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   Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
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easter_man_10
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #200 on: Oct 30th, 2010, 3:53am »
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It is true than in a recent past, may be thirty years ago, a male teenager of 15 age or even a little more until 17 age was still considered by his parents as a child and it is true that most of the boys were very immature more than girls and that at that time, they needed more to be disciplined in school because they were more often disruptive and doing horses.
 
it has changed but recently.
 
And a boy was not considered as being sexually attractive under 17 age .
 
It explains many customs of that time as allowing boys until 15 age to be naked on a beach or changing them in the view of other persons without really trying to protect them with a towel.
 
For a mother, it was more important than her son did not catch a cold because he would have kept a wet swim suit than to change him in plain view of other mums or their daughters, leaving him in the nude, while she would not have done this with her daughter to respect social norms.
 
As you say for most of mothers, for a boy, there is "no need for cover" because he was still a kid.
and a mother was considering that if she could see of course her son naked, other mothers who had sonslike her could see him also, it was not undecent.
 
I am quite certain also that some boys liked to be considered as kids by their mothers, there was also some advantages in that situation.
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henri
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #201 on: Oct 30th, 2010, 4:28am »
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As my father married for the second time, I was reared by my stepmother. I was 16 yo, it was obvious for her that I didn't need in any  way a swimsuit at the beach, as her daughter who was 8 yo and her best friend'son who was 9 yo. I was even not allowed to choose my dressing !
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #202 on: Oct 30th, 2010, 12:12pm »
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A few post back was the mentioning of mothers considering their sons as a child until there middle or late teens. I can say AMEN to that and hope none of you had to go to extreme that I did. Something I dont think I ever had the courage to relate before. May sound simple but it bothered me much more than my being to young to wear a bathing suit.  
 Up until I started high school at 13, I was required to wear suspenders. Never had a belt. Was humiliating to have the girls constantly snapping my suspenders and giggling. Even the nuns did it. I hated it!! Moms excuse was that my waist was to slim and she could not get a belt in my SMALL size. Believe it might have had something to do with my mothers eat up infatuation with anything medical. Lots of doctors wore suspenders at that time which I believe was a sum what uniform item for them. Just like wall street people today.  
  She broke down when I was 12 and bought me a bathing suit, had to wait till I was 13 for my first belt. Having some female classmates see me nude at the swimming hole never bothered me. It was their snapping my suspenders that was humiliating. That was just one of numerious things she did to keep me a young boy.  LEO C
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #203 on: Oct 30th, 2010, 12:46pm »
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I know this is OT but I am getting pissed off and am on a roll. I posted this a long time ago I think.  
 At that time a boy getting his first watch was a big thing. Sort of like your first set of electric trains. Was told that my wrist was to small and my father had to get me a little boys watch. Turned out he got me a womans watch. Only wore it when I had to.  
  Started growing facial hair but was not allowed to shave. Had to use that cream that women use on their legs. Burned my face like hell. Just so she could say that I did not shave yet. I could go on and on, thanks for listening to my rant, I feel better now. LEO C
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #204 on: Oct 30th, 2010, 1:30pm »
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Hi Leo_C, what a great memory, how you suffered because of your mother's inability to admitt you was a teenager and not a child !  
 
Same thing for me, but the big deal for me was the obligation to wear tighty whyities. These kind of underwears, as I was 15-17, was considered as completly old-fashioned.  
 
I had to change in the loker-rooms, I was the one who had classic white briefs, my classmates moked me and told that to the girls, so they giggled a lot as they met me, and sneacked also. I was so angry !  
 
But my stepmother, hearing my complains, smiled and just told me : teenager boys are nothing else than little boys in their brain, even if they have a man's body. So they have to be treated as long as possible as a child, whilst girls are more maturated.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #205 on: Oct 30th, 2010, 5:47pm »
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HENRI, when I was growing up, most of us boys wore briefs, very few boxers.  
 As far as memories go, I think its pretty natural to remember most of the highs and lows we have had. Unfortunately I have lots more lows than highs. Going to tell something that I never had the courage to relate before. Sometime as a youngster it was determined that it would be a good idea for me to learn to dance. I am not talking about ARTHUR MURRAY ballroom dancing. NOOOOO, this was tap and ballet. I had the shinest pair of black tap dancing shoes along with some cute ballet slippers. Talk about being humiliated, when the dance recital came along, there I was on stage, and some of the girls I went to school with were in the audience.  
  So I go to catholic grammar school and each year they put on a show that all students in all classes had to participate in. The nuns were always desperate to find a student that could do something. Some girl snitched on me and told a nun that she knew I could dance. The nun ask me about it and I tell her I have no idea what she is talking about. Nun is desperate and call my mother. My mother says sure, I would be happy to do a tap/ballet routine with the girls that could dance. She failed to check with me because there was no way I was going to do it.  
  So the nun calls my mother again and tells her about my refusal. My mother first gives me that talk on how much she sacrificed in time and money for my dance lessons. I heard that HOW I SACRIFICED talk over the years much more than the DONT BE CONCERNED, I HAVE SEEN BOYS BEFORE. I still refused and wound up getting a very severe strapping because of my defiance. It was worth it. Maybe that was one of the reasons the nuns would snap my suspenders.
  Wish I was making this up. Still bothers me today. Female classmate seeing me nude was nothing compaired to them watching me try to do ballet. LEO C
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #206 on: Oct 31st, 2010, 5:49am »
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Hi Rodney !
 
Your underpants were something like that :
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/19/fashion/19UNDERWEAR.html?_r=1
 
?
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #207 on: Nov 1st, 2010, 9:35am »
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Some old photos of nude male swim meets and compulsary nude pool swimming, some of which show females present as officials/coaches or spectators.
http://imgsrc.ru/main/pic_tape.php?ad=501247&way=&skp=12&pwd =
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #208 on: Nov 1st, 2010, 9:39am »
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Click 'Next' at bottom of each page for more photos.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #209 on: Nov 1st, 2010, 11:05am »
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on Nov 1st, 2010, 9:39am, Bobby_Bare wrote:
Click 'Next' at bottom of each page for more photos.

 
Very thorough collection.  thx!
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #210 on: Nov 1st, 2010, 12:09pm »
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 Nice collection, lots of variety. One or two pictures reminds me of the old swimming hole but with a lot less people. As all here agree, females of any age did not swim nude. I never saw it anyway. Has got to be some where in EUROPE, perhaps a clothing optional area. Obviously the picture with topless or nude females of all ages is at a nudist resort. Is god to see both boys and girls exposed to each other and all the mystery is gone. Am sure they grew up well balanced.  
  All those boys in the pool has got to be a boys club or municipal pool. I never had more than 15 in the pool at the Y but those times were week day afternoons.  LEO C
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Allan_C.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #211 on: Nov 1st, 2010, 4:01pm »
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Several of the pictures had clothed women and nude men in them.  
 
How long before they get denounced as fakes and photoshops, I wonder?
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #212 on: Nov 1st, 2010, 5:08pm »
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Bobby_Bare,
 
Just curious-Have nude photos of underage kids, taken a long time ago, been "grandfathered in", regarding child pornography laws? I would hate to see anyone on this board get in trouble for viewing those photos. The ones of adult nudity, especially the ladies, are fine though!  
On another thread, I expressed a preference for women thinning out their pubic hair. These ladies are so covered up, that you can't really see anything. That is why I like female shaving, around their best parts!
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #213 on: Nov 1st, 2010, 6:19pm »
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on Nov 1st, 2010, 5:08pm, SingleDonald wrote:
Bobby_Bare,
 
Just curious-Have nude photos of underage kids, taken a long time ago, been "grandfathered in", regarding child pornography laws? I would hate to see anyone on this board get in trouble for viewing those photos. The ones of adult nudity, especially the ladies, are fine though!  
On another thread, I expressed a preference for women thinning out their pubic hair. These ladies are so covered up, that you can't really see anything. That is why I like female shaving, around their best parts!

 
SingleDonald, surely you must know the difference between unprovocative nudity and pornography. These are historic photos and I don't know how anyone can see any hint of pornography in them. And as far as I know underage nudity in a nudist/naturist setup is perfectly legal. So put your mind at rest.
Actually I only wanted to show those photos which have CFNM in them, since the others are irrelevant on this forum, including the ones you mention. But I couldn't go to all the trouble of downloading them on another site individually and linking them again, or whatever it takes, and I don't even know how because I never tried it. Would appreciate if anyone can tell me how here. Besides it would be infringing the author's copyright if I do that. So I just posted the link here.
 
About your preference in seeing naked 'ladies' I don't think this is the site for that. There are plenty of sites which show hundreds of pictures of naked 'ladies', so why bother with this one? This is about 'clothed females' and naked males, remember?
 
 
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #214 on: Nov 1st, 2010, 7:07pm »
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DONALD, I am by no means an expert but would not consider that anything close to child porn. Will admit that there are probably people that would find a cartoon drawing of a nude boy or girl offensive.  
  Have not looked lately but nudist sites show family nudity which includes child nudity. Some of those pictures with children had to have been taken at a nudist resort. I believe the line is drawn when there is sexual activities involved. Just my opinion.  LEO C
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #215 on: Nov 1st, 2010, 8:56pm »
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on Nov 1st, 2010, 5:08pm, SingleDonald wrote:
Bobby_Bare,
 
Just curious-Have nude photos of underage kids, taken a long time ago, been "grandfathered in", regarding child pornography laws? I would hate to see anyone on this board get in trouble for viewing those photos. The ones of adult nudity, especially the ladies, are fine though!  
On another thread, I expressed a preference for women thinning out their pubic hair. These ladies are so covered up, that you can't really see anything. That is why I like female shaving, around their best parts!

 
SD - You are absolutely right to maintain vigilance over posted photos and depictions - I abhor child porn and abuse, as we all do . And I agree with leo and others about these photos and depictions.
 
We are getting back to something that is not about eroticism over nude boys...on the contrary. We are all reminiscing about our own boyhood-childhoods and trying to understand the culture that makes many of us think the way we do. Certainly, CFNM forced on boys can be a reason for this. And the double-standards of bygone eras certainly are at issue. At least as it pertains to my own childhood, I think I was forced to be naked in front of my sister and others when I was embarrassed about such exposure and the severe double-standard of the time - it drew deep seated anger in me for many years, so perhaps those emotions twisted my brain someway? Don't know, but I do thing others seem to thing so (both in terms of their own inclinations as well as agreement that Brad has a twisted brain!)
 
We simply are pursuing truth. I'm frankly tired of heated debates about what did or did not happen. I was once royally flamed by some guy (on another board) when I said there was an era when boys had to swim naked, but girls did not. And I particularly get upset when pompous know-it-alls (yes, on this board too) that have done little research and have read very little come here and just because they have a natural propensity to think they know more than others, claim others are not telling the truth or making stuff up. Although they scream to others "I'm ignorant, unjustifiably arrogant and a big asshole while making people sorry they contribute" they are still effective in dissuading others. But when we can post the photos evidencing history, those posting accounts will at least have a small army of supporters that can assist in shutting up the know-it-all asswipes.
 
I too criticized and doubted many accounts in previous posts. One involved females being present when boys were forced to conduct swim lessons in the nude, and I made the wrongful claim that I had done enough research to proclaim there were never any documented accounts of that happening in an institution. But it wasn't until I did -bust-ass research and found articles that pinned the presence of female instructions to classes with boys that swam in the nude that I realized I was both wrong in the assertion, but more importantly, wrong in making the proclamation as it painted me out to be an asswipe know-it-all too!
 
Photos of naked boys just standing there or showering by themselves with no context are photos I would not want on this board, and would agree with their deletion. However, photos were published in newspapers showing a boys' swim class wherein all are naked is news in and of itself - that is, a public newspaper thinks nothing of inviting anyone that reads the newspapers into the boys swim area with them. Likewise, a 100 year-old photo of 15 adolescent boys playing bare-assed naked on a river bank while girls and mothers (all clothed) are with them is damned revealing of culture during the Victorian era, and it blows away many arguments that CFNM was not practiced at beaches, lakes and rivers.
 
I personally must have things backed by facts and verified news accounts for me to gain interest. And a photo is worth 1000 words. But as long as we are relegated to unverified story-telling (which all other blogs and boards seem to be), it frankly is not worth my time to read or post on these threads.
 
With that said - I ask everyone to refrain from showing any depictions of naked children wherein it is not in the context of a communal event, and especially if such pictures depict them in any provocative way.
 
Hope this helps.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #216 on: Nov 1st, 2010, 11:14pm »
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Thanks, Brad!
I, too appreciate verification of something historical. My sentiments are well presented as to resenting forced CFNM, on kids, or adults. While it is healthy to accept CFNM, it must be embraced by the NM, and therefore be an enjoyable experience for both him & the CF.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #217 on: Nov 2nd, 2010, 6:41pm »
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To be proper, I'd hope that the remainder of any such photos would reflect the points we are trying to make. If they are of just boys in a locker room, they should not be posted. The only exception is when those photos evidence that the lack of concern about exposing the nudity of boys to the female population was so significant that such publications were in newspapers, Life Mag, etc.
 
With that being said, one of the biggest challenges we've had in proving that female coaches did indeed coach nude boys while in their swim classes is the lack of photographs. However, this thread is not dead yet and I'm hopeful we'll make that final conclusion.
 
However, I've discovered some vintage postcards (note, these will be repeated on the Victorian thread when I post some written accounts I'm researching). The problem is that the further we go back in time, the fewer pictorial evidence there is for just about anything. Newspapers rarely had drawings before a certain period because technology made them harder to print. This relegates us to vintage photos, journal and book illustrations and postcards. Few of these focused on anything other than grandiose topics or staged photos.
 
Here's a website that discusses why we don't have much pictorial evidence showing public nude bathing at the beach and elsewhere:
 
http://www.metropostcard.com/metropcbloga4.html
 
Scroll down to below where it says "The Shifting Tides of Seaside Postcards" where it reads:
 
"While it seems only natural to bathe without the encumbrance of clothing when in the privacy of ones own home, public bathing cannot be separated from a whole range of additional criteria governing everything from rules of modesty to social status. One must be careful not to interpret these postcards with a contemporary eye if their true meaning is to be understood.....Those who dared to venture into cooling water on hot summer days usually chose small ponds where there was far less risk of drowning. Swimming was primarily an activity of children as frivolity could be more overlooked in youth. It was also an activity usually partaken of in the nude and rules governing modesty were not so stringently applied toward the young. Even though people were once more modest in dress, taboos on nudity tended to be far less prevalent than they are today; they very much existed but were generally confined to particular hours and settings. Such images are rarely captured on postcards for attitudes toward nudity had drastically changed during the Victorian era just prior to the advent of postcards."
 
The following watercolor off of the above website is a painting of a seaside scene during that era:
 

 
Note the two boys, one in the water and one on the diving platform, both totally naked. Yet a girl of similar age tries to crawl onto the same plank fully clothed, and a nursemaid or mother sits on the banks and watches them. This evidences that boys of the same age as those discussed in the YMCA pool swim classes swam naked out in the open in front of women during the earlier days of the same period.
 
After about a month of research, I'm beginning to discover very old photos on the Internet. Most of these are postcards and I have to purchase them in bulk. I've already purchased my fifth batch of postcards and old photos and am beginning to find some interesting ones.
 
 
 
The first depicts a large group of people posing. Notice the three boys in front, all of whom are stark naked. They have girls around them (clothed) and one naked boy appears to be about 12 or 13:
 

 
 
 
Here's another, but the nude boys are younger:
 

 
 
The following one tells a lot, and was posted previously. It shows two girls of a similar age turning and talking to a naked boy, who is embarrassed and holds his hands over his genitals hiding them from the girls - it speaks to the embarrassment these naked boys went through:
 

 
 

 
 
 
Finally, the fact that all of these women have their boys swim naked at the public beach lets one knows that it was common and expected, at least during the time and location of this photo:
 

 
 
The point is for the naysayers...if it was common for boys of the same age as those that swim without trunks at the Y to swim that same way at public beaches a few decades before, why is it hard to believe that female teachers taught swim classes to boys that swam nude?
 
Of course, we see the trend change over the 20th century, as it also changed over the 19th.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #218 on: Nov 2nd, 2010, 7:54pm »
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That is an excellent discovery.
 
You don't believe in half measures do you. When you get your teeth into something you appear to do a through job.
 
Bravo!
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #219 on: Nov 2nd, 2010, 7:57pm »
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Brad, in the first photo of the posting, are you certain those a re three boys? I'm wondering if the child on the far right may be a girl.
 
Does anyone else see that possibility or am I deceiving myself?
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #220 on: Nov 2nd, 2010, 11:37pm »
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I'm sure all the girls seen in the photos are clothed--some are in what appear to be panties.  All of the boys are nude.  I wonder when and where the custom started?  And why only boys?  I'm just asking, not complaining.
 
I grew up in the 40's and 50's in the western US.  Public nudity of either sex was not common anywhere or anytime I lived or visited.  The midwest appears to be different, according to research by Brad and others.  Minnesota, Wisconsin and some of the plains states populations include pockets of more recently immigrated Europeans, who may have brought the custom with them.  It might prove interesting to search for old photos of European beaches to see if the custom appeared there in the past.
 
I've been to Europe many times since the 60's, and haven't noticed much more nudity (except in screened-in "nude" zones) than on US beaches--some topless women, and an occasional bather of either sex changing clothes on the beach.  In Germany, you'll sometimes see office workers sunning themselves nude on their lunch hours in nearby parks--as many or more women than men, incidentally.  No double standard now.
 
Even in the Muslim world you'll occasionally see European women guests sunbathing topless beside hotel pools.  Noone complains.  I guess they appreciate the tourism business, and perhaps the average Muslim doesn't much care.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #221 on: Nov 3rd, 2010, 12:20am »
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on Nov 2nd, 2010, 7:57pm, freeed54 wrote:
Brad, in the first photo of the posting, are you certain those a re three boys? I'm wondering if the child on the far right may be a girl.
 
Does anyone else see that possibility or am I deceiving myself?

 
I don't think so. The postcard archive I found it on was called "3 nude boys". Try downloading it to your hard drive, the bring it up using Windows Photo Viewer or some other photo program that allows enlargement.   You'll see it's a boy - short cropped hair like the others and a square chin and other facial mannerisms.
 
Given the plethora of photos all depicting nude boys yet none showing nude girls (although some wore just panties), I don't think so.
 
But hey, that was way before I walked this planet, and these photos are mysterious to even those that own them.   My guess is the scrutiny that photo is now getting on this forum may be the first it's received in 80 years.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #222 on: Nov 3rd, 2010, 7:56am »
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on Nov 2nd, 2010, 11:37pm, SeaMine wrote:
I'm sure all the girls seen in the photos are clothed--some are in what appear to be panties. All of the boys are nude. I wonder when and where the custom started? And why only boys? I'm just asking, not complaining.

 
This was still a pretty repressive time for women.  Kids often like to be naked.  With the boys it was probably seen as "boys will be boys."  While the girls were probably taught from a young age "you need to be a lady, you need to be modest, you need to cover your private areas."
 
I've even heard from nudist friends that double standard is still alive and well today.  Non-nudist friends find out that their little boy skinny dips in their pool and think nothing of it.  Find out that their daughter does the same and suddenly it's "you let her do that, infront of her brother and her Dad?"
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #223 on: Nov 3rd, 2010, 12:31pm »
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on Nov 3rd, 2010, 7:56am, Nudist/Exibitionist wrote:

 
This was still a pretty repressive time for women. Kids often like to be naked. With the boys it was probably seen as "boys will be boys." While the girls were probably taught from a young age "you need to be a lady, you need to be modest, you need to cover your private areas."
 
I've even heard from nudist friends that double standard is still alive and well today. Non-nudist friends find out that their little boy skinny dips in their pool and think nothing of it. Find out that their daughter does the same and suddenly it's "you let her do that, infront of her brother and her Dad?"

 
This thread caught fire and got heated when we began to unearth the older photos showing boys swimming naked in the newspapers while the girls wore suits. The two mothers that wrote to Dear Abby did not necessarily agree with the double-standards, but certainly did evidence they existed with women they knew that prompted the writings.
 
The one that really stood out was the mother that not only believed it was proper for the boys to be naked while the girls clothed (close to teens too) at her lake house, but, did it intentionally to let the girls see the penises and balls of the boys because "boys should not keep secrets from girls", and even told her sister she should also have her own soon be naked in front of her daughter for the same reason.
 
The other letter revealed a family with boys that swam naked in the backyard pool and held the belief that "it is proper for girls to see what boys look like, but not proper for boys to see what girls look like". It also hit to the core of the matter as it specifically identified the desirability of girls looking at naked boys as part of the purpose for such practice.
 
What they incorporate goes beyond just an innocent disparity in dress that "boys will be boys" and the boys not wearing suits was tied to their own carefree spirit or ease in not dealing with wet bathing suits.....it takes it further in recognition of the thoughts of women of the day, and that is, it recognizes that with some grown women there was a more important reason for the boys to be naked, and that was they specifically wanted the boys to be naked in the presence of the girls their age such that it allowed the girls to look at the genitals of the boys.
 
And it is that last discovery that I think we are all finding pretty surprising, if not shocking. I can't believe it was the one-off mom, but other families and places where the girls were clothed while the boys were not may have had some comparable motivation. Granted, not always, but I refer you to the photo posted a few weeks ago with 15 naked boys and 2 clothed girls swimming in a river in front of a score of adults that orchestrated the affair, and the German inscription on the back of the photo mentioned how the girls were getting an anatomy lesson on boys - once again not only focusing on the boys' enjoyment, but also addressing, in a humorous yet approving way, the visual opportunities the girls had in seeing all the boys naked. Yes, to put it succinctly, the letters prove many women wanted a CFNM environment for the benefit of the girls and the voyeuristic opportunities it gave them. It magnifies the double-standard in that it was just a preference for the boys, but the girls as well.
 
In the next few weeks I think I'll have some additional evidence of this as I purchase more batches of photos and journals/letters that cannot be downloaded for free. It is a real long project, but with each of my past successes I'm motivated to unearth more of this anthropologic mission.
 
Only on this board does that somehow twist itself into something erotic, at least as we envision our own confrontations in CFNM, such as when I'm at a clothing-optional beach and all the pretty girls are wearing bathing suits but all the guys are parading about them stark naked.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #224 on: Nov 3rd, 2010, 6:40pm »
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BRAD, he was not pulling your leg. Some things he mentioned took place into the 50s and early 60s.  LEO C
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #225 on: Nov 3rd, 2010, 7:02pm »
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on Nov 3rd, 2010, 7:56am, Nudist/Exibitionist wrote:

 
This was still a pretty repressive time for women. Kids often like to be naked. With the boys it was probably seen as "boys will be boys." While the girls were probably taught from a young age "you need to be a lady, you need to be modest, you need to cover your private areas."
 
I've even heard from nudist friends that double standard is still alive and well today. Non-nudist friends find out that their little boy skinny dips in their pool and think nothing of it. Find out that their daughter does the same and suddenly it's "you let her do that, infront of her brother and her Dad?"

 
Actually this wasn't really repressive for girls, but profoundly anti-male.
Even a girl's brother and father are considered too innately evil and dangerous to see her naked.
This is a sign of a female dominated society, and such societies are always repressive.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #226 on: Nov 3rd, 2010, 11:27pm »
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I thought I would throw in a little experience that I had when I was younger. I was 4 years older than my little brother. I remember an occaision where a little girl the same age (I think they were 4 or 5) as my brother came over to spend the night. Her mother came over with her to visit with my mother for a while, as they were very close friends. When it was bed time, they took both children to the bathroom and gave them a bath together. They were allowed to play in the water for a while, both of them naked.
When I asked about them being in the tub together, my mom said that it was good for them to be able to see what each other looked like.
Granted, this was not CFNM but it does illustrate that mothers did have those kind of thoughts in the normal course of daily life. This happened in 59 or 60.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #227 on: Nov 4th, 2010, 6:44pm »
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on Nov 3rd, 2010, 11:27pm, Maverick wrote:
I thought I would throw in a little experience that I had when I was younger. I was 4 years older than my little brother. I remember an occaision where a little girl the same age (I think they were 4 or 5) as my brother came over to spend the night. Her mother came over with her to visit with my mother for a while, as they were very close friends. When it was bed time, they took both children to the bathroom and gave them a bath together. They were allowed to play in the water for a while, both of them naked.
When I asked about them being in the tub together, my mom said that it was good for them to be able to see what each other looked like.
Granted, this was not CFNM but it does illustrate that mothers did have those kind of thoughts in the normal course of daily life. This happened in 59 or 60.

 
 
That's a good idea even for somewhat older children. But it won't get much use in a society where everybody's worried about the anti-family, anti-reason brigade.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #228 on: Nov 6th, 2010, 3:30am »
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I remember when I was a little kid watching  "What' My Line" on t.v. and one of the guest was a woman who said she was a lifeguard at the y.m.c.a.. When she was asked to explain she said the swimmers were all boys around twelve. Smiley
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #229 on: Nov 6th, 2010, 8:57am »
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on Nov 6th, 2010, 3:30am, abel wrote:
I remember when I was a little kid watching "What' My Line" on t.v. and one of the guest was a woman who said she was a lifeguard at the y.m.c.a.. When she was asked to explain she said the swimmers were all boys around twelve. Smiley

 
Son of a gun! I remember seeing that show too! Lotta years ago....
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Re: Brad Offers Apologies
« Reply #230 on: Nov 7th, 2010, 3:38am »
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on Sep 26th, 2010, 8:17am, Brad wrote:
This is a milestone. After many, many hours of research, I have FINALLY found absolute proof that:

 
1. It was mandatory for these boys to swim completely nude in government-sponsored programs;
 
2. In the program below, these boy could not be younger than 10 but could be as old as 15 years in age in Junior High,
 
3. Female swimming instructors supervised these classes, and,
 
4. Parents of both gender would watch the boys - in one meet it was reported 650 family members showed.

 
I began to research newspaper articles of a public swimming program sponsored by the Department of Public Recreation in Sheboygan, Wisconsin in the 1950s. This program sponsored swim classes for boys and girls up through high school.
 
Here's are two - the first was in 1952 and clearly states "boys swim in the nude":
 

 
Here is a 1959 article that reiterates that the boys are not to wear swim trunks during class:
 

 
 
Now, here's where the program gets interesting. As with the other articles, it indicates towards the end that the girls will wear swimming suits, but "swimming suits are not required for boys".
 
However, it says that the classes will have four supervisors, two men for the morning classes, and a man and a woman - Miss Evelyn Hern, for the afternoon classes. But if you're thinking Miss Hern will only be with the girls, you're mistaken. The article discusses how it will be a *boys-only* program from Nov through Feb, then a girls-only program thereafter. This meant that Miss Hern was there supervising the afternoon sessions for the boys, which was to be the Junior High boys swim class. Although it indicated anyone that couldn't make the morning classes could be in her afternoon classes. And I would guess a lot of the boys had excuses why the couldn't make the morning session and instead had to be in her class! Wink
 

 
 
The following one is even more curious. It mentions again that only the girls wear swimsuits, but then at the end discusses how families were invited one day to stand on the balconies right above the pool and watch the boys compete. 550 men and women showed to watch the boys. It doesn't state if others were there, but with 550 people watching, you'd assume it was pretty much open, and you might think girls would have been part of such a large crowd.
 
I can't imagine how it felt to be a, say, 14 year old boy on that day swimming stark naked as hundreds of females watched me.
 
It should also be noted that this year a Miss Maradel Honold was in charge, although it doesn't provide evidence she was supervising the boys as it does in the previous one.
 

 
 
 
SOOOOO, Alan, you've been vindicated. Hell, you may have been in one of these classes!
 

 
 
There's no image.I just see a little square that says "Tiny pic image or video has been removed"
Were these photos or images of newspaper clippings?
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #231 on: Nov 7th, 2010, 3:45am »
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on Nov 2nd, 2010, 6:41pm, Brad wrote:
To be proper, I'd hope that the remainder of any such photos would reflect the points we are trying to make. If they are of just boys in a locker room, they should not be posted. The only exception is when those photos evidence that the lack of concern about exposing the nudity of boys to the female population was so significant that such publications were in newspapers, Life Mag, etc.
 
With that being said, one of the biggest challenges we've had in proving that female coaches did indeed coach nude boys while in their swim classes is the lack of photographs. However, this thread is not dead yet and I'm hopeful we'll make that final conclusion.
 
However, I've discovered some vintage postcards (note, these will be repeated on the Victorian thread when I post some written accounts I'm researching). The problem is that the further we go back in time, the fewer pictorial evidence there is for just about anything. Newspapers rarely had drawings before a certain period because technology made them harder to print. This relegates us to vintage photos, journal and book illustrations and postcards. Few of these focused on anything other than grandiose topics or staged photos.
 
Here's a website that discusses why we don't have much pictorial evidence showing public nude bathing at the beach and elsewhere:
 
http://www.metropostcard.com/metropcbloga4.html
 
Scroll down to below where it says "The Shifting Tides of Seaside Postcards" where it reads:
 
"While it seems only natural to bathe without the encumbrance of clothing when in the privacy of ones own home, public bathing cannot be separated from a whole range of additional criteria governing everything from rules of modesty to social status. One must be careful not to interpret these postcards with a contemporary eye if their true meaning is to be understood.....Those who dared to venture into cooling water on hot summer days usually chose small ponds where there was far less risk of drowning. Swimming was primarily an activity of children as frivolity could be more overlooked in youth. It was also an activity usually partaken of in the nude and rules governing modesty were not so stringently applied toward the young. Even though people were once more modest in dress, taboos on nudity tended to be far less prevalent than they are today; they very much existed but were generally confined to particular hours and settings. Such images are rarely captured on postcards for attitudes toward nudity had drastically changed during the Victorian era just prior to the advent of postcards."
 
The following watercolor off of the above website is a painting of a seaside scene during that era:
 

 
Note the two boys, one in the water and one on the diving platform, both totally naked. Yet a girl of similar age tries to crawl onto the same plank fully clothed, and a nursemaid or mother sits on the banks and watches them. This evidences that boys of the same age as those discussed in the YMCA pool swim classes swam naked out in the open in front of women during the earlier days of the same period.
 
After about a month of research, I'm beginning to discover very old photos on the Internet. Most of these are postcards and I have to purchase them in bulk. I've already purchased my fifth batch of postcards and old photos and am beginning to find some interesting ones.
 
 
 
The first depicts a large group of people posing. Notice the three boys in front, all of whom are stark naked. They have girls around them (clothed) and one naked boy appears to be about 12 or 13:
 

 
 
 
Here's another, but the nude boys are younger:
 

 
 
The following one tells a lot, and was posted previously. It shows two girls of a similar age turning and talking to a naked boy, who is embarrassed and holds his hands over his genitals hiding them from the girls - it speaks to the embarrassment these naked boys went through:
 

 
 

 
 
 
Finally, the fact that all of these women have their boys swim naked at the public beach lets one knows that it was common and expected, at least during the time and location of this photo:
 

 
 
The point is for the naysayers...if it was common for boys of the same age as those that swim without trunks at the Y to swim that same way at public beaches a few decades before, why is it hard to believe that female teachers taught swim classes to boys that swam nude?
 
Of course, we see the trend change over the 20th century, as it also changed over the 19th.

 
 
 
 
Again,it says "image not found".Isn't there a way to prevent these from being deleted?One the ne hand, the post is one of, "look,here's photographic proof", but then that proof isn't actually there anymore.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #232 on: Nov 7th, 2010, 7:32am »
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Any time you find a useful image grab it.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #233 on: Nov 7th, 2010, 11:59am »
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on Nov 7th, 2010, 3:45am, somedude wrote:

 
 
 
 
Again,it says "image not found".Isn't there a way to prevent these from being deleted?One the ne hand, the post is one of, "look,here's photographic proof", but then that proof isn't actually there anymore.

 
There is a member on this board that disagrees with our posting these, and certainly misunderstands the intent.  He is no doubt contacting the file host and telling them to take it down.
 
Threads like this you must follow and grab it when you can.   I'm sure some of the other members grabbed it.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #234 on: Nov 7th, 2010, 12:01pm »
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on Nov 6th, 2010, 3:30am, abel wrote:
I remember when I was a little kid watching "What' My Line" on t.v. and one of the guest was a woman who said she was a lifeguard at the y.m.c.a.. When she was asked to explain she said the swimmers were all boys around twelve. Smiley

 
 
You must be referring to What's My Line - Episode #474 - Game 1: Mirja Rose - ""Lifeguard at Y.M.C.A.""  
 
 
http://www.subfactory.fr/series.html&action=g_episode&serieID=88 7&tvdbepID=230920
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #235 on: Nov 7th, 2010, 5:56pm »
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Quote:
There is a member on this board that disagrees with our posting these, and certainly misunderstands the intent.  He is no doubt contacting the file host and telling them to take it down.
 
Threads like this you must follow and grab it when you can.   I'm sure some of the other members grabbed it.

 
I see. Let me just say that  taking offense at an image says more about the one VIEWING the image than it does about the image itself. As far as "grabbing it when you can"....It's never occurred to me to do that, since I can't imagine why a site would take down old photos of people at a beach or pool or what not, or even photocopy of newspapers articles(which is even more perplexing). I guess, if it's ok with you, i'll take this time to officially make a request to anyone who grabbed the photos and newspaper clipping ,to provide it.The images are from reply #51 , #59, #128, and #236. Maybe repost it here, or post it somewhere else.If anyone takes up this request then i would also ask,if it's not too much trouble,if you could specify which post the images belong too.I'd like to associate the images to the post.Thank you in advance.
 
 
 
Also, i want to say regarding your earlier post,Brad, about there being an exhibition day for families to come watch their sons swim: one paragraph says
 
"All boys registered for instruction are requested to bring their own towels to each of the classes.Swimming trunks or suits will not be used."
 
The paragraph after that one says  
 
"parents are invited to attend the exhibition period Saturday afternoon,April 26.Boys will be awarded YMCA buttons and certificates if they pass a standard YMCA swimming test at that time."
 
I'm not sure that implies that boys will be naked during the exhibition day.It seems to me the classes will be unsuited, but the exhibition day, the boys will be suited. To further my belief that the boys were suited during the exhibition day, I point to this:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ejlYnw9NfYQC&pg=PA229&dq=boys+s wim+ymca+swimsuits&hl=en&ei=9gvXTPbqE8T38AbDy_ifCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CEgQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=boys%20swim%20ymca%20swimsuits&f=false
 
He (the writer of the book at the link) says:
 
 "When I was a little kid, we boys all swam naked at the YMCA.The one exception was when moms and sisters were invited for special events."
 
Now, I'm not saying I don't believe boys ever would swam nude with female spectators, but I'm reluctant to believe this happened at the YMCA.I could be wrong, but I see this sort of thing happening more at lakes and beaches and the like.
Another lonk I wanted to give was this one:
http://books.google.com/books?id=_uACAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA68&lpg=PA68&a mp;dq=%22Farm+and+Wilderness%22+nudity&source=bl&ots=JhWOtnhobD&sig=r-R_j98k78960WoQJ3N_rtJIh94&hl=en&ei=JeI0TNaqJYL78Abp4N2HAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CCsQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=%22Farm%20and%20Wilderness%22%20nudity&f=false
 
This link isn't necessarily one of CFNM,as girls were also naked, but it does show that nude swimming did occur at camps....for those who believe no form of nude swimming ever occurred anywhere.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #236 on: Nov 8th, 2010, 11:28am »
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Quote:
Now, I'm not saying I don't believe boys ever would swam nude with female spectators, but I'm reluctant to believe this happened at the YMCA.I could be wrong, but I see this sort of thing happening more at lakes and beaches and the like.

 
Remarkable. I cannot tell if you are saying that female instructors and lifeguards never saw nude boys at Ys or not, but if you are -- are you? - it seems that all of Brad's hard work and sleuthing has been lost on you.
 
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #237 on: Nov 8th, 2010, 2:26pm »
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There may have been female instructors at the Y,but I don't believe boys swam nude during the family nights. The newspaper clipping posted by brad I didn't get to see because they were removed, but I imagine that the article says boys don't wear swimsuits for their classes only.It probably goes without saying that they wore suits during the family day when everyone came to watch.As in my post above, where the guy mentioned swimming nude except on the days people came to watch, then they wore suits.So, female instructors yes, nude with spectators  no.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #238 on: Nov 8th, 2010, 3:21pm »
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on Nov 7th, 2010, 5:56pm, somedude wrote:

 
I see. Let me just say that taking offense at an image says more about the one VIEWING the image than it does about the image itself. As far as "grabbing it when you can"....It's never occurred to me to do that, since I can't imagine why a site would take down old photos of people at a beach or pool or what not, or even photocopy of newspapers articles(which is even more perplexing). I guess, if it's ok with you, i'll take this time to officially make a request to anyone who grabbed the photos and newspaper clipping ,to provide it.The images are from reply #51 , #59, #128, and #236. Maybe repost it here, or post it somewhere else.If anyone takes up this request then i would also ask,if it's not too much trouble,if you could specify which post the images belong too.I'd like to associate the images to the post.Thank you in advance.
 
 
 
Also, i want to say regarding your earlier post,Brad, about there being an exhibition day for families to come watch their sons swim: one paragraph says
 
"All boys registered for instruction are requested to bring their own towels to each of the classes.Swimming trunks or suits will not be used."
 
The paragraph after that one says  
 
"parents are invited to attend the exhibition period Saturday afternoon,April 26.Boys will be awarded YMCA buttons and certificates if they pass a standard YMCA swimming test at that time."
 
I'm not sure that implies that boys will be naked during the exhibition day.It seems to me the classes will be unsuited, but the exhibition day, the boys will be suited. To further my belief that the boys were suited during the exhibition day, I point to this:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ejlYnw9NfYQC&pg=PA229&dq=boys+s wim+ymca+swimsuits&hl=en&ei=9gvXTPbqE8T38AbDy_ifCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CEgQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=boys%20swim%20ymca%20swimsuits&f=false
 
He (the writer of the book at the link) says:
 
 "When I was a little kid, we boys all swam naked at the YMCA.The one exception was when moms and sisters were invited for special events."
 
Now, I'm not saying I don't believe boys ever would swam nude with female spectators, but I'm reluctant to believe this happened at the YMCA.I could be wrong, but I see this sort of thing happening more at lakes and beaches and the like.
Another lonk I wanted to give was this one:
http://books.google.com/books?id=_uACAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA68&lpg=PA68&a mp;dq=%22Farm+and+Wilderness%22+nudity&source=bl&ots=JhWOtnhobD&sig=r-R_j98k78960WoQJ3N_rtJIh94&hl=en&ei=JeI0TNaqJYL78Abp4N2HAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CCsQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=%22Farm%20and%20Wilderness%22%20nudity&f=false
 
This link isn't necessarily one of CFNM,as girls were also naked, but it does show that nude swimming did occur at camps....for those who believe no form of nude swimming ever occurred anywhere.

 
 
What I really appreciate about your post is that when you challenge someone, you have links and documentation to argue why you believe the way you do. Damn, I wish everyone that challenged others were like you. It is all too often someone comes in here, makes a proclamation the other's post is wrong, and only does it because their gut tells them so as they believe they are simply wiser and smarter than the rest.
 
I too read your post about the guy at the Y and the fact that they wore suits on swim meet days. I *think* that that policy can be broadened to include most Ys. My posts included certain articles that were written on the local level with local school and swimming programs, and it is those programs that varied from the norm. One such article discussed how swim classes between boys and girls were separated by winter (boys) and spring (girls), and that each day for both seasons there were four instructors identified by name. One of the instructors in the afternoon was female, it if the article is accurate, she taught the boys swim classes in the afternoon. It was also indicated that the boys would not wear swimsuits during any of the classes. Again, this was a local swim class with the local parks department hosting it.
 
All we can do is all we can do. As with you, when I first posted in this thread, I said the same thing you did..that is, although it was clear boys swam naked during swim classes before the 1960s, there was absolutely no proof that there were ever any females present. Then, after many, many hours of research, I wasn't so sure. I then began to find evidence that indeed boys swam naked with females present and posted it here.
 
Now, if you roll it back to, say, pre-1920s, not only did boys swim naked, but it was common for them to do so at the beach with many females in their presence. The photograph evidence, which keeps getting deleted, showed these boys were often well into adolescence. So the question was posed, if it was acceptable for boys to swim nude at the beach, why would it be unacceptable for the boys to swim in a swim class nude with a female instructor. But here again, we're spanning several generations with global assumptions.
 
We're still figuring all this out, and yeah, I may be off base in a lot of my speculation. But I REALLy appreciate it when someone comes on board and says "not so fast...check this out...", as it really helps us understand and know the truth.
 
Thanks again for the post.
 
Btw...please see the post on Victorian - 1800s, I have some new stuff getting posted (assuming it doesn't get deleted)
 
 
 
 
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #239 on: Nov 11th, 2010, 6:36am »
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It seems to me that "somedude" has scored a point when he said that in his message :
 
"There may have been female instructors at the Y,but I don't believe boys swam nude during the family nights. The newspaper clipping posted by brad I didn't get to see because they were removed, but I imagine that the article says boys don't wear swimsuits for their classes only.It probably goes without saying that they wore suits during the family day when everyone came to watch.As in my post above, where the guy mentioned swimming nude except on the days people came to watch, then they wore suits.So, female instructors yes, nude with spectators  no"  
 
His previous message was underlining that with even more arguments.  
 
Of course it is only assumptions since nobody can be totally sure of how it was managed at that time.
 
As I am not american and has never experienced in France swimming lessons in the nude in schools or in youth centers and has never met anybody who experienced it, I cannot give anything else about that subject than my own opinion, after havind read a lot of posts in many discussions about it (there are  three or four discussions about that subject in the Education forum, and some of them  lasted since several years). If some messages are obviously pure fantasy, some others seems very credible.
 
Besides, it is a great surprise for me that american persons were so interested that they adressed so much messages during years about that subject!
 
As we can see in paintings or photos, it is obvious that in a far past, boys and even male teenagers were naked on beaches or on the side of
lakes and rivers. It is a fact which cannot be denied.
 
I don't know exactly when it changed for beaches, may be after the WW1,  it began to be different.
 
For lakes and rivers, I believe that it lasted certainly a more long time in some states of your country and also other countries.
 
Anyway, there is no doubt that american boys and male teenagers were often naked after WW2 for swimming lessons in schools of some states of your country or in some school districts, mainly in the Midwest, and in youth centers, and also some colleges. (and it seems that this rule or custom  was applied also in some schools in Canada or Australia)
 
There are so much relations in messages or even  articles in newspapers and some pictures about that that it would be non sense to deny that this rule or custom of boys swimming in the nude was a reality.
 
No matter for what reason, many reasons were given in messages and the debate is not closed.
 
May be among or aside other reasons as the cost of buying swim suits for families or schools considered as too high for boys whose modesty was not considered as a major issue by adults persons, the issue of keeping alll the school day a wet swim suit in a bag, some hygiena reasons, there was also the wish to follow manhood customs inspired by military customs.  
Adults were certainly thinking that boys and male teenagers were more in control when stark naked and that they had no reason to be modest and on the opposite that they might be used to be naked together in a manhood environment.  
 
It was obvious that the nudity of young men was not considered as a big deal as we can read in some relations of military physicals.
 
So why be more concerned by the respect of the modesty of boys, more over when like it seems to be the case according to some relations, most of the boys or at least a great number of them were so used to be naked that they had no real embarrassment and were even glad to swim naked because of the feeling of freedom when  swimming without any clothes.
 
That is a fact quite credible but I am more skeptical about a common presence of women observers when they swam naked for practice or even in swim meetings inter-schools.
I believe that it happened only occasionnally or accidentally if you prefer that mothers or sisters or female friends of mothers or sisters were present to observe swimming lessons with boys naked or at least that it was very seldom, not only in practices but also even in swim meetings.
 
Or may be as it seems logical, it was tolerated and  rather frequent with kids under 12 age but I doubt that it was frequent if it happened with pre-teens and teenagers. It was certainly on the reverse very seldom and it would have occured only   accidentally if the door of the swimming pool was not well closed or a curtain not enough protecting or if they were early and had to wait the end of the lesson and had a view by windows.  
 
And I don't believe at all that there could have been mixed lessons with boys naked and girls clothed with swim suits, except may be is some primary schools or for kids in youth centers.  
It would have been  too much a strange situation, except may be in a few of very, very special schools, which tried to experiment some different methods of education as "Summer hill".
 
It is different as regards the presence of a female instructor or a female  PE teacher to supervise swimming lessons with boys naked. For that situation,  I am almost certain that it happened sometimes.
why would it be admitted that boys and male teenagers could be naked sometimes in front of non medical women when they had school or sport
physicals and not in a swimming pool?
 
Of course, it was certainly not a common rule but it was certainly rather frequent for kids and even for pre-teens or teenagers when there was a need to sustitute for a male PE teacher or coach who was not available for different reasons (he was sick or he was gone in an other town to supervise a swim meeting and so on ..)  
 I believe that the members of a school board did not hesitate a very long time before asking to a woman instructor or PE teacher or coach to be in charge of  the swimming lessons of boys without too much consideration of their age.  
I assume that it could also happen in the youth centers, more especially with boys under 12 age who had to learn to swim.
 
In that case, I am quite sure that the women were told that the usual rules might be applied, that means that the boys might be in the nude for the swimming lessons as they were with a male instructor or PE teacher.
 
Some have said that these women could be young girls as college girls. I believe that it is credible, at least for the youth centers, but even in schools I assume that they could be PE students as sustitute teachers could generally be.
 
I assume also that it could happen even if it was certainly seldom  that an other female PE teacher, or a female nurse or even an other female teacher of any subject or a female clerk employed by the school came into the swimming pool during a lesson and could see the boys naked.
 
it could be to talk to the male instructor if it was a teacher or  to give information about a further school or sports physicals if it was a nurse or to put a letter or a form if it was a clerk.
 
An other question often discussed is that of girls classmates who could have seen the boys naked in the swimming pool and the locker room even if it was not mixed lessons.
 
I doubt also that it was very frequent but I believe nevertheless that it could happen if a school was co-ed, not deliberately (I don't think that the parents of the girls would have agreed that their daughters could see their male classmates in the nude), but rather accidentally.
 
For the same obvious reasons mentioned previously, it was likely to happen that the doors were not well closed or stayed largely opened  or that the curtains were not well closed or enough protecting from the view of outside persons or even if a class of girls came early to the swimming pool before the end of the boy's lesson or the reverse the boys were late to end their lesson while the girls were already coming for the following lesson. In that latter case, the view was certainly very quick because I assume that they were told to come out of thge swiming pool and to wait outside.
 
In some posts, we can read that some girls had found a hole in a wall or a door and could spy the boys.
why not if they were not caught because I cannot believe that teachers school authorities admitted that if they knew that it happened.  
 
It might not be frequent because there was certainly in most of the schools a great separation between boys and girls in schedules of their lessons, may be more for reasons of decency than by big concernof the school authorities to the modesty of the boys but anyway the result was the same.  
If it was known that girls could have a glance on naked boys during swimming lessons, the parents could have complained, if not those of boys , those of girls!
 
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #240 on: Nov 11th, 2010, 8:15pm »
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I will re-post some of the more pertinent news articles. For those interested, please save now.
 
The point to be made in some of these is that the newspapers felt it was acceptable to post large photos of the boys swimming naked, one of whom was identified by name and showed naked from head to foot:
 

 
The point is that if no one cared that this photo not only showed this boy naked for everyone to see in his community, including his female classmates, it is not unreasonable to think that women would be allowed in the same pool area.
 
 
The following is the 1951 article pertaining the the Sheboygan Dept. of Public Recreation and the swim classes for boys and girls up through junior high. It is clearly indicated that there are four instructors for the two seasonal sessions, three men and one woman. The boys have the pool exclusively from Nov. through February, then the girls classes begin in February.
 
Other articles that discuss this same Sheboygan swim program indicate that because so many students would enroll (in the hundreds) they needed multiple instructions for each session (I posted that article previously). There are two instructors assigned to each session and according to this article, the afternoon session for both seasons was taught by Lloyd Melvers and Evelyn Horn. Boys that couldn't make the early sessions in the day ware allowed to attend the afternoon session.  
 
The article concludes with indicating the boys would not wear swimsuits during the classes.
 

 
Although this is not definitive proof, the article is either a) wrong/inaccurate and there was another male instructor for the afternoon classes, or b) Ms. Horn taught swimming classes wherein the boys swam naked.
 
No, we're not saying this was the case at the Y, or that it was common. And like anything, one can dice this up, put their own spin on it and claim what actually happened was something different - but before you go there, you're guessing and such a supposition is inconsistent with what the article is saying.
 
Lastly, for those that never read the articles that were posted but then deleted, please don't say "I'm sure it said...." as you simply are guessing and don't know. Those of us that found the articles and posted them *do* know what was said.
« Last Edit: Nov 11th, 2010, 8:16pm by Brad » IP Logged
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #241 on: Nov 11th, 2010, 9:04pm »
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First, are those actual photos or sketchings?Hard to tell.Also , the text is hard to see.I know this may be asking alot, but could you type it out?
 
 
I'm making an edit to my post to specify that it's the text in the first article I can't see.The second one i can make out ok.
« Last Edit: Nov 11th, 2010, 9:08pm by somedude » IP Logged


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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #242 on: Nov 12th, 2010, 12:05am »
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I have seen newsreels showing troops being given physicals en mass during WWII walking stark naked through the induction center.  But they showed them from the backside.  No one objected as far as I know.  But this doesn't mean that there were women present during the induction process.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #243 on: Nov 12th, 2010, 1:48am »
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on Nov 11th, 2010, 9:04pm, somedude wrote:
First, are those actual photos or sketchings?Hard to tell.Also , the text is hard to see.I know this may be asking alot, but could you type it out?
 
 
I'm making an edit to my post to specify that it's the text in the first article I can't see.The second one i can make out ok.

 
 
Here's the entire newspaper page from the Sheboygan Press - it will give you an idea how much of the page the photo took up. Although the file is less than 1 MB in size, you can clearly see it is a photo. This newspaper was scanned with an OCR during the conversion. This means that a good .pdf program will allow you to copy text from it, or, search for key words, which is why a search was able to find it. The newspaper archive website that located it for me was newspaperarchive.com.  I think you can get a free trial.  Subscription is expensive, but I felt it was worth knowing what's out there.
 
 
http://depositfiles.com/files/fuytzzg4y
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #244 on: Nov 12th, 2010, 4:26am »
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"somedude" has written :
 
"I have seen newsreels showing troops being given physicals en mass during WWII walking stark naked through the induction center.  But they showed them from the backside.  No one objected as far as I know.  But this doesn't mean that there were women present during the induction process. [i][/i]
 
it was true also in France
I have seen like him a few newsreels and photos in news magazines at the time when  there was still a mandatory military service  and group physicals in the nude showing draftees walking naked through induction process
it was more recent than the WW2, rather in the 60's.  
 
The draftees were always showed backside with naked buttocks and no one objected to that.
 
It was well known by everybody that the young men had to endure group physicals performed naked. So It was not a surprise.
I am convinced also that nobody asked for the agreement of the draftees to be shown  naked.
 
And there was never women present during the induction process when pictures were shot.
it does not prove that it never happened but it was not shown.
 
And as I have already said, the view of the naked buttocks of boys, teenagers or young men was not considered as undecent as it would have been for male genitals or even naked buttocks of women.
it was more considered as funny.
 
Some photos in magazines could be seen  by a very large audience at that time, including of course women and even teenage girls who could laugh at the view of the young men but it was not a great issue    
 
At time of war, I presume that it might be different because men could be older but it was certainly  considered  the same as for younger men and no one objected.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #245 on: Nov 12th, 2010, 4:51am »
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As regards one former post of "Brad" with one photo of male high school students identified by name and showed naked from head to toe and news articles, I do not agree with one of his comment :
 
" The point is that if no one cared that this photo not only showed this boy naked for everyone to see in his community, including his female classmates, it is not unreasonable to think that women would be allowed in the same pool area".
 [i][/i]
 
I was not a witness and I can only express an opinionbut I don't think that it was the same to have a photo with naked boys and to allow women in the same pool area.
 
At that time, I am not sure that girls classmates were reading newspapers but I recognize that it is likely that if one parent, the mother or the father or a sibling, read it and noticed that it was the school of the girls, they called the girls to show them the articles and the photos of their boys classmates.
 
But even in that case, it is not enough a clue that the boys were exposed to the view of women during their lessons or practices.
 
it is not the same to look at a photo and to see really in front of your eyes some one naked.
 
may be you are right and may be not!
 
And there was two different photos which were not shot at the same time, one, that of girls wearing swimsuits, was shot early in the morning, at 8hand the other, that of boys naked with one of then diving in the water was shot later in the morning, at 10h30 and it is said in the article that there was a big difference between girls and boys at the recreation department swimming classes activities but it seems that they were separated.
 
I am sorry but I do not succeed in reading the second article.
 
anyway, for the second point, the presence of women instructors during swimming lessons of boys in the nude, it is different. I have no doubt that it happened and you found a very credible clue of that.  
 
 
« Last Edit: Nov 12th, 2010, 5:02am by easter_man_10 » IP Logged
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #246 on: Nov 12th, 2010, 10:56am »
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on Nov 12th, 2010, 4:51am, easter_man_10 wrote:

 
I am sorry but I do not succeed in reading the second article.
 

 
 
I figured 'treat others how you want to be treated',so I typed it out for you.Here you go:

Department of Public Recreation sponsored grade school activities for boys and girls in the fourth through eighth grades will be provided at four centers starting Saturday morning ,November 17.
For several years,the outstanding feature of the program has been the Junior Athletic Club for boys.Each boy is given an oppurtunity to participate in a self-testing program,and upon completionof each series of tests, he is awarded a white, red,or blue ribbon. Upon completion of the medal test and advanced swimmers test, he can obtain a gold metal. The Junior Athletic Club also provides an oppurtunity to play low and high organized games.Robert Griffith acts as supervisor at North High school ,John Van Veghel at Central High school, Al Willers at South Side Junior High school,and Fred Goettel at Jefferson school.
Swimming instruction for beginners and advanced boys and girls is provided under the supervision of Lester Wilke and Henry Rilling.The afternoon swimming program is under supervision of Lloyd Melners and Miss Evelyn Hern.
The Junior Athletic Club and swimmers are closely coordinated with an educational handicraft program.Boys and girls will have the experience of using woodworking tools under the supervision of qualified instructors. Arden Wandrey conducts the handicraft class at North High school, John Bicanich at Central High school,Rudolph Grob at South Side Junior High,Mrs. Gretchen Hunrath and Miss Myrtle Hansen at Central High school,William Rendall at Jefferson,and Arvin Ahif at Washington.
Afternoon swimming classes have been scheduled for junior high school students. However,if boys and girls are unable to participate in recreational swimming during the morning sessions,they are privileged to attend at that time.
The 1:00 to 2:00 p.m swimming class scheduled for boys November 17 to February 16 is specifically designed as a beginners' swimming class and a period to test boys to pass the swimmers' test. Starting February 23,this class will be scheduled as girls' beginner swimming class.
There is no charge made for participation in the grade school activities,the only requirement is that boys bring towels for showers and swimming and that the girls bring a bathing cap and towel. Swimming suits are furnished to girl swimmers. Swimming suits are not required for boys.

 
 
on Nov 12th, 2010, 4:51am, easter_man_10 wrote:

 
And there was two different photos which were not shot at the same time, one, that of girls wearing swimsuits, was shot early in the morning, at 8h and the other, that of boys naked with one of then diving in the water was shot later in the morning, at 10h30 and it is said in the article that there was a big difference between girls and boys at the recreation department swimming classes activities but it seems that they were separated.

 
 
I agree.The picture (sketches?) makes it look like the girls were sitting in on the boys practice. I'm glad Brad uploaded the newspaper page because reading the article clears up that the 2 photos (or sketches?) were taken at 2 different times.
 
 
One more thing:
on Nov 12th, 2010, 4:26am, easter_man_10 wrote:
"somedude" has written :
 
"I have seen newsreels showing troops being given physicals en mass during WWII walking stark naked through the induction center.  But they showed them from the backside.  No one objected as far as I know.  But this doesn't mean that there were women present during the induction process.

 
Youngren posted that,not me.
« Last Edit: Nov 12th, 2010, 11:00am by somedude » IP Logged


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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #247 on: Nov 12th, 2010, 2:20pm »
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Thanks Rodney!Brad already provided a link where the newspaper clipping could be downloaded.I downloaded it and it helped in being able to read the text. Either way, I still appreciate your gesture. Grin
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #248 on: Nov 13th, 2010, 2:53am »
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It doesn't surprise me that female nurses would be present during physicals.  Nurses have been seeing naked male patients for at least 100 years.  That a civilian clerk was present surprises me.  I since I was in the military in 1970 I am sure it was rare.  The military is usually very conservative about sexual matters.
 
I did see a documentary on televsion about prostitution in Hawaii during WWII and the military actually set the price.  There would be long lines of sailor each waiting their turn.  Some prostitution didn't put their clothes on all day long.  I forget how long each man was allowed with a prostitute.  It was only a few minutes.
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Re: Female Coaches with nude male swim teams
« Reply #249 on: Nov 14th, 2010, 7:01am »
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Here some inconveniences of boys swimming nude  Grin
 
http://imgsrc.ru/fkk-lover/20589973.html#bp
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