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   Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
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PC
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« on: Nov 16th, 2008, 8:54pm »
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There's no hope of convincing some people of the simple truth that different times had different cultures.
People who've spent their lives in the context of today's puritanical, sex-obsessed culture can't grasp it.
Yes, puritanical. A zero-tolerance orientation is puritanical orientation whether the subject is weapons or not "offending" anyone.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #1 on: Nov 23rd, 2008, 8:43am »
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Some interesting post there. Institutional forced nudity, Humiliation, girls should be put in jail for looking at boys. Some very bizarre thoughts. I have to suspect that most of those posters have never experienced nude swimming and are just guessing on what things were like years ago.  
 Some even suggest the buildings were designed so that boys would be exposed. Some people sure go off the deep end. My opinion only. Did it a lot as a youngster, dont remember any boys being traumitized or having a problem with it. Some people have a problem with it appairently but you cant change history. Just the way things were. As far as I can remember, boys never gave it a thought.  Have no idea as to what females thought as it was never discussed.    LEO C
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #2 on: Nov 23rd, 2008, 10:24am »
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That's funny. I never noticed that one.
Buildings were built according to architechtural standards. Those included the purpose of the building, but the purpose in such cases was athletic activities and not nudism.
There may have been glitches due to buildings constructed for other purposes being modified or athletic facilities undergoing changes for various reasons over the years, but anything allowing for deliberate peeking would either have been accidental or small scale secret modification by people using the structures.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #3 on: Nov 23rd, 2008, 5:09pm »
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on Nov 23rd, 2008, 10:24am, PC wrote:
There may have been glitches due to buildings constructed for other purposes being modified or athletic facilities undergoing changes for various reasons over the years, but anything allowing for deliberate peeking would either have been accidental or small scale secret modification by people using the structures.

It worked both ways, sometimes, too.  In my junior high school, a new boys gym had been built, and the girls took over both sides of the old locker room.  But one of the baffles, protecting an outside door that opened on the access route to the showers, wasn't quite as large as it should have been.  In warm weather, when doors and windows were open for ventilation, there was a partial sight-line into the former boys side, from one of the second-floor boys restrooms.  It hadn't been a problem, before!  But the girls, I was given to understand, had been warned and were strictly instructed to wrap their towels around their bodies, on the way to and and from the showers.  
 
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #4 on: Nov 26th, 2008, 11:24am »
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 Might be going a bit far calling some of the posters nut cases however some say at least they were overly traumatised or humiliated to the point of being bitter to all women years later. Awful big post and it would be impossible to go thru the whole thing but when doing random hits, clearly people with past problems do show up and they are bitter. On the other hand they could be making the whole anger thing up.
  As I was growing up, I nor my friends we allowed to make fun or humiliate anyone. Fat kids of both genders, some affected by polio, crooked teeth, bad complection, you name it. It was not allowed in school or at home. In my view only, must have been some serious situations for these views to fester over the years.  Looks like some were traumitised by mothers supposidely FORCING them to swim nude, others are mad as hell that females were able to see them nude while they remained clothed. Strange how some things can mark a person for life.  
 Guess I am fortunate that things worked out good for me as far as I know. For instance, some are addimant that they could never go nude as a youngster. After all the years growing up, how do they know if they never did it? I have a suspicion that a lot of negative views are just made up by someone trying to stir the pot.  LEO C
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easter_man_10
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #5 on: Nov 26th, 2008, 5:53pm »
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thank you Leo for your comments, I think like you that some persons are not credible when they say they were  really traumatized for life.
 
Even for a shy and modest  boy who did not like to be seen nude , it was in the past, since that time, he must have overcome his embarrassment.
 
More over, it seems that most of the time, the boys did not know that some girls tried to see them when they were naked  in the edge of the swimming pool, it was not a common situation and the girls were spying them too have a look.  
 
It is true that there was also some relations of mothers or sisters attending to the lessons while the boys were naked. But most of the time, the boys said that they were not embarrassed at that time.
 
It seems to me that it is above all young men who have not known themselves that situation who are incensed by the witnesses of women who said that they could peek at the boys by a hole in a door or something like that...
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #6 on: Nov 27th, 2008, 8:42am »
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There are also some accounts of boys in the school swimming teams competing naked in front of mixed spectators. They didn't mind because they were used to it.
Even while practicing in the nude there were often sisters and mums present.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #7 on: Nov 27th, 2008, 2:52pm »
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it seems that it was not a common rule in all the United States.
 
Some men said that they were never naked in presence of mixed spectators, only for school swim classes in front of their classmates and  male teachers, some others said that it could happen that mothers and sisters were attending to their swimm classes, particularly at the YMCA, or during  practice of swim with the team or for competition between different  school teams.
 
I think that they were all right, why some were lying? they had not lived the same situations because the rules  could be different in function of the schools and the towns.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #8 on: Nov 27th, 2008, 5:53pm »
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on Nov 27th, 2008, 2:52pm, easter_man_10 wrote:
it seems that it was not a common rule in all the United States.
 
Some men said that they were never naked in presence of mixed spectators, only for school swim classes in front of their classmates and  male teachers, some others said that it could happen that mothers and sisters were attending to their swimm classes, particularly at the YMCA, or during  practice of swim with the team or for competition between different  school teams.
 
I think that they were all right, why some were lying? they had not lived the same situations because the rules  could be different in function of the schools and the towns.  

 
They were not telling lies.  
It was a general practice that varied from place to place.
Nobody made that stuff up, which is why there are different stories by different persons.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #9 on: Jan 6th, 2009, 2:33pm »
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Also moving this up.  LEO C
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #10 on: Jan 7th, 2009, 1:44am »
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on Nov 23rd, 2008, 11:28am, Rodney wrote:

 
Very true, PC. A case in point was the old Harmon Gym at the University of California, built in the early 20th century and razed in the 1990s. When built, it was just assumed that the only people with any reason at all to be in the gym's basement would be men. Accordingly, no provisions whatever were made for modesty in the men's locker room.  Even when women began working or attending classes in the basement, it would have been prohibitively costly to remodel the locker room. So, in the decades before its demolition, females in the basement of the gym were treated to the daily dick show.
 
One of my earlier posts includes accounts from other web sites that discuss this in great detail, so if anyone's interested, check the archives.
 
And I agree with Leo. Most of the posters on the Boys Nude Swim Gym Class forum are nut cases.

 
So, Rod...a Berkeley guy.  I am a Berkeley alum and I remember Harmon well.  The showers were in the basement and we had to walk a long corridor from the lockers to the showers and back again.  Some guys would bring their girls down there and we'd pass them in the corridor.  They looked and had thier fill.  So what?
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #11 on: Jan 9th, 2009, 7:33am »
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Just some general comments:
 
I believe the stories about Minnesota & the Harmon Gym. As previously stated, I never experienced nude swimming, and certainly not where females were present. Long Island didn't offer those opportunities, even in the "old days" of the 1960's & 1970's.  
I would have been traumitized if forced into such a situation back then, and would have resisted it. Leo_C grew up in a different environment than I did, so he can not understand how most Long Island boys would have had serious reservations regarding girls, or women seeking them naked, in the pool, locker room, or even in a medical situation. OK, maybe with a female doctor, if necessary, but not with any contemporary girls being present!
For those guys who experienced nude swimming with female presence, or the Harmon Gym, my guess is that they would have been secure both during the CFNM encounters, and afterwards, when their female classmates saw them dressed. That, as I have stated many times, is a positive by- product of CFNM, learning to be open & secure with the female gender!
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #12 on: Oct 16th, 2009, 12:43pm »
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 Sometimes I go back to this site when I have nothing to do. Pretty interesting and makes you aware of peoples different hang up. Right now people are outraged that boys had to go TOPLESS in gym class. Whats going on in this world ? Few more are into their bare butts being spanked in public.  
  Click on to the post listed and go to the last entry and then do previous post from there. Some scary people there.  LEO C
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #13 on: Oct 16th, 2009, 5:04pm »
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Since I am 65 years old and lived through the 50's and 60's I will comment on this.  It is true that time changes, but the 50's especially were a lot more sexually repressive than now.  The last half of the 60's was called "the sexual revolution" but it did not refer to public nudity or cfnm.  It is also true that during the 50's we swam naked in school and in the Y but there were never girls present.  
 
I believe the stories about incident where girls looked through cracks in the door and where there were incidents of cfnm because of architectural deficiencies.  Isolated stories of boys swimming naked in front of girls might also be true especially at swimming holes.  However, stories where it was accepted institutional practice of having boys swim naked in front of girls or even mothers are extremely doubtful.  My mother would have been horrified if she had been allowed to witness boys swimming in the nude.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #14 on: Oct 16th, 2009, 11:16pm »
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It was common practice, in fact it was the rule, that all boys in Chicago Public Schools had to swim naked until title 9 took effect and made gym classes co-ed.  We did not think anything of it.  We were expected to be stark naked for the entire gym period, since we had to walk from our lockers to the showers bare assed, shower without getting towels, swim, and then only get a towel to dry off and then walk through the locker room naked again  There could have been girls present at any point in the process; I just don't remember that they were there.
We guys thought nothing of it because many of us had older brothers who had been to pre-induction physicals for the draft, and since we knew that they could take control of our bodies for two years and do anything they wanted to us, being naked in gym class was hardly a big deal.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #15 on: Oct 19th, 2009, 8:41am »
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May be I have said that before in an other discussion  on the same subject but I was a student in France in the last 50's and the first half of the 60's for middle school and high school, so it was the time where boys had to swim naked in some schools of your country and it  was not a rule applied by the school authorities or the ministry of education in France, I have never heard, nor read anything about boys swimming naked in swim class in schools, at least in state schools.
 
But I don't think that it was because the school authorities and adults in charge of the education of boys were concerned by our embarrassment to be naked, I think rather that it was not a rule because nobody had thought about it.
 
In other circumstances as undressing in a locker gym,  or for mandatory showers or for an  annual physicals, we could notice that our modesty was not really respected, so there was no reason for being more respectful in swim lessons
 
I am nearly sure that if some schools had applied the rule, it would have been accepted by parents, and also students,even if some were much reluctant to be naked in group for so a long time than a lesson of an hour,  because we were used to do what we were told to do.  Some PE teachers, the older ones,  would have certainly thought that it was good to learn to boys discipline and to obtain more obedience during the swim class and toughen them for the students of high schools who were considered as draftees-to-be.
 
But I doubt very much about the fact that a female PE teacher could have been hired to give us swim lessons because at that time as schools were not co-ed, we had only  male PE teachers, may be it could have occured accidentally for a substitute teacher in case of urgency if the school had no other choice. I that case, I am sure that it would have been a middle age female PE teacher, not a young one.  
 
I doubt also that some girls could havebeen able to have a look on usswimming naked  in the swim pool, even through cracks in the door or by a swimming pool  hole in a locker room.
 
I believe also that most of the mothers would have been horrified if they had learned that some girls had a look, not only the mothers of the boys but above all the mothers of the girls because it would have been considered as really scandalous and indecent.
 
Of course, as some of you said, it could have happened accidentally if a group of girls come too early in the swimming pool when boys had not finished their lesson or if the boys were late or if they had passed  boys walking naked through a corridor coming from the swimming pool to  to go to the locker room and it would have been unvolontarily by the teachers.
 
But it is only an assumption !
 
As regards the account of "Nakeddad", I think that it was rather strict in his school  because boys stayed a long time naked, not only for the swim class but walking in corridors before and after but when he said "there could have been gorls present at any point of the process", it was also an assumption because he had never seen a girl in  
fact, he would have remembered of their presence!
 
About talking with older brothers, it was useful to know what to expect in swim class, but you knew also about pre-induction physicals for the draft, so did it mean that your brothers were talking in families of their physicals in a  pre-induction center for the draft, did your father and mother or sister knew it in details, did they knew that they were forced to undress naked  in a large group and undergo a long examination in the nude because they had related it at their return at home?  
 
In France, it was also known that boys had to undergo a thorough physicals for draft at 18 age at that time.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #16 on: Oct 19th, 2009, 11:28am »
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I have read the referenced post at Topix and similar discussions at other web boards.  
 
This is the internet, where anybody can pose as any identity without authentication. Some of those boards attach the commenter's location to each post and you can clearly see where some posts come from the same person having a discussion with himself using different assumed screen names. I believe they are just trying to stir up crap or satisfy their own fantasies. You just have to read with a critical eye.
 
However, before the 1970s or 1980s America was a very different place. This was a patriarchal society, women and children were to do as they were told and be happy about it.
 
It was simply how things were done. It was expected of us and was in our mindset that you showered after exercising. Nobody considered skipping the shower or had modesty on their minds. Today gym class is becoming extinct as are showers, so kids today cannot believe that boys showered naked in gang showers, let alone swam naked in a public high school or YMCA pool.  
 
There are a few photos on the internet from Life Magazine and local newspapers that showed middle and high school boys happily splashing around in the pool in the altogether, so doubters can be shown the truth.
 
No women were seen in those photos, however. I believe some of those credible accounts about swimming naked in the past have been conflated with women viewing from the stands as an embellishment.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #17 on: Oct 19th, 2009, 3:28pm »
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on Nov 16th, 2008, 5:37pm, Rodney wrote:

[Post #2070] "At Roosevelt h.s. in the 60's we were swimming naked and due to scheduling problems we shared the pool on fridays with the girls class...this was in my senior year...no one really cared or saw it as sexual, we were more focused on our swimming and not embarrased by girls seeing us naked.

I was not alive during the 60s, but the idea that high school guys in any era did not find anything sexually provocative about this situation is uterly ridiculous. The only way to account for this would be that the male population was mostly gay, which is statistically unlikely. So I call BS. Maybe the author thought that by desexualizing the story it would seem less like wank material, but it achieves the opposite as far as I'm concerned.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #18 on: Oct 19th, 2009, 4:20pm »
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Well, I think the point is -- that if you weren't there, you simply do not understand.  
 
Exactly.  
 
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #19 on: Oct 19th, 2009, 4:37pm »
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on Oct 19th, 2009, 3:28pm, teasedsilly wrote:

I was not alive during the 60s, but the idea that high school guys in any era did not find anything sexually provocative about this situation is utterly ridiculous.

 
There is a difference between a situation being sexually provocative (intentionally) and participants being naturally aroused from time to time (accidentally).
 
Now, I suspect that you find it sexually provocative, but be careful about imputing your motives onto other people, especially when they were in a different situation in a different era.
 
I have been to men-only nude swims and to mixed sex nude swims. The ones that were set up just to swim nude were nothing more than that. The ones that were set up to be sexually provocative and playful most certainly were!  
 
It would be interesting to get into a time machine and go back to the 1950s to experience what went on back then. I'm sure it would be an eye-opener on many levels!
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #20 on: Oct 19th, 2009, 4:49pm »
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The situation I quoted from was not male-only. The author was speaking specifically about the boys' reaction to being seen nude by female students. Again, a teen not turned on by being seen naked by a girl? Only plausible explanation is he is gay or has developmental problems.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #21 on: Oct 19th, 2009, 5:15pm »
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Incidentally I recognize I'm in no position to say what the 50s and 60s were like. But I have noticed when it comes to fetishes that plenty of people try to pass off fiction for fact in order to feed the fantasy. And yes, times change, but there's a limit to what I will believe on the word of an anonymous person on the Internet, "you had to be there" notwithstanding. Smiley
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #22 on: Oct 19th, 2009, 6:19pm »
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Quote:
Incidentally I recognize I'm in no position to say what the 50s and 60s were like.
 
 
Right. Not to mention the 1940s. I have written several times on this board that I personally, the actual guy typing this note, took swimming lessons in the 1940s at Y's around Boston in which the boys swam nude and for at least two classes we had clothed women instructors. We were all 11 or under (I think). One woman was the mother of a boy I knew but who was not taking our class. She was probably in her late 30s at the time. The other was younger, in her 20s.
 
It was not discretionary to be nude. We were told to be and we obeyed. Same with the instructors. They were our instructors, they had authority and we accepted them as such. No questions, quibbling or bitching. It was just the way it was.  If anything we, the boys, had the idea that it was more manly to swim nude. And to not be bothered by the presence of non-family females. But overall we paid it little heed. It was just the way it was. Saturday afternoon was Hopalong Cassidy movies (for 13 cents!). Swimming was nude. The instructors/lifeguards were in charge.
 
I know I did not consider it particularly sexy, in fact not sexy at all that we were nude and these adult women were not.  I seriously doubt any of the other boys did either. Sex was barefly a factor back then, and women were not thought of as much liking sex anyway. Unless there was strong proof to the contrary (and we boys did not even know what  could be considered such proof), no one thought women could find nude boys in any way sexy. Not only that, but the younger of my two instructors, the woman in her 20s, wore sometimes a yellow bathing suit, a tank suit, that fit her very well and that I found attractive but even so I did not think of her as sexy, nor did I have a sexy crush on her. I realize that sounds odd, but it is true. For anyone who had no such experiences I can only say you should think about that fact if you are serious about trying to put your mind and understanding back in those times.
 
I have, as I said, written about these experiences elsewhere on this board. You can search on my name and find them if you wish.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #23 on: Oct 19th, 2009, 6:55pm »
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on Oct 19th, 2009, 6:19pm, Allan_C. wrote:

Sex was barefly a factor back then, and women were not thought of as much liking sex anyway. Unless there was strong proof to the contrary (and we boys did not even know what  could be considered such proof), no one thought women could find nude boys in any way sexy.

 
I made a similar point over in the nude art model thread. This is the way I was raised by parents who were older than the norm and held these beliefs.
 
It was only when I was an adult that I started to become aware that women could actually find nude men remotely interesting. That's when things got interesting for me.
 
But things really were different back then. I did not live those times, but I know this based on plenty of evidence both on and off the internet. It's not that far-fetched.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #24 on: Oct 19th, 2009, 10:13pm »
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I never experienced the nude high school swims with girls or women watching, but I sure did experience the nude boys swims in high school. I moved away from my home town and when I tell new friends they are shocked. Today when boys don't even shower in gym my experience is considered impossible and shocking. Move back in time another 20 years and who would I be to say boys CFNM swims didn't happen?
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #25 on: Oct 19th, 2009, 10:32pm »
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As regards the account of "Nakeddad", I think that it was rather strict in his school  because boys stayed a long time naked, not only for the swim class but walking in corridors before and after but when he said "there could have been gorls present at any point of the process", it was also an assumption because he had never seen a girl in  
fact, he would have remembered of their presence!
 
About talking with older brothers, it was useful to know what to expect in swim class, but you knew also about pre-induction physicals for the draft, so did it mean that your brothers were talking in families of their physicals in a  pre-induction center for the draft, did your father and mother or sister knew it in details, did they knew that they were forced to undress naked  in a large group and undergo a long examination in the nude because they had related it at their return at home?  
 
In answer to your question.  One, I never saw a girl anywhere around; they could have been, but as far as I know, they never were.
 
In answer to your question, who knew about the nude swimming; everybody!  It was absolutely common knowledge because EVERY CHICAGO PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOL MANDATED IT!  You couldn't miss it.  As for the pre-induction physical, everybody knew that too.  Lets face it, you were going to be in a position where they could take your body away from you for two years and possibly cause your death.  A little thing like being naked, and trust me, it would not be the last time you would be forced to be naked, was not a big deal.  You have to remember that men are the disposable sex; a little thing like keeping boys nude is not a big deal.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #26 on: Oct 20th, 2009, 1:47am »
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Hey guys, lighten up. Have no reason to lie to you. These things did occure in the 50s and are more than likely not embelishments. Swam at the Y and on occasions there would be mothers and their daughters present. No, not every time but sometimes. Thought nothing of it.  
 TEASEDSILLY, you said you were not alive in the 60s. That says it all. There was nothing gay about it. You were born to late.  
  Also cant imagine a mother being concerned that her son swam nude. You are certainally applying your own morals to things that happen in the past. Believe it or not, my father allowed me to drink some of his beer when I was under 10 yrs. old. I was allowed to drive the family car before I had a license, I actually made explosives when I was 15 and I swam nude in the lake on family vacations when I was 11 or 12 yrs. old, in front of female cousins no less. I feel sorry for you in a way.  LEO C
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #27 on: Oct 20th, 2009, 3:19am »
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on Oct 20th, 2009, 1:47am, leo_c wrote:
You are certainally applying your own morals to things that happened in the past. Believe it or not, my father allowed me to drink some of his beer when I was under 10 yrs. old. I was allowed to drive the family car before I had a license, I actually made explosives when I was 15 and I swam nude in the lake on family vacations when I was 11 or 12 yrs. old, in front of female cousins no less. I feel sorry for you in a way.  LEO C

 
I did some of those things too, and I turned out alright because my parents taught me what it means to be responsible for my actions.  
 
It seems that America is being told what to fear (namely EVERYTHING) by CNN, Fox News, and whoever else has a vested interest in getting people riled up. So many things are simply fabricated dangers, including just being naked.  
 
If you're a guy, then being naked means you are gay. If you're a girl, then being naked means there must be a "perv" around waiting to pounce on you. The list goes on and on. People are afraid of their shadows today.
 
It's enough to make you wish for the 1950s as crazy as that sounds. People should lighten up and enjoy life, especially if that means we can swim nude for the enjoyment of the ladies. You won't find me arguing about that!
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #28 on: Oct 20th, 2009, 4:20am »
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It is true that some postmen too young who have not lived at that time have some difficulties to admit that some situations were normal in the past even if today it seems very odd and would be impossible.
 
It was why "teasedsilly" is so skeptical about facts which are related by others who have lived at the time when they occured.
 
It was not only situations in schools which were different but also the way of thinking, the feelings, the social norms.
 
As I was a student in France in the 60's, I am sure that there was no sexual thinkings when adults women saw young boys naked and also the reverse.
 
It would be stupid to believe at least at that time that a boy of about 11 age or under could have sexual thinkings about an attractive  woman who was the instructor for swimming lessons, so I can believe that Allan C had female instructors because he and his classmates were considered only as young kids, it was not at all scandalous at that time, nobody was thinking that it could be bad from a moral point of view that  boys under 12 age could be naked in front of adults women. May be, it would not have been the same with older boys, but I am not sure of that because at that time, a boy under 16 age was always considered as a lad, a boy without any reason to be embarrassed if he was seen naked by women adults because he was not already a man and whom sight naked did not embarrass a woman, which was the most important.  
 
It is true also that showers after school PE lessons were mandatory at my time of being a student in the 60's and it was gang showers in open area, supervised by a PE teacher who was not at all a pervert man,  but it would be critisized today and boys would complain and refuse to take showers like that.  
 
So it is very difficult to judge  the facts of the past with the social norms of today.
 
As regard  the "Nakeddad" answer, I have understood  before that everybody in a town where it was applied in schools knew that the boys were naked in swimming lessons, it was obvious as it was obvious that many persons knew how physicals for draft  in the pre-induction center were less respectful of the modesty of the draftees-to-be , it was the same in France, every body knew that young men of over 18 age had to report naked in front of the draft board commission first and after in a pre-induction center  because there was some relations in newspapers or magazines. It was not a rumor but a fact.
 
Only a girl under 18 age who had no brothers, no male cousins, and did not read any newspapers or magazines and did not heard talkings about the military service could have been unaware of that.  
 
What has surprised me  was the fact that it seems to me when reading you that older brothers could have related easily and volontarily their physicals to their family and that it was by this relation and not by reading newspapers or magazines that you knew how physicals were organized and the state of undress of the drafteesduring the examination.
 
why I was surprised by that ? because it seems to me in my experience that generally, the young men fraftees-to-be did not like to relate to their family their physicals with details because it was a situation which was a little embarrassing or humiliating for them, it was more the parents, particularly the father,  who wanted to know and asked indiscreet questions to their sons if they did not refuse to answer.
 
But of course, it was known  by a lot of persons and you are right to say that it was not so a bid deal for a young man who had to give two years of his life to the army, others things were much more important in that case.
 
Nevertheless, for many boys, it was a bad day!
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #29 on: Oct 20th, 2009, 7:20am »
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on Oct 20th, 2009, 1:47am, leo_c wrote:
Hey guys, lighten up. Have no reason to lie to you. These things did occure in the 50s and are more than likely not embelishments. Swam at the Y and on occasions there would be mothers and their daughters present. No, not every time but sometimes. Thought nothing of it.  
 TEASEDSILLY, you said you were not alive in the 60s. That says it all. There was nothing gay about it. You were born to late.  
  Also cant imagine a mother being concerned that her son swam nude. You are certainally applying your own morals to things that happen in the past. Believe it or not, my father allowed me to drink some of his beer when I was under 10 yrs. old. I was allowed to drive the family car before I had a license, I actually made explosives when I was 15 and I swam nude in the lake on family vacations when I was 11 or 12 yrs. old, in front of female cousins no less. I feel sorry for you in a way.  LEO C      

 
Customs and ideas change over the decades. I get some satisfaction from knowing that guys who can't remember that era will one day find people not believing what things were like now.
 
The reality is that the 1960s and 70s reestablished the prudishness that generations of Americans had overcome. Those previous generations understood the need for self-control and for limiting certain behaviors to certain situations. The activism of those times sought to -- and largely succeeded in -- transferring control from individuals to impersonal bureaucracies. It may take a longer time to return to the earlier, more fun and safer system.
The US 50s have been smeared by political pundits because of the already declining racial segregation that they used to destroy the existing rules -- rules that made change and reform possible. In many ways the era was better than the present; in fact, it's mainly the technology today that is better.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #30 on: Oct 20th, 2009, 1:09pm »
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on Oct 20th, 2009, 7:20am, PC wrote:

 
Customs and ideas change over the decades. I get some satisfaction from knowing that guys who can't remember that era will one day find people not believing what things were like now.
 
...In many ways the era was better than the present; in fact, it's mainly the technology today that is better.

 
I hope we don't get too far off topic in this thread, becuase it is an interesting one.  
 
I will say that I read a review of a day spa in which an American women went into this spa in the USA modeled after the European ethic to relax and have a massage and facial treatment. She was aghast that there were NAKED PEOPLE in the sauna and wet areas! She said it totally ruined it for her. I guess she was in her late 20s.
 
Now I realize that she is female and has a different perspective than a male would, but it shows you a typical attitude that is expressed by teenagers and 20-somethings today, both male and female. This is one reason why they simply refuse to believe that boys swam nude before the 1980s. Mommy and daddy and the news and Mr. Politician and Details Magazine and Cosmo and Salon and YouTube viewer comments all tell them that this is deviant behavior. (You like that technology angle?)
 
And of course this fear seems to prevent them from allowing themselves to experience it so they can see that it's not the horrible crime against nature like they have been told. Self-fulfilling prohpecy?
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #31 on: Oct 20th, 2009, 2:34pm »
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on Oct 20th, 2009, 4:20am, easter_man_10 wrote:
It is true that some postmen too young who have not lived at that time have some difficulties to admit that some situations were normal in the past even if today it seems very odd and would be impossible.
 
It was why "teasedsilly" is so skeptical about facts which are related by others who have lived at the time when they occured.

I was addressing a specific story, not all stories. Not about male only nude swimming, but about a CFNM situation, and not about 11-12 year olds, but 17-18 year olds. What I have a problem with is the uncritical attitude some seem to have about stories told on the Internet. CFNM is not a support group theme, it is a fetish, which is a big motivator for people to embellish and outright lie about personal experiences for the sake of a story that fits that theme. So when I see something that seems funny, like a claim that a school had teen boys swimming nude in the company of girls, that evidently the school was fine with it, and that these hormonal boys did not view the situation in a sexual way, I treat it with suspicion. I'm not claiming that none of the stories are true; only that if people think the number of such stories floating around on various CFNM-themed sites and forums is an indication of what was normal practice during the 40s to 60s, they should examine that logic. As a rule I don't study history from Internet forums.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #32 on: Oct 20th, 2009, 5:14pm »
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Sorry "teasedsilly", may be I have written too fast my comment because I share some of your doubts about the presence of women, particularly young girls, sisters and friends of sisters, when the boys were not kids but teenagers in swimming lessons in the nude or swimming competition between schools teams of teenagers.
 
It is difficult for me to believe that the presence of young girls assisting to the swiming of teenagers boys in the nude could be normal situations with teenagers  over than 16 age and not only situations who happened accidentally in some circumstances without any intention of adults.
 
In my opinion, it is not only because it was embarrassing for boys because I am not sure that adult persons were  thinking to the modesty of boys with interest , it is rather because  adults persons could have thought that it was indecent to expose naked boys to the sight of girls. It was the  decency and the modesty of the girls which were important to protect.  
 
Your suspicion about some stories when they go too far in a CFNM situation is understandable and you are obviously right if you think that all stories posted in this forum are not true because this forum is not a historical site.  
 
Nevertheless, to know how people were living in the past, it is sometimes useful to read stories of persons who relate some parts of their life on various forums, not only books of history!    
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #33 on: Oct 20th, 2009, 11:21pm »
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on Oct 20th, 2009, 2:34pm, teasedsilly wrote:

I was addressing a specific story, not all stories. Not about male only nude swimming, but about a CFNM situation, and not about 11-12 year olds, but 17-18 year olds. What I have a problem with is the uncritical attitude some seem to have about stories told on the Internet. CFNM is not a support group theme, it is a fetish, which is a big motivator for people to embellish and outright lie about personal experiences for the sake of a story that fits that theme. So when I see something that seems funny, like a claim that a school had teen boys swimming nude in the company of girls, that evidently the school was fine with it, and that these hormonal boys did not view the situation in a sexual way, I treat it with suspicion. I'm not claiming that none of the stories are true; only that if people think the number of such stories floating around on various CFNM-themed sites and forums is an indication of what was normal practice during the 40s to 60s, they should examine that logic. As a rule I don't study history from Internet forums.

 
I think you are most likely correct in terms of many of the stories floating around the internet.  As I wrote, I never saw a female anywhere around us during the 40 minute period where we were kept stark naked.  There was, as is often the case in locker rooms, one way glass in the coaches offices and the coaches had girls who did their paperwork, so it was possible that girls were in there, but I never heard of such a thing happening.  Therefore, I do share your skepticism.  However, I was never a member of the swim team; I was a football/track guy, but I had buds who were swim teams guys who told me that they would often change suits in front of everybody who came to meets.  That meant girls and mothers. I know that these guys would have done it for shock value, they were like that, but I don't know if they were pulling my chain or not, but they said they did it.  I have met other men my age who swear that women and girls in the pool with them was common practice.  I don't know if I actually believe them, but they volunteered the information after I my story about my high school nude swimming.  Perhaps they were just "seeing my nude swimming and raising it"You with and there were girls present.  I don't know.  That is the trouble with any oral history that is long time remembered.
 
You have to remember that the male body was not considered sexual in those days.  I remember reading a book when I was a kid that had a scene in which a boy was changing in the living room and his sister was changing behind a screen.  He said to his mother, people can see me, and his mother replied, "You're a boy, who would want to look at you?"  That was the attitude of the day.  Nobody would look at a boy.  Looking at the sales of Playboy versus Playgirl, probably not much has changed.  It might also be one reason why finding women into cfnm is so rough.
 
As for being naked being sexual for boys; unless you have been in that kind of sausage fest, you do not know just how unsexual it actually is.  Fear is the biggest impotence producer in the world.  Even if there were girls all over the place, there is no way that anything would happen.  If anyone sported wood in that situation, they would immediately be considered, well the word used would in that day would not have been gay, it would have been far nastier, and that guy sporting the wood could consider his life hell for the rest of high school.  It just would not have happened even had there been hundreds of beautiful women and girls in the pool playing water polo with us.  
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #34 on: Oct 21st, 2009, 4:30am »
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" nakeddad" most of your comments seem to be interesting and right, even if sometimes my experience as a student living in France in the 50's or 60's was a little different of those of american persons, many facts and feelings were similar.  
 
As you said first about the presence of women or girls when boys were swimming naked in swimming pools for school lessons ( it was certainly different at least for the presence of mothers or aunts or even older sisters in the YMCA swimming pools which is more credible), there was some chances where a girl classmate could see  naked boys for example when coming in the coaches offices with one way glass  to do a work but you never heard that such a situation happened in your school, so it was only possible but may be never happened.
 
I am more convinced by such a statement to believe that a relation  was true.
 
Male teachers were certainly conscious of that risk and they certainly did not arouse such situations volontarily. I cannot believe that a coach, male or female, did leave girls come in the ofice and watch at boys as long as they wanted  by the glass. If a girl came in the office, the most likely is that  thre was a coach present and that she  had a logical reason to come and that she stayed a very short time and could have only a short glance by the glass towards the locker room where the boys were changing or undressing for showers, so it was not a big deal. I do not believe that a girl could come and stay alone in the coach office even if some rumors were spread about that.
 
I am less skeptical  for adults women as female PE teachers  or female clerks or even others teachers who could have a sight on boys undressed in the locker room or in swimming pools if it was not organised but happened accidentally.
 
And of course the situation was different  for a female school nurse because she could see the boys undressed in her job, so why not in locker rooms or shower rooms or swimming pools  if her presence was required for any reason such as injuries or some checking.
 
As regards boys of the  swim team of your school, it may be possible that they were changing suits in front of mothers or other women, even girls who came to meets; Why not, it was not the same that being naked in a swimming pool in front of them.  
It was like when a female reporter is coming today in a locker room to ask questions to sports men.  
 
One thing is obvious, we cannot believe to all oral stories even if they are sometimes interesting to add to books some real details about everyday  life in the past.  
 
I share your opinion that male body, particularly teenager male body had nothing of sexual.  
 
your story of the mother telling to the boys who complains because he is undressing in the living room  while his sister is doing it behind a screen "you are a boy, who would want to look at you" is very true, it was the  usual way of thinking  in the past,  it was something that young people cannot understand because they have not lived  in those days.
 
It is also why some stories ( real or made up) where boys or teenagers are naked in front of adults women ( nurse, mothers, aunts, older sisters or older cousins  and so on)  are so funny, in my point of view, it is because they are very much credible in the past and over all when  women are acting normally, not as pervert persons.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #35 on: Oct 21st, 2009, 7:06am »
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 Allow me to point something out. As far as I can remember there were not to many organized activities for males or females in the 50s. I remember little league baseball and the boys scouts and occasional Y swimming. In small towns the swimming was anywhere there was water, pond, streams, lake, especially anywhere there was a dam. This was all attended with out any adult supervision, we did not need it and rejected any attempts to have someone organize it. We swam nude and if people were offended they went elsewhere.  
  We walked or road our bikes. There was no such thing as a mother tearing us away from in front of a TV set and driving us to different organized activities. We even managed to put together our own baseball teams and play teams from other parts of town. Seems as youngsters today cant make a move on their own, have to be chased out of the house to play with others and have to be supervised. We are raising a bunch of pussies.  
  Not making this up, youngsters could actually get a hunting license and shoot REAL bullets. When was the last time you saw a boy with a shotgun, bow, fishing pole or animal traps? I know the subject on this thread has to do with school activites, so I am just jumping in, we never had a pool available. Also every boy had a LIONEL train set in the garage or cellar. Youngster dont know what that is today. Believe me things were different then and a boys swimming nude was quit common and not a sexual thing.  LEO C
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #36 on: Oct 21st, 2009, 7:16am »
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Here we go again.
It must be proof of the effectiveness of media that nobody below a certain age believes in situations that are well within living memory.
A problem is that we are dealing with individual memories of specific situations while history usually deals in generalizations.
If you don't believe it, just pretend it's fiction and enjoy it. You don't know everything and neither do your teachers and the people on TV.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #37 on: Oct 21st, 2009, 9:25am »
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on Oct 21st, 2009, 7:16am, PC wrote:
Here we go again.

 
OK. So enough of the "tastes great/less filling" debate.
 
Any real-life accounts to relate in this thread?
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #38 on: Oct 21st, 2009, 9:59am »
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on Oct 20th, 2009, 11:21pm, Nakeddad wrote:
You have to remember that the male body was not considered sexual in those days.  I remember reading a book when I was a kid that had a scene in which a boy was changing in the living room and his sister was changing behind a screen.  He said to his mother, people can see me, and his mother replied, "You're a boy, who would want to look at you?"  That was the attitude of the day.  Nobody would look at a boy.  Looking at the sales of Playboy versus Playgirl, probably not much has changed.  It might also be one reason why finding women into cfnm is so rough.

The book example is part of what I'm referring to. It was the attitude of the character (who seems like a pretty nasty character), and maybe even the author, but it is a far leap to say that this is evidence of a cultural attitude during the time it was written. There are different practices within any era, people with different beliefs. Yet I'm seeing that stories about these CFNM situations (some probably true, others not) are used as evidence of what was the norm. There's a danger in using anecdotal evidence, because often times it's the exception to the rule.
 
You mention the unpopularity of Playgirl, but only in comparison to Playboy. Men have always been more visually stimulated than women, but that doesn't mean the male form is or was regarded as non-sexual. And what of the lack of male nudity in film during that era when it was supposedly not a big deal? Why was the attitude claimed to be widely held in the general population not also widely reflected in entertainment mediums?
 
Back to the nude swimming, the only thing about this I find interesting is its seeming public nature. There is nothing special about men or women undressing or even being naked in the same company, given the appropriate context (like sports). That's true today, so I see nothing surprising about it being true in earlier time periods. What I do find surprising is the idea that men being naked in mixed company was also normal back in the 50s. If that's true, why did this change? That was a time known for being sexually repressive, and today the society is far more open about nudity. So why in this area did the culture become more modest rather than less? It doesn't make sense to me, and it's a big reason I find myself doubting the claims here about how representative these stories are.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #39 on: Oct 21st, 2009, 10:13am »
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Quote:
Also every boy had a LIONEL train set in the garage or cellar. Youngster dont know what that is today. Believe me things were different then and a boys swimming nude was quit common and not a sexual thing.  LEO C

 
Yeah, agree completely, but with one exception: American Flyer.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #40 on: Oct 21st, 2009, 10:51am »
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Quote:
What I do find surprising is the idea that men being naked in mixed company was also normal back in the 50s. If that's true, why did this change? That was a time known for being sexually repressive, and today the society is far more open about nudity. So why in this area did the culture become more modest rather than less? It doesn't make sense to me, and it's a big reason I find myself doubting the claims here about how representative these stories are.

 
For crissakes, we have been over this ten times. The reasons are that in public opinion: 1) male bodies were not considered sexy, especially by "good" women, and, 2) homosexuality was not recognized (it did not exist). Therefore back then boys, male adolescents and often times adult men could be nude in the presence of others.
 
What really changed was women. They "discovered" (a.k.a. "admitted to themselves") that they found naked men sexy, including, sometimes, male bodies and genitalia. It happened during the late 60s and 70s, and has been increasing ever since. Women's lib and all that, in part.  Note I am not saying human female nature changed. That is sociobiological bedrock. I am saying that public opinion changed which in turn changed what women (and men) henceforth believed to be true.  
 
Then public opinion changed about gays, about 1990 or so. Suddenly they were assumed to be everywhere, and that was all right (and now in all likelihood thought to be more widespread than they really are; liberation does that to people). So boys and young men have to be wary of that too => no more showering in large groups in school locker rooms. (In another generation that will pass when they realize that there are fewer gays than currently supposed.)
 
So that is all there was to it. Public opinion about "Reality" (with a capital "R") changed. About women's sexuality. And about the existence of gays.
 
I am 68 years old and I have lived through all of this. I saw many of those women in the late 1960s and 70s changing, right before my lascivious eyes. (Unless you lived through it, you cannot imagine how grateful men who grew up in the 1950s were to see those antiseptically asexual women and girls turn into penis-loving adventuresses in the 1970s.)  And what is even more extraordinary is that that portion of women who were slow to change back then, have now pretty much caught up with the rest of them. Women in their 50s and 60s sometimes, all of a sudden like cock!
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #41 on: Oct 21st, 2009, 12:26pm »
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I don’t see the problem with this story at all. Society’s views and values change all the time. I grew up in the eighties and nineties and a lot has changed since I went to school. There was no homosexual’s in school; at least they did not admit it. There was deviance to being a homosexual back then, now kids can be openly gay in school. That’s just one of the many ways society’s views have changed in just the last ten years.  I remember the shock of Madonna and how she openly talked about sex. Women are now very open about their sexuality and it’s not strange for a woman to talk about sex.
 
Not even a hundred years ago blacks were thought of as second class citizens!!! How much has society changed in the last sixty years?
 
 
Society changes its views and values all the time. Boy’s swimming naked in the sixties and earlier does not seem to strange to me, considering all of the other ridiculous things society has done in the past.  
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #42 on: Oct 21st, 2009, 5:35pm »
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Quote:
I have lived through all of this. I saw many of those women in the late 1960s and 70s changing, right before my lascivious eyes. (Unless you lived through it, you cannot imagine how grateful men who grew up in the 1950s were to see those antiseptically asexual women and girls turn into penis-loving adventuresses in the 1970s.)  

 
Yes, it was amazing. About 1960, when I was a teenager, women wore white, sculpted, wire reinforced bras that covered their boobs and made them all look conical. About 1970 boobs were bouncing about under thin tops, barely covered and not at all concealed.
Before that women had to wait for you to call them if they liked you and getting in the sack with them was usually a long drawn out, seemingly torturous process.
If you didn't see the change you'd think present conditions were eternal and couldn't appreciate the different customs and situations.
 
Now you have to look at old movies to see people constantly smoking, buildings and homes full of smoke, and ashtrays everywhere, even in doctors' offices. But that's how it was. No, it wasn't good for you, but it's the way it was and there were a bunch of subtle gestures with cigarettes and matches that went with it. I don't miss it, but I note the change.
 
Some things will change in the next couple of decades and those who find this all hard to believe will understand how it can be true.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #43 on: Oct 21st, 2009, 6:00pm »
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 TEASEDSILLY, short post. Men only swam nude at the Y that I remember. Nude public swimming stopped somewhere around 15 yrs. old  When I say public I am talking swimming holes, lakes and dams. Not open swimming pools or beaches.  LEO C
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #44 on: Oct 21st, 2009, 11:50pm »
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[quote author=Allan_C. link=board=stories;num=1226875037;start=0#43 date=10/21/09 at 10:51:41]
 
For crissakes, we have been over this ten times. The reasons are that in public opinion: 1) male bodies were not considered sexy, especially by "good" women, and, 2) homosexuality was not recognized (it did not exist). Therefore back then boys, male adolescents and often times adult men could be nude in the presence of others.
 
What really changed was women. They "discovered" (a.k.a. "admitted to themselves") that they found naked men sexy, including, sometimes, male bodies and genitalia. It happened during the late 60s and 70s, and has been increasing ever since. Women's lib and all that, in part.  Note I am not saying human female nature changed. That is sociobiological bedrock. I am saying that public opinion changed which in turn changed what women (and men) henceforth believed to be true.  
 
 
While I agree with a lot of what you are saying, in terms of gender relations and gender social constructions, only the superficials have changed.  Men in the 1950's through today are not considered sexual beings; they may constantly want sex, but they are the ones chasing, and women are the objects of beauty and desire.  Look at any of the very few films that have total male frontal nudity (and notice how few there actually are), the men are not placed there as objects of desire; they are objects of scorn or pathos.  The character in the Sarah Marshall movie, (I assume some of the women on line saw it, but I know I didn't and don't expect any of the other men did either) has the hero lose his towel in the opening scene.  He is there stark naked fully exposed for a long shot, but not because he is sexual, but because the nudity underlines his powerlessness, weakness and pathos.  Men are not viewed that way any more now than they were when I was a teen.  If men were treated as sex objects, if women considered our bodies to be worthy of desire, would any of us have as much trouble as we do finding women who are into CFNM?  We are all living proof that mens' bodies are still not consider sexual.
 
The nude swimming when I was in high school was a device to let us know that we were powerless, and to put us in our place.  It prepared us for the army, and for life in an industrial society where we would be cogs in the machine.  It was not sexual at all, and had girls looked at us, or had there been girls or women in the locker room or pool, it would have been simply another bit of humiliation to reinforce our lowly status.  
 
 
 
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #45 on: Oct 22nd, 2009, 12:20am »
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on Oct 21st, 2009, 9:59am, teasedsilly wrote:

The book example is part of what I'm referring to. It was the attitude of the character (who seems like a pretty nasty character), and maybe even the author, but it is a far leap to say that this is evidence of a cultural attitude during the time it was written. There are different practices within any era, people with different beliefs. Yet I'm seeing that stories about these CFNM situations (some probably true, others not) are used as evidence of what was the norm. There's a danger in using anecdotal evidence, because often times it's the exception to the rule.
 
You mention the unpopularity of Playgirl, but only in comparison to Playboy. Men have always been more visually stimulated than women, but that doesn't mean the male form is or was regarded as non-sexual. And what of the lack of male nudity in film during that era when it was supposedly not a big deal? Why was the attitude claimed to be widely held in the general population not also widely reflected in entertainment mediums?
 
Back to the nude swimming, the only thing about this I find interesting is its seeming public nature. There is nothing special about men or women undressing or even being naked in the same company, given the appropriate context (like sports). That's true today, so I see nothing surprising about it being true in earlier time periods. What I do find surprising is the idea that men being naked in mixed company was also normal back in the 50s. If that's true, why did this change? That was a time known for being sexually repressive, and today the society is far more open about nudity. So why in this area did the culture become more modest rather than less? It doesn't make sense to me, and it's a big reason I find myself doubting the claims here about how representative these stories are.

 
Just to be clear; the book was a memoir and the author was describing a scene with his mother. The reason I remember it so well is because it rang so totally true to my experience.  This should provide you with your answer to your question about why no male nudity in films then (or now), who would want to look at a nude man?  There is a small market (or non-existent since I think they went out of business) for playgirl, but there are countless mags. for men to look at naked women.  While you are correct, men are more visual than women, and there is an evolutionary push for men to think of women as a resource and to compete with other men for women, and that women choose their mates while men try to be chosen, and that this is done largely on the basis of the resources that a man can provide a women and her children, there is still a cultural piece to it as well.
 
We do not treat men as being sexual in terms of the male body is not seen as being an object of desire. This is cultural.  The naked man in the Classical World, in the Renaissance, and even in our American neo-Classical period was depicted as beautiful, sexual, and noble. If you want to look at men being depicted naked as both sexual and powerful, look at a statue of Apollo.  Perhaps there is a piece of art, photography, a scene in a movie that depicts a naked man that way, but I sure don't know it.  So, to make a long story short, in answer to your question, men could be naked with women present, because he was not a sexual being, she was not going to rape him, and in things like gym class, he was naked as part of a process to make him powerless.
 
As a culture, we are not less modest, schools are simply afraid of being sued by parents.  Naked rituals are being performed all over the place by football teams, fraternities, men's groups, etc., and again, their function is not sexual; it is social dominance.  Let the pledges know their places.  If the pledges are, and I know you won't believe this either, made to sing naked outside the sorority house, it is about humiliation not sex.  It is about reinforcing the hierarchy.  
 
When there are nude bike rides or nude races, any time that there is public nudity, the majority of the nude people have penises.  Women do come and watch, just as I am sure some women saw high school and college boys naked in the pool.  Here it is not about social dominance, it is the same kind of thing that my swim team buds were doing; the guys like to try to shock other folks by being naked.  Maybe gay men look at those events as being sexual, but we don't have throngs of women lining the route to get a look at the roots.  If they did, Hollywood would be making pictures featuring men as sex objects, but women don't think of men that way and they wouldn't go to see those movies.
 
You are absolutely correct about using anecdotal evidence; anecdotes do not make good science; however, when you get enough oral histories, you can start seeing patterns.  Then when you sit down with the primary source materials, like the book I was quoting, or even better yet something like The Man in the Grey Flannel Suit, or Kinsey's male and female sexuality books, you can actually put together what was going on in the culture.  Skepticism is a good thing, but if it just breeds a refusal to consider other arguments, and a refusal to do actual research if you still consider what you are reading bunk, then skepticism is no more scientific than blind faith.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #46 on: Oct 22nd, 2009, 3:33am »
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I agree with a lot of the  comments of "Nakeddad"  but not all .  
 
 When he give some  comments about nude swimming, I think that it is not totally true.
   
 He says :
 
"The nude swimming when I was in high school was a device to let us know that we were powerless, and to put us in our place.  It prepared us for the army, and for life in an industrial society where we would be cogs in the machine.  It was not sexual at all, and had girls looked at us, or had there been girls or women in the locker room or pool, it would have been simply another bit of humiliation to reinforce our lowly status"
 
I believe  that he is too much thinking that it was a  volontarily policy of the  authorities of school or state  to reinforce the lowly status of boys, I am not convinced of that.  
 
Of course, the rule which required that boys swam naked  could have been a way to obtain more obedience of boys in swimming pools  like when school physicals were practiced in the nude in group, the nakedness is obviously a mean to discipline young men and  the army knew that very well but  we must not forget that many postmen have declared that they enjoyed being naked in swimming pool after the first time of  embarrassment because they had a great feeling of freedom. In a certain way, some  assumed that they were advantaged by this rule on the opposite of girls who could never swim naked.
 
So you are wrong if you note only the humiliation, it was true for some boys, not for all.
 
As regards the preparation of the army, I am no more convinced because in that case, the rule would have been applied also in all the western european countries which had a mandatory military service and it was not at least in France;
And it was not because the army had less power than in America, because it had a great power on society, it was not because the army was more concerned by the modesty of the draftees-to-be because the physicals for the draft were always naked and organised without any concern for modesty or privacy, at least less than in the Unoited States since young men had to report in a large group all together naked in front of a dozen members of the draft board commission for more than an hour and most of the members were not doctors or officers but civil men, mayors and so on ..
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #47 on: Oct 22nd, 2009, 8:08am »
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NAKEDDAD, slow down a bit. There was never any control or humiliation with swimming nude. Maby in your case something went wrong and it left a bad impression. When we swam in the creek, pond, lake, it was our own decision, no one forced us.  
 When there were females around, none made any deragatory remarks or degarded us with the fact we were nude. They might have even enjoyed the situation and the boys did not care one way or the other. If they were offended, there were lots more places they could go.  It was not a requirement for us but our choice.  LEO C
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #48 on: Oct 22nd, 2009, 10:12am »
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on Oct 22nd, 2009, 12:20am, Nakeddad wrote:
You are absolutely correct about using anecdotal evidence; anecdotes do not make good science; however, when you get enough oral histories, you can start seeing patterns.  Then when you sit down with the primary source materials, like the book I was quoting, or even better yet something like The Man in the Grey Flannel Suit, or Kinsey's male and female sexuality books, you can actually put together what was going on in the culture.  Skepticism is a good thing, but if it just breeds a refusal to consider other arguments, and a refusal to do actual research if you still consider what you are reading bunk, then skepticism is no more scientific than blind faith.

I think there's a couple issues, but as people seem to be getting anxious to stop debating this I'll leave it at this. The first is that my skepticism is targeted particularly at the claims of the normalcy of CFNM, so there is some talking past each other going on in the thread. And secondly I agree that a refusal to research would be like blind faith, but my focus has been the credibility of Internet stories. If there are better sources on nude men in the company of clothed women in the 50s and 60s they have not been discussed here. My attitude could be described as skeptical, but what this also means is I am not trying to argue about the way things actually were. I'm voicing problems I have with credibility and integrating the claims with common knowledge about the era. No I don't want to read books on the subject, believe me I have plenty on my plate now without more to read on only a casual interest. But if you or anyone else would like to share what you've read on the subject (maybe in another thread) I'd find that fascinating. Short of that I think threads like this are best read as entertaining stories.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #49 on: Oct 22nd, 2009, 6:54pm »
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on Oct 22nd, 2009, 8:08am, leo_c wrote:
NAKEDDAD, slow down a bit. There was never any control or humiliation with swimming nude. Maby in your case something went wrong and it left a bad impression. When we swam in the creek, pond, lake, it was our own decision, no one forced us.  
 When there were females around, none made any deragatory remarks or degarded us with the fact we were nude. They might have even enjoyed the situation and the boys did not care one way or the other. If they were offended, there were lots more places they could go.  It was not a requirement for us but our choice.  LEO C

 
Sorry again about not being clear.  The humiliation was only in regard to those young men who are forced into nudity.  You guys, like the naked bike riders, or the streakers, or any of the hundreds of groups that do nude events are not doing so for the purpose of humiliation.  That now only remains for groups like fraternities, football or rugby teams, etc. where nudity is a part of the process of teaching the boys their place.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #50 on: Oct 22nd, 2009, 7:02pm »
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on Oct 22nd, 2009, 10:12am, teasedsilly wrote:

I think there's a couple issues, but as people seem to be getting anxious to stop debating this I'll leave it at this. The first is that my skepticism is targeted particularly at the claims of the normalcy of CFNM, so there is some talking past each other going on in the thread. And secondly I agree that a refusal to research would be like blind faith, but my focus has been the credibility of Internet stories. If there are better sources on nude men in the company of clothed women in the 50s and 60s they have not been discussed here. My attitude could be described as skeptical, but what this also means is I am not trying to argue about the way things actually were. I'm voicing problems I have with credibility and integrating the claims with common knowledge about the era. No I don't want to read books on the subject, believe me I have plenty on my plate now without more to read on only a casual interest. But if you or anyone else would like to share what you've read on the subject (maybe in another thread) I'd find that fascinating. Short of that I think threads like this are best read as entertaining stories.

 
The focus of my discussions have not been about the normality of cfnm in the 1950's and 1960's, but rather that I don't think you really understand gender relations or the social constructions revolving around sexuality.  You cannot believe that there would be a great deal of cfnm simply because it goes against what you think people would accept in what you think was a sexually repressed period.  But since male nudity was not sexual it would not have challenged societal sexual repression in the first place, and in the second place, it really wasn't a sexually repressed period.  People might not have talked about it, but they did it.  That is why you really should read Kinsey.  Nevertheless, while I am happy to accept as fact that these stories could all be fiction; I am equally happy to accept as fact that they are all true. However, given the culture of the time, I am much more likely to lean toward them being all true.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #51 on: Oct 23rd, 2009, 4:19am »
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"Nakeddad" : I do not want to comment all what you said because I do not  talk enough well in american language to have very serious discussion and express opinions with all necessary subtleties  but I am really interesting by all the recent post about changes in social norms, culture and feelings..
 
I want only react about some comments about nude swimming for boys, the first subject of discussion.
 
In my opinion, some are too much generalising about that subject.
 
We must make distinctions  between situations who were certainly very different.
 
The swimming in the nude  in the YMCA centers was certainly not a big deal for a lot of boys because they knew that this was the rule and even adults men as their dads or uncles were swimming nude also if I have well undestood and many boys were used to swim naked in lakes or streams or ponds and so on ..  
so it was not very exceptional
 
I can also believe that mothers could be present  in the bleachers of the pool or in the locker room, when their sons had a lesson, at least for young boys under 12 age.
It was in a certain way logical because they led the boys in the YMCA center and they stayed after to look at the lesson, why not?
Were they accompanied by their daughters?  may be if the sisters were too young to stay alone or on the reverse more older than the boys, so it was not indecent for them to see younger boys naked .
 
A second case was that of school lessons. In that case, we cannot say "all the boys were embarrassed " or "all the boys enjoyed it", it was certainly very different for the boys in function of their age (it could be more embarrassing after 12 or 13 age in middle and of course high school than in elementary school) and their everyday life at home in family, if they had brothers or not, if their parents were vey prudish or not, if they were used to swim naked in summer each time it was possible and so on.
Some boys were certainly more modest than others, or they were more  sensitive and so on .
 
May be also it was different if their coach or instructor for swimming was cool and not too strict or if he was on the reverse very strict. His behaviour towards the students was very important!
 
The most embarrassing  might be when the male coach or PE teacher was very authoritarian as some had related, for example if the boys were checked naked one by one  after the shower to be sure that they had taken a shower and were clean or  if they had to line naked against the wall of the pool side for a call up which could take a long time and so on.
 
There was also the situation of the meets competition : I have read  many posts of the "forum education" or in a yahoo group about this subject, some postmen have said that they were not naked,  others said  that they were naked and among them a few ones said  that they had female spectators.
I don't know if it was true  but I had no reason to consider that it was a lie.  
It was certainly not the common rule but may be it could  have happened.
 
Anyway, I don't believe to a conspiracy of the adults to humiliate boys in swimming lessons whoever they were swimming
 
I think that it was very different in fraternity initiation, I read some stories not in this discussion where they were rather made up but in other internet sites or neswpapers where they coud be true  and it was actually hazing with a will to humiliate the sophomore  students like it was in some teams sports.  
 
It was the same a few years ago in France and the  forced nakedness was almost always a part of a hazing but it was not only for boys even they were more often concerned by a  forced complete strip,  but it concerned also sometimes girls, particularly in some great schools or universities.  
Nevertheless,  there was often a difference betwen genders,the new boys were forced to strip completely in front of all the older boys and girls while the new girls could stay in panties but nothing else. It was considered as enough humiliating if they were bare nipples ( or topless ?)
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #52 on: Oct 23rd, 2009, 8:07am »
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Amazing.
The boys all responded as individuals but also as members of a group. Their feelings were internal. The purpose wasn't to humiliate them, though some personnel could have wanted to, but to be practical. There probably was some thought of preparing them for the military since conscription was universal for US men between WWII and about 1974.
Men weren't that sexual except regarding women who were plainly available. Hard as it is to believe, homosexuality is comparatively rare and was in the 1950s, so men and boys weren't worried about being nude in front of other males unless they had reason to feel weak or disabled.
I wasn't too concerned about changing in gym class or male roommates and friends seeing me naked on occasion. I wasn't concerned with their being gay because even if one or two were they didn't try anything because they knew I wasn't. People did seem to have more manners and situations weren't as ambiguous.
The 1950s weren't so much repressed as they had different sexual customs. Generally, sex wasn't public or "open" in the sense people gave out what's now called "too much information". You assumed people were heterosexual unless you knew otherwise and that girls/women weren't interested unless they made it clear they were.
No, I'm not going to claim that was a better era since it was also profoundly paranoid and such things as legal racial segregation existed.
Things happened then that were taken for granted that today would have a different meaning.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #53 on: Oct 23rd, 2009, 5:28pm »
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a comment about the post of " PC"  
 you have said :
 
"There probably was some thought of preparing them for the military since conscription was universal for US men between WWII and about 1974."  
 
I am not convinced that it was really one  important reason of the rule for boys to swim naked in the past, since the WWII to the end of the 70's.
 
It was obviously not the main reason  because if it would have been the case, the same rules would have ben applied in other european countries such in  France, my country, or Spain or Italia or Belgium, or others  where there was also a mandatory military service and as I have said before, it was not.  
 
 in these countries, this rule was never applied!
 
I want to speak only for the situation in France because I know it since I am a french citizen  
The military authorities had a very great power in France in the same years, in the 50's or the 60's or even the 70's, so if they had thought that the rule applied in the United States was good to prepare the young men to draft, I am sure that they had obtained that it was applied also in France.
 
It was very simple as at that time all the schools were not co-ed, so it was not difficult to decide that the boys might swim naked in swim  lessons in school  from elementary schools to high schools or in  summer camps.
 
The principals of schools and the PE teachers who were very often retired military non commissioners at that time would have not refused  to apply this rule.  
 
Nearly all the adults, male or female, were not concerned by the modesty of the teenagers at that time.  
The modesty of the boys since elementary school until the end of high schol was not respected when they had to undergo the annual  school physicals, all the students of  a class had to undress  together when they had physicals, the parents did not complained because they were thinking that it was normal, the boys were obedient because they knew that they had to do what the adults were instructing them to do, so it was not an issue to decide that boys must swim in the nude in school, nobody would have complained about that!
 
I have underwent three physicals for military service just after 18 age until 21 age each year and I can swear to you  that the officers and the military doctors were not concerned by the respect of our privacy and our embarrassment, it was the last of their worry.  
 
I had physicals performed  in group  lining up completely naked in corridors and in exam rooms  not only in a pre-induction center  but also two times before in front of a draft board commission which in France  had not only administrative function  but was the first step in the medical process of draft.  
So we were naked in group in front of a dozen of members of the draft board commission  who were mostly civil persons as majors of towns or other reprentatives persons.  
 
All parents knew that their sons had to be naked at these physicals and they were not complaining about that, it was admitted as a rule that boys might comply.  
 
In that case, do you think that the military authorities in France could have not obtained the same rule as in your country if they had thought that it was good to prepare to military service, it is not serious, they had a great influence on the decision-makers, and  the military service had a more important place in my country than in yours because it was more ancient, it existed since the beguinning of the 19th century and had never stopped until its abolition recently, many years after the end of your universal conscription.  
 
You could be right about the interest of the army for all rules which could discipline boys and teenagers  but it was not the main reason!
 
For the other comments of your post, I agree with you.  
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #54 on: Oct 25th, 2009, 12:22am »
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[quote author=easter_man_10 link=board=stories;num=1226875037;start=50#54 date=10/23/09 at 04:19:23]"Nakeddad" : I do not want to comment all what you said because I do not  talk enough well in american language to have very serious discussion and express opinions with all necessary subtleties  but I am really interesting by all the recent post about changes in social norms, culture and feelings..
 
I want only react about some comments about nude swimming for boys, the first subject of discussion.
 
In my opinion, some are too much generalising about that subject.
 
We must make distinctions  between situations who were certainly very different.
 
The swimming in the nude  in the YMCA centers was certainly not a big deal for a lot of boys because they knew that this was the rule and even adults men as their dads or uncles were swimming nude also if I have well undestood and many boys were used to swim naked in lakes or streams or ponds and so on ..  
so it was not very exceptional
 
I can also believe that mothers could be present  in the bleachers of the pool or in the locker room, when their sons had a lesson, at least for young boys under 12 age.
It was in a certain way logical because they led the boys in the YMCA center and they stayed after to look at the lesson, why not?
Were they accompanied by their daughters?  may be if the sisters were too young to stay alone or on the reverse more older than the boys, so it was not indecent for them to see younger boys naked .
 
A second case was that of school lessons. In that case, we cannot say "all the boys were embarrassed " or "all the boys enjoyed it", it was certainly very different for the boys in function of their age (it could be more embarrassing after 12 or 13 age in middle and of course high school than in elementary school) and their everyday life at home in family, if they had brothers or not, if their parents were vey prudish or not, if they were used to swim naked in summer each time it was possible and so on.
Some boys were certainly more modest than others, or they were more  sensitive and so on .
 
May be also it was different if their coach or instructor for swimming was cool and not too strict or if he was on the reverse very strict. His behaviour towards the students was very important!
 
 
The issue is not about the students.  Of course you are right that different boys felt differently about being nude.  What I am talking about is the reason that some authority, some hierarchy, forced the boys/men to be naked.  I think we can all agree that when a prison, concentration camp, prisoner of war facility, (think Abu Grave) strip men down it serves the purpose of making them understand that they are lower in the hierarchy and powerless.  We probably can all agree with that for fraternities and sport club initiations.  The authorities are telling the men where they are in rank; guys with clothing on are higher and have more power than the naked ones.  Naked ones do what they are told to do.  If we can all agree on that, then we need to answer the following question, why would school make boys swim nude?  Other than to let them know their position as powerless in the school hierarchy, or actually powerless in society, because in America, schools are an arm of the state.
I have been thinking about this particular issues since I was walking naked through the locker room some 40 years ago, and I cannot think of any other reason to explain forcing nude swimming.  This is different from other schools that I know of which allowed boys to wear swim suits or not, but if a boy forgot his swim suit, he had to go bare.  That is just a way to keep guys from not taking part in swim class if they don't feel like it.  
Some boys were humiliated by being forced to be naked, others of us loved it, and still do, but it was still a way to impose social controls on men.  
If however, any of you guys can provide another explanation for why boys were forced to swim nude, I would love to hear it.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #55 on: Oct 25th, 2009, 1:43am »
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While I think keeping the power of young kids in check may be part of the reason for requiring they be nude for swimming, I think it is at most a small part. I think the main reasons for the practice were 1) the honest attempt to not clog swimming pool filters with the lint that came off those heavy old wool felt bathing suits (I "inherited" one during WW2), and 2) the fact that most men who have done it prefer how good it feels to swim nude. These two facts, coupled with plain old human inertia, that is, not feeling the need to respond quickly after the filter requirement gave way to better technology (and the belief that women were never sexually stimulated by nude men or boys), meant that boys when I was young were required to swim nude in pools. There may have been traces of "kid control" at work, I suppose, just as there no doubt some pedophile homosexuals in authority who lent a bit of weight to keeping the status quo (or possibly even women who liked the idea for their own gratification). But they were no more important than the fact that bathing suits cost money and the country was still technically in the Depression until just before WW2 -- I got that hand-me-down navy wool felt bathing suit, even though it was two or three sizes too big for me, because it was free.
 
Also, I think the best reasons for doing something are often the ones espoused for it. When I was a kid and required to swim nude in pools, but often (though not always) required to wear a bathing suit at a public, outdoor beach, I questioned why. I was told the main reason was to avoid clogging  pool filters. I was also told that it felt better to swim that way. (I had to admit it did.) And I was also told it was the more manly, even a brave, thing to do. Boys are susceptible to such an argument, and I certainly was. At some point, my friends and I considered boys who were afraid to swim nude "sissies" -- about the worst thing you could be back then.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #56 on: Oct 25th, 2009, 7:33pm »
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I agree with the  post of"Allan C"  
 
I believe that he is right  because it is a reasonable opinion which takes in account all the arguments and situations.
 
About the post of "nakeddad" : I do not disagree with you but  there is a point which deserves a discussion  
I am wondering if it was not more humiliating for a boy who had forgotten his swim suit to be forced to swim naked while his classmates stayed in swim suits than when it was all the class which swam naked because it was the rule, even if I can understand why the instructor asked to the boy to remove his underwear to swim bare as a lesson to prevent him from doing it again.
 
Generally, the state of undress is less embarrassing when it is shared with others persons of our age, it was true for physicals in schools as for physicals for military service because the feeling of equality in nakedness is better to overcome the ordeal.  
In my opinion, it is not to be naked in front of the male PE teacher or the instructor which would have been the most embarrassing because I was a student and he was an adult man, but to be naked in front of my classmates if they were not naked like me.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #57 on: Oct 25th, 2009, 11:37pm »
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on Oct 25th, 2009, 1:43am, Allan_C. wrote:
While I think keeping the power of young kids in check may be part of the reason for requiring they be nude for swimming, I think it is at most a small part. I think the main reasons for the practice were 1) the honest attempt to not clog swimming pool filters with the lint that came off those heavy old wool felt bathing suits (I "inherited" one during WW2), and 2) the fact that most men who have done it prefer how good it feels to swim nude. These two facts, coupled with plain old human inertia, that is, not feeling the need to respond quickly after the filter requirement gave way to better technology (and the belief that women were never sexually stimulated by nude men or boys), meant that boys when I was young were required to swim nude in pools. There may have been traces of "kid control" at work, I suppose, just as there no doubt some pedophile homosexuals in authority who lent a bit of weight to keeping the status quo (or possibly even women who liked the idea for their own gratification). But they were no more important than the fact that bathing suits cost money and the country was still technically in the Depression until just before WW2 -- I got that hand-me-down navy wool felt bathing suit, even though it was two or three sizes too big for me, because it was free.
 
Also, I think the best reasons for doing something are often the ones espoused for it. When I was a kid and required to swim nude in pools, but often (though not always) required to wear a bathing suit at a public, outdoor beach, I questioned why. I was told the main reason was to avoid clogging  pool filters. I was also told that it felt better to swim that way. (I had to admit it did.) And I was also told it was the more manly, even a brave, thing to do. Boys are susceptible to such an argument, and I certainly was. At some point, my friends and I considered boys who were afraid to swim nude "sissies" -- about the worst thing you could be back then.

 
 
We thought of that as well, but one of my buds said, then why don't they make the girls swim nude too.   I don't have an answer for that.
 
I believe the more manly part of it was true too.  It was part of the establishment of equate more manly with being careless about your body, and being willing to sacrifice it either for battle or to do a job you hated just to take care of your family.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #58 on: Oct 26th, 2009, 1:21am »
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...then why don't they make the girls swim nude too.   I don't have an answer for that.

 
Girls did not do much of any sports back then. Partly because it was not considered ladylike and partly for other cultural reasons and even health reasons -- I remember a woman telling me she was told when a girl that if she ran too much her inside "female parts" would come loose and she couldn't have children. And, with some justification, sports was considered more important for boys because it used up their energy and calmed them down, thereby giving better classroom behavior (a fact that is being rediscovered lately as people learn that hyperactive boys are made less so by re-instituting recess in schools).  I must have heard "go out and play and work off all that excess energy" at least once each and every week before I was ten years old. So swimming was not a big thing often for girls. Later on, in the late 50s and 60s, a bit of field hockey, demurely played too, became increasingly common for girls, but often they would still take dance and home ec while boys did sports.  
 
When Title IX came in, things changed a lot of course, but before that boys sports including swimming was far more widespread than girls sports.
 
But the main reason of course was that female modesty was something that had to be protected, in part because men and males of all ages could not be trusted if they spied nude females, but mainly because female modesty was an extremely well-ingrained social norm in American (and virtually all other) societies.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #59 on: Oct 26th, 2009, 4:19am »
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"Allan C" you are totally right  
 
when I was a student in the 50's and the 60's, it was a common idea that boys needed to run and play outside to be more quiet and obedient after in schools or at home and most of the adults don't think that it was necessary for girls.
 
things have changed a lot!
 
And you are right to say that girls were doing  dance  rather than sports if they were free to choose. So boys sports was far more widespread than girls sports.  
 
You are right also about the idea that  the modesty of girls was integrated as a great social norm, it was the same in France and it was the reverse for boys. It has changed now but it was a long time  like that.
 
It was true that at that time, the nudity of boys in some circumstances as school physicals, locker rooms,  gang showers , draft physicals, was considered as manly attitude.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #60 on: Oct 26th, 2009, 6:50pm »
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on Oct 26th, 2009, 1:21am, Allan_C. wrote:

 
Girls did not do much of any sports back then. Partly because it was not considered ladylike and partly for other cultural reasons and even health reasons -- I remember a woman telling me she was told when a girl that if she ran too much her inside "female parts" would come loose and she couldn't have children. And, with some justification, sports was considered more important for boys because it used up their energy and calmed them down, thereby giving better classroom behavior (a fact that is being rediscovered lately as people learn that hyperactive boys are made less so by re-instituting recess in schools).  I must have heard "go out and play and work off all that excess energy" at least once each and every week before I was ten years old. So swimming was not a big thing often for girls. Later on, in the late 50s and 60s, a bit of field hockey, demurely played too, became increasingly common for girls, but often they would still take dance and home ec while boys did sports.  
 
When Title IX came in, things changed a lot of course, but before that boys sports including swimming was far more widespread than girls sports.
 
But the main reason of course was that female modesty was something that had to be protected, in part because men and males of all ages could not be trusted if they spied nude females, but mainly because female modesty was an extremely  
 
well-ingrained social norm in American (and virtually all other) societies.

 
Yes, but that was not the point of the argument.  Girls swam in suits in our pool, and since it was open for families at night and on weekends, so did other boys and men.  Therefore, it was not a question of cleanliness or keeping the filters clean.  Of course there was a different view about sports for boys and girls, but that was not the point.  If the issue was cleanliness and keeping the filters clean, then nobody would have been allowed to wear suits.  Since only boys swimming during gym class had to go nude, I ask once again, what could the purpose of making boys be naked in front of clothed adults (male but perhaps female as some of these writers maintain) other than a reinforcing of hierarchy and domination of the boys?  I really would love an answer, because as I wrote before, none of my friends could come up with one in the early 70's, and I cannot now.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #61 on: Oct 27th, 2009, 4:21am »
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"nakeddad" : you do not read weel the comments of others
 
of course, the reason of cleanliness and keeping the filters clean was certainly not the main and single one for the rule of boys swimming in the nude.
 
But you forget that the issue was not the same for girls and boys , why? because the girls were very seldom swimming in schools and still more in the YMCA centers at that time.
 
And an other reason most important was certainly that a common  idea about  the male gender was that the modesty was not good, as others have said, a boy or a teenager who was too modest was considered by his classmates students, his PE tachers and instructors, and certainly most of adults, may be including his parents, as a "sissy" and it was exactly the opposite  for girls because they might to be always decent.
 
I remember a post that I have read where it was indicated that the mother of a boy embarrassed to be naked ina YMCA center and who told to his mother that he preferred to stop lessons  had explained him that she was sorry but he had no choice and it  was for his best that she refused to give him right because he might  be prepared to schools gang showers and other situations where he would be naked if he did not want to be teased by his classmates as a "sissy" .
 
When you said that the purpose of making boys be naked in front of clothed adults was mainly a reinforcing of hierarchy and domination of the boys, there is obviously some fraction of truth but  you underlines too much in my opinion this reason.  
 
the main reason was the social norm about the idea of the nudity of the male gender and over more the men-to-be that the boys were.  
 
I have experienced as others the fact that in a group physical, boys were more obedient if they were naked  but it was not enough to explain the rule of  boys swimming in the nude.  
 
 
 
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #62 on: Oct 27th, 2009, 7:56am »
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It was a general custom from a few years before when boys swam nude in the country because they wanted to and women's bodies were thought to need protection.
 
The pool filter explanation was a rationalization that people probably actually believed.
 
Consider today's widespread beliefs that women get paid less for working even though it has been illegal to pay them less for 30+ years or that while men's gyms and social clubs must admit women so everyone will be treated as equal women's establishments don't have to admit men.
Notice whether mention of these pisses you off.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #63 on: Oct 27th, 2009, 8:15am »
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on Oct 23rd, 2009, 5:28pm, easter_man_10 wrote:
a comment about the post of " PC"  
 you have said :
 
 
So we were naked in group in front of a dozen of members of the draft board commission  who were mostly civil persons as majors of towns or other reprentatives persons.  
 
 

 
Easter_man:
 
Were the draft board commissions only men or were there women serving on those boards as well?  In other words, did you have to stand naked before town women as well as the town men?
 
Thanks for your contributions to this thread.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #64 on: Oct 27th, 2009, 10:32am »
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NakedDad:
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...I really would love an answer, because as I wrote before, none of my friends could come up with one in the early 70's, and I cannot now.

 
I don't what to tell you beyond what I have already said.  
 
It is pretty simple.  
 
Boys wore no suits because their modesty was not something to be protected, by long-standing custom, and there had been evidence that their bathing suits shed lint which clogged filters.
 
Girls swam far less often in pools and although they wore the same type of suits, their modesty was protected by long-standing custom. So, given that less swimming = less lint, it was tolerated in the few cases where they were permitted to swim in pools.
 
Once this was established, inertia -- the tendency of society to not change unless a good reason called for change -- caused the practice to remain in place and not be changed until long after suits no longer clogged filters.
 
Understand?
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #65 on: Oct 27th, 2009, 10:59am »
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 There seems to be a few that are hung up on boys being forced to be nude and there by humiliated and controlled. Wish I could tell you that was a fact but the truth is that everything was voluntary. And it was not just young boys that swam nude at the Y, all males did no matter what there age.  
 On the one occasion I remember mothers and sisters being present, I did not have to swim nude, was not forced. If I had felt humiliated I could have skipped swimming that afternoon. I chose to swim nude, did not bother anyone including me. As I related in other post, the instructor did wear a suit for this occasion. The instructors never did bother to cover up when one of the Y female employees would occasionally show up at the pool.  LEO C
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #66 on: Oct 27th, 2009, 4:11pm »
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"scooter" : I have already answered to your  question in an other discussion but I answer again with great pleasure
 
"Were the draft board commissions only men or were there women serving on those boards as well?  In other words, did you have to stand naked before town women as well as the town men?"
 
In my time, in 1967and 1968, the members were all men, there was one male military doctor, several officers, and mainly civil persons, and we were supervised by a few non commissioned officers in what we called in France "la gendarmerie" which is a litlle like your national guard in the United States or the "carabinieri"in Italia.  
 
I have heard by some friends and read in newspapers that even at that time there were sometimes some women but it was not frequent.
 
These women were mainly civil persons who had been elected to the function of mayors of a town or were representatives of the state.
 
A few years after, there could have ben also some female military doctors whose number was increasing in the army but not at my time.  
 
A few military doctors were already female but as they were not much numberous, they worked rather in military hospitals.
 
It was the same for the military officers who were nearly only men at my time.  
 
There would have been certainly different if physicals in front of the draft board commision were already mandatory some years after but there was a change in the process of physicals for draft.
 
The young men had only to report directly in front of a pre-induction center where the examination was more thorough but not performed in front of civil persons, only doctors and medics and officers or non comissionned officers were present at the physicals.  
 
I have heard and read that some doctors were female but it was not the most common situation when the physicals were performed in the nude.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #67 on: Oct 27th, 2009, 8:14pm »
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on Oct 27th, 2009, 4:21am, easter_man_10 wrote:
"nakeddad" : you do not read weel the comments of others
 
of course, the reason of cleanliness and keeping the filters clean was certainly not the main and single one for the rule of boys swimming in the nude.
 
But you forget that the issue was not the same for girls and boys , why? because the girls were very seldom swimming in schools and still more in the YMCA centers at that time.
 
I have experienced as others the fact that in a group physical, boys were more obedient if they were naked  but it was not enough to explain the rule of  boys swimming in the nude.  
 
  

 
The point was the girls were in their gym classes taking swimming but with bathing suits on.  The same number of girls as boys, but with swimming suits on.  I was not talking about the Y.  It was school, and the girls were in swim class.  Every boy in every Chicago public high school swam nude, and every girl wore a suit.  That is not a very "seldom" number of girls swimming.  We boys who were also swimming wanted to know why.  The way is simple as far as I am concerned, and you still have not provided another way to think about it.
 
Your last line proves the point.  How do you control boys and man, you strip them down.  Its hierarchy and social control.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #68 on: Oct 27th, 2009, 8:20pm »
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on Oct 27th, 2009, 10:32am, Allan_C. wrote:
NakedDad:
 
 
 
Understand?

 
 
Of course I understand.  I just don't agree, but since you are going to stick to your point of view, and I to mine, no sense in continuing this conversation.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #69 on: Oct 27th, 2009, 9:45pm »
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NakedDad:
 
Quote:
I ask once again, what could the purpose of making boys be naked in front of clothed adults (male but perhaps female as some of these writers maintain) other than a reinforcing of hierarchy and domination of the boys?  I really would love an answer, because as I wrote before, none of my friends could come up with one in the early 70's, and I cannot now.

 
and:
 
Quote:
Of course I understand.  I just don't agree, but since you are going to stick to your point of view, and I to mine, no sense in continuing this conversation.

 
OK, but don't ask for an explanation in the first place if you refuse to accept the obvious.  
 
Understandably perhaps, but you've got the question backwards. The question is not why did boys have to swim nude. The question is why were girls allowed to wear suits. The answer is to protect the modesty of women. (The reasons boys swam nude was historical -- lint, preference, tradition and social inertia from before when girls swam in pools.)
 
It's not some sort of devious plan. It is sociobiology 101. You are right insofar as sociobiology in humans clearly involves male hierarchies and their reinforcement. But that is how society organizes and controls all manner of human organizations, and areas far more widespread and important than swimming.
 
Arguing against sociobiology by men is as silly and beside the point as it is for women (arguing against restrictions on sexual visibility for instance, or in this case protesting that they could not swim nude). Sociobiology is how we are built and it will take generations and biological tinkering on a massive scale to change. We may well eventually modify it, but not for a long time.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #70 on: Oct 28th, 2009, 4:35am »
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"Nakeddad" : as I am not american, I am not the best man to tell you how it was in the past in your country except on points I have read many times in discussions or social norms or feelings which were the same in most of the western european countries
 
But when you said :  
 
"The point was the girls were in their gym classes taking swimming but with bathing suits on.  The same number of girls as boys, but with swimming suits on.   It was school, and the girls were in swim class.  Every boy in every Chicago public high school swam nude, and every girl wore a suit.  That is not a very "seldom" number of girls swimming.  We boys who were also swimming wanted to know why.  The way is simple as far as I am concerned, and you still have not provided another way to think about it.[i][/i]
 
You told of the Chicago high schools but I have read many times in american posts about this subject that the girls had not always lesson swiming classes  in schools, they could choose dance instead of swimming or an other activity as it was sometimes also in france,  while  american boys had no choice, the swimming classes were mandatory;
 
I am also surprised  when I read that your schools were co-ed because in France there was no co-ed schools until the end of the 60's.
 
It is obviously more simple to have different rules for swimming when there was not girls and boys in the same school.
 
Of course, I have understood that in  your co-ed schools, the girls and the boys were separated for swimming lessons but nevertheles, I can understand the embarrassment of the boys who knew obviously that girls wore swim suits while they were instructed to swim naked, not because they were naked in front of the girls in the swimming pool (as I have said before, I don't believe the story about mixed lessons in middle or high schools, I presume that they were made up)  but because they thought that the girls  knew also this difference of treatment and that some of them could tease at the boys students about their nakedness in the swimming pool even if they saw nothing.  
 
May be I am wrong and  boys and  girls students did not mind a lot about that because they were used to that situation.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #71 on: Oct 28th, 2009, 10:19pm »
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on Oct 28th, 2009, 4:35am, easter_man_10 wrote:
"Nakeddad" : as I am not american, I am not the best man to tell you how it was in the past in your country except on points I have read many times in discussions or social norms or feelings which were the same in most of the western european countries not mind a lot about that because they were used to that situation.

 
This might help you understand what was going on in Chicago.  Girls took p.e., not dance or something else and this is what the boys did.
 
http://www.suntimes.com/news/brown/1848023,CST-NWS-brown27.article
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #72 on: Oct 28th, 2009, 10:29pm »
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[quote author=Allan_C. link=board=stories;num=1226875037;start=50#72 date=10/27/09 at 21:45:27]NakedDad:
 
 
and:
 
 
OK, but don't ask for an explanation in the first place if you refuse to accept the obvious.  
 
The reason that it makes no sense to continue this conversation is because you don't want to discuss the question. It is not a question of why didn't they force girls to wear swimsuits; you understand that completely.  You know the gender stereotypes and you explained perfectly well.  We have no argument here, but its not the question.  Why make boys swim nude is the question, and while you understand the gender constructions that said that girls are too precious to make swim naked, you refuse to understand that there are equally powerful social constructions about masculinity that allowed for boys to be forced to swim naked.
I won't repeat what you already know about girls.  Boys on the other hand were considered animalistic, and needed to be controlled.  As another writer put it; it is easiest to do that by stripping them down.  Understand.  Its not a part of a diabolical anything; it is the gender construction that we live with.
 
I won't go through social biology with you other than to say you probably should read Pinker's "The Blank Slate" or his "How the Brain Works" before you start making comments on social biology or more importantly primate behavior.  It might be good for you to take an evolutionary psychology course or two as well before you comment on those issues.  But that is neither here nor there.
 
The point is that we will probably continue to talk across each other with you not answering  my question but pretending to do so, and me trying to get you to answer the question.  Its just not worth the words, and so once again, I am going to say that there is no reason to continue this conversation.
 
Understand?
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #73 on: Oct 29th, 2009, 7:22am »
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Actually the problem is why so many persons don't believe this happened.
Why do they not want to believe it?
 
I doubt there'll be a useable response, possibly because all social changes are framed in specialized rhetoric and people who grew up with the current version believe everyone today is more open and free about issues involving sex and nudity than 50 years ago.
No, the contexts in which things could be mentioned and discussed -- and done -- are different.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #74 on: Oct 29th, 2009, 1:16pm »
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I have read the article of the newspaper which is titled  " Those swim  class memories blast from the past" and all the comments after.
 
it shows that the rule of boys swimming in the nude was applied in a lot of schools, particularly in Chicago public high schools, and in other towns as you knew it already, and that it was gradually fading away between the mid-1970 and early 1980's, so a little later than I believed it.
 
it shows that it was only the rule of being nude to swim in the swimming pool which was considered by some students (who are now adults men) as awkward or weird but also and may be stil more standing poolside waiting for attendance to be taken on cold winter mornings.
 
But it is said also that the explanation given by the school authorities, particularly in schools suburbs,was that they did not want to deal with the expense of providing clean swim suits to every boy and that it cannot be asked to the families. It is credible for  this time  
 
It is said also that nobody has never heard a complaint from students or parents at that time.
 
I find also interesting the fact that if a boy was bringing a note to class to get out of swimming for  the day, he was told to sit on the bleachers wearing only his underwear to be sure that he would not be mischievous, so it is clear that for the adults, the best to obtain that a student stayed quiet was to instruct him to remove his clothes; the more he was undressed, the more he was obedient and they did not have  to worry about him!  
 
By reading the comments, I have found some ones which are interesting, particularly one who said that the more embarrassing was the shower with a long thin hallway where a large group of boys had to gather naked and to wait for the gym teacher, the relation of the shower under control of the gym teacher is rather funny now but it was certainly a bad time and very long at that time!
 
Interesting also to read the post of a woman who said that it happened at least once a year that some poor freshman girl would walk into the boy's swimming pool and be mortified at all the naked boys as were certainly the boys too, so it shows that the girls did not enjoy the view always when they had a chance to watch at the naked boys!
 
But she is wrong when she said that she believed as true what she was told,  which was that  this rule was applied because it was like that when men swam in the army, I have read exactly the reverse because the army wanted that men learned to swim when full dressed with military clothes but the two situations could certainly happened, I presume that it was depending of units of the army and  of the year and where the lessons took place in training exercices or in a common swimming pool, and if they were in the navy or not ... ..
 
In France, we did not swim naked during the military service in the last 60's at least in a swimming pool, it could happened when we had to cross over a river, in that last case, either we were full dressed, either we were naked rather than in underwear, never in swim suits because they were left in the dormitories.
 
An other said that the worst was when attendance was taken by standing naked, wet and freezing, in front of a number along the wall while the gym teacher walked by! I think that it might be the most weird time of the lesson.
 
And also the issue of playing to water polo naked !
 
last, one said thay they had to swim naked in lessons but not when there was swim  meets because boys were always wearing swim suits in that situation! he did not tell usif it was because some women or girls classmates could be spectators.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #75 on: Oct 29th, 2009, 7:22pm »
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One thing I have to say about the story in the Sun Times is that while I wondered why they made us do it, and discussed it with my buds, I didn't mind it.  The cleanliness aspect of it made no sense to us because our school had open swims at night and on the weekends, so there were plenty of other times for lint to get in, and again, the girls swim in suits, so we just figured it was away to keep us in line.
But I was a football player, and went to a camp where we had the option to swim with or without suits, and my buds and I thought it was neat to swim naked and to sleep naked.  As has been mentioned here many times, when it is voluntary it is about enjoyment not about humiliation.  I also had no trouble strutting my stuff through the locker room; I was and am pretty comfortable about my body.  Even at football camp where we guys had the option of having a towel around our waists after showering, my buds and I would simply strut through the locker room naked. We did the same after football practice when when we were given towels after showering and could have taken the towels with us wrapped around our waists. Instead we just left them the way we would have if we were coming back from the swimming pool and proudly walked bare assed through the locker, showing off.  So I was not and am not one of the guys who was upset by the mandatory naked swim classes.  But being a child of the 60's, I didn't like having any authority telling me to do anything, even something that I enjoyed doing.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #76 on: Oct 30th, 2009, 2:34am »
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NakedDad wrote:
 
Quote:
...The point is that we will probably continue to talk across each other with you not answering  my question but pretending to do so, and me trying to get you to answer the question.  Its just not worth the words, and so once again, I am going to say that there is no reason to continue this conversation.

 
OK by me if you want to drop it, but I was replying to what you stated in the beginning – that nude swimming was essentially a ruse intended to keep males in line, ready for the draft and suited to be cogs in the social machine. I disagreed that was the main reason, although I allowed it might have been in the background (as sociobiology would imply it might).  
 
So I did stick to the question, and answered it, but I just disagree with your explanation, given at least twice, that it is all intended for “reinforcing of hierarchy and domination of the boys”. I think it grew naturally out of a combination of 19th century practice, pool filters and personal preferences. And my point in saying the real question is why girls were allowed to wear suits is that the correct historical sequence was, first, boys swimming nude and then, later, girls coming on the scene (boys swimming nude began way before the 70s where you are focused). First an explanation of the origins of why boys were required to swim nude, which I provided but you do not accept, and then the question of, given the boys situation, why girls were allowed to wear suits.
 
Oddly, I don’t disagree with you at all that males are often thought animalistic and in need of control by society and that that is repulsive. It’s just that I don’t think for a minute that was the main reason for requiring them to swim nude, regardless of what you and your buds thought when you were kids. (I could only go as far as accepting that some, overly aggressive, individual male gym teachers may have made it seem so, given their methods.)
 
PS. I’ve read Pinker, extensively, and many other similar authors as well. He’s more of a language-related social scientist, so on this subject I prefer the originator & coiner of “sociobiology”, E. O. Wilson. Or any of several other sociobiologists and popularizers, like Desmond Morris, who tend to the more biological & anthropological. Pinker’s stuff is good, but not as relevant to this discussion unless you are seeing some sort of language construct that you haven't mentioned yet.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #77 on: Oct 30th, 2009, 5:11am »
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" Allan C" :  
 
even if I am not the best postman to give an oipinion about this common practice in many american  schools, I agree totally with your comment.
 
You are right to notice that it had began very soon in the past a long time before girls had swim lessons in schools  as often as boys.
 
The link with the draft was  obviously as I have said before  certainly not the main reason and  neither "the reinforcing of hierarchy and domination of the boys" even if it could happened subsequently
 
Sometimes, as you said, some male PE teachers, instructorss or coaches had agressive methods towards the students and liked to submit them completely to their authority but it was individual attitudes, not the result of a volontarily policy.  
 
It was the same in France in gym lessons and showers even if we were not naked.
 
I have always the same question but of course nobody could answer to me ; why this rule of boys swimming in the nude in school swimming lesson  which was widespread  in your country was not applied in France?
 
My country was not more prudish than your's, french  boys had no more right then american ones,  the idea that a double standard between boys and girls was fair and logical about decency, privacy and modesty was so widespread as in your coountry, the male and female adults were thinking the same  about the fact that the modesty of boys was not an issue, so I do not understand why it was different?  
 
May be french adults did not know that you were applying this rule in your schools  but I doubt of that?
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #78 on: Nov 1st, 2009, 6:43pm »
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on Oct 30th, 2009, 2:34am, Allan_C. wrote:
NakedDad wrote:
 
 
OK by me if you want to drop it, but I was replying to what you stated in the beginning – that nude swimming was essentially a ruse intended to keep males in line, ready for the draft and suited to be cogs in the social machine. I disagreed that was the main reason, although I allowed it might have been in the background (as sociobiology would imply it might).  
 
So I did stick to the question, and answered it, but I just disagree with your explanation, given at least twice, that it is all intended for “reinforcing of hierarchy and domination of the boys”. I think it grew naturally out of a combination of 19th century practice, pool filters and personal preferences. And my point in saying the real question is why girls were allowed to wear suits is that the correct historical sequence was, first, boys swimming nude and then, later, girls coming on the scene (boys swimming nude began way before the 70s where you are focused). First an explanation of the origins of why boys were required to swim nude, which I provided but you do not accept, and then the question of, given the boys situation, why girls were allowed to wear suits.
 
Oddly, I don’t disagree with you at all that males are often thought animalistic and in need of control by society and that that is repulsive. It’s just that I don’t think for a minute that was the main reason for requiring them to swim nude, regardless of what you and your buds thought when you were kids. (I could only go as far as accepting that some, overly aggressive, individual male gym teachers may have made it seem so, given their methods.)
 
PS. I’ve read Pinker, extensively, and many other similar authors as well. He’s more of a language-related social scientist, so on this subject I prefer the originator & coiner of “sociobiology”, E. O. Wilson. Or any of several other sociobiologists and popularizers, like Desmond Morris, who tend to the more biological & anthropological. Pinker’s stuff is good, but not as relevant to this discussion unless you are seeing some sort of language construct that you haven't mentioned yet.

 
 
Yes Pinker is a linguist, but that is not what the Blank Slate or How the Mind Works are about.  The Blank Slate is an introduction for the educated reader, but not professional scientist, the latest scientific thinking about human behavior.  He explains why people like Desmond Morris, Ruth Benedict, and Margaret Meade were incorrect in their explanation as to how human being operate.  While culture is an important moderating force in human behavior, it is not dominant; most of our actions are based instincts that evolve hundreds of thousands and millions of years ago, and the conscious thought is not much more than rationalizing the actions that we are already driven to do.  There are times where people really do plan ahead, but for the most part, we act in the manner of all other social primates. (I am oversimplifying like crazy, and you really should reread the book, since it did not stick the first time.) E. O. Wilson, in his book Consilience takes on the Social Science Model, the anthropological view you hold even more so.
Now, what does this have to do with the argument you ask?  It has to do with the argument that I am making that what we see here is typical, hierarchial, male-male struggle for dominance.  So ruse, no of course not, that would be conscious.  The behavior is typical, normal primate dominance behavior.
Now once again, it makes no sense for us to have this discussion, because you are going to explain it from your bias (its about history and culture), and I will continue to explain it from my bias (species typical behaviors underlie all actions, and that while the history you refer to moderate and rationalize the behaviors, they only rationalize what people would do).  We will continue talking around each other rather than to each other, as if you were talking about bad air and bad humors causing disease, and I was talking about microbes.  
These conversations just don't work
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #79 on: Nov 2nd, 2009, 2:14am »
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Nice piece, NakedDad, but I just don't buy the applicability of instinct here to the degree you do. I too see instinctive social constructs for behavior at work in many places in life and gender behaviors, and as I acknowledged they have some, but limited, relevance here. But frankly I find your view that boys swimming nude in Chicago was something mandated by the needs of male hierarchical maintenance, if that is still what you are saying, bizarre, extremely distorted and even sophomoric. And that is not to say that some practitioners like gym teachers did not feel the need for, and acted on, such maintenance. Think that if you must, but for me the balanced interpretation, sans dogma, is that, if any instinctual male behavior was involved in the overall policy of this situation it was the preservation of masculine privilege & primacy in athletics -- in that it is more enjoyable to swim nude than wearing a bathing suit, simply because it feels better and you swim more easily; and that males are not as constrained by social convention as females. That was where it all started, after which various requirements for pool maintenance and social tradition/inertia took over. You may have had too many grouchy and small-minded, ex-Marine bullies as gym teachers, but they don't set policy like whoever it was who decided the city really did not have enough money to spend on suits for boys even though the greater modesty requirements of girls required them to provide them suits.
 
Furthermore your view founders on the fact that eventually the policy on nude swimming did in fact change. It changed for exactly the reason it began -- the cultural context of the day. Do you now believe that changing the swimming attire for boys in Chicago managed somehow to invalidate instinctive sociobiological behavior? You can read into human events all sorts of motivations. I have had a partly anthropological view since I studied under DeVore  and a partly sociobiological view when I took courses under Wilson. I say “partly” because what one chooses to see in a given situation depends on the eye of the beholder and how he or she views their current context. Comparing it to microbes vs. bad air is amusing but silly. All of it is in there and we can pick out what suits us. You said: “..what we see here is typical, hierarchial, male-male struggle for dominance.”  I conclude that finding your gym teachers fascists suited you in the 70s and you haven’t changed yet to accept the broader context. That is your choice. They apparently used male dominance techniques on you and your friends to make you behave as they saw fit. But beating them over the head with Pinker and Wilson won’t make them into something they are not; it will not make them responsible for cultural change, either for the creation of the nude swimming mandate or for its repeal.  Genes shape the mind and ultimately have more effect in creating culture than experience. But that is not why swimming in Chicago was mandated nude for boys, nor why it was abandoned later. It simply wasn’t that important in the overall scheme of things. Tradition, filters, and the cost of bathing suits were. Furthermore, they did not have to train you for the draft. All they had to do was draft you. You can analyze a male nude swimming mandate if you like as a typical male hierarchical behavior, but that is not what caused it, prolonged it, or ended it.
 
And Consilience says a lot more than the piece you mention. I’ve read it twice and find in no way does it contradict what I am saying.
 
And PS – Desmond Morris is a zoologist, not an anthropologist. He tends to the genetic explanations. Have you ever actually read him?
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #80 on: Nov 4th, 2009, 6:48pm »
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I have read discussions about this subject and why boys had to swim naked at that time. Someone - I think nakeddad made point. If the reason was the filter system - you've all read about that - then girls would have had to be naked too. I would forget the filter at all. Among all reasons, there is such a summary that makes sense.
It's still a norm around the world - and it was once in UK/USA too - that girls have no reason to be shy due to nudity in front of other girls and the same in the case of men/boys. It is still required in swimming pools/saunas in Europe and elsewhere that you shower yourself with soap/gel naked without swimming suit before entering pool or sauna and it is required to be naked in sauna and most saunas today are mixed.
One could ask questions - why should boys wear swimming suit in a pool where only boys/men were present? What is the reason for that?
So, the point was that boys undressed in locker rooms, went naked to showers, took a shower naked in front of one another and while probably being supervised - and - having just seen one another - they should pretend they are actually shy and wear swimming suit afterwards? And why? You could then discuss what they would do with the wet swimming suits if the gym class was not their last class on that day but... I see that some guys probably didn’t like it but if you get busy and you have no time to think of being naked you get used to it very soon and you don’t care. And there are photos that prove the nude swimming was going on and there are photos that prove that women/girls were sometimes present - usually not during school swim class - at swim meets/competitions.  
And why weren’t girls nude? I think women/girls have been seen as vulnerable and potential victims of men’s lust and lewd comments, they are also more shy than men.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #81 on: Nov 5th, 2009, 10:52pm »
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Ok, so we will go ring around the rosey one more time with this, and this time I will simply say what I have been saying all along.  We cannot discuss this because we come from two different biases that do not allow for acceptance of one another's ideas.
 
First of all, when The Naked Ape was researched and written, Morris had some wonderful insights and his suggestions were very interesting.  When I read him in high school and college I thought he got a lot right and he deeply impressed my thinking.  However, that was over 40 years ago, and he had two huge problems: one he didn't have enough data and two he was working from the wrong set of hypotheses.  These are the two problems from which you also suffer.  
 
The first is the fact that in the 1960's, very little was understood about the workings of the brain, Watson and Crick had just cracked the double helix so almost nothing was known about dna or the ways in which genes actually work, and the fossil record was still just coming into view (even Lucy had not been discovered yet).  For instance, Morris was still under the impression that humans and the Chimpanzees branched from a common ancestor about 14 million years ago instead of the 6-7 million years ago that both the fossil record and genetic mapping indicate today.  This means that he did not understand how close we actually are to the chimps, and how much of our behavior is the same as theirs.  Secondly, he was working under the same cultural determinist view that you are working under; it comes from Franz Boaz, Ruth Benedict, Margaret Meade, et. al., and confuses (like you do) proximate changes in human behavior (the minor cultural shift that you are seeing) with ultimate cause.  
 
Like all other social primates, males compete with males for social status and dominance, and females are attracted to males who have higher social status.  Boys may not be swimming naked now, minor change, but boys receive harsher punishments than girls in school, boys are more likely to be expelled from schools than girls, boys are more likely to drop out of school than girls, boys are less likely to receive assistance from teachers than girls, etc. While you are going to look at this as if there is no relationship or you are going to once again think that I am creating some kind of dubious conscience desire of some powerful force that is doing it to boys, much like a feminist would look at your description of the way girls were treated in the 1950's and say that the Patriarchy was keeping girls weak and protected so that they could be kept in line, but that is not the point.  
The ultimate cause of all of these behaviors is male/male competition.  It is about establishing hierarchies and keeping the boys in line.  It is species typical behavior, and it is simply not in the conscious brain.  We behave the way we do because we are social primates, and that is the way we evolved (I am assuming that you do believe in evolution and do not think that humans came into existence 7 thousand years ago.)  
 
Now you are going to come back with another dated cultural deterministic argument, and I will come back with another argument based on evolutionary psychology, and we will go ring around the rosey yet again.  We talk at cross purposes, so I am not going to continue this (by the way, it is also a male/male competition for dominance - it doesn't matter where we are, we men compete even if it is for absolutely nothing) conversation because neither one of us will grow from it, nor will we get greater status so we can get females.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #82 on: Nov 6th, 2009, 3:50am »
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Well, you have a too much serious discussion  even if it is interesting because it needs nearly a high universitary level of study  
 
Even in french language (since as you know I live in France and I am a french person) , I am not sure  that I would be able to discuss with you  
 
But I cannot agre with some more simple assertions as those  above
 
I quote  "Nakeddad":
 
"Like all other social primates, males compete with males for social status and dominance, and females are attracted to males who have higher social status".  
 
Ok that's right!
 
 but after the followings ideas are not right  
 
 "Boys may not be swimming naked now, minor change, but boys receive harsher punishments than girls in school"  
 
Where have you learned or read or seen  that today boys receive harsher punishments than girls ?, it  was certainly true in the past, precisely at the time where boys had to swim naked in schools but it is over since many years.
 
I am not a naive person but I cannot believe that it is different in United States and in France and all the western european countries.
 
The double standard in corporal punishments is fortunately for boys now over.
 
And as you know, if boys were disadvantaged for harsh punishments, they were advantaged on other points, they had more freedom than girls when they were teenagers to go out of their home, they could come back later and so on ..  
 
Now it is quite the same  in family but don't forget that in the past, the boys were not penalized on all points of everydaylife.
 
" boys are more likely to be expelled from schools than girls, boys are more likely to drop out of school than girls, boys are less likely to receive assistance from teachers than girls, etc." [i]  
 
It is not right in France, why are you thinking that boys are more often expelled from schools?
 
or may be as a temporary punishment for one day or a week because they deserve a lessson when they are too much skipping schools or too much kicking up a rumpus or being insolent with teachers, it can be necessary to take such a decision to make understand to a boy and his family that he must change of behaviour in his school
 
As you know, it is more frequent for a boy to have bad behaviours in schools even it is now a little changing because girls are acting more and more like boys in schools.
 
why boys will drop out from schools more often  than girls ?  
I don't think that it is true, at least it is less true than in the past.  
 
and if boys are dropping out from schools to find a job earlier than others who finished their studies, girls do the same today in France and I doubt that it is different in your country.
 
last comment: " boys are less likely to receive assistance from teachers" : I doubt that it is true, at least it is not in France.
 
and I cannot see why teachers in your country would refuse assistance to boys if needed ?
 
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #83 on: Nov 6th, 2009, 6:15am »
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I agree that the long explanations for nude swimming are needless. Boys swam nude when the country was largely rural and the custom carried over. In a new context it acquired different meanings and was gradually ended.
Solved in two sentences!
 
Yes, US boys drop out more than girls, receive harsher punisments, and so on because teachers and school boards are mainly man-hating feminists.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #84 on: Nov 6th, 2009, 7:11am »
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Aside from the sprinkling of snide and often puerile comments about me or my position, I have almost no disagreements with what you say up to when you allege once again “The ultimate cause of all of these behaviors is male/male competition.  It is about establishing hierarchies and keeping the boys in line.”  That is nonsense. You can see male hierarchical behavior in many or most things males do, but that does  not necessarily make it causal of the overall behavior or situation.  And throwing around the names of psychologists, biologists, zoologists and various thinkers and commentators of the last forty or fifty years, or claiming your viewpoint is more up-to-date than mine, does no good either.  
 
If you want to end this discussion, fine by me. I am quite willing to stand on what I said earlier:
 
Genes shape the mind and ultimately have more effect in creating culture than experience. But that is not why swimming in Chicago was mandated nude for boys, nor why it was abandoned later. It simply wasn’t that important in the overall scheme of things. Tradition, filters, and the cost of bathing suits were. Furthermore, they did not have to train you for the draft. All they had to do was draft you. You can analyze a male nude swimming mandate if you like as a typical male hierarchical behavior, but that is not what caused it, prolonged it, or ended it.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #85 on: Nov 6th, 2009, 9:34am »
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Allan_C said... "Genes shape the mind and ultimately have more effect in creating culture than experience."
 
Current neurological research would suggest that is wrong. There is a growing trend toward using neurological science to understand how the brain learns and to apply it in schools - "neuro-education" they call it. Scientists now say that boys and girls brains are pretty much the same when it comes to how they learn. Gender differences in subjects like math or language are more the result of social conditioning. They are also saying that in healthy babies, you are not born smart or stupid. How smart you become has more to do with the nature of your learning environment since you were born. This means that social culture is more the result of the experiences than genetics. Then the older generation's culture is imprinted on the next generation (boys nude swimming) until acted upon by a larger social influence (sexual harassment laws).
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #86 on: Nov 6th, 2009, 3:24pm »
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TimTam, the nature vs. nurture controversy predated our arrival on this earth and will surely outlast us as well.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #87 on: Nov 6th, 2009, 4:50pm »
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Ho hum.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #88 on: Nov 9th, 2009, 10:11am »
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"Nakeddad and PC ":  
 
I am always skeptical about some statements :
 
do you really think that today, not in the past,  
boys are more often expelled from schools or drop out from schools more than girls or receive harsher punishment ( what do you mean by harsher since there is no more corporal punishments?) or receive less assistance from teachers  
 
I cannot undestand that! nor believe it.
 
In France , in my opinion and experience, it is nearly the same, it is true that some boys drop out of school to find very early a job but it is true also for girls.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #89 on: Nov 9th, 2009, 1:03pm »
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Easter_man_10...  
 
I have read or heard of numerous reports about how girls do better in school than boys, especially in the U.S. Studies have shown that boys are more verbal and physically active in the learning process. Unfortunately, that is exactly what you get into trouble for in the schools. I watched a talk show where then First Lady Laura Bush said that she was on some task force to deal with problems like this.  
 
I also remember watching a TV program that showed boys in class being much more bored than the girls. Other articles I have read show that girls are now becoming the majority in university enrollment. Another report said that female graduates of university are now earning slightly more in average starting pay on their first job after graduation. The gap is even greater for young black boys in the States where they have special needs, but schools are underfunded, and there is less opportunity to gain experience through employment. This is all contrary to the way it was long ago when men actually controlled something in this country. Now America is a female dominated, politically correct society. I'm not sure if this related to the issue of how boys began swimming nude years ago. But I wanted to state some fact that I have come across.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #90 on: Nov 9th, 2009, 5:06pm »
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Timtam:
What you have heard is true, females now do better in school than boys.  The majority of college undergraduates are women.  However, it is not true that this results from a female dominated, politically correct country.  It results from the fact that girls work harder in school than boys, perhaps because they find it easier to sit quietly than boys.  Women have always behaved better than men.   This has no relationship with nude swimming!
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #91 on: Nov 10th, 2009, 4:16am »
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You have not really answered to me about some points of your previous comments which seem wrong to me.
 
Some of your last statements are nevertheless right also in France :
 
it is true that girls have better results than boys in schools until the end of high school, why ?, because they work too much as you have said, some  french studies have shown that,  but there are no consequences as those that you have underlined, the teachers are giving the same assistance after school to boys than to girls and  the boys are not submitted to harsh punishment than girls since there is no more corporal punishment in any schools and so on ...
 
When boys drop out from school,  most of the time, it is to work earlier and to help their families, but it is the same for girls, some of them drop from school very early, it is a social issue.
 
of course, you have in your country a real issue with black boys who work very less than black  girls in your schools,  and are also less quiet, we have also an issue with some boys when their parents are coming from North Africa or Africa, even when the boys are born in France but it is not so important as in your country.
 
As regards university, you are right about the good results of girls who are more and more present in all universities and great schools, but always less numberous than boys in scientific and technological universities.
 
On the reverse of what you said, the girls are generally a little less paid than the young men after graduation for their first job when they are hired by private companies, while of course it is the same if they become civil servants and you know that we have in France a great number of civil servants.
 
A last comment about your statement that America is now a female dominated  politically correct society, I don't think that  but you know that certainly more than me since you are american and not me,  
nevertheless it seems to me strange  because the american citizens have elected to presidence of the United States a black man who is in my opinion very clever and an excellent speaker, I would like to have such a président  in France!
 
so, your society is not really dominated by women!
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #92 on: Nov 10th, 2009, 6:46am »
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do you really think that today, not in the past,  
boys are more often expelled from schools or drop out from schools more than girls or receive harsher punishment ( what do you mean by harsher since there is no more corporal punishments?) or receive less assistance from teachers  
 
I cannot undestand that! nor believe it.

 
Male students have usually been punished more severely for violent and aggressive behavior, female for sexual behavior.
The latter has changed, as shown in nurseries for teenaged mothers in school, but not the former. Boys are now drugged to calm them (resulting ultimately in more violence) and discouraged from attending school because they aren't girls.
 
 
Quote:
Women have always behaved better than men.

 
They have always appeared more cooperative and even passive, but their ethical/moral decisions have been exactly the same as men's based on their own temperament.
They simply aren't punished any longer for crimes or "moral turpitude" unless they attack a judge or lawyer.
 
Quote:
I would like to have such a président  in France!

 
He would be ideal for France. Why don't you invite him there?
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #93 on: Nov 11th, 2009, 5:07pm »
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"PC" : I don't understand what you said if it concerns today and not the past  
 
"Male students have usually been punished more severely for violent and aggressive behavior, female for sexual behavior.
The latter has changed, as shown in nurseries for teenaged mothers in school, but not the former. Boys are now drugged to calm them (resulting ultimately in more violence) and discouraged from attending school because they aren't girls".  
 
how and when are the male students more punished than girls ? for the same behaviour of course because it is logical that they are more punished if they are more violent?
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #94 on: Nov 11th, 2009, 6:56pm »
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Boys were  more likely in the past to be punished severely than girls.
 
Today they are simply discouraged, drugged (because they are more active than girls), and subject to whatever passes for "sensitivity training" now.
 
The punishment tended to make them tough, psychologizing makes them confused and angry.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #95 on: Nov 12th, 2009, 3:39am »
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"PC" Shockedk, for today, do you have a solution for helping boys to have better results and be more comfortable in schools ?
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #96 on: Nov 12th, 2009, 6:19am »
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Hire male teachers and female teachers who like boys as well as girls and who want to teach rather than impart an ideology.
 
Don't prescribe drugs at the mere suggestion by teachers -- who usually aren't PhD psychologists or psychiatrists -- that some kid is dangerous because he gets restless after sitting at a desk for 5 hours.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #97 on: Nov 12th, 2009, 10:39am »
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Quote:
Hire male teachers and female teachers who like boys as well as girls and who want to teach rather than impart an ideology.
 
Don't prescribe drugs at the mere suggestion by teachers -- who usually aren't PhD psychologists or psychiatrists -- that some kid is dangerous because he gets restless after sitting at a desk for 5 hours.
 

 
And even simpler...reintroduce at least two recesses sessions per day for play, especially athletic play.
 
Most radical of all -- acknowledge and act accordingly that boys and girls are different and have different needs.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #98 on: Nov 12th, 2009, 2:12pm »
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"Alan C " : you are right about the necessity to take more in account  some differences between boys and girls, I think that it is stupid to want that they were treated equally in each situation.
 
it is nearly the same in France, a lot of persons are complaining if TV drama  don't show in the same way with the same feelings and behaviours girls and boys or if the toys for girls are different of those for boys in storehouses and it is obviously stupid.
 
There is two genders, it is not for having no differences between them.
 
I am not asking the return in all situations of the double standard  like in the past but boys are not girls , as you said, their needs are not the same.
 
  As you said, a good decision would be to reintroduce more recesses sessions per day for play in schools from elementary schools to the end of high schools and also to have again mandatory PE lessons and more sports.  
 
"PC" : I doubt that today the teachers do not like boys as well as girls, I have never heard about that in France, it seems to me  that teachers are  rather like parents, they like the both genders in schools, it is only that some teachers are more feeling at ease with teaching to girls, they know best how to act to learn them, and the opposite is true for others.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #99 on: Nov 12th, 2009, 3:39pm »
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I don't know what they do in France, but you have to be a feminist to get hired in many places here. The Teachers' Union locks anyone out who doesn't follow doctrine.
Feminist doctrine is hatred of men.
 
Watch what people do, don't bother with what they say.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #100 on: Nov 12th, 2009, 4:05pm »
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Yesterday there was a site YMCAnaked on yahoo.  I joined and they had many photos of the nude swimming.  Later that day, they did not seem to be there.  Anyone know were else the pictures can be found?  Thanks, Weave
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #101 on: Nov 13th, 2009, 3:40am »
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"PC" : no, it is not the same in France, all teachers are hired after an entrance  exam because they are paid by the state in all the states schools, except in some private schools which are not numberous in France.
 
In my opinion and experience, you don't have to be a feminist to be hired  for teaching in France.
the power of  the feminist movment is not important in France.
 
What is true is that  recent surveys show the difficulties of a lot of boys in schools for a lot of reasons, which are particularly that they do not work so harder than girls, and are more disruptive and less obedient.  
 
As a consequence, some men in charge of education are telling that it could be a solution to separate again boys and girls in schools in some matters or for lessons after schools.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #102 on: Nov 13th, 2009, 6:33am »
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Some notion of separate schools for boys and girls has been mentioned here, usually by feminists because in higher levels male students do better.
Higher education here was sex integrated on feminists' demand in the early 1900s, though there were already a number of such schools, because they claimed women were being cheated of a better education since men entered different professions. Now they want to go back to the old system because men still do better in many fields and enter different professions.
Interestingly, most of them don't even realize that was the system feminists resisted 100 years ago.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #103 on: Nov 13th, 2009, 1:01pm »
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Some notion of separate schools for boys and girls has been mentioned here, usually be feminists because in higher levels male students do better.
Higher education here was sex integrated on feminists' demand in the early 1900s, though there were already a number of such schools, because they claimed women were being cheated of a better education since men entered different professions. Now they want to go back to the old system because men still do better in many fields and enter different professions.
Interestingly, most of them don't even realize that was the system feminists resisted 100 years ago.

 
One of the things I have learned in my 68 years is that women complain a lot. Another thing I have learned is that men instinctively try to solve the "problems" that women complain about. But it took me well into my 50s to fully realize that wisdom for a man is knowing when to respond to what a woman complains about and when to not.
 
Lately I have noticed that more and more women in my age group, who formerly thought separate educational facilities for boys and girls was a terrible injustice (to girls), now think separate schools are a good idea after all. As one woman, a now retired teacher put it --  
 
"If you leave boys to themselves, they will swing from tree branches. If you leave girls to themselves, they will sort buttons by color into neat little piles. Now how can you construct a good learning environment for both children when they are that different?"
 
She has a pretty good point, I think.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #104 on: Nov 13th, 2009, 6:00pm »
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It is possible that girls and boys may learn better if segregated.  I don't really know.  What I do know is that gender segregation is very artificial.  In almost any society except the military, and less there in modern times, you have to learn to get along with the opposite sex.  Education should seek to prepare students for the real world and a world without gender is extremely artificial.  
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #105 on: Nov 13th, 2009, 8:16pm »
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on Nov 13th, 2009, 1:01pm, Allan_C. wrote:

 
One of the things I have learned in my 68 years is that women complain a lot. Another thing I have learned is that men instinctively try to solve the "problems" that women complain about. But it took me well into my 50s to fully realize that wisdom for a man is knowing when to respond to what a woman complains about and when to not.
 
Lately I have noticed that more and more women in my age group, who formerly thought separate educational facilities for boys and girls was a terrible injustice (to girls), now think separate schools are a good idea after all. As one woman, a now retired teacher put it --  
 
"If you leave boys to themselves, they will swing from tree branches. If you leave girls to themselves, they will sort buttons by color into neat little piles. Now how can you construct a good learning environment for both children when they are that different?"
 
She has a pretty good point, I think.

 
 
She does indeed. I'm in the same age group and it does seem odd that women have to get old before they see that feminists are full of cowshit.
But as women reach a certain age many of them are not only anti-sex but want to prevent younger women from engaging in it.
 
Yes, women constantly complain: rich women, poor women, educated women, uneducated women, white, black, yellow, red, brown women complain. It would save a lot of trouble if they realized men are irritated by it,  often driven away or made indifferent and distant by it.
One thing that helps is to determine somewhat the subject they complain about and keep them busy at the same time. By pretending to be incapable of picking up after yourself or cleaning things you can cause them to take up those minor tasks (that you can do perfectly well), which keeps them busy and gives them something trivial to complain about. It also makes them believe they are absolutely necessary to your well-being, so they're happy.
 
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #106 on: Nov 14th, 2009, 12:07pm »
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By pretending to be incapable of picking up after yourself or cleaning things you can cause them to take up those minor tasks (that you can do perfectly well), which keeps them busy and gives them something trivial to complain about. It also makes them believe they are absolutely necessary to your well-being, so they're happy.

 
Fortunately for me I don't have to pretend on those two points...
 
And what I find interesting is that I can pay a local woman only $85 every two weeks to completely clean my house, wash and iron my clothes, and even clean out my refrigerator. And she's cute and does it with a smile!
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #107 on: Jun 19th, 2010, 7:08pm »
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 Thought I would bump this up. Go to the site on the first post. Males are getting upset if they are forced to go TOPLESS! Upset if they have to do shirts and skins in team play. What is this world coming to? Bunch of pussies!  LEO C
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #108 on: Jun 20th, 2010, 12:45pm »
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on Nov 13th, 2009, 1:01pm, Allan_C. wrote:
"If you leave boys to themselves, they will swing from tree branches. If you leave girls to themselves, they will sort buttons by color into neat little piles. Now how can you construct a good learning environment for both children when they are that different?"

That may be true, but I would have missed going to a mixed school. Part of my education was provided by the boys, their behaviour, their funny habits and, yes, their bodies. I find it much easier to communicate and relate to men as a result, and it's where I started to learn how to tease! Hehe!  
 
I don't think I would have liked an all girl school, teenage girls can be incredibly bitchy and form cliques. From comments about what you're wearing to how you've had your hair done, flaws with your skin etc. The joy with boys is they don't notice! Grin  Until they reach a certain age when their eyes fix on your chest  Roll Eyes
 
I laughed about the swinging from trees comment, one of the things which amused me most about my b/f when I first met him was his love of climbing things! Grin  
 
School is an excellent opportunity to learn about the opposite sex, which is just as important as spelling and sums!
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #109 on: Jun 20th, 2010, 9:24pm »
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I wouldn't mind being Jill little nancy boy Embarassed
 
lol  Tongue
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #110 on: Jun 29th, 2010, 4:36am »
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chilled jill,  
 
I am happy that you have enjoyed your mixed school more than if it was only a school for girls.
 
You are certainly right about all what you have been able to learn about men, even if the boys were only teenagers in high school.
 
It is true that both genders generally have different reactions in much situations.
 
If a girl has no brothers at home, it is very interesting for her to discover some of the behaviours of the male teenagers which are not the same that those of most of the girls.
 
Nevertheless, except the fact that you had the opportunity to see your male classmates chest bare sometimes or in shorts during PE lessons, I presume that you have never seen much more.
 
You did not see them undressed for physicals, or in locker rooms under showers (or being hazed until nakedness like it could be in college)?
 
you could only hear rumors and try to know a little more about their physicals in school but you were never present.
 
And you were not in a school where the boys had to swim naked like it was in the past in some schools.
 
If I have well understood your statements, you had a boyfriend who related to you some situations but nothing more happened in your high school or college?
 
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #111 on: Jul 13th, 2010, 5:17pm »
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I haven't kept up with this thread, but I have a general comment on boys swimming nude in gym class.
 
Those days are over!
 
When I was in high school (which wasn't all that long ago) I could not even imagine the boys swimming nude. Swim classes were segregated by sex, but still, that's asking for a WHOLE lot of trouble in today's climate. Not to mention most high school students are under 18 and there could very well be school administrators going to jail over that!
 
No school could tolerate that (let alone encourage it) today. The legal risks (both civil and criminal) would be brutal!
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #112 on: Jul 13th, 2010, 5:42pm »
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I don't think you are totally correct. There is no law which says that boys cannot be made to swim nude at school. If parents sign that they want to allow their boys to swim nude at a paticular school I would imagine that it would be legal. This is done in the case of paddling in many schools today.
Although I can't see it being done in public schools since they are run by the state, and so it is the state that makes the policy, it could easily be done in private schools, especially boys only schools. It will all depend on the parents if they want to allow it or not.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #113 on: Jul 13th, 2010, 5:59pm »
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on Jul 13th, 2010, 5:42pm, Bobby_Bare wrote:
I don't think you are totally correct. There is no law which says that boys cannot be made to swim nude at school.

 
 
 
I may not be correct but---- I don't see how it can happen today. All any boy has to say is "I felt humiliated", "the teacher looked at me funny", "I didn't want to do it", etc.,  and BANG-- Instant law suit.
 
 
I know the laws protect females from sexual exploitation much more than they do males but, as a male, I like to feel we some rights against being sexually exploited.
 
and don't say it's nonsexual-- anytime you make someone take off their clothes it can be construed as sexual if you wish to interpret it that way.
 
I could be wrong, but I've never heard of it happening to any of my contempories. The only stories you ever hear about it are over 30 years old. I'd be willing to bet it's disappeared even from Private schools long ago. They can be sued just as easily as a public school.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #114 on: Jul 14th, 2010, 11:13pm »
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I think that you are probably correct that no school, private or public, would take the risk of forcing boys to do swim nude or even force them to shower after gym class for that matter, and while I know from my experience at the gym that most guys under 35 won't even shower at the gym; however, there are a few private all boys schools that allow boys to swim naked (summer camps do this as well).  It is the same as allowing them to shower after gym class.  Nobody is forced to do anything.  Then it breaks down to the composition of various classes at various times in the 4 year cycles that schools go through.  If the elite group of young men swims nude, then you are less of a man for wearing a suit and not strutting your junk; if the elites wear suits, then you are gay for showing your junk.  As with everything else, its all about the hierarchy.  But you are correct that in this age where you can win a law suit if the coffee is too hot, no school lawyer would allow a school to demand boys to even take showers.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #115 on: Aug 1st, 2010, 3:11am »
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Very impressive discussion.  CFNM lovers must also trait to geniuses.
 
Some random thoughts:
The Suntimes article link is broke.   Too hot for a family newspaper? I know the comments from females alone "weighing in" on the subject of youthful male penises would have had *me* going.
As with showers, there is the social function in male groups of going nude to prove ones non-gayness.
Can't rule out homosexual coaches for keeping the custom going.
Can't rule out "pioneer days" CFNM loving coaches for forgetting to put up the "Keep out Boys Swim Class in Progress" signs either.  (-:
Hard to believe that any woman related or not was allowed to watch post Pubescent boys ...in any era.  Must have been accident.
More believable in the 40s because today's hypersexed world would find layers and layers of abuse and lawsuits if boys were req to be naked or heaven forfend a girl was exposed to a naked  penis at 100 yards without signing a consent form or undergoing grief counseling.
To country boys, bathing equals swimming so wearing suit was crazy. Pulling suit on and off plus drying and transport wastes time U could be swimming.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #116 on: Nov 10th, 2010, 7:52am »
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 Who is THE GUY? Is that you RODNEY?
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #117 on: Nov 10th, 2010, 12:55pm »
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I periodically check those sites. Under NUDE SWIMMING AT SCHOOL, someone, THE GUY, posted what I read here. Thought it might be you. See post starts at 2160.  Always got a kick out of some of the post. Guys being embarrassed and humiliated by being FORCED to go topless. What has this world coming to?  LEO C
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #118 on: Nov 11th, 2010, 12:26am »
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I grew up on the west coast in the 40's and 50's.  I knew of no nude swimming in any organized, public venue.  The Midwest was different.  Nude male  swimming was common in Wisconsin public pools--even in swimmming classes taught and watched by females, as evidenced by newspaper articles presented on this forum by Brad.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #119 on: Nov 14th, 2010, 2:10am »
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Seamine:  
 
I grew up in Minnesota in the 50's. Wisconsin was across the river.  It was mandatory in the YMCA to swim in the nude.  All through junior high school and senior high school we swam in the nude.  The girls did not, they wore suits.  Females were never present at our classes.  I never heard of a woman teaching swimming class to boys much less in the nude until this board.  Obvisously there were female swimming instructors in Minnesota, but they only taught the girls.  
 
While Brad may have found evidence that says that females taught swimming classes and that boys swam in the nude there have been no articles cited that specifically say the females supervised organized nude boys swimming classes.  
 
You need to remember what you were like at this age.  To be nude in front of a woman at this age would have horrified you.  It would also have horrified your parents and subjected anyone who organized this program to severe criticism.   The reason it doesn't happen anymore is because sone people objected to it.  I remember when it happened in Minnesota in the 70's.  A boy complained to his mother and his mother complained to school authorities.  The boys took a vote on whether to wear suits or not and they chose to wear suits.  I don't doubt that private instruction occurred with female instructors and boys in the nude but if it occurred at all in an organized venue it was an isolated occurrence.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #120 on: Nov 14th, 2010, 7:00am »
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Here some inconveniences of boys swimming nude  Grin
 
http://imgsrc.ru/fkk-lover/20589973.html#bp
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #121 on: Nov 14th, 2010, 1:16pm »
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on Nov 14th, 2010, 2:10am, Youngren wrote:

 
...You need to remember what you were like at this age.  To be nude in front of a woman at this age would have horrified you.  It would also have horrified your parents and subjected anyone who organized this program to severe criticism....
 

 
Baloney. I have said several times that I swam nude at Ys in an "organized" program with suited women instructor/lifeguards. We all got used to it very quickly. Not only did my mother not object to the situation, she encouraged my participation.
 
Period.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #122 on: Nov 14th, 2010, 5:55pm »
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YOUNGREN, you are making a mistake when you assume other people would have been horrified to be nude in front of girls at a young age. I swam nude regurally up to my being 12. Then was nude in front of grown women, and a few young girls when I was 14 and 15, at my mothers direction no less.  
 Any ones who would have complained to there parents about being required to swim nude would have been laughted at. No offence but it seems you lived in a strange area. Can you really remember being 5 yrs old?  LEO C
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #123 on: Nov 14th, 2010, 6:29pm »
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Youngren, the *it* in the quote below is nude boys swimming classes without any women, I assume, not nude boys swimming with women present.  
 
I still havent seen solid third-party evidence that there were sanctioned (i.e. approved) situations where clothed females were present (as observers, coaches, lifeguards, fellow swimmers ... anything) at nude male swimming events.  
 
Of course it happened (virtually everything under the sun has happened (see, Penthouse Forum) .. but not sanctioned I don't believe.  
 
Speaking of everything under the sun .. although I support your skepticism, Youngren, I think that it is overstating to say  "You need to remember what you were like at this age.  To be nude in front of a woman at this age would have horrified you.  It would also have horrified your parents and subjected anyone who organized this program to severe criticism."  There would have been at least a small number who would not have been horrified.  There aren't too many universal opinions.  Even more importantly, not everyone would have complained.  The default switch for most children is to "do what you're told". The default switch even for adults is even to "not rock the boat." If someone in power would have tried to sneak CFNM swimming past the students and parents, it is possible that easily led students and parents would have not gone so far as to complain.  Remember all the crazy experiments foisted on students in the 60s in the name of peace, love and the revolution by so called experts. People generally trust experts, especially in educational settings.
 
on Nov 14th, 2010, 2:10am, Youngren wrote:
The reason it doesn't happen anymore is because sone people objected to it.  I remember when it happened in Minnesota in the 70's.  A boy complained to his mother and his mother complained to school authorities.  

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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #124 on: Nov 14th, 2010, 10:24pm »
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Henri:  I looked like one of those guys when I stripped for my sisters' girlfriends.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #125 on: Nov 14th, 2010, 10:37pm »
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Ned:  
 
Of course nude swimming occurred when females were present in the 50's.  It was common for males to swim nude at swimming  holes and sometimes females were present.  I know that happened, I participated.  What you say is true about being absolute.  Some people would not have been horrified at women being present while nude boys swam.  However, it only takes one to complain and the self righteous nearly always win.  I do not find it hard to believe that nude swimming occurred with females present in the 50's what I find hard to believe is that anyone in government or the YMCA organized such things and invited the public, especially children.  To do so would be a career killing move!
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #126 on: Nov 15th, 2010, 5:31pm »
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Many of you have seen this, but if not, it is a documentary on Youtube about the history of nude swimming in gym classed.  It is in three parts, and is the best and most researched expose I've seen yet.   There are numerous sources identified, reasons for its use and why so many don't know about it today.    It answers many questions we've posed.  In one, it even shows a newspaper article a specific swim class wherein parents/open night was conducted, and even on that night the decision was made that the younger boys would swim nude then as well.
 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGt_HUSSyQQ&feature=related
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eznEFMp6odU&feature=related
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNxNnywZ3tU&feature=related
 
 
Also, a re-post, but very funny Youtube featuring Episode 13 of "Jerry's Time" called The Naked Swim:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD3WtrdkLME
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #127 on: Nov 15th, 2010, 6:38pm »
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"youngreen" : I am not sure that I have well understood you  when you said in your message  that it would have horrified the parents if they had known that the boys were naked in swimming lessons in front of women.
 
do you mean that the parents would have objected to the presence of girls classmates at the same time than the boys in the swimming pool?, in that case, I believe that you are right and that it would have been certainly the parents of the girls classmates who would have objected the more.  
 
but if you want to say that the parents would have objected to the presence of adults women as instructors, I believe rather that you are wrong .
I cannot be sure of that but I believe on the reverse that swimming lesson of boys in the nude in schools or YMCA centers lasted a long time  because no adults were thinking that it was unfair.
Not the parents of boys and not the school authorities objected to that. And the presence of a female instructor was certainly not an issue.
 
You said that there was a mother  of a boy who had complained about swimming lessons for boys  in the nude  but about what did she complain? the fact that her son was naked or the presence of girls?
 
   
 
 
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #128 on: Nov 15th, 2010, 8:24pm »
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Easter-man:
 
When I grew up we didn't even have female lifeguards.  It wouldn't have occurred to anyone to have hired a female swimming instructor even if the boys wore suits.  As I explained before eventually a boy complained to his mother that he didn't want to swim in the nude.  His mother complained to the school and when a vote was taken he won.  This was only when boys were nude in front of each other and the male instructor.  If a boy complained to swim in the nude where only males are present how likely would it have been to complained if there was a female present.  When you were 13 or 14 would you have wanted to swim nude in front of one of your female teachers?
 
Brad:
 
I listened in total to the History of Nude Swimming.  I agree with you that the program was excellent.  I had never understood why it was that we swam in the nude.  The fact that girls didn't swim in the nude was also explained.  It was also before the time when equality of the sexes was an issue.  Note that they did mention that when girls were admitted to swimming class the boys wore suits.  Note also that there is no mention whatsoever about female swimming instructors.  
 
There is something silly about the fact that everyone wears suits while swimming in school now.  What do they wear when they shower?  Do they wear suits?  What difference does it make whether your naked in the shower or in swimming class? 
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #129 on: Nov 15th, 2010, 11:01pm »
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Brad, once again your research has been most enlightening.
 
I now understand that nude swimming was largely a public health issue.  Given that issue, the double standard seems to have developed out of the public's perception of "maleness" (if you're bashful, you're not a "real man"), the desire to foster female modesty, together with the imagined asexuality of children.
 
As time progressed, advances were made in pool water circulation, filtration, and chlorination, and synthetic swimsuit material became commonplace, the issue of public health became less of an issue, and public sentiment slowly changed.
 
We also discovered that children are not completely asexual.
 
But what we are left with is the double standard.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #130 on: Nov 15th, 2010, 11:04pm »
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on Nov 15th, 2010, 11:01pm, SeaMine wrote:
Brad, once again your research has been most enlightening.
 
I now understand that nude swimming was largely a public health issue.  Given that issue, the double standard seems to have developed out of the public's perception of "maleness" (if you're bashful, you're not a "real man"), the desire to foster female modesty, together with the imagined asexuality of children.
 
As time progressed, advances were made in pool water circulation, filtration, and chlorination, and synthetic swimsuit material became commonplace, the issue of public health became less of an issue, and public sentiment slowly changed.
 
We also discovered that children are not completely asexual.
 
But what we are left with is the double standard.

 
Yes, you summed it up very well.   It is confirmation of what many of us felt in our gut.   It also mentions how women would stray into the pool area, and, how when the pool areas weren't properly designed, the girls would watch the boys...either from under doors or in windows they could look through.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #131 on: Nov 15th, 2010, 11:10pm »
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on Nov 15th, 2010, 8:24pm, Youngren wrote:

 
Brad:
 
I listened in total to the History of Nude Swimming.  I agree with you that the program was excellent.  I had never understood why it was that we swam in the nude.  The fact that girls didn't swim in the nude was also explained.  It was also before the time when equality of the sexes was an issue.  Note that they did mention that when girls were admitted to swimming class the boys wore suits.  Note also that there is no mention whatsoever about female swimming instructors.  
 
There is something silly about the fact that everyone wears suits while swimming in school now.  What do they wear when they shower?  Do they wear suits?  What difference does it make whether your naked in the shower or in swimming class? 

 
I really appreciate the hard research that guy did.   Although I'm the biggest proponent of not calling anyone's story b.s., I can't believe any of the stories claimed that there was institutionalized mixed gender swimming when the boys were nude.   I also believe it was rare and uncommon when women were allowed into the swim area where the boys swam.   However, given the testimonials and the "asexual" view of nude boys swimming, I believe women did indeed enter the swim areas with the boys, and, it is not inconceivable that in some rare instances, female instructors were allowed to teach boy swim classes, but not at the Y.
 
    
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #132 on: Nov 16th, 2010, 7:15am »
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Do you believe the photos in magazines like National Geographic that show tribal people nude in the jungle or desert and in their villages are fake? Are pictures from certain European and other beaches fakes?
 
Is everything that isn't in line with the current situation false? Is today's circumstance eternal?
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #133 on: Nov 16th, 2010, 2:36pm »
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1)We need to make a distinction between post-pubescent and pre-, dont we?
 
Mothers and even sisters coming in or even staying and watching 6-year olds is not even worth commenting on, IMO.
 
2)  Haven't watched the Youtube series yet.  But I'd be very interested if there were any well-told descriptions from a girl's point of view of doing that peeking you are talking about Brad.  Post-pubescent of course.  
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #134 on: Nov 16th, 2010, 6:32pm »
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Brad has said what seems the most reasonable opinion about that practice of boys in the nude in swimming lessons !
 
" I can't believe any of the stories claimed that there was institutionalized mixed gender swimming when the boys were nude""
 
me too
 
"I also believe it was rare and uncommon when women were allowed into the swim area where the boys swam. However, given the testimonials and the"asexual" view of nude boys swimming, I believe women did indeed enter the swim areas with the boys, and, it is not inconceivable that in some rare instances, female instructors were allowed to teach boy swim classes, but not at the Y"
 
me too, but except that it never happened in  youth centers
on the opposite of Brad, I believe that it happened also occasionally in the youth centers  that a female instructor was allowed to teach swim to boys, more over kids, when there was not men at the same time than the boys  
why would it be possible in schools and not in youth centers? even if not coomon as it is said.
 
More over, it seems to me more credible  to be true in youth centers than in schools and as I think that it happened sometimes at schools, it might have happened also in youth centers
 
 
As regards girls watching the boys by an under door or through a window,  possibly it happened if they had this opportunity to do it, why not but how can be sure ?
 
Brad said that it happened when the pool areas were not properly designed.
yes it coud be a reason but it means that girls were not well supervised by teachers or monitors?  and school authorities not very cautious or concerned by this issue  
possibly! 
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #135 on: Nov 17th, 2010, 4:34am »
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on Nov 16th, 2010, 6:32pm, easter_man_10 wrote:
 
 
... I believe that it happened also occasionally in the youth centers  that a female instructor was allowed to teach swim to boys, more over kids, when there was not men at the same time than the boys  
why would it be possible in schools and not in youth centers? even if not coomon as it is said...
 

 
You are right. It did happen in my experience where female instructors taught swimming to boys, as I have said. Those classes happened only at the Y. I did not attend a school however that had swimming, nude or otherwise. I did attend a summer camp one year (as a counselor) where swimming in the lake was sometimes done nude by the younger boys, mainly because they had no suits (it was a camp for underprivileged kids). In that instance, the swim instructors and lifeguards were women (wearing suits).
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #136 on: Nov 17th, 2010, 5:52am »
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Allan, your account of boys swimming nude with female instructors and lifeguards at the summer camp is very interesting. Was it a boys only summer camp or were there also girls, and what were the ages of the boys?  
I have seen other accounts about these summer camps for underprivileged boys, usually inner city kids, which were manned and run by women, mostly college girl volunteers who acted as camp councillors to the boys, and nudity in front of these girls seems to have been common at these camps. I think I posted about such an account on another thread. These 'charity' camps seem to have been common in the 50's. And as you say, swimsuits, at least for boys, were a luxury, and considered unnecessary, for poor families in those days.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #137 on: Nov 17th, 2010, 6:05am »
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For those posters who are claiming that female spectators were never present during boys nude swim competitions here is a post  from an old forum by a woman who mentions the places and years where she regularly saw boys competing nude at Y's as a young girl with her mother and other girls and women.
 
"You had me believing until that bit about there being
no naked male swimmers with girls or women watching or
in attendance. When I was 10, 11 and 12 I saw boys swim competitively and naked while standing and sitting in a spectator area with my mother in a Y in
Worcester and Fitchburg, MA, USA. My brother was among them. I found it very interesting.
Yes, there were other girls there. This was in 1954, 53, and 52. I don't know what the boys thought. I had seen my brother nude before. But I thought it was cool to see the other boys, I guess. It was all sort of natural back then."
 
 
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #138 on: Nov 17th, 2010, 11:51am »
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Bobby, the camp was only boys. It had a mix of house mothers and male counselors. I was a junior counselor, aged all of 15 years old that summer. Swimming nude in the lake was by no means mandated or probably really acknowledged (in a public sense) by the camp admin. Rather it was the result of deciding if it was OK to deny young boys (6 or 7 or so) who had arrived at camp without a swimsuit the opportunity to swim in a hot day. Letting them swim nude, or rather frolic in the water, was often considered the better alternative to letting them swim in their underwear, or not at all. I remember being surprised the first time I saw it and talking to one of the lifeguards, a woman, who called them 'cute'. She did not, of course, mean it in a sexual sense, just that they were kids. And the lake front was set up so the kids could be corralled by surrounding floating docks and kept track of. This was in 1956, Camp Wonderland, Lake Massapoag, Sharon, MA.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #139 on: Nov 18th, 2010, 6:23pm »
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I note "she" goes to great lengths to mention three ages she possibly was, but not the boys' ages.  
 
Also, this phraseology doesn't sound natural to me: " I thought it was cool to see the other boys".  
 
on Nov 17th, 2010, 6:05am, Bobby_Bare wrote:

 
"You had me believing until that bit about there being
no naked male swimmers with girls or women watching or
in attendance. When I was 10, 11 and 12 I saw boys swim competitively and naked while standing and sitting in a spectator area with my mother in a Y in
Worcester and Fitchburg, MA, USA. My brother was among them. I found it very interesting.
Yes, there were other girls there. This was in 1954, 53, and 52. I don't know what the boys thought. I had seen my brother nude before. But I thought it was cool to see the other boys, I guess. It was all sort of natural back then."
 
 

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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #140 on: Nov 18th, 2010, 6:27pm »
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I think that "Ned' is  right in pointing that point.  
 
"I note "she" goes to great lengths to mention three ages she possibly was, but not the boys' ages.  
 
Also, this phraseology doesn't sound natural to me: " I thought it was cool to see the other boys".
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #141 on: Nov 18th, 2010, 7:36pm »
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on Nov 18th, 2010, 6:27pm, easter_man_10 wrote:
I think that "Ned' is  right in pointing that point.  
 
"I note "she" goes to great lengths to mention three ages she possibly was, but not the boys' ages.  
 
Also, this phraseology doesn't sound natural to me: " I thought it was cool to see the other boys".  

 
I do not know if that is a true account or not, but I did not read it that she was saying those were the ages she was, but rather that she had seen the swimming on three successive years at three different ages. So that is legit. And the expression "I thought it was cool to see the other boys" also sounds legit to me. The word "cool" used that way was definitely of that era. I used it myself during the 1950s; I think it came out of the be-bop era of the 1940s, but it might be older than that.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #142 on: Nov 19th, 2010, 3:52am »
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so we cannot  be sure of the truth of such relations, each of us has his own opinion about it !
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #143 on: Nov 19th, 2010, 4:31am »
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on Nov 18th, 2010, 6:23pm, Ned wrote:
I note "she" goes to great lengths to mention three ages she possibly was, but not the boys' ages.  
 
Also, this phraseology doesn't sound natural to me: " I thought it was cool to see the other boys".  
 

 
I don't know what you mean by  "she goes to great lengths to mention three ages she possibly was". She simply stated her exact age and years during which she saw the boys competing nude, and also named the places. So it sounds genuine to me.
Although she didn't mention the ages of the boys it is obvious that they would have been in their early teens at least since these were swimteams competing.
I also don't find anything "unnatural" in her expression of  " I thought it was cool to see the other boys".  It is obvious what she means. It is obviously a female expression, a male would have put it more graphic.
Unfortunately this was taken from a now defunct forum so I can't give a link, I just saved the page at the time. I think it was from about 2 or 3 years ago.
 
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #144 on: Nov 19th, 2010, 8:41am »
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Like Bobby, I see absolutely nothing unusual in the information she included in the post.
 
I think anyone recounting an incident in their life would talk about their own age even if they didn't mention the ages of other people in the story.
 
And the comment about seeing other boys sounds perfectly normal to me, in both the words she used and the fact that it was "other boys". She said that she had seen her brother naked. It would be noteworthy for her to say that she now had seen other boys naked, given that all would have different bodily attributes from her brother. A chance to see lots of different penises, butts, etc.
 
Who among us would not have liked to see lots of naked girls or women, gathered in one place, through the different periods of our lives?
 
Whatever your point of view on the truth or falsity of these stories, I think it is important to not go overboard in nitpicking the details to prove our point.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #145 on: Nov 19th, 2010, 10:21am »
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"Bobby Bare and Maverick"
 
it is not because a woman  gives her age and the year and town when a situation was supposed to happen that it is true since we cannot check it.
 
it is always to each person to believe or not a relation, it is not the same with articles of newspapers or some photos when we are sure that they are true because they were published in magazines or newspapers.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #146 on: Nov 19th, 2010, 8:21pm »
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easter
 
I have no idea if the story is true or not, or if it is actually a woman telling the story. It could be totally made up by a man or boy.
 
I was merely responding to the two comments made that what was said in the story and how it was said was unusual.
 
At least two of us didn't see anything particularly unusual in the details of the story which would immeadiately point to it being false or even questionable simply based on the content.
 
Sorry if it seemed like I was being critical of you. I simply wanted to say that I didn't see anything in the wording of the story which pointed to it being obviously false. It seemed a natural and normal way to tell that story from the perspective of a woman recounting her preteen experience from years before.
 
I have appreciated your comments to various topics on many occaisions. Thanks for offering your views so freely.
 
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #147 on: Nov 20th, 2010, 6:07pm »
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I agree with Maverick and Easter_Man. Stories found online can easily be made up.Just because someone posts a story claiming to be a woman doesn't mean it's actually a woman.  
 
There is an article that implies boys swam naked in front of spectators, but by choice.The article is from the new york times.Here's part of it:

 

 
 
You can download the rest of the article here:
 
http://depositfiles.com/files/xq2uqan38
 
This article only talks about younger boys though.Spectators watching teens at organized events is highly unlikely.Let's also not forget that the boys weren't expected to be nude during their competition..So this article isn't evidence that boys swam nude in front of spectators as a general rule because suits WERE required.The reason the boys swam nude in front of spectators wasn't because they were expected to, but as the article said, it was because they realized they could swim faster without the weight of wool suits on them. Ultimately it was the boys decision to swim nude, not the holders of the event.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #148 on: Nov 20th, 2010, 6:49pm »
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Interesting article. But one must realize that boys who always swam nude and practiced nude, and never wore a swimsuit in their life, no matter who was present and looking, would find it strange to wear suits when they were competing, even with spectators present.
Obviously some places allowed this and some didn't. But I agree that this would be mostly with junior boys and teams, maybe up to 12 or so. Though there could have been exceptions with teenage boys too in a few places.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #149 on: Nov 20th, 2010, 7:02pm »
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From the account I quoted I think that in a subsequent post she said that her brother whom she saw competing with other boys in front of mixed spectators was two years younger than her. So if she watched the boys until she was 13 as she says the boys would have been 11 years old at least.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #150 on: Nov 20th, 2010, 7:26pm »
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Although I never saw a swim competition with nude teen or adult male swimmers and female spectators, nor participated in one personally even as a child, there is not a shred of doubt in my mind that such things happened, and happened fairly broadly.
 
I base this almost entirely on my own experiences growing up and being supervised as a boy while swimming nude by adult, clothed women. Not only was it not considered then an embarrassing thing for us to do, but an unmanly thing to not do. Men were simply not that easily shamed, or so we were led to believe. And a variety of women made nothing of it either, at least in public, regardless of what they did or did not think or enjoy privately about the experience.
 
It is also worth mentioning that some of the various stories that I have read over the years about men competing nude in front of women have struck me as having the ring of truth about them. And not all of the pictures are fakes. I am sure some stories and some photos are fabricated, others exaggerated, but so what? I have read tons of stories in my life about various sexual conquests guys had with women and know for a fact that some of them were lies. But that does not make me believe for a minute that men and women do not fuck -- in other words, at sometime or other many if not most sexually related stories are likely true, especially if they are widespread. That is just human nature. Hell, it was just a few years ago that I realized (from observation) that young girls enjoyed cleaning the penises of their pet horses, and later learned from one of them that she sometimes masturbated her stallion just for kicks. I never would have thought a virginal young blond girl of 14 or 15 capable of doing such a thing. And more recently I learned from a woman I know that she and a friend had actually had sex with a male dog back in the 1960s, something I find close to disgusting (and she does now too)
 
As I breath down the neck of turning 70, I sometimes  wonder what it must be like to be 40 or 50 years younger and have trouble accepting such anecdotes about swimming back in the 1940s and 50s. But I usually just decide that people will have to get smarter on their own through personal experience and it is barely worth the effort any more to set them straight.
 
They had to be there to understand. And they weren't and never will be.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #151 on: Nov 20th, 2010, 7:45pm »
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on Nov 20th, 2010, 7:02pm, Bobby_Bare wrote:
From the account I quoted I think that in a subsequent post she said that her brother whom she saw competing with other boys in front of mixed spectators was two years younger than her. So if she watched the boys until she was 13 as she says the boys would have been 11 years old at least.

 
 
 
 
I don't believe the story.This story is told by a someone who claimed this was the 50's.Even in 1909 boys were required to wear suits during organized events,and it's unrealistic to think by 1950 the tide turned to where boys were required to swim nude.The New York Times article was from 1909 so woolen suits would have been used.Unlike the boys from the 1909 article, the boys in the 50's wouldn't have been hampered by the same woolen suits which drove the 1909 boys to remove them.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #152 on: Nov 20th, 2010, 9:18pm »
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on Nov 20th, 2010, 7:45pm, somedude wrote:

 
 
 
 
I don't believe the story.This story is told by a someone who claimed this was the 50's.Even in 1909 boys were required to wear suits during organized events,and it's unrealistic to think by 1950 the tide turned to where boys were required to swim nude.The New York Times article was from 1909 so woolen suits would have been used.Unlike the boys from the 1909 article, the boys in the 50's wouldn't have been hampered by the same woolen suits which drove the 1909 boys to remove them.

 
We're once again falling into the trap of generalizing - here, it is about what would happen, in, say 1909 based upon a single news article and then using that carte blanche.  As we've been able to document, custom and culture varied drastically based upon differing communities and social mores.    As I noted, today there are some communities on, say, Florida's coast that strictly regulate the bathing attire of young women and a thong will get you arrested.  Yet just up the coast an hour or so, complete full nudity is fully acceptable within the law and allowed by the community (Haulover).    Similarly, at some seaside resorts in the Victorian Era, men had to wear flannel swimwear that stretched from their necks to below their knees because if their knees were laid bare, it was considered vulgar and indecent.    Yet just up the shoreline, not only were the men showing their knees, but also their bare asses and cocks.   It was a stark contrast in customs for the respective beach environments, both happening at the same time.    Neither customary practice can be pointed at as what was occurring at all the beaches.
 
Throughout the 1900s and into the 20th century, it was illegal to swim nude in watering holes and rivers in a number of communities, and law enforcement tried to stop it.  Yet in other communities such as along the Hudson, it was standard fair for males to swim naked all over, and no one cared until bath houses were built for the boys in the early 20th century.
 
An article that cites a specific event and what happened does not constitute any basis for generalizing about the rest of the world in that given year.  
 
In 1880, it would have been unthinkable for boys older than, say, 10, to swim naked at a popular beach at any of the large seaside resorts in the world - no different than today.  It was the photos of those places and stories about them that initially made me conclude it never happened.  However, further research resulted in learning that there were other areas where it was not only done, but was how most boys (up to even 16 years old) would swim.   My initial inaccurate perspective was due to  generalizing based upon anecdotal readings and photos.  
 
Again, the article about the boys competing naked was a moment, a place, a time - and things were certainly different elsewhere.   However, it does provide some evidence about at least one situation and allows for speculation thus allowing *some* broader understanding. 
 
In the end, we have to look at everything being thrown out on this board and elsewhere to begin to get, at best, a vague understanding of things.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #153 on: Nov 20th, 2010, 11:28pm »
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The article I posted was indeed "a moment, a place, a time". This situation was one where the boys themselves decided to swim nude in front of spectators, not one where they were required to swim nude in front of spectators.I'm the type that needs some kind of evidence, not some anecdote by an anonymous person on some board(I'm not referring to this board when i say that).
 
I don't believe the anecdote of the girl watching boys swimming nude.You, Brad, have posted plenty of articles, (many of which i was never able to see because they were deleted before i got the chance), photos and paintings (again,many  that got deleted before i saw them),and excerpts from books that prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there was male nude bathing in mixed company of clothed women.I never doubted the nude swimming for boys in school and YMCA.
 
I would have never believed that men and boys swam naked in front of women and girls had you not posted that excerpt from the Traveller's Journal. As for nude swimming in front of spectators at organized events, I just don't believe it as there's no evidence for it.The article I posted was just as you said,"a moment, a time, a place".And as I said before, the situation wasn't one where nudity was required despite the spectators.Suits were required,and the only reason that boys swam nude in front of spectators was because they,the boys, chose to remove them because they felt it was holding them back.
 
Other than the example in the article, there's no evidence that  nude swimming was required at organized events where there were spectators.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #154 on: Nov 20th, 2010, 11:49pm »
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on Nov 20th, 2010, 11:28pm, somedude wrote:
The article I posted was indeed "a moment, a place, a time". This situation was one where the boys themselves decided to swim nude in front of spectators, not one where they were required to swim nude in front of spectators.I'm the type that needs some kind of evidence, not some anecdote by an anonymous person on some board(I'm not referring to this board when i say that).
 
I don't believe the anecdote of the girl watching boys swimming nude.You, Brad, have posted plenty of articles, (many of which i was never able to see because they were deleted before i got the chance), photos and paintings (again,many  that got deleted before i saw them),and excerpts from books that prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there was male nude bathing in mixed company of clothed women.I never doubted the nude swimming for boys in school and YMCA.

 
I'm very much with you on that.  I quit going to the blogs and basing anything on those anonymous stories as some are pretty damned far out and are more about fantasy than reality.   And although I'd never call anyone out here on this board, we all have an internal b.s. meter that sounds off on some of these stories (although my b.s. meter has been wrong before).
 
Whenever I read "yes, I swam naked in my teens at the Y and there were girls in the class" or anything that would imply such customs were normal and "no one thought much about it", the brakes are slammed on my reading that post and I move on to the next one.   I also note who the poster is as it makes reading through the many posts more efficient because when you see the next post from that person, you can just skip it and move on to the more real posts.    
 
If someone photoshops something, such as naked boys standing in line with man-size erections copied off of some adult porn site, I'd hope everyone, including the original poster, knows it was a joke.   When I posted the artwork I did on Photoshop the other day that many thought I was trying to imply it was a real painting, I had to chime in and take credit for it.  I hope that it was enjoyed the way I wanted it to be enjoyed.
 
With that said, there are some blogs where I do take heed of what the posters are saying, particularly when it is more of an official blog such as one authored by, say, a newspaper editor or a school district (which have both had nude-boy swim class stories although none have yet to confirm what level of female observance there was).  The one on the school district site was by a real woman reminiscing about how she use to peep into the boys pool area from the girl's locker room, and, how other men posting talked about constantly hearing laughter from behind the girl's gym doors.
 
Also, I agree with the posters that say that stories discussing swim classes with little boys, say, 6 or 7, should not be considered or discussed as they are irrelevant and of no interest.   Children that age are basically toddlers and haven't been out of diapers all that long and parading about naked means nothing to them.   There's no way they could have the psychological embarrassment of being forced to be nude in front of females, which is what I believe is an underlying essence of this thread - the double standard and mental impact it had on many of us (I too experienced being forced to be naked in front of girls by an extremely strict mother and father that didn't give my embarrassment any thought.)
 
Please advise which of the photos or stories you want reposted.   I've learned that if we upload to certain sites, our intentions aren't misconstrued, and the jerks that have them deleted won't be able to access them.
 
Finally, I recommend going back through the posts and see where I uploaded the original photo, artwork are story to a file sharing host.   You can then download it in its original full text as I found it on the Internet.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #155 on: Nov 21st, 2010, 3:00am »
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Okay, I just said how I don't bother with blogs, k, I lied.  I just visited one for Houston ISD.   A guy posted this, and I REALLY believe it.   I'm reading this drinking my cheap wine (a lot are on sale given the holidays - don't buy them, I'm disappointed in this one).
 
Anyway...I digress.  You've GOT to read this.  I'm having trouble typing I'm laughing so hard!  Grin
 

"Yup, i went to Johnston in the early sixties, for 7th and 8th grade, and boys swam in the nude. Oddly enough, it didn't even seem especially weird at the time, certainly not like it would be nowadays.
 
I swam there the 1st semester of 7th grade. At one point, someone crapped in the pool. I am not making this up. This is too weird for me to make up. Someone looked over, and there was a floater, a big one, looking like a Baby Ruth, floating in the middle, there. We all howled and pointed, and every one got dressed, and no one swam for about a week, while Coach Capers and Coach Macy questioned each of us individually. When it was my turn, I went in the coach's office, and Capers looked me directly in the eye and said "We already know who did it. We just want to see if YOU will tell the truth about it." Truth be told, they never knew\ who it was; I don't think any of us did.
 
Lots of people blamed Dorfburger (name changed), who was the school "victim" at the time. Poor b&stard was always getting pushed down the stairs, or knocked into the wall, or his street clothes thrown in the shower during gym. You saw him crying some where or another every week that first semester. Since he was in that swim class, everyone immediately started pointing at him and ridiculing him, laughing "Dorfburger did it!". I often wonder what happened to him today, 45 years later. Probably today he's a loan officer somewhere, turning down loans of people like those who used to hound him. More power to you, Dorfburger, wherever you are.
 
The coaches were straight ahead guys, from what I could tell. Disciplinary pops, from Capers or Macy, were to be avoided, if at all possible. They could give no more than three, but you did not even want ONE. No thank you , sir. It wasn't going to kill you. They were merely applying the board of education to the seat of knowledge. You could hear the pop through the door of the coach's office, so if we knew someone was getting pops, we'd gather on the other side of the door, and listen for that muffled "WHOOMP!!!" One may not have liked Capers nor Macy, but they got respect, unlike most teachers today.
 
I am glad to have found this thread, so I too can show some people, who flat out did not believe it when I told them about the nude swimming. I was beginning to think I hallucinated the whole thing.."
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #156 on: Nov 21st, 2010, 6:15am »
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Grin I believe it too and laughed hard at the thought of someone releasing a Richard the Third in the pool!!!!
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #157 on: Nov 21st, 2010, 11:37am »
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I agree totally with your well-wrought estimation of puritanism.  But I still dont believe it happened ... because things dont change that fast (in just a couple of decades).  You'd have to go back 100 years and to a non-Puritan country (i.e. a Catholic country) to find this.
 
on Nov 16th, 2008, 8:54pm, PC wrote:
There's no hope of convincing some people of the simple truth that different times had different cultures.
People who've spent their lives in the context of today's puritanical, sex-obsessed culture can't grasp it.
Yes, puritanical. A zero-tolerance orientation is puritanical orientation whether the subject is weapons or not "offending" anyone.

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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #158 on: Nov 21st, 2010, 11:40am »
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on Nov 20th, 2010, 7:02pm, Bobby_Bare wrote:
From the account I quoted I think that in a subsequent post she said that her brother whom she saw competing with other boys in front of mixed spectators was two years younger than her. So if she watched the boys until she was 13 as she says the boys would have been 11 years old at least.

 
 
Puberty in those days I believe was 14 for boys (down to 12 or younger now I think.  Why? Is debatable).
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #159 on: Nov 21st, 2010, 6:08pm »
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on Nov 20th, 2010, 11:49pm, Brad wrote:

 
Please advise which of the photos or stories you want reposted.   I've learned that if we upload to certain sites, our intentions aren't misconstrued, and the jerks that have them deleted won't be able to access them.
 
Finally, I recommend going back through the posts and see where I uploaded the original photo, artwork are story to a file sharing host.   You can then download it in its original full text as I found it on the Internet.

 
First, let me say that in your original post on the board "1800s - the Era of Double Standards and CFNM",you mentioned a book named "Designing the Seaside".I searched for the book online and found it.There are 2 different sites you can download it from:
 
1.http://depositfiles.com/en/files/mtchaz787
OR
2.http://www.filesonic.com/file/33774115/1861892748.pdf
 
 
on Nov 20th, 2010, 11:49pm, Brad wrote:
Please advise which of the photos or stories you want reposted.

 
On the board "Female Coaches with nude male swim teams", the following:
 
« Reply #128 on: Oct 8th, 2010, 1:19pm »
 
« Reply #236 on: Nov 2nd, 2010, 6:41pm »
 
« Reply #51 on: Sep 26th, 2010, 8:17am »
 
« Reply #59 on: Sep 26th, 2010, 4:36pm »
 
On the board "1800s - the Era of Double Standards and CFNM", the following:
 
« Reply #12 on: Oct 26th, 2010, 8:42pm »
 
« Reply #24 on: Oct 28th, 2010, 4:07pm »
 
 on Nov 20th, 2010, 11:49pm, Brad wrote:
Finally, I recommend going back through the posts and see where I uploaded the original photo, artwork are story to a file sharing host.

 
I don't understand that line.How would knowing that it was uploaded to tinypic or dumparump help me find it?
 
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #160 on: Nov 21st, 2010, 6:15pm »
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on Nov 21st, 2010, 11:40am, Ned wrote:

 
 
Puberty in those days I believe was 14 for boys (down to 12 or younger now I think.  Why? Is debatable).

 
 
I've heard it might have to do with modern nutrition.It's been said that today's people take in more nutrients than we did in the past.I also personally think it has something to do with the unnatural things they put in our food that kids are eating.Like GMO's ,hormones and other chemicals in our meat and dairy,fast good filled with fat and sodium,etc..all this is the likely culprit.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #161 on: Nov 22nd, 2010, 12:44am »
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on Nov 21st, 2010, 6:08pm, somedude wrote:

 
I don't understand that line.How would knowing that it was uploaded to tinypic or dumparump help me find it?
 

 
On a number of my posts when they are news articles, I uploaded the original files to depositfiles.   The preview photo links were disabled, but the documents are still on depositfiles.
 
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #162 on: Nov 22nd, 2010, 4:19am »
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Since there are multiple parallel threads on "boys swimming nude with girls", at the risk of being redundant, I'll re-post this on several of the threads.
 
I've uploaded a huge research archive folder full of all of the photos, renderings, news articles, books, journals, and, websites converted to .pdf's, that have been discussed in these threads.  All deal with with men/boys sea-bathing, swimming, etc., in the nude with clothed women spanning over the past 250 years.   Although it isn't comprehensive (after all, what is?)  it's about as comprehensive a research file you'll ever find.
 
I've tried to keep the focus on *real* CFNM, not staged CFNM swim events done for Internet porn sites.  It is a compressed folder of about 315 MB in size.  You'll find videos, .pdf files, jpeg files and a lot of documentation on the subject matter.
 
Much of it I discovered through hundreds of hours of Internet searching, although some of it was also downloaded from the many blogs that are of the same subject.  I believe the full newspaper articles and the photos are all pretty legit, but I can't vouch for all of it.
 
Once you've downloaded it, it will be easier for us to discuss the history while referencing documents you now have:
 
http://depositfiles.com/files/4u0vj74fw
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« Reply #163 on: Nov 22nd, 2010, 9:09pm »
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[quote author=Ned  
 
 But I still dont believe it happened ... because things dont change that fast (in just a couple of decades).
 
[/quote]
 
Prior to the 1950s no husband was ever allowed in the hospital delivery room to be present for the birth of their child.  Hospitals and OB/GYNs were united in their opposition to this.  In the 1960s there was even a case in Colorado where a husband who was denied permission to be present handcuffed himself to his wife when she was about to be wheeled into the delivery room.  Afterwards he was arrested and convicted of disorderly behavior.
 
Yet only two decades later, and ever since the 1980s, the man who chooses not to be present during the birth of their child is considered to be a poor and upsupportive husband.  If you doubt me ask any man or woman who are in their 50s about this complete reversal of the way things used to be.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #164 on: Nov 23rd, 2010, 3:43am »
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You are completely right "Yellow Fever"
 it was the same in France until recent years, some decades ago.  
 
And for those who complain about double standard, I advice you to read the english newspapers 'the Sun" and its third page where there is since 1970 a woman shot with just with a  very short panty and topless.
 
it was and is a great success !
 
each time that the persons in charge of the newspapers have tried to stop this page, a lot of readers have complained and it was eventually maintained since this year.
 
They have tried also to substitute to the woman a man with only a short swim suit and obviously bare chested, but it did not interest the readers and it was quickly stopped.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #165 on: Nov 23rd, 2010, 7:19am »
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This is true. When our kid was born in 1966 I was with my ex till the nurse looked under the covers and said, "I can see your baby's head." At that point I was hurried out.  
During her labor, up till then, I could look across the hall into an open door where someone else's baby was being born.
 
 
Things can change very rapidly, including social institutions.
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« Reply #166 on: Nov 23rd, 2010, 12:10pm »
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"RESOLVED! That the loss of my clothes does not worry me - to lose one's self-respect is the only serious loss. Clothes are nothing, character counts... "
 
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rt=nc&nma=true& ;item=310235260404
 
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #167 on: Nov 23rd, 2010, 8:57pm »
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[quote author=PC  
 
Things can change very rapidly, including social institutions. [/quote]
 
I'll give you another example or an extremely rapid shift in public morality
 
Nastassja Kinski was 15 when she filmed the full-frontal nudity scene at the ending of "To the Devil a Daughter" which was released in 1976.
 
Brooke Shields was 12 when she filmed "Pretty Baby" which was released in 1978.  She did "Blue Lagoon" two years later and "Endless Love" the following year.
 
Phoebe Cates was 17 when she filmed "Paradise" which was released in 1982.  
 
There were other movies, a few earlier ones, as well as a few others released at around the same time, but these are the most well-known ones with extended scenes of nudity or multiple nude scenes.  
 
However, society as a whole took a step back, took a look at ourselves, and to the dismay of ephebophiles everywhere, decided that "we" did not want to see movies which exploited underaged girls (and despite actions of their pushy stage-struck mothers).
 
Just a couple of years later, by the mid 1980s, Hollywood had an official code of conduct for the use of child actors that has ever since provided for the gainful employment of twenty-something actresses whenever high school locker room scenes were required in a movie.
 
Even though there was lots of money to be made by Hollywood in these teen exploitation movies, within a decade of the release of the first big budget one they were banned.  And of course one could argue that this was part of the drive to ban all forms of child exploitation.
 
Nonetheless, it really was a sea change in society as a whole.  And it took less than a decade to transpire. 
 
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #168 on: Nov 24th, 2010, 4:19pm »
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on Nov 23rd, 2010, 8:57pm, Yellow_Fever wrote:
I'll give you another example or an extremely rapid shift in public morality
 
Nastassja Kinski was 15 when she filmed the full-frontal nudity scene at the ending of "To the Devil a Daughter" which was released in 1976.
 
Brooke Shields was 12 when she filmed "Pretty Baby" which was released in 1978.  She did "Blue Lagoon" two years later and "Endless Love" the following year.
 
Phoebe Cates was 17 when she filmed "Paradise" which was released in 1982.  
 
There were other movies, a few earlier ones, as well as a few others released at around the same time, but these are the most well-known ones with extended scenes of nudity or multiple nude scenes.  
 
However, society as a whole took a step back, took a look at ourselves, and to the dismay of ephebophiles everywhere, decided that "we" did not want to see movies which exploited underaged girls (and despite actions of their pushy stage-struck mothers).
 
Just a couple of years later, by the mid 1980s, Hollywood had an official code of conduct for the use of child actors that has ever since provided for the gainful employment of twenty-something actresses whenever high school locker room scenes were required in a movie.
 
Even though there was lots of money to be made by Hollywood in these teen exploitation movies, within a decade of the release of the first big budget one they were banned.  And of course one could argue that this was part of the drive to ban all forms of child exploitation.
 
Nonetheless, it really was a sea change in society as a whole.  And it took less than a decade to transpire. 

 
A perfect illustration.   And even though those three actresses were under age, I sincerely believe the scenes were no doubt intended to be provocative.    Yet it was acceptable.
 
The travel journal posted in the other thread of the lady visiting the beach in 1882 with her daughters talk about how the ladies would "surreptitiously" spy on the older naked boys checking out their "details" with their opera glasses, but then defended the women for it.  The implication was that the ladies were enjoying looking at the boys' sex organs  and that even though these boys were under 18, such enjoyment was perfectly acceptable.   Today these same women would be scorned.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #169 on: Nov 25th, 2010, 4:15am »
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About Brooke Shields in "Blue Lagoon" : don't forget that in this movie, she had a body double (as she swam) for the most nude scenes. Her mother assisted to the filming, and she rejected othe first idea of the director to play with the girl and the boy all time bare naked. The mother even imposed that Brooke's young breast was most of the time (except for a love scene) covered by a wig of long hairs.
 
 Instead of that, there is a scene where the boy's penis and butts can be seen, whilst Brooke had a loin belt and her stupid long wig.  
 
Isn't it a perfect example of double standard ?
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #170 on: Nov 25th, 2010, 7:26am »
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on Nov 24th, 2010, 4:19pm, Brad wrote:

 
A perfect illustration.   And even though those three actresses were under age, I sincerely believe the scenes were no doubt intended to be provocative.    Yet it was acceptable.
 
The travel journal posted in the other thread of the lady visiting the beach in 1882 with her daughters talk about how the ladies would "surreptitiously" spy on the older naked boys checking out their "details" with their opera glasses, but then defended the women for it.  The implication was that the ladies were enjoying looking at the boys' sex organs  and that even though these boys were under 18, such enjoyment was perfectly acceptable.   Today these same women would be scorned.  

 
There was also the movie Blow Up in which two teen girls pull each other's clothes off while frolicing in a photo studio.
 
Feminists are largely responsible for censorship since then, not because they care about the girls' suffering any emotional damage but because they hate and fear men being interested in any women, much less young ones. Most men aren't interested in kids, though.
I doubt the girls in these movies had any problems because of them since they wouldn't be in show business if they weren't exhibitionists. They may have said later they felt bad about it because that's the thing right now.
« Last Edit: Nov 25th, 2010, 7:27am by PC » IP Logged

If a tree falls in the forest and there's nobody there to hear it I don't care.
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