practice at other pools as well as the one I attended. Sorry for repeating myself from other post I have made.  LEO C
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