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   Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
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PC
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« on: Nov 16th, 2008, 8:54pm »
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There's no hope of convincing some people of the simple truth that different times had different cultures.
People who've spent their lives in the context of today's puritanical, sex-obsessed culture can't grasp it.
Yes, puritanical. A zero-tolerance orientation is puritanical orientation whether the subject is weapons or not "offending" anyone.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #1 on: Nov 23rd, 2008, 8:43am »
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Some interesting post there. Institutional forced nudity, Humiliation, girls should be put in jail for looking at boys. Some very bizarre thoughts. I have to suspect that most of those posters have never experienced nude swimming and are just guessing on what things were like years ago.  
 Some even suggest the buildings were designed so that boys would be exposed. Some people sure go off the deep end. My opinion only. Did it a lot as a youngster, dont remember any boys being traumitized or having a problem with it. Some people have a problem with it appairently but you cant change history. Just the way things were. As far as I can remember, boys never gave it a thought.  Have no idea as to what females thought as it was never discussed.    LEO C
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PC
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #2 on: Nov 23rd, 2008, 10:24am »
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That's funny. I never noticed that one.
Buildings were built according to architechtural standards. Those included the purpose of the building, but the purpose in such cases was athletic activities and not nudism.
There may have been glitches due to buildings constructed for other purposes being modified or athletic facilities undergoing changes for various reasons over the years, but anything allowing for deliberate peeking would either have been accidental or small scale secret modification by people using the structures.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #3 on: Nov 23rd, 2008, 5:09pm »
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on Nov 23rd, 2008, 10:24am, PC wrote:
There may have been glitches due to buildings constructed for other purposes being modified or athletic facilities undergoing changes for various reasons over the years, but anything allowing for deliberate peeking would either have been accidental or small scale secret modification by people using the structures.

It worked both ways, sometimes, too.  In my junior high school, a new boys gym had been built, and the girls took over both sides of the old locker room.  But one of the baffles, protecting an outside door that opened on the access route to the showers, wasn't quite as large as it should have been.  In warm weather, when doors and windows were open for ventilation, there was a partial sight-line into the former boys side, from one of the second-floor boys restrooms.  It hadn't been a problem, before!  But the girls, I was given to understand, had been warned and were strictly instructed to wrap their towels around their bodies, on the way to and and from the showers.  
 
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #4 on: Nov 26th, 2008, 11:24am »
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 Might be going a bit far calling some of the posters nut cases however some say at least they were overly traumatised or humiliated to the point of being bitter to all women years later. Awful big post and it would be impossible to go thru the whole thing but when doing random hits, clearly people with past problems do show up and they are bitter. On the other hand they could be making the whole anger thing up.
  As I was growing up, I nor my friends we allowed to make fun or humiliate anyone. Fat kids of both genders, some affected by polio, crooked teeth, bad complection, you name it. It was not allowed in school or at home. In my view only, must have been some serious situations for these views to fester over the years.  Looks like some were traumitised by mothers supposidely FORCING them to swim nude, others are mad as hell that females were able to see them nude while they remained clothed. Strange how some things can mark a person for life.  
 Guess I am fortunate that things worked out good for me as far as I know. For instance, some are addimant that they could never go nude as a youngster. After all the years growing up, how do they know if they never did it? I have a suspicion that a lot of negative views are just made up by someone trying to stir the pot.  LEO C
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easter_man_10
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #5 on: Nov 26th, 2008, 5:53pm »
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thank you Leo for your comments, I think like you that some persons are not credible when they say they were  really traumatized for life.
 
Even for a shy and modest  boy who did not like to be seen nude , it was in the past, since that time, he must have overcome his embarrassment.
 
More over, it seems that most of the time, the boys did not know that some girls tried to see them when they were naked  in the edge of the swimming pool, it was not a common situation and the girls were spying them too have a look.  
 
It is true that there was also some relations of mothers or sisters attending to the lessons while the boys were naked. But most of the time, the boys said that they were not embarrassed at that time.
 
It seems to me that it is above all young men who have not known themselves that situation who are incensed by the witnesses of women who said that they could peek at the boys by a hole in a door or something like that...
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #6 on: Nov 27th, 2008, 8:42am »
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There are also some accounts of boys in the school swimming teams competing naked in front of mixed spectators. They didn't mind because they were used to it.
Even while practicing in the nude there were often sisters and mums present.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #7 on: Nov 27th, 2008, 2:52pm »
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it seems that it was not a common rule in all the United States.
 
Some men said that they were never naked in presence of mixed spectators, only for school swim classes in front of their classmates and  male teachers, some others said that it could happen that mothers and sisters were attending to their swimm classes, particularly at the YMCA, or during  practice of swim with the team or for competition between different  school teams.
 
I think that they were all right, why some were lying? they had not lived the same situations because the rules  could be different in function of the schools and the towns.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #8 on: Nov 27th, 2008, 5:53pm »
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on Nov 27th, 2008, 2:52pm, easter_man_10 wrote:
it seems that it was not a common rule in all the United States.
 
Some men said that they were never naked in presence of mixed spectators, only for school swim classes in front of their classmates and  male teachers, some others said that it could happen that mothers and sisters were attending to their swimm classes, particularly at the YMCA, or during  practice of swim with the team or for competition between different  school teams.
 
I think that they were all right, why some were lying? they had not lived the same situations because the rules  could be different in function of the schools and the towns.  

 
They were not telling lies.  
It was a general practice that varied from place to place.
Nobody made that stuff up, which is why there are different stories by different persons.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #9 on: Jan 6th, 2009, 2:33pm »
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Also moving this up.  LEO C
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #10 on: Jan 7th, 2009, 1:44am »
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on Nov 23rd, 2008, 11:28am, Rodney wrote:

 
Very true, PC. A case in point was the old Harmon Gym at the University of California, built in the early 20th century and razed in the 1990s. When built, it was just assumed that the only people with any reason at all to be in the gym's basement would be men. Accordingly, no provisions whatever were made for modesty in the men's locker room.  Even when women began working or attending classes in the basement, it would have been prohibitively costly to remodel the locker room. So, in the decades before its demolition, females in the basement of the gym were treated to the daily dick show.
 
One of my earlier posts includes accounts from other web sites that discuss this in great detail, so if anyone's interested, check the archives.
 
And I agree with Leo. Most of the posters on the Boys Nude Swim Gym Class forum are nut cases.

 
So, Rod...a Berkeley guy.  I am a Berkeley alum and I remember Harmon well.  The showers were in the basement and we had to walk a long corridor from the lockers to the showers and back again.  Some guys would bring their girls down there and we'd pass them in the corridor.  They looked and had thier fill.  So what?
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #11 on: Jan 9th, 2009, 7:33am »
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Just some general comments:
 
I believe the stories about Minnesota & the Harmon Gym. As previously stated, I never experienced nude swimming, and certainly not where females were present. Long Island didn't offer those opportunities, even in the "old days" of the 1960's & 1970's.  
I would have been traumitized if forced into such a situation back then, and would have resisted it. Leo_C grew up in a different environment than I did, so he can not understand how most Long Island boys would have had serious reservations regarding girls, or women seeking them naked, in the pool, locker room, or even in a medical situation. OK, maybe with a female doctor, if necessary, but not with any contemporary girls being present!
For those guys who experienced nude swimming with female presence, or the Harmon Gym, my guess is that they would have been secure both during the CFNM encounters, and afterwards, when their female classmates saw them dressed. That, as I have stated many times, is a positive by- product of CFNM, learning to be open & secure with the female gender!
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #12 on: Oct 16th, 2009, 12:43pm »
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 Sometimes I go back to this site when I have nothing to do. Pretty interesting and makes you aware of peoples different hang up. Right now people are outraged that boys had to go TOPLESS in gym class. Whats going on in this world ? Few more are into their bare butts being spanked in public.  
  Click on to the post listed and go to the last entry and then do previous post from there. Some scary people there.  LEO C
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #13 on: Oct 16th, 2009, 5:04pm »
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Since I am 65 years old and lived through the 50's and 60's I will comment on this.  It is true that time changes, but the 50's especially were a lot more sexually repressive than now.  The last half of the 60's was called "the sexual revolution" but it did not refer to public nudity or cfnm.  It is also true that during the 50's we swam naked in school and in the Y but there were never girls present.  
 
I believe the stories about incident where girls looked through cracks in the door and where there were incidents of cfnm because of architectural deficiencies.  Isolated stories of boys swimming naked in front of girls might also be true especially at swimming holes.  However, stories where it was accepted institutional practice of having boys swim naked in front of girls or even mothers are extremely doubtful.  My mother would have been horrified if she had been allowed to witness boys swimming in the nude.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #14 on: Oct 16th, 2009, 11:16pm »
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It was common practice, in fact it was the rule, that all boys in Chicago Public Schools had to swim naked until title 9 took effect and made gym classes co-ed.  We did not think anything of it.  We were expected to be stark naked for the entire gym period, since we had to walk from our lockers to the showers bare assed, shower without getting towels, swim, and then only get a towel to dry off and then walk through the locker room naked again  There could have been girls present at any point in the process; I just don't remember that they were there.
We guys thought nothing of it because many of us had older brothers who had been to pre-induction physicals for the draft, and since we knew that they could take control of our bodies for two years and do anything they wanted to us, being naked in gym class was hardly a big deal.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #15 on: Oct 19th, 2009, 8:41am »
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May be I have said that before in an other discussion  on the same subject but I was a student in France in the last 50's and the first half of the 60's for middle school and high school, so it was the time where boys had to swim naked in some schools of your country and it  was not a rule applied by the school authorities or the ministry of education in France, I have never heard, nor read anything about boys swimming naked in swim class in schools, at least in state schools.
 
But I don't think that it was because the school authorities and adults in charge of the education of boys were concerned by our embarrassment to be naked, I think rather that it was not a rule because nobody had thought about it.
 
In other circumstances as undressing in a locker gym,  or for mandatory showers or for an  annual physicals, we could notice that our modesty was not really respected, so there was no reason for being more respectful in swim lessons
 
I am nearly sure that if some schools had applied the rule, it would have been accepted by parents, and also students,even if some were much reluctant to be naked in group for so a long time than a lesson of an hour,  because we were used to do what we were told to do.  Some PE teachers, the older ones,  would have certainly thought that it was good to learn to boys discipline and to obtain more obedience during the swim class and toughen them for the students of high schools who were considered as draftees-to-be.
 
But I doubt very much about the fact that a female PE teacher could have been hired to give us swim lessons because at that time as schools were not co-ed, we had only  male PE teachers, may be it could have occured accidentally for a substitute teacher in case of urgency if the school had no other choice. I that case, I am sure that it would have been a middle age female PE teacher, not a young one.  
 
I doubt also that some girls could havebeen able to have a look on usswimming naked  in the swim pool, even through cracks in the door or by a swimming pool  hole in a locker room.
 
I believe also that most of the mothers would have been horrified if they had learned that some girls had a look, not only the mothers of the boys but above all the mothers of the girls because it would have been considered as really scandalous and indecent.
 
Of course, as some of you said, it could have happened accidentally if a group of girls come too early in the swimming pool when boys had not finished their lesson or if the boys were late or if they had passed  boys walking naked through a corridor coming from the swimming pool to  to go to the locker room and it would have been unvolontarily by the teachers.
 
But it is only an assumption !
 
As regards the account of "Nakeddad", I think that it was rather strict in his school  because boys stayed a long time naked, not only for the swim class but walking in corridors before and after but when he said "there could have been gorls present at any point of the process", it was also an assumption because he had never seen a girl in  
fact, he would have remembered of their presence!
 
About talking with older brothers, it was useful to know what to expect in swim class, but you knew also about pre-induction physicals for the draft, so did it mean that your brothers were talking in families of their physicals in a  pre-induction center for the draft, did your father and mother or sister knew it in details, did they knew that they were forced to undress naked  in a large group and undergo a long examination in the nude because they had related it at their return at home?  
 
In France, it was also known that boys had to undergo a thorough physicals for draft at 18 age at that time.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #16 on: Oct 19th, 2009, 11:28am »
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I have read the referenced post at Topix and similar discussions at other web boards.  
 
This is the internet, where anybody can pose as any identity without authentication. Some of those boards attach the commenter's location to each post and you can clearly see where some posts come from the same person having a discussion with himself using different assumed screen names. I believe they are just trying to stir up crap or satisfy their own fantasies. You just have to read with a critical eye.
 
However, before the 1970s or 1980s America was a very different place. This was a patriarchal society, women and children were to do as they were told and be happy about it.
 
It was simply how things were done. It was expected of us and was in our mindset that you showered after exercising. Nobody considered skipping the shower or had modesty on their minds. Today gym class is becoming extinct as are showers, so kids today cannot believe that boys showered naked in gang showers, let alone swam naked in a public high school or YMCA pool.  
 
There are a few photos on the internet from Life Magazine and local newspapers that showed middle and high school boys happily splashing around in the pool in the altogether, so doubters can be shown the truth.
 
No women were seen in those photos, however. I believe some of those credible accounts about swimming naked in the past have been conflated with women viewing from the stands as an embellishment.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #17 on: Oct 19th, 2009, 3:28pm »
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on Nov 16th, 2008, 5:37pm, Rodney wrote:

[Post #2070] "At Roosevelt h.s. in the 60's we were swimming naked and due to scheduling problems we shared the pool on fridays with the girls class...this was in my senior year...no one really cared or saw it as sexual, we were more focused on our swimming and not embarrased by girls seeing us naked.

I was not alive during the 60s, but the idea that high school guys in any era did not find anything sexually provocative about this situation is uterly ridiculous. The only way to account for this would be that the male population was mostly gay, which is statistically unlikely. So I call BS. Maybe the author thought that by desexualizing the story it would seem less like wank material, but it achieves the opposite as far as I'm concerned.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #18 on: Oct 19th, 2009, 4:20pm »
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Well, I think the point is -- that if you weren't there, you simply do not understand.  
 
Exactly.  
 
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #19 on: Oct 19th, 2009, 4:37pm »
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on Oct 19th, 2009, 3:28pm, teasedsilly wrote:

I was not alive during the 60s, but the idea that high school guys in any era did not find anything sexually provocative about this situation is utterly ridiculous.

 
There is a difference between a situation being sexually provocative (intentionally) and participants being naturally aroused from time to time (accidentally).
 
Now, I suspect that you find it sexually provocative, but be careful about imputing your motives onto other people, especially when they were in a different situation in a different era.
 
I have been to men-only nude swims and to mixed sex nude swims. The ones that were set up just to swim nude were nothing more than that. The ones that were set up to be sexually provocative and playful most certainly were!  
 
It would be interesting to get into a time machine and go back to the 1950s to experience what went on back then. I'm sure it would be an eye-opener on many levels!
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #20 on: Oct 19th, 2009, 4:49pm »
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The situation I quoted from was not male-only. The author was speaking specifically about the boys' reaction to being seen nude by female students. Again, a teen not turned on by being seen naked by a girl? Only plausible explanation is he is gay or has developmental problems.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #21 on: Oct 19th, 2009, 5:15pm »
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Incidentally I recognize I'm in no position to say what the 50s and 60s were like. But I have noticed when it comes to fetishes that plenty of people try to pass off fiction for fact in order to feed the fantasy. And yes, times change, but there's a limit to what I will believe on the word of an anonymous person on the Internet, "you had to be there" notwithstanding. Smiley
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #22 on: Oct 19th, 2009, 6:19pm »
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Quote:
Incidentally I recognize I'm in no position to say what the 50s and 60s were like.
 
 
Right. Not to mention the 1940s. I have written several times on this board that I personally, the actual guy typing this note, took swimming lessons in the 1940s at Y's around Boston in which the boys swam nude and for at least two classes we had clothed women instructors. We were all 11 or under (I think). One woman was the mother of a boy I knew but who was not taking our class. She was probably in her late 30s at the time. The other was younger, in her 20s.
 
It was not discretionary to be nude. We were told to be and we obeyed. Same with the instructors. They were our instructors, they had authority and we accepted them as such. No questions, quibbling or bitching. It was just the way it was.  If anything we, the boys, had the idea that it was more manly to swim nude. And to not be bothered by the presence of non-family females. But overall we paid it little heed. It was just the way it was. Saturday afternoon was Hopalong Cassidy movies (for 13 cents!). Swimming was nude. The instructors/lifeguards were in charge.
 
I know I did not consider it particularly sexy, in fact not sexy at all that we were nude and these adult women were not.  I seriously doubt any of the other boys did either. Sex was barefly a factor back then, and women were not thought of as much liking sex anyway. Unless there was strong proof to the contrary (and we boys did not even know what  could be considered such proof), no one thought women could find nude boys in any way sexy. Not only that, but the younger of my two instructors, the woman in her 20s, wore sometimes a yellow bathing suit, a tank suit, that fit her very well and that I found attractive but even so I did not think of her as sexy, nor did I have a sexy crush on her. I realize that sounds odd, but it is true. For anyone who had no such experiences I can only say you should think about that fact if you are serious about trying to put your mind and understanding back in those times.
 
I have, as I said, written about these experiences elsewhere on this board. You can search on my name and find them if you wish.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #23 on: Oct 19th, 2009, 6:55pm »
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on Oct 19th, 2009, 6:19pm, Allan_C. wrote:

Sex was barefly a factor back then, and women were not thought of as much liking sex anyway. Unless there was strong proof to the contrary (and we boys did not even know what  could be considered such proof), no one thought women could find nude boys in any way sexy.

 
I made a similar point over in the nude art model thread. This is the way I was raised by parents who were older than the norm and held these beliefs.
 
It was only when I was an adult that I started to become aware that women could actually find nude men remotely interesting. That's when things got interesting for me.
 
But things really were different back then. I did not live those times, but I know this based on plenty of evidence both on and off the internet. It's not that far-fetched.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #24 on: Oct 19th, 2009, 10:13pm »
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I never experienced the nude high school swims with girls or women watching, but I sure did experience the nude boys swims in high school. I moved away from my home town and when I tell new friends they are shocked. Today when boys don't even shower in gym my experience is considered impossible and shocking. Move back in time another 20 years and who would I be to say boys CFNM swims didn't happen?
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #25 on: Oct 19th, 2009, 10:32pm »
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As regards the account of "Nakeddad", I think that it was rather strict in his school  because boys stayed a long time naked, not only for the swim class but walking in corridors before and after but when he said "there could have been gorls present at any point of the process", it was also an assumption because he had never seen a girl in  
fact, he would have remembered of their presence!
 
About talking with older brothers, it was useful to know what to expect in swim class, but you knew also about pre-induction physicals for the draft, so did it mean that your brothers were talking in families of their physicals in a  pre-induction center for the draft, did your father and mother or sister knew it in details, did they knew that they were forced to undress naked  in a large group and undergo a long examination in the nude because they had related it at their return at home?  
 
In answer to your question.  One, I never saw a girl anywhere around; they could have been, but as far as I know, they never were.
 
In answer to your question, who knew about the nude swimming; everybody!  It was absolutely common knowledge because EVERY CHICAGO PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOL MANDATED IT!  You couldn't miss it.  As for the pre-induction physical, everybody knew that too.  Lets face it, you were going to be in a position where they could take your body away from you for two years and possibly cause your death.  A little thing like being naked, and trust me, it would not be the last time you would be forced to be naked, was not a big deal.  You have to remember that men are the disposable sex; a little thing like keeping boys nude is not a big deal.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #26 on: Oct 20th, 2009, 1:47am »
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Hey guys, lighten up. Have no reason to lie to you. These things did occure in the 50s and are more than likely not embelishments. Swam at the Y and on occasions there would be mothers and their daughters present. No, not every time but sometimes. Thought nothing of it.  
 TEASEDSILLY, you said you were not alive in the 60s. That says it all. There was nothing gay about it. You were born to late.  
  Also cant imagine a mother being concerned that her son swam nude. You are certainally applying your own morals to things that happen in the past. Believe it or not, my father allowed me to drink some of his beer when I was under 10 yrs. old. I was allowed to drive the family car before I had a license, I actually made explosives when I was 15 and I swam nude in the lake on family vacations when I was 11 or 12 yrs. old, in front of female cousins no less. I feel sorry for you in a way.  LEO C
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #27 on: Oct 20th, 2009, 3:19am »
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on Oct 20th, 2009, 1:47am, leo_c wrote:
You are certainally applying your own morals to things that happened in the past. Believe it or not, my father allowed me to drink some of his beer when I was under 10 yrs. old. I was allowed to drive the family car before I had a license, I actually made explosives when I was 15 and I swam nude in the lake on family vacations when I was 11 or 12 yrs. old, in front of female cousins no less. I feel sorry for you in a way.  LEO C

 
I did some of those things too, and I turned out alright because my parents taught me what it means to be responsible for my actions.  
 
It seems that America is being told what to fear (namely EVERYTHING) by CNN, Fox News, and whoever else has a vested interest in getting people riled up. So many things are simply fabricated dangers, including just being naked.  
 
If you're a guy, then being naked means you are gay. If you're a girl, then being naked means there must be a "perv" around waiting to pounce on you. The list goes on and on. People are afraid of their shadows today.
 
It's enough to make you wish for the 1950s as crazy as that sounds. People should lighten up and enjoy life, especially if that means we can swim nude for the enjoyment of the ladies. You won't find me arguing about that!
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #28 on: Oct 20th, 2009, 4:20am »
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It is true that some postmen too young who have not lived at that time have some difficulties to admit that some situations were normal in the past even if today it seems very odd and would be impossible.
 
It was why "teasedsilly" is so skeptical about facts which are related by others who have lived at the time when they occured.
 
It was not only situations in schools which were different but also the way of thinking, the feelings, the social norms.
 
As I was a student in France in the 60's, I am sure that there was no sexual thinkings when adults women saw young boys naked and also the reverse.
 
It would be stupid to believe at least at that time that a boy of about 11 age or under could have sexual thinkings about an attractive  woman who was the instructor for swimming lessons, so I can believe that Allan C had female instructors because he and his classmates were considered only as young kids, it was not at all scandalous at that time, nobody was thinking that it could be bad from a moral point of view that  boys under 12 age could be naked in front of adults women. May be, it would not have been the same with older boys, but I am not sure of that because at that time, a boy under 16 age was always considered as a lad, a boy without any reason to be embarrassed if he was seen naked by women adults because he was not already a man and whom sight naked did not embarrass a woman, which was the most important.  
 
It is true also that showers after school PE lessons were mandatory at my time of being a student in the 60's and it was gang showers in open area, supervised by a PE teacher who was not at all a pervert man,  but it would be critisized today and boys would complain and refuse to take showers like that.  
 
So it is very difficult to judge  the facts of the past with the social norms of today.
 
As regard  the "Nakeddad" answer, I have understood  before that everybody in a town where it was applied in schools knew that the boys were naked in swimming lessons, it was obvious as it was obvious that many persons knew how physicals for draft  in the pre-induction center were less respectful of the modesty of the draftees-to-be , it was the same in France, every body knew that young men of over 18 age had to report naked in front of the draft board commission first and after in a pre-induction center  because there was some relations in newspapers or magazines. It was not a rumor but a fact.
 
Only a girl under 18 age who had no brothers, no male cousins, and did not read any newspapers or magazines and did not heard talkings about the military service could have been unaware of that.  
 
What has surprised me  was the fact that it seems to me when reading you that older brothers could have related easily and volontarily their physicals to their family and that it was by this relation and not by reading newspapers or magazines that you knew how physicals were organized and the state of undress of the drafteesduring the examination.
 
why I was surprised by that ? because it seems to me in my experience that generally, the young men fraftees-to-be did not like to relate to their family their physicals with details because it was a situation which was a little embarrassing or humiliating for them, it was more the parents, particularly the father,  who wanted to know and asked indiscreet questions to their sons if they did not refuse to answer.
 
But of course, it was known  by a lot of persons and you are right to say that it was not so a bid deal for a young man who had to give two years of his life to the army, others things were much more important in that case.
 
Nevertheless, for many boys, it was a bad day!
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #29 on: Oct 20th, 2009, 7:20am »
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on Oct 20th, 2009, 1:47am, leo_c wrote:
Hey guys, lighten up. Have no reason to lie to you. These things did occure in the 50s and are more than likely not embelishments. Swam at the Y and on occasions there would be mothers and their daughters present. No, not every time but sometimes. Thought nothing of it.  
 TEASEDSILLY, you said you were not alive in the 60s. That says it all. There was nothing gay about it. You were born to late.  
  Also cant imagine a mother being concerned that her son swam nude. You are certainally applying your own morals to things that happen in the past. Believe it or not, my father allowed me to drink some of his beer when I was under 10 yrs. old. I was allowed to drive the family car before I had a license, I actually made explosives when I was 15 and I swam nude in the lake on family vacations when I was 11 or 12 yrs. old, in front of female cousins no less. I feel sorry for you in a way.  LEO C      

 
Customs and ideas change over the decades. I get some satisfaction from knowing that guys who can't remember that era will one day find people not believing what things were like now.
 
The reality is that the 1960s and 70s reestablished the prudishness that generations of Americans had overcome. Those previous generations understood the need for self-control and for limiting certain behaviors to certain situations. The activism of those times sought to -- and largely succeeded in -- transferring control from individuals to impersonal bureaucracies. It may take a longer time to return to the earlier, more fun and safer system.
The US 50s have been smeared by political pundits because of the already declining racial segregation that they used to destroy the existing rules -- rules that made change and reform possible. In many ways the era was better than the present; in fact, it's mainly the technology today that is better.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #30 on: Oct 20th, 2009, 1:09pm »
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on Oct 20th, 2009, 7:20am, PC wrote:

 
Customs and ideas change over the decades. I get some satisfaction from knowing that guys who can't remember that era will one day find people not believing what things were like now.
 
...In many ways the era was better than the present; in fact, it's mainly the technology today that is better.

 
I hope we don't get too far off topic in this thread, becuase it is an interesting one.  
 
I will say that I read a review of a day spa in which an American women went into this spa in the USA modeled after the European ethic to relax and have a massage and facial treatment. She was aghast that there were NAKED PEOPLE in the sauna and wet areas! She said it totally ruined it for her. I guess she was in her late 20s.
 
Now I realize that she is female and has a different perspective than a male would, but it shows you a typical attitude that is expressed by teenagers and 20-somethings today, both male and female. This is one reason why they simply refuse to believe that boys swam nude before the 1980s. Mommy and daddy and the news and Mr. Politician and Details Magazine and Cosmo and Salon and YouTube viewer comments all tell them that this is deviant behavior. (You like that technology angle?)
 
And of course this fear seems to prevent them from allowing themselves to experience it so they can see that it's not the horrible crime against nature like they have been told. Self-fulfilling prohpecy?
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #31 on: Oct 20th, 2009, 2:34pm »
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on Oct 20th, 2009, 4:20am, easter_man_10 wrote:
It is true that some postmen too young who have not lived at that time have some difficulties to admit that some situations were normal in the past even if today it seems very odd and would be impossible.
 
It was why "teasedsilly" is so skeptical about facts which are related by others who have lived at the time when they occured.

I was addressing a specific story, not all stories. Not about male only nude swimming, but about a CFNM situation, and not about 11-12 year olds, but 17-18 year olds. What I have a problem with is the uncritical attitude some seem to have about stories told on the Internet. CFNM is not a support group theme, it is a fetish, which is a big motivator for people to embellish and outright lie about personal experiences for the sake of a story that fits that theme. So when I see something that seems funny, like a claim that a school had teen boys swimming nude in the company of girls, that evidently the school was fine with it, and that these hormonal boys did not view the situation in a sexual way, I treat it with suspicion. I'm not claiming that none of the stories are true; only that if people think the number of such stories floating around on various CFNM-themed sites and forums is an indication of what was normal practice during the 40s to 60s, they should examine that logic. As a rule I don't study history from Internet forums.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #32 on: Oct 20th, 2009, 5:14pm »
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Sorry "teasedsilly", may be I have written too fast my comment because I share some of your doubts about the presence of women, particularly young girls, sisters and friends of sisters, when the boys were not kids but teenagers in swimming lessons in the nude or swimming competition between schools teams of teenagers.
 
It is difficult for me to believe that the presence of young girls assisting to the swiming of teenagers boys in the nude could be normal situations with teenagers  over than 16 age and not only situations who happened accidentally in some circumstances without any intention of adults.
 
In my opinion, it is not only because it was embarrassing for boys because I am not sure that adult persons were  thinking to the modesty of boys with interest , it is rather because  adults persons could have thought that it was indecent to expose naked boys to the sight of girls. It was the  decency and the modesty of the girls which were important to protect.  
 
Your suspicion about some stories when they go too far in a CFNM situation is understandable and you are obviously right if you think that all stories posted in this forum are not true because this forum is not a historical site.  
 
Nevertheless, to know how people were living in the past, it is sometimes useful to read stories of persons who relate some parts of their life on various forums, not only books of history!    
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #33 on: Oct 20th, 2009, 11:21pm »
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on Oct 20th, 2009, 2:34pm, teasedsilly wrote:

I was addressing a specific story, not all stories. Not about male only nude swimming, but about a CFNM situation, and not about 11-12 year olds, but 17-18 year olds. What I have a problem with is the uncritical attitude some seem to have about stories told on the Internet. CFNM is not a support group theme, it is a fetish, which is a big motivator for people to embellish and outright lie about personal experiences for the sake of a story that fits that theme. So when I see something that seems funny, like a claim that a school had teen boys swimming nude in the company of girls, that evidently the school was fine with it, and that these hormonal boys did not view the situation in a sexual way, I treat it with suspicion. I'm not claiming that none of the stories are true; only that if people think the number of such stories floating around on various CFNM-themed sites and forums is an indication of what was normal practice during the 40s to 60s, they should examine that logic. As a rule I don't study history from Internet forums.

 
I think you are most likely correct in terms of many of the stories floating around the internet.  As I wrote, I never saw a female anywhere around us during the 40 minute period where we were kept stark naked.  There was, as is often the case in locker rooms, one way glass in the coaches offices and the coaches had girls who did their paperwork, so it was possible that girls were in there, but I never heard of such a thing happening.  Therefore, I do share your skepticism.  However, I was never a member of the swim team; I was a football/track guy, but I had buds who were swim teams guys who told me that they would often change suits in front of everybody who came to meets.  That meant girls and mothers. I know that these guys would have done it for shock value, they were like that, but I don't know if they were pulling my chain or not, but they said they did it.  I have met other men my age who swear that women and girls in the pool with them was common practice.  I don't know if I actually believe them, but they volunteered the information after I my story about my high school nude swimming.  Perhaps they were just "seeing my nude swimming and raising it"You with and there were girls present.  I don't know.  That is the trouble with any oral history that is long time remembered.
 
You have to remember that the male body was not considered sexual in those days.  I remember reading a book when I was a kid that had a scene in which a boy was changing in the living room and his sister was changing behind a screen.  He said to his mother, people can see me, and his mother replied, "You're a boy, who would want to look at you?"  That was the attitude of the day.  Nobody would look at a boy.  Looking at the sales of Playboy versus Playgirl, probably not much has changed.  It might also be one reason why finding women into cfnm is so rough.
 
As for being naked being sexual for boys; unless you have been in that kind of sausage fest, you do not know just how unsexual it actually is.  Fear is the biggest impotence producer in the world.  Even if there were girls all over the place, there is no way that anything would happen.  If anyone sported wood in that situation, they would immediately be considered, well the word used would in that day would not have been gay, it would have been far nastier, and that guy sporting the wood could consider his life hell for the rest of high school.  It just would not have happened even had there been hundreds of beautiful women and girls in the pool playing water polo with us.  
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #34 on: Oct 21st, 2009, 4:30am »
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" nakeddad" most of your comments seem to be interesting and right, even if sometimes my experience as a student living in France in the 50's or 60's was a little different of those of american persons, many facts and feelings were similar.  
 
As you said first about the presence of women or girls when boys were swimming naked in swimming pools for school lessons ( it was certainly different at least for the presence of mothers or aunts or even older sisters in the YMCA swimming pools which is more credible), there was some chances where a girl classmate could see  naked boys for example when coming in the coaches offices with one way glass  to do a work but you never heard that such a situation happened in your school, so it was only possible but may be never happened.
 
I am more convinced by such a statement to believe that a relation  was true.
 
Male teachers were certainly conscious of that risk and they certainly did not arouse such situations volontarily. I cannot believe that a coach, male or female, did leave girls come in the ofice and watch at boys as long as they wanted  by the glass. If a girl came in the office, the most likely is that  thre was a coach present and that she  had a logical reason to come and that she stayed a very short time and could have only a short glance by the glass towards the locker room where the boys were changing or undressing for showers, so it was not a big deal. I do not believe that a girl could come and stay alone in the coach office even if some rumors were spread about that.
 
I am less skeptical  for adults women as female PE teachers  or female clerks or even others teachers who could have a sight on boys undressed in the locker room or in swimming pools if it was not organised but happened accidentally.
 
And of course the situation was different  for a female school nurse because she could see the boys undressed in her job, so why not in locker rooms or shower rooms or swimming pools  if her presence was required for any reason such as injuries or some checking.
 
As regards boys of the  swim team of your school, it may be possible that they were changing suits in front of mothers or other women, even girls who came to meets; Why not, it was not the same that being naked in a swimming pool in front of them.  
It was like when a female reporter is coming today in a locker room to ask questions to sports men.  
 
One thing is obvious, we cannot believe to all oral stories even if they are sometimes interesting to add to books some real details about everyday  life in the past.  
 
I share your opinion that male body, particularly teenager male body had nothing of sexual.  
 
your story of the mother telling to the boys who complains because he is undressing in the living room  while his sister is doing it behind a screen "you are a boy, who would want to look at you" is very true, it was the  usual way of thinking  in the past,  it was something that young people cannot understand because they have not lived  in those days.
 
It is also why some stories ( real or made up) where boys or teenagers are naked in front of adults women ( nurse, mothers, aunts, older sisters or older cousins  and so on)  are so funny, in my point of view, it is because they are very much credible in the past and over all when  women are acting normally, not as pervert persons.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #35 on: Oct 21st, 2009, 7:06am »
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 Allow me to point something out. As far as I can remember there were not to many organized activities for males or females in the 50s. I remember little league baseball and the boys scouts and occasional Y swimming. In small towns the swimming was anywhere there was water, pond, streams, lake, especially anywhere there was a dam. This was all attended with out any adult supervision, we did not need it and rejected any attempts to have someone organize it. We swam nude and if people were offended they went elsewhere.  
  We walked or road our bikes. There was no such thing as a mother tearing us away from in front of a TV set and driving us to different organized activities. We even managed to put together our own baseball teams and play teams from other parts of town. Seems as youngsters today cant make a move on their own, have to be chased out of the house to play with others and have to be supervised. We are raising a bunch of pussies.  
  Not making this up, youngsters could actually get a hunting license and shoot REAL bullets. When was the last time you saw a boy with a shotgun, bow, fishing pole or animal traps? I know the subject on this thread has to do with school activites, so I am just jumping in, we never had a pool available. Also every boy had a LIONEL train set in the garage or cellar. Youngster dont know what that is today. Believe me things were different then and a boys swimming nude was quit common and not a sexual thing.  LEO C
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #36 on: Oct 21st, 2009, 7:16am »
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Here we go again.
It must be proof of the effectiveness of media that nobody below a certain age believes in situations that are well within living memory.
A problem is that we are dealing with individual memories of specific situations while history usually deals in generalizations.
If you don't believe it, just pretend it's fiction and enjoy it. You don't know everything and neither do your teachers and the people on TV.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #37 on: Oct 21st, 2009, 9:25am »
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on Oct 21st, 2009, 7:16am, PC wrote:
Here we go again.

 
OK. So enough of the "tastes great/less filling" debate.
 
Any real-life accounts to relate in this thread?
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #38 on: Oct 21st, 2009, 9:59am »
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on Oct 20th, 2009, 11:21pm, Nakeddad wrote:
You have to remember that the male body was not considered sexual in those days.  I remember reading a book when I was a kid that had a scene in which a boy was changing in the living room and his sister was changing behind a screen.  He said to his mother, people can see me, and his mother replied, "You're a boy, who would want to look at you?"  That was the attitude of the day.  Nobody would look at a boy.  Looking at the sales of Playboy versus Playgirl, probably not much has changed.  It might also be one reason why finding women into cfnm is so rough.

The book example is part of what I'm referring to. It was the attitude of the character (who seems like a pretty nasty character), and maybe even the author, but it is a far leap to say that this is evidence of a cultural attitude during the time it was written. There are different practices within any era, people with different beliefs. Yet I'm seeing that stories about these CFNM situations (some probably true, others not) are used as evidence of what was the norm. There's a danger in using anecdotal evidence, because often times it's the exception to the rule.
 
You mention the unpopularity of Playgirl, but only in comparison to Playboy. Men have always been more visually stimulated than women, but that doesn't mean the male form is or was regarded as non-sexual. And what of the lack of male nudity in film during that era when it was supposedly not a big deal? Why was the attitude claimed to be widely held in the general population not also widely reflected in entertainment mediums?
 
Back to the nude swimming, the only thing about this I find interesting is its seeming public nature. There is nothing special about men or women undressing or even being naked in the same company, given the appropriate context (like sports). That's true today, so I see nothing surprising about it being true in earlier time periods. What I do find surprising is the idea that men being naked in mixed company was also normal back in the 50s. If that's true, why did this change? That was a time known for being sexually repressive, and today the society is far more open about nudity. So why in this area did the culture become more modest rather than less? It doesn't make sense to me, and it's a big reason I find myself doubting the claims here about how representative these stories are.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #39 on: Oct 21st, 2009, 10:13am »
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Quote:
Also every boy had a LIONEL train set in the garage or cellar. Youngster dont know what that is today. Believe me things were different then and a boys swimming nude was quit common and not a sexual thing.  LEO C

 
Yeah, agree completely, but with one exception: American Flyer.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #40 on: Oct 21st, 2009, 10:51am »
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Quote:
What I do find surprising is the idea that men being naked in mixed company was also normal back in the 50s. If that's true, why did this change? That was a time known for being sexually repressive, and today the society is far more open about nudity. So why in this area did the culture become more modest rather than less? It doesn't make sense to me, and it's a big reason I find myself doubting the claims here about how representative these stories are.

 
For crissakes, we have been over this ten times. The reasons are that in public opinion: 1) male bodies were not considered sexy, especially by "good" women, and, 2) homosexuality was not recognized (it did not exist). Therefore back then boys, male adolescents and often times adult men could be nude in the presence of others.
 
What really changed was women. They "discovered" (a.k.a. "admitted to themselves") that they found naked men sexy, including, sometimes, male bodies and genitalia. It happened during the late 60s and 70s, and has been increasing ever since. Women's lib and all that, in part.  Note I am not saying human female nature changed. That is sociobiological bedrock. I am saying that public opinion changed which in turn changed what women (and men) henceforth believed to be true.  
 
Then public opinion changed about gays, about 1990 or so. Suddenly they were assumed to be everywhere, and that was all right (and now in all likelihood thought to be more widespread than they really are; liberation does that to people). So boys and young men have to be wary of that too => no more showering in large groups in school locker rooms. (In another generation that will pass when they realize that there are fewer gays than currently supposed.)
 
So that is all there was to it. Public opinion about "Reality" (with a capital "R") changed. About women's sexuality. And about the existence of gays.
 
I am 68 years old and I have lived through all of this. I saw many of those women in the late 1960s and 70s changing, right before my lascivious eyes. (Unless you lived through it, you cannot imagine how grateful men who grew up in the 1950s were to see those antiseptically asexual women and girls turn into penis-loving adventuresses in the 1970s.)  And what is even more extraordinary is that that portion of women who were slow to change back then, have now pretty much caught up with the rest of them. Women in their 50s and 60s sometimes, all of a sudden like cock!
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #41 on: Oct 21st, 2009, 12:26pm »
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I don’t see the problem with this story at all. Society’s views and values change all the time. I grew up in the eighties and nineties and a lot has changed since I went to school. There was no homosexual’s in school; at least they did not admit it. There was deviance to being a homosexual back then, now kids can be openly gay in school. That’s just one of the many ways society’s views have changed in just the last ten years.  I remember the shock of Madonna and how she openly talked about sex. Women are now very open about their sexuality and it’s not strange for a woman to talk about sex.
 
Not even a hundred years ago blacks were thought of as second class citizens!!! How much has society changed in the last sixty years?
 
 
Society changes its views and values all the time. Boy’s swimming naked in the sixties and earlier does not seem to strange to me, considering all of the other ridiculous things society has done in the past.  
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #42 on: Oct 21st, 2009, 5:35pm »
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Quote:
I have lived through all of this. I saw many of those women in the late 1960s and 70s changing, right before my lascivious eyes. (Unless you lived through it, you cannot imagine how grateful men who grew up in the 1950s were to see those antiseptically asexual women and girls turn into penis-loving adventuresses in the 1970s.)  

 
Yes, it was amazing. About 1960, when I was a teenager, women wore white, sculpted, wire reinforced bras that covered their boobs and made them all look conical. About 1970 boobs were bouncing about under thin tops, barely covered and not at all concealed.
Before that women had to wait for you to call them if they liked you and getting in the sack with them was usually a long drawn out, seemingly torturous process.
If you didn't see the change you'd think present conditions were eternal and couldn't appreciate the different customs and situations.
 
Now you have to look at old movies to see people constantly smoking, buildings and homes full of smoke, and ashtrays everywhere, even in doctors' offices. But that's how it was. No, it wasn't good for you, but it's the way it was and there were a bunch of subtle gestures with cigarettes and matches that went with it. I don't miss it, but I note the change.
 
Some things will change in the next couple of decades and those who find this all hard to believe will understand how it can be true.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #43 on: Oct 21st, 2009, 6:00pm »
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 TEASEDSILLY, short post. Men only swam nude at the Y that I remember. Nude public swimming stopped somewhere around 15 yrs. old  When I say public I am talking swimming holes, lakes and dams. Not open swimming pools or beaches.  LEO C
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #44 on: Oct 21st, 2009, 11:50pm »
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[quote author=Allan_C. link=board=stories;num=1226875037;start=0#43 date=10/21/09 at 10:51:41]
 
For crissakes, we have been over this ten times. The reasons are that in public opinion: 1) male bodies were not considered sexy, especially by "good" women, and, 2) homosexuality was not recognized (it did not exist). Therefore back then boys, male adolescents and often times adult men could be nude in the presence of others.
 
What really changed was women. They "discovered" (a.k.a. "admitted to themselves") that they found naked men sexy, including, sometimes, male bodies and genitalia. It happened during the late 60s and 70s, and has been increasing ever since. Women's lib and all that, in part.  Note I am not saying human female nature changed. That is sociobiological bedrock. I am saying that public opinion changed which in turn changed what women (and men) henceforth believed to be true.  
 
 
While I agree with a lot of what you are saying, in terms of gender relations and gender social constructions, only the superficials have changed.  Men in the 1950's through today are not considered sexual beings; they may constantly want sex, but they are the ones chasing, and women are the objects of beauty and desire.  Look at any of the very few films that have total male frontal nudity (and notice how few there actually are), the men are not placed there as objects of desire; they are objects of scorn or pathos.  The character in the Sarah Marshall movie, (I assume some of the women on line saw it, but I know I didn't and don't expect any of the other men did either) has the hero lose his towel in the opening scene.  He is there stark naked fully exposed for a long shot, but not because he is sexual, but because the nudity underlines his powerlessness, weakness and pathos.  Men are not viewed that way any more now than they were when I was a teen.  If men were treated as sex objects, if women considered our bodies to be worthy of desire, would any of us have as much trouble as we do finding women who are into CFNM?  We are all living proof that mens' bodies are still not consider sexual.
 
The nude swimming when I was in high school was a device to let us know that we were powerless, and to put us in our place.  It prepared us for the army, and for life in an industrial society where we would be cogs in the machine.  It was not sexual at all, and had girls looked at us, or had there been girls or women in the locker room or pool, it would have been simply another bit of humiliation to reinforce our lowly status.  
 
 
 
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #45 on: Oct 22nd, 2009, 12:20am »
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on Oct 21st, 2009, 9:59am, teasedsilly wrote:

The book example is part of what I'm referring to. It was the attitude of the character (who seems like a pretty nasty character), and maybe even the author, but it is a far leap to say that this is evidence of a cultural attitude during the time it was written. There are different practices within any era, people with different beliefs. Yet I'm seeing that stories about these CFNM situations (some probably true, others not) are used as evidence of what was the norm. There's a danger in using anecdotal evidence, because often times it's the exception to the rule.
 
You mention the unpopularity of Playgirl, but only in comparison to Playboy. Men have always been more visually stimulated than women, but that doesn't mean the male form is or was regarded as non-sexual. And what of the lack of male nudity in film during that era when it was supposedly not a big deal? Why was the attitude claimed to be widely held in the general population not also widely reflected in entertainment mediums?
 
Back to the nude swimming, the only thing about this I find interesting is its seeming public nature. There is nothing special about men or women undressing or even being naked in the same company, given the appropriate context (like sports). That's true today, so I see nothing surprising about it being true in earlier time periods. What I do find surprising is the idea that men being naked in mixed company was also normal back in the 50s. If that's true, why did this change? That was a time known for being sexually repressive, and today the society is far more open about nudity. So why in this area did the culture become more modest rather than less? It doesn't make sense to me, and it's a big reason I find myself doubting the claims here about how representative these stories are.

 
Just to be clear; the book was a memoir and the author was describing a scene with his mother. The reason I remember it so well is because it rang so totally true to my experience.  This should provide you with your answer to your question about why no male nudity in films then (or now), who would want to look at a nude man?  There is a small market (or non-existent since I think they went out of business) for playgirl, but there are countless mags. for men to look at naked women.  While you are correct, men are more visual than women, and there is an evolutionary push for men to think of women as a resource and to compete with other men for women, and that women choose their mates while men try to be chosen, and that this is done largely on the basis of the resources that a man can provide a women and her children, there is still a cultural piece to it as well.
 
We do not treat men as being sexual in terms of the male body is not seen as being an object of desire. This is cultural.  The naked man in the Classical World, in the Renaissance, and even in our American neo-Classical period was depicted as beautiful, sexual, and noble. If you want to look at men being depicted naked as both sexual and powerful, look at a statue of Apollo.  Perhaps there is a piece of art, photography, a scene in a movie that depicts a naked man that way, but I sure don't know it.  So, to make a long story short, in answer to your question, men could be naked with women present, because he was not a sexual being, she was not going to rape him, and in things like gym class, he was naked as part of a process to make him powerless.
 
As a culture, we are not less modest, schools are simply afraid of being sued by parents.  Naked rituals are being performed all over the place by football teams, fraternities, men's groups, etc., and again, their function is not sexual; it is social dominance.  Let the pledges know their places.  If the pledges are, and I know you won't believe this either, made to sing naked outside the sorority house, it is about humiliation not sex.  It is about reinforcing the hierarchy.  
 
When there are nude bike rides or nude races, any time that there is public nudity, the majority of the nude people have penises.  Women do come and watch, just as I am sure some women saw high school and college boys naked in the pool.  Here it is not about social dominance, it is the same kind of thing that my swim team buds were doing; the guys like to try to shock other folks by being naked.  Maybe gay men look at those events as being sexual, but we don't have throngs of women lining the route to get a look at the roots.  If they did, Hollywood would be making pictures featuring men as sex objects, but women don't think of men that way and they wouldn't go to see those movies.
 
You are absolutely correct about using anecdotal evidence; anecdotes do not make good science; however, when you get enough oral histories, you can start seeing patterns.  Then when you sit down with the primary source materials, like the book I was quoting, or even better yet something like The Man in the Grey Flannel Suit, or Kinsey's male and female sexuality books, you can actually put together what was going on in the culture.  Skepticism is a good thing, but if it just breeds a refusal to consider other arguments, and a refusal to do actual research if you still consider what you are reading bunk, then skepticism is no more scientific than blind faith.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #46 on: Oct 22nd, 2009, 3:33am »
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I agree with a lot of the  comments of "Nakeddad"  but not all .  
 
 When he give some  comments about nude swimming, I think that it is not totally true.
   
 He says :
 
"The nude swimming when I was in high school was a device to let us know that we were powerless, and to put us in our place.  It prepared us for the army, and for life in an industrial society where we would be cogs in the machine.  It was not sexual at all, and had girls looked at us, or had there been girls or women in the locker room or pool, it would have been simply another bit of humiliation to reinforce our lowly status"
 
I believe  that he is too much thinking that it was a  volontarily policy of the  authorities of school or state  to reinforce the lowly status of boys, I am not convinced of that.  
 
Of course, the rule which required that boys swam naked  could have been a way to obtain more obedience of boys in swimming pools  like when school physicals were practiced in the nude in group, the nakedness is obviously a mean to discipline young men and  the army knew that very well but  we must not forget that many postmen have declared that they enjoyed being naked in swimming pool after the first time of  embarrassment because they had a great feeling of freedom. In a certain way, some  assumed that they were advantaged by this rule on the opposite of girls who could never swim naked.
 
So you are wrong if you note only the humiliation, it was true for some boys, not for all.
 
As regards the preparation of the army, I am no more convinced because in that case, the rule would have been applied also in all the western european countries which had a mandatory military service and it was not at least in France;
And it was not because the army had less power than in America, because it had a great power on society, it was not because the army was more concerned by the modesty of the draftees-to-be because the physicals for the draft were always naked and organised without any concern for modesty or privacy, at least less than in the Unoited States since young men had to report in a large group all together naked in front of a dozen members of the draft board commission for more than an hour and most of the members were not doctors or officers but civil men, mayors and so on ..
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #47 on: Oct 22nd, 2009, 8:08am »
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NAKEDDAD, slow down a bit. There was never any control or humiliation with swimming nude. Maby in your case something went wrong and it left a bad impression. When we swam in the creek, pond, lake, it was our own decision, no one forced us.  
 When there were females around, none made any deragatory remarks or degarded us with the fact we were nude. They might have even enjoyed the situation and the boys did not care one way or the other. If they were offended, there were lots more places they could go.  It was not a requirement for us but our choice.  LEO C
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #48 on: Oct 22nd, 2009, 10:12am »
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on Oct 22nd, 2009, 12:20am, Nakeddad wrote:
You are absolutely correct about using anecdotal evidence; anecdotes do not make good science; however, when you get enough oral histories, you can start seeing patterns.  Then when you sit down with the primary source materials, like the book I was quoting, or even better yet something like The Man in the Grey Flannel Suit, or Kinsey's male and female sexuality books, you can actually put together what was going on in the culture.  Skepticism is a good thing, but if it just breeds a refusal to consider other arguments, and a refusal to do actual research if you still consider what you are reading bunk, then skepticism is no more scientific than blind faith.

I think there's a couple issues, but as people seem to be getting anxious to stop debating this I'll leave it at this. The first is that my skepticism is targeted particularly at the claims of the normalcy of CFNM, so there is some talking past each other going on in the thread. And secondly I agree that a refusal to research would be like blind faith, but my focus has been the credibility of Internet stories. If there are better sources on nude men in the company of clothed women in the 50s and 60s they have not been discussed here. My attitude could be described as skeptical, but what this also means is I am not trying to argue about the way things actually were. I'm voicing problems I have with credibility and integrating the claims with common knowledge about the era. No I don't want to read books on the subject, believe me I have plenty on my plate now without more to read on only a casual interest. But if you or anyone else would like to share what you've read on the subject (maybe in another thread) I'd find that fascinating. Short of that I think threads like this are best read as entertaining stories.
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Re: Boys Nude Swim Gym Class
« Reply #49 on: Oct 22nd, 2009, 6:54pm »
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on Oct 22nd, 2009, 8:08am, leo_c wrote:
NAKEDDAD, slow down a bit. There was never any control or humiliation with swimming nude. Maby in your case something went wrong and it left a bad impression. When we swam in the creek, pond, lake, it was our own decision, no one forced us.  
 When there were females around, none made any deragatory remarks or degarded us with the fact we were nude. They might have even enjoyed the situation and the boys did not care one way or the other. If they were offended, there were lots more places they could go.  It was not a requirement for us but our choice.  LEO C

 
Sorry again about not being clear.  The humiliation was only in regard to those young men who are forced into nudity.  You guys, like the naked bike riders, or the streakers, or any of the hundreds of groups that do nude events are not doing so for the purpose of humiliation.  That now only remains for groups like fraternities, football or rugby teams, etc. where nudity is a part of the process of teaching the boys their place.
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