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   Girl watches boy's nude swim class
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Zappedfan
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Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« on: Apr 14th, 2008, 1:23pm »
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http://www.topix.com/forum/education/TID0DQ0GJR34GB55G/p23  
Boys nude swim gym class
tami
Livonia, MI  
#453  
Saturday
It didn't seem like that big a deal at the time. We were never told not to look. There was an equipment room attached to the girls locker room with a window facing the pool. As long as the light was off in the room, the boys couldn't see us. The girls gym coach knew what we were doing and never said a word. She just pretended she didn't see us if she walked by.
 
The boys didn't know we were watching, and they didn't seem humiliated amongst each other. If they asked us about it then or even now we would say something like "what? the boys swam naked?"
 
tami
Livonia, MI  
|#455  
Yesterday
 
You don't like it that when we watched the boys, we had all the power, right barney? What could be more inferior than having to walk naked in front of your female classmates? And you're correct. For a brief moment we were superior. They walked right in front of that window. We knew they had no choice and couldn't do anything about it. Getting mad?
But rest easy, barney, that's not what most females want. We want equality.
 
You want my perspective as a female? Well from my perspective the boys were never more well behaved than when they were naked. Getting mad barney?
There was no pushing, fighting or arguing when the boys were naked. I couldn't hear what was going on but looked like the naked guys did exactly what they were told.
 
And they always came out of the water smaller than when they went in. Ooooh I bet that made you angry.
 
Well good luck. I won't tell you to get over it because I don't think you want to.
Barney_Springbor o
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|#456  
22 hrs ago
 
Tami's voyeurism apparently went far beyond the "peeking" she originally described it as. She watched the boys walking by the window, getting into the water, getting out of the water and obediently following instructions. Obviously she was watching during the entire class. Which means she was either allowed to cut her own gym class for this purpose or, if she cut another class, study hall or lunch period, she made a special trip to the girl's locker room for the sole purpose of hiding in the darkened equipment room and watching naked boys for every minute possible.
 
That's not "peeking".
That's stalking.
 
Tami and I have different ideas of what is or is not creepy. Stalking is pretty high on my list of creepy things to do. Suggesting that somebody apologise for doing something wrong isn't quite as creepy as stalking.
frank
United States  
|#464  
2 hrs ago
 
Many schools in the detroit, mi area kept the debocle going right up to the 80's
 
Barney:
Princess tami owned you on her last post. She was exagerating to yank your chain and it worked. Like most women, she found the soft spot and stuck the dagger with expert precision.
 
tami;
you're wrong the boys knew the girls were watching. sometims we could hear them.
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #1 on: Apr 14th, 2008, 1:42pm »
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I think this thread has been posted here before, but it is still active and worth looking at from time to time.  Two women posted that they were sneaking looks.  Both were relatively obnoxious, but not as obnoxious as some of the heat they took.
Most striking to me was the fact that one states her PE teachers were aware of it and did not try to stop it.  Just confirms the huge double standard in those days of male vs female nudity.
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #2 on: Apr 15th, 2008, 10:10pm »
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Over time we have seen many of these type of BBS board and forum postings, stories, etc.   All are authored by the one posting, with no real verification.
 
On this forum, I have read some interesting stories as well.  Many are highly believable, some are plausible, and some appear to be a total CFNM fantasy by the one writing it as though it is real.
 
A while back someone posted an incredibly large zipped fill with hundreds of news articles involving young boys at the Y or local high school swimming nude.   It was incredible research, and I read probably a hundred news articles on the subject.  With exception of a few very rare occasions, there has never any hint that female presence during these swim classes or meets ever occurred.  There was a couple of instances where families were invited to watch a swim meet, but, they sort of implied that on those rare occasions the boys did indeed wear suits (but it was unclear).
 
I truly believe that those days were no different than today insofar as young female access to an area where the boys are nude.  In the same way it would be inappropriate for a young female to walk into the boys locker room while they were showering, so it would have been the same for them to enter the pool area when all faculty was fully aware of the situation.  True, the design of the facilities, type of doorways or lax adult oversight may have allowed a glimpse every once in a while, but in general, I do not believe it occurred in any frequent way.  I say this because I have never seen any verifiable proof outside of forum "stories", and all the articles and documented situations seem to imply only the opposite.
 
Thus, I take all these stories with a grain of salt.  Yes, they may be true, but they may also be completely contrived by some guy that has a CFNM fantasy about such youthful encounters.  And even the follow up posts in that thread may not be who they say they are.
 
The jury is still out, and anonymous chat forums really don't hold any verifiable truth as to what really happened and should be met with at least some skepticism, and as I read them, I only think of them as fun fantasies.
 
 
 
 
 
« Last Edit: Apr 15th, 2008, 10:17pm by Brad » IP Logged
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #3 on: Apr 15th, 2008, 11:44pm »
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on Apr 15th, 2008, 10:10pm, Brad wrote:

Thus, I take all these stories with a grain of salt.  Yes, they may be true, but they may also be completely contrived by some guy that has a CFNM fantasy about such youthful encounters.  And even the follow up posts in that thread may not be who they say they are.
 
The jury is still out, and anonymous chat forums really don't hold any verifiable truth as to what really happened and should be met with at least some skepticism, and as I read them, I only think of them as fun fantasies.

 
Certainly there is no proof that these stories are true.  But I don't think you could expect stories of girls peeping at boys  would have ever made the newspapers in those days.  That would not have been proper news and the school would never have reported it.  Indeed gross sexual assaults didn't make the news much in those days either.  The two 'women' posters sounded very plausible until they got angrily challenged at which point the discussion deteriorated.  The stories could have been fantasies or just guys trying to start a ruckus, but I still tend to believe them.  The only part of the story I find doubtful is the implication that this went on for years and no boys ever found out.  Surely some girl would have confided to her boyfriend at some point.
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #4 on: Apr 27th, 2008, 4:08pm »
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I never saw it in person, but friends of mine would go to a downtown Y in the 70's and they talked about girls coming in the pool just to look t the naked men.  Some swam naked, but it was not mandatory so some woresuits.
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Allan_C.
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #5 on: Apr 28th, 2008, 5:23am »
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Well, I have posted several times on this board that I took swimming lessons nude at the Y right after WW2. At least two of the instructor/lifeguards were women who wore suits. I stand by what I said: it really happened that way. Do a search on my name and go back through my posts and you will find them.
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #6 on: Apr 28th, 2008, 10:41am »
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what was your age at the time of these swimming lessons in your birthday suit with two female instructors and what what their age?
it seemed very odd!
 
I could understand that at this time, nudity of boys  was required for swimming lessons, it was an application of the double standard because girls could wear bathsuits, but I knew that modesty of boys together was not a big deal  as we could see after when they were young men for the physical exams for draftees,
 but the presence in the pool of two females not incidently but deliberately, and  who were charged to do lessons and may be to call the roll  of the boys is more surprising and shocking for me.
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Allan_C.
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #7 on: Apr 28th, 2008, 1:26pm »
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Do a search on my name for more details. (I  don't mean to be impolite, but I have posted this about 3 or 4 times now, and I am tired of doing it.) I was between 6 or 7 and 12, 13. One woman was the mother of a boy I knew but not in the class. The other was younger, in her twenties, and wore a yellow bathing suit.
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #8 on: Apr 28th, 2008, 7:13pm »
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Quote:
About 15 or 20 years ago I knew a woman, at the time an elementary school principal, who told me that while a college student circa 1970, she taught swimming at the Y to naked boys. Mostly to little boys but on occasion she taught teenage boys, not a whole lot younger than she, as well.

 
I can only guess that to some people this just sounds too good to be true. Or to have been true.
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #9 on: Apr 28th, 2008, 8:40pm »
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Rodney,
 
Yes, I did publish some notes in the past as NELad, though not on this board. I abandoned that moniker when someone or several someones began appropriating it on other boards. Everything I have published on this board, and only under "Allan C.", is completely honest and accurate and not made up (except for one or two notes wherein I did mention I was elaborating) insofar as I can make it.
 
And thanks for your agreement and for reporting your conversation with the woman who had taught swimming herself. I guess I can understand skepticism from guys, or women, under the age of say, 35 or 40. But people older than that should be sufficiently acquainted with gender mores of the 1940s, 50s and 60s to realize the plausibility of my and others' experiences.
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #10 on: Apr 28th, 2008, 8:53pm »
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on Apr 28th, 2008, 8:40pm, Allan_C. wrote:

 
And thanks for your agreement and for reporting your conversation with the woman who had taught swimming herself. I guess I can understand skepticism from guys, or women, under the age of say, 35 or 40. But people older than that should be sufficiently acquainted with gender mores of the 1940s, 50s and 60s to realize the plausibility of my and others' experiences.

 
Allan_C, I am your age or near it, and I believe your posts.  But was it plausible in my experience? Absolutely not.  I swam nude in high school and Y's (in the Midwest and New England) for maybe 10 years total, and never saw a woman anywhere near us.
I believe your stories did happen in a few places but they were relatively rare.  I did post somewhere that apparently one female contestant on the 50's TV show, What's My Line, claimed to be a lifeguard at a Y.  Presumably they checked out her story.  But the fact that it was a subject for the show proves just how uncommon it must have been.
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #11 on: Apr 28th, 2008, 9:42pm »
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on Apr 28th, 2008, 9:10pm, Rodney wrote:

 
CD, the difference is that she was a lifeguard, supposedly working while adult men were swimming nude. And yes if that happened, it was VERY rare, as no "decent" woman would want to be among naked men. What Allan C and I are talking about is adult women giving swimming lessons to naked BOYS. That, as I wrote above, was within the cultural norm for the time, albeit the exception and not the rule.

 
Good point Rodney.  Yes it would have been acceptable for an adult women to be around nude boys, but usually only preschoolers or so.  Certainly not by the time they were preadolescent.  I have no personal experience before high school.
I have however heard other plausible stories of women serving as lifeguards at Y's.  Presumably the guys were older, at least 13-18.  I think most of this was post WW2, when men on the home front were still in short supply.
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #12 on: Apr 28th, 2008, 10:38pm »
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Re plausibility of posts about male nude/female (instructor or spectators) clothed swim classes:
 
I think they're mostly bunkum, but probably not (quite) all.  In particular, I'm inclined to give some credence to reports from the upper Midwest of the US, Minnesota and the Dakotas in particular, with a few from Iowa.  To see why, it helps to read an article in The Economist.   Here it is:  
http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10283290
 
Basically, the argument is that where the sex ratio differs markedly from unity, there obtains a buyer's market for the scarcer gender.  Particularly in parts of these states which were settled late and never became very densely populated, there may have been a holdover from early days when the area was colonized mainly by a few hardy frontiersmen.  These virile souls would then have had to compete for what few women there were.  Add to that the fact that this area was largely settled by Scandinavians and Finns (saunas and all that), and one can see how a cultural norm may have arisen wherein boys were encouraged to accustom themselves to the fact that girls, as a matter of decency, were entitled to more privacy.  
So why not, say, Arizona, which was mentioned  in the article as having a particularly high m/f ratio in the early 20th century? Because Arizona is more urbanized, as is Colorado.  Wyoming has scarcely enough people to merit a Y, and few of them probably bother to learn swimming, but one might note that it was the first American state to grant women the vote.  Utah and Nevada are exceptions to every rule.
 
And then there are those grainy photographs from the 50s to early 60s, which look hard to fake.
 
But a lot of these accounts are second- or third-hand, and are probably bogus- not to name any names; I've been cautioned about flaming Smiley
 
Btw, this idea also goes partway to explain the observation that for much of the 20th century, Europe, which had two nasty wars, was somewhat more sexually liberal than the U.S.  
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #13 on: Apr 28th, 2008, 10:46pm »
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on Apr 15th, 2008, 11:44pm, cd wrote:

 
Certainly there is no proof that these stories are true.  But I don't think you could expect stories of girls peeping at boys  would have ever made the newspapers in those days.  That would not have been proper news and the school would never have reported it.  

 
cd,
 
You missed the whole point.  Please re-read what I wrote.  Nobody is saying girls never peeked into the boys locker room or swimming areas.  In fact, I posted actual stories written by older women of the days when boys swam nude and they peeked through the doors.   And I've been fortunate enough to have sneaked a peek into a girl's changing room!  Shocked
 
But you equate a girl sneaking an unauthorized peek into the boys area as being the exact same thing as the doors being thrown open and females invited in to watch the swim meets as the boys swam nude - they aren't the same and it's a *big* difference.  
 
 
The other comparison that folks make is when they indicate they knew of swimming holes or lakes where the boys went skinny dipping and girls would come by.   Well, I can honestly state that that is still going on...big time...about 30 minutes from where I live on a nude beach.  The point is that it is *not* an institutionalized gathering whereby males are mandated to participate in a group activity completely nude while clothed females are allowed to watch.   Again, a VERY different thing.  That's one of the challenges with a lot of threads like this is that many people can't see how they are so very different things.
 
 
 
Allen_C,
 
Please note I'm not saying I disbelieve you, nor am I addressing your posts specifically.  What you say is very plausible, and I have never seen you post something that is so far out that it would lead to a credibility thing.  And thanks for being such a great contributor in here.
 
I can understand that back in the day, swim classes for preschool to kindergarten aged boys could easily have been supervised by females without much ado about it.  If they were older adolescent aged boys, then I'd have to think it was a very rare thing.  Some boys have already grown pubic hair by the time they become teen agers.  I knew one boy that was easily five and a half feet feet tall and fully developed down under when he was 13.   If there were females that were allowed to be around nude children of that age, please feel free to post away.
« Last Edit: Apr 28th, 2008, 10:56pm by Brad » IP Logged
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #14 on: Apr 29th, 2008, 10:09am »
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To Allen. C and other postmen  
 
I will read your former posts as soon as possible.
I have already read many posts on that item in other boards, particularly in "boys swim nude gym class" in forum education.
 
most of the postmen said that they had naked swimm lessons in the fifties, the sixties and sometimes the early seventies, but it was very seldom they said they had female teachers.
 
it seemed to me it was seldom but possible in a few place in the YMCA centers as you said there were female lifeguards and there might be also some female teachers.
 
But there is also a question of age : you said you had less than 12-13 age, I believe it is possible because at that time, a boy of that age was still considered as a child, even if he had a beguinning of pubic hair, it was not really embarrassing because it was normal at that time that a boy of that age was no modest, but I am more skeptical about boys older, of 15 age, or even 16-17 age, the last years of the high school.
 
May be a  female lifeguard could have been standing  around the pooll  to supervise all and she could have seen the teenagers naked, but do you really think a female could have been in charge of swimming lessons with teenagers of 15-17 age?
 
At least, she might have been a middle aged woman of the age of their mother, certainly not a younger, who was a few years only older than the boys.
 
An other question is the presence of female teachers for swimming lessons in schools.
I am even more skeptical about that than in a YMCA center for teenagers of 15-17 age, except for boys of elementary schools. In the high schools, it was not credible even in that time.
 
The only case I believe to be true was when a female teacher was a substitute of a male teacher for one lesson or even more for several lessons or months.
But it might have been very seldom and it had certainly not occured  in all the schools. For old teenagers, I am not sure all the parents had agreed with that solution.
 
Last is the question of girls peeking  into the boys looker room or even the swimming pool through a hole or through the opened door.
 
I think it was possible because girls were normally curious of the boy's anatomy and if they had the possibility to peek, they certainly do it, and nobody tried to prevent them to do.
I believe also it was true because I knew that the male teachers were not  concerned at all by protecting modesty of their male students.
 
Fora male teacher, the view of naked boys in showers, in locker rooms, in swimming lessons or in physical exams was something common, he was not a pervert  man ( some could be but certainly not all ) but he had the same way of  thinking as military men : why a boy would be modest, it would be stupid, he had not to be modest if he wanted to become one day a real man, in high school, he was not still, he was only a boy who needed to be toughen  
 
So, most of the time,  if a female nurse, a female secretary, a female teacher or an other woman could see the boys naked because he left a door opened or for other reason, it did not matter for him.
If boys were embarassed, he thought it was because they were too immature and it was good to toughen them.
 
I have read in a post of a male doctor who had provided a lot of physical exams for sports that generally, boys were undressed in underpants in the locker room and it was perfectly convenient for him, but it occurred sometimes that the coach instructed the boys to line up naked in group in the corridor or the locker room, even if  the doctor had not asked for that.
It was a decision of the coach who wanted  the boys were in the buff together to wait their turn like draftees in a pre-induction center ! He should be thinking it was more manly.  
 .
 
« Last Edit: Apr 29th, 2008, 4:50pm by easter_man_10 » IP Logged
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #15 on: Apr 29th, 2008, 12:07pm »
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Just a comment, I have related before so I will not go into details. At the age of 13 when I was in the 8 th. grade, on one occasion there were mothers and sisters sitting in the bleachers at the Y pool. They were observing what was supposed to be our swimming lessons which were in fact nothing more than pool recreation.  
 The 4 or so boys who were aware that this was scheduled did in fact wear suits as well as the instructor. The rest of us swam nude and thought nothing of it. Event lasted no more than 2 hrs. if I remember correctly. Were also occasions where one of the women Y staff members would come to the pool area. We never gave it a thought. This was in 1958, long time ago now.
 One more comment, I was never aware of there being a thing such as swimming or diving competition, let alone compete myself. Is quite possible that some pratice or events were conducted nude. Was a long time ago and nudity was not an issue as it is today, especially when it came to swimming.  leo c.
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #16 on: Apr 29th, 2008, 4:26pm »
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And so this scab must be picked again.
 
It happened. The practice tapered off by the 70s. It was normal behavior.
I didn't do it because I had asthma too bad to take part in anything athletic but boys I knew did, circa 1955.
 
I just don't understand all the careful reasoning and denial and research. (Well, the research could be fun.) People alive today did it or saw it.
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #17 on: Apr 29th, 2008, 5:12pm »
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To Allen C.
 
I understand you do not want to give again details about your swimming lessons because I have read your former posts and it is true you had several times described the situation and gave all details on the presence of female teachers.
 
After reading your post, I believe all was true but as you said you had only 12-13 age at the end of this experience. And it was an other time where people did not think like today.
 
I understood  the nudity for boys was not an issue because they used to be naked in some circumstances and modesty was not the same as today.
 
This good time is finished. I cannot imagine today a sister of a boy of 12 or 13 age, more younger or a little more older, watching to  him swimming naked in a pool. The police will immediately come to stop that " scandalous" situation ! Even his mother if she could be here to observe the progress of her son  did not agree with the presence of her daughter.  
 
I am not sure it is better for boys today but it is not possible to come back in the sixties.  
 
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #18 on: May 4th, 2008, 7:53pm »
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I have no problem believing Allan.
I also knew  a woman in college (this would have been 1973) who had spent the summer at a YMCA somewhere in Indiana as  lifeguard and swim instructor where the boys and men were nude.
When she told us this, we didn't believe her; we thought she was exaggerating, but she maintained birthday suits were mandatory they all wore them.
She also said the experience left her "terminally horny," as she put it.
I can't help but wonder if there isn't another "generation gap" at work here.  I'm only slightly younger than Allan, and like every other male in that age group, swam nude in high school. It seems a split decision on the merits of this--some liked it, some didn't. I didn't.  But no one denies it happened.
The CFNM swim seems preposterous, but only in the modern world.   A long list of female sexual "predators," for lack of a better term, has eliminated what was once accepted without question, that women were sexually harmless and could be trusted with young, even naked, boys.  The boys' nudity didn't matter since no one seemed to care what we thought.
Now, with the new prudery, paranoia over homosexuals, and sensitivity to pedophilia heightened to absurd levels, that seems impossible.  Trust me. It wasn't.  
Why, do you realize there was a time when we used to communicate with each other by making hard copy, folding it, putting in an envelope, affixing something called a stamp to it, putting it in a box called a mail box, and waited for days and days before the recipient even received it.!!
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #19 on: May 5th, 2008, 4:19pm »
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You can see how all the stuff about these people's rights and those people's rights resulted in fewer rights. People can go to family nudist resorts and their right to do so is legally protected but if a neighbor thinks you've taken nude pictures of your kids you can be thrown in jail. This is "liberation" and "protecting rights".
 
People once had an understanding and knew the few rules they had -- sometimes complicated, but not rigid. The only improvement has been the birth contrl pill. Watching out for the rights of every sick idiot who's claimed to be oppressed and freeing everyone from something has resulted in repression and paranoia...
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #20 on: Sep 18th, 2008, 5:23am »
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for those who are interested by this subject or skeptical about the possiblity for girls to look at the naked boys having a swimming class in a pool by a window or any other special hole in a partition or a wall, you can report to the thread" boys nude gym swimm class" on the forum "education"  quoted at the start of this subject and which is following until now and is always very lively.
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #21 on: Sep 21st, 2008, 11:28pm »
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There is certainly something about this topic that is permanently CFMN fascinating (it comes up again and again). I swam nude with all my classmates in high school gym class in Buffalo NY and certainly girls did not. No females were present (as far as I know). Anyway, true or not the fascination will never end.
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #22 on: Sep 22nd, 2008, 7:39am »
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It seemed the rules were not always the same, and that sometimes, in some schools, mothers or sisters or their friends were allowed to  watch  at a swimming lesson or a practice when boys were naked while sitting on the bleachers.
 
 I don't know if it can be true but there are many assessments about that situation where women or girls were present.
 
But may be it was only for young boys under 12 age, I am more skeptical about boys over 12 age.
 
It seemed also that the presence of a female teacher to give swimming lessons was not totally excluded, even for teenagers, not only for little boys.
 
And there was the subject of the debate : was it possible for a girl classmate to spy the boys  or to peek by a hole in a wall or a door which was not well closed, or by a window without a curtain, while boys or teenagers had their lesson in the pool?
 
« Last Edit: Sep 22nd, 2008, 2:21pm by easter_man_10 » IP Logged
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #23 on: Sep 22nd, 2008, 12:01pm »
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I've given this some thought since the last go-round: why can't people of today accept what several of us who were there are telling them? (Or have great difficulty accepting it.)  Sorry this is so long, but if you are interested in this "why", please bear with me.
 
The first point is that social and sexual mores were very different in the 1940s and 1950s. Women were asexual.
 
I was born in 1941, before WW2 (for America at least). I can remember "blackouts" during that war, the practice of shutting off street lights and all public lights, and installing and using full window shades so even the living room lamp was not visible in the street. Wardens used to walk the streets and rap on the doors of anyone with a light showing. All this to make sure the German U-Boats did not use that light to identify Boston from the ocean.  
 
More to the point, women and girls were modest, chaste and asexual, at least as far as society admitted. They had duties of raising kids and they had privileges and privileged assumptions of all sorts, but they did not have sex. Or very much sex. Or very much admitted sex. And certainly not out of marriage. And even in marriage it was assumed they were somehow doing men a favor. Men had to be subservient to them, to give them all manner of things and all sorts of priorities, just to get a little sex (and keep them in their place).  These mores continued throughout the 1940s and 1950s, when I was growing up. Women who strayed from the asexual ideal were castigated but those who did not were venerated. It was a very odd way to think of things, in retrospect, but it was indeed how society viewed the matter.
 
In the early 60s I was just out of college and I could detect then the first groundswells of social change that resulted in "The Sixties", that exuberant expression of sexual and social explosions that really occurred between 1964-5 and ended about 1972-3. All of a sudden women were sexual too! Boy, was that ever a great discovery. (And the Pill made pregnancy easily avoidable.)  Life itself was young and the young should live it now, by how they felt! (Propelled by the death tragedies of JFK, RFK, Martin Luther King and all those in peril of the Vietnam War.) The old order was being overthrown, and the new order remains in effect until today. Unless you have experienced it, I am not sure one can comprehend how profound this change was. (The musical, artistic and political exuberances of the 1960s are the main reminders -- compare Glenn Miller to The Rolling Stones.) But in the 1940s and 1950s things were much more conservative socially and especially sexually for women, and men alilke. *
 
Couple that with the shortages of WW2.
 
There were very few adult men around. There was a big war going on that was effecting everyone. There were women and mothers with kids, and there were pools at the Y for swimming, but sometimes, often, there was a shortage of male swim instructors and lifeguards. I was 5 years old in 1946, the war a few months over. Cars still had little gas (ours was up on blocks for the entire war) and most people either walked or took the trolley. It would be another year or two before we had the gas to go to my grandfather's beach house on the ocean and I could practice my swimming. So my mother took me to the Y to learn how to swim. The YMCA where all the boys swam nude. And I did so over the next several years.** During that period at least once we had a woman who wore a suit as an instructor. She was known to us, or to me at least, as the mother of a boy I knew, but who was not in that specific class. I should note here that my mother knew that I would swim nude and said it was all right. And she also knew that some of the instructors were women. She knew some of them. She told me this. While it is conceivable to me that she took me to the Y during the war, say in 1945 when I was four, I cannot in truth remember that. My mother was an avid and excellent swimmer, having grown up next to the ocean, and wanted her children to learn to swim as soon as possible. So perhaps she did bring me into some sort of minnows class as early as age four. But by age five I was swimming at the Y, and continued off and on for several years afterwards, into my early teens.
 
In any case, women were doing everything men did during WW2. Rosie the riveter, etc. And one thing was looking after kids, boys, who swam at the Y. They swam in the nude, and what difference did it make? They were kids and boys to boot, and it was the long accepted tradition that males swam nude at the Y. But women didn't. No way. So they wore suits. And this practice got established during the war, and continued off and on for several years afterwards.
 
There was no urgency to change it, because after all women were asexual
 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 
*As a worthy aside, let me tell you a bit about other social beliefs that have changed radically since then. I am 100% New England WASP in background. All, and I mean all, of my forbears for a couple of generations were liberal New England Republicans, the type who advocated for the Civil War back then because it freed the slaves (and my great grandfather fought in it and lost a leg doing so). There are no such people left on the national stage; that whole party has become so polarized as to be not recognizable. When I was growing up I sometimes heard however prejudicial remarks, slurs, made about Italians, Jews, Irish and a few other ethnic groups. But I, and all of my friends, found them laughable, in part because we knew kids who were from those groups and found them like ourselves, in fact were our close friends. However there were two other groups that were "hated", because we did not know any: blacks and to a much lesser extent, gays (lesser because homosexuality was just about totally buried until the mid 70s). To my mother's great credit, she took me to see Martin Luther King when I was a boy of 8 or 9 when he was at Boston University, while still getting his doctorate. This was before he had even met Coretta Scott King who was about to start studying at the New England Conservatory across town. My mother was a BU grad and proud of the school and had heard him speak and thought I should too. So I went, grudgingly -- why did I have to go hear some guy talk and give up a Saturday afternoon? I cannot remember what he said, but I was impressed I recall by the cadences of his speaking, how his sentences and paragraphs had a sort of rumble of their own, something I had never heard in the Unitarian preachers I was kin to. Strange, but memorable. But why did she do this? He was an oddity, a black person where there were absolutely none in our neighborhood or string of acquaintances. Sure there were blacks in Boston, lots of them, and I saw them from time to time, but seldom as laudatory figures, usually as shadowy and apart and suspicious. She did it so I would not subscribe to the intolerance of racism. I was impressed by King, but even happier that it was over and my precious Saturdays could return to play and going to the movies.
 
But consider from this anecdote how much America has changed: we are now at the point where we are quite possibly going to elect a black man as president. Maybe we will and maybe we won't, but consider that difference in social mores from the 1940s and 50s!
 
**For anyone who had never done it, swimming nude is better than swimming with a suit, CFNM issues aside. It feels a lot more free and your body seems to go through the water with less resistance. There is not this wet, heavy weight around your midsection.
« Last Edit: Sep 22nd, 2008, 12:07pm by Allan_C. » IP Logged
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #24 on: Sep 22nd, 2008, 3:11pm »
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I perfectly understand what you said in your post, I am younger than you but enough old to have seen the great changement in the society and the way people are living and thinking in the mid sixties, it was quite the same in France on many points.
 
I am myself convinced that the young boys were swimming naked in most of the schools of the United States after the war and certainly during the 50s and the 60s, it was not the case in France but it could have been because the modesty of boys was not an issue.
 
I believe also that there were some young or middle-age or old female teachers for the lesson swimmings, particularly during and after the war but also during the following years until the rules for the boys had changed.
 
I am convinced there was nothing sexual in that situation and that everybody thought it was normal.
 
I am less convinced about boys of 16, 17, or 18 age, I am sure that they were also told to swimm naked but I am more skeptical about the female gender of their gym swimming teacher but it might have been possible sometimes.
I remember also that boys of that age at schools  had no rights at that time and  they were still treated as teenagers who have to obey to adults without question, and most of them were certainly less mature than now except for those who were still working.  So it may be possible, I don't know?
 
In the debate on the forum "education" , I find that people are not asking the good question : it is not why a girl in a high school had tried to spy her classmates  by a hole in a wall of an equipement room for sports from whom she could see the pool where the boys were swimming in the nude for their swimming  lesson in the 50s or the 60s or if she was right to have done that by curiosity and to relate it now she is a woman who had not  forgetten its curiosity of that time.
 
It is why the female gym teacher of the girl who had surprised her while looking at the naked boys had not told her to stop or had not threaten her to punish her if she was continuing to spy.
Instead of that, she had told her nothing,  she had not forbidden her to continue to spy the boys, just smiled, and left her continue as if it was normal.
 
I am a little shocked by this behaviour because even if it was obviously not a big deal for her who was a woman to see boys of a high school in the nude, it was not fair to leave a female classmate of the  boys look at them. I could not understand that , particularly at a time where the girls were so prude and modest.
 
It was not very important in fact if the boys had not known that a girl could see them while swimming nude but the teacher did not have  the good reaction at that time.  
 
I am sure that if  the parents of the girl would have known  that, they would have not agreed.  
 
 
 
« Last Edit: Sep 23rd, 2008, 3:57am by easter_man_10 » IP Logged
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #25 on: Sep 22nd, 2008, 3:18pm »
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on Apr 28th, 2008, 1:26pm, Allan_C. wrote:
Do a search on my name for more details. (I  don't mean to be impolite, but I have posted this about 3 or 4 times now, and I am tired of doing it.) I was between 6 or 7 and 12, 13. One woman was the mother of a boy I knew but not in the class. The other was younger, in her twenties, and wore a yellow bathing suit.

 
I believe you, Allan. The problem with this wide disbelief is that people are applying today's standards/viewpoint of nudity (i.e. insecurity: many people don't ever shower in community-style showers in same sex lockerrooms; immorality: nudity equals sex only, etc.) to the past, where male nudity in group settings were more common and more confident. Since they didn't equate sex with nudity, for the most part, I can see situations where women would see men nude on occasion and not feel threaten or immoral about it.  
 
Until people see the bigger picture, or at least have more of an open mind to the possibility, this debate will continue.  
 
P.S. What type of proof is everyone looking for? Pictures? Front page article in the New York Times? A court documented lawsuit? Well how about reading a sincere post from a longtime member of VSFW and believing it.
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #26 on: Sep 22nd, 2008, 8:21pm »
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I offer a brief statement regarding any female looking at any nude male. It IS sexual, in that she is satisfying her female curiosity, as to what he looks like. She may not be on the verge of orgasm, but a sexual interest is always there, as it is when a guy regards a girl's breasts or best part.
Beyond the "taking in" of the opposite member, the sexual components of said member are still nice to look at, even after she/he learns what the guy/girl looks like.
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #27 on: Sep 22nd, 2008, 9:30pm »
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I offer to re-state: Since they didn't equate sex with nudity, FOR THE MOST PART, I can see situations where women would see men nude on occasion and not feel threaten or immoral about it.  
 
FOR THE MOST PART is a clause in the sentence that means: Yes, there was/is the potential for women to look at nude men for sexual reasons including curiosity.  
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #28 on: Sep 23rd, 2008, 3:52am »
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well, if you have the time to read all the posts  on the forum "education " about that subject "nude boys gym, swimm class", you will notice that most of them consider it was true that boys were swimming in the nude in the 50s and the 60s in swimming pools of schools or in the YMCA pools.
 
There were anyway a lot of witnesses of men who had known this situation when they were young and did not complain about it.
 
The only men who doubted of that are young men who had not known that time.
 
What is discussing violently on the forum is not that fact but  the behaviour and the comments of some women.
 
I presume that some women adress their comments merely to push men because they are in favor of the double standard for  boys in school, they think it was good that boys were forced to swimm naked at that time and that it will be better if the same rule was still applied, and also that boys need to be treated differently of girls in many occasions.
 
For them, it was normal if boys were spanking in front of their classmates by a female teacher with their brief pulled down until their ankles, and that the girls were never punished like that, and they are objecting that it is not the case now in schools.
 
They also write that it was good for boys to be naked because they needed to be disciplined, more than girls, and that when a boy was naked he was more obedient, more quiet, he listened more to teachers orders. So they said it was a good rule for education of young men.
 
An other assertion is that it was normal female teachers, female clerks, nurses, female pricipal of the school, or otherwomen could see the boys naked in the locker room or in the pool, because as it was a little humiliating for the boys ( I am not sure it was the case because they are a great number to tell they liked it and they did not think it was degrading, they were used to  have group showers  too and it was a time where a boy did not question about orders of adults?) , they were less arrogant and rowdy. They deny to boys the right to some privacy and consider their modesty must not be respected at all.  
 
It is about all these assertions that the forum is following since a long time.
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #29 on: Sep 23rd, 2008, 6:45pm »
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I must emphasize that, while in Catholic Grade School. I NEVER saw a sister "de-pants" a boy, prior to spanking him. Neither did I see, or hear of the other type of abuse: priests sexually abusing girls or boys, or nuns similarly abusing boys or girls. We all know that it happened, but mercifully, not in my school. To this day, I haven't heard anything to the contrary.
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #30 on: Sep 23rd, 2008, 6:53pm »
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on Sep 23rd, 2008, 6:45pm, SingleDonald wrote:
I must emphasize that, while in Catholic Grade School. I NEVER saw a sister "de-pants" a boy, prior to spanking him. Neither did I see, or hear of the other type of abuse: priests sexually abusing girls or boys, or nuns similarly abusing boys or girls. We all know that it happened, but mercifully, not in my school. To this day, I haven't heard anything to the contrary.

 
As an aside, I'm not a Catholic but I seriously doubt as many of the priesthood indulged in such stuff as the media has tried to make people think.
I'm sure most of them take their position seriously and try to do their job as best they can.
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #31 on: Sep 24th, 2008, 12:01pm »
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Interesting, though slightly confusing thread, guys. How difficult can it be to establish what was the policy of the YMCA at the time in question? Just asking - I wouldn't know myself, but I assume there are records available that would establish this quite firmly. After having read through the thread the other night, I had a chat with my uncle - who was born right at the end of WWII. What he said was that he frequently swam at his local Y in the fifities and sixties, but never in the nude. There were no female life guards or attendants or staff members of any kind. That's just one Y, though - in Boston, to be precise. I specifically asked him if he ever swam in the nude at the Y - to which he replied that he never did. All the boys and men wore swimming trunks. However, he did recall that during swimming practice in school the boys DID swim nude: That was the standard all the way up to high school (at which point he ceased to have swimming classes at all), he said. On asking him whether there were any females present during such classes, he firmly denied it. In fact he said that would've been entirely unthinkable. Not even the first graders had female instructors in swimming class, he said. Well, like I said, that's just one man's statement. I suppose the policy may have varied from region to region. I don't want to pick a fight with anyone, just relating what my uncle had to say as I thought it relevant in this context.
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #32 on: Sep 24th, 2008, 3:28pm »
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thank you for this witness about the policy of schools and YMCA in the distict or town for swimming lessons where your uncle was living.
 
I think like you that there might be some differences between the disticts and the schools.
 
I have read a lot of messages, so I think that at least, a lot of schools, may be not all, had rules about swimming lessons naked for boys.  For the presence of  female teachers, I presume it was certainly uncommon, it is only credible that it could happen that a few were substitute teachers but I am not sure.
 
For the girls who were peeking at the boys by some way without being seen and caught, I presume that it could have also happened sometimes but not often because girls were learned to be modest and not curious about boys in the nude. It was an other time than today.  
 
I think also that even if some boys were uncomfortable while swimming naked, they would have not dared to tell it to teachers or parents because they knew that they had no rights at that time and they used to do what they were told to do by adults without complaining. Most of the old men who give their witness about that time said : it was like that,  Idid not thought it might be different!
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #33 on: Sep 25th, 2008, 4:35am »
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That's very true: What seems like outlandish and even reprehensible to us today might have been perfectly natural back in the days. Swimming nude in school might seem like far-fetched idea to someone like me - born as I am in the 70s - but it no doubt happened. It seems the attitude towards male nudity up until a certain age was of such a nature that it would allow such practices to exist - strange as they seem to me. It is, however, my general impression (having both talked some more with my uncle and done some net searching) that the nudity in question was a purely male/male thing: Being nude around other males was no big deal - even in school - whereas having a FEMALE present was a whole other cup of tea. According to my uncle, being seen in the nude by a woman, as a boy/young man, was every bit as embarrassing/taboo-ish as it was for me growing up.  
 
I did some research on the YMCA. Not as easy as I thought to come up with anything definite, but a couple of points may be mentioned:
 
By the end of WWII 62% of all Y's in the US admitted women. One must assume the phenomenon of naked swimming never took place in organized forms in coed Y's. I don't know precisely when ALL Y's had gone coed, but I suppose it couldn't have lasted all that long after 1945.
 
Female lifeguards, both at the Y and elsewhere, seem to have been a great rarity in America up until - historically speaking - quite recently. In general female lifeguards didn't become a regular sight at pools and beaches until a good bit into the 1980s. The first formally certified lifeguard on the beaches of Hawaii, for example, didn't appear until 1977 - and she was the very first.
 
None of this proves a damn thing, of course. There are exceptions to every rule - and some of the stories referred to in this thread may have been precisely exceptional. That doesn't make them impossible.
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #34 on: Sep 25th, 2008, 5:21am »
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your comments seems wise, but I think you are a little wrong about the embarrassment of boys of that time to be naked in front of women if they were adults!
 
I have read a lot of posts about this subject and most of the posters seemed to be comfortable being naked even in front of a female gym teacher or an other woman  adult,  
 it was certainly not like  today because an adult woman was identified as a maternal person, of course, it was different with  girls classmates and I don't believe like you that there was co-ed lessons with boys in the nude and girls in swimm suits or it was very, very exceptional. I don't believe the parents of both, the boys and the girls would have agreed with co-ed lessons of that kind.
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #35 on: Sep 25th, 2008, 6:41am »
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Your point is valid, certainly. As long as they really weren't embarrassed by it. The thing which doesn't ring quite right to me, is when people make statements of this kind: "Yes, sure, it was embarassing and humiliating to be seen naked by a woman, but it was so common back then that nobody gave it any thought." There's enough of that stuff in the accounts above - and in my opinion it can only be called a contradiction in terms: If the practice was so widespread that no one gave it a second thought, it doesn't follow that anyone should feel embarrassed and even humiliated by it. And the latter IS implied in several of the accounts mentioned.
 
PS How common were female gym teachers and swimming instructors FOR BOYS in the 50s? My uncle never had a woman teaching either class, and he says he doubts very much that ever happened. There were female gym teachers, of course, but they taught girls, not boys. Again, I do NOT want to accuse anyone of anything here, but I must say the idea of a woman teaching swim class to nude boys in America strikes me as very odd - to say the least.
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #36 on: Sep 25th, 2008, 8:02am »
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There they go again.
Nobody took their clothes off before 1980 and conditions were always the same as under today's feminist-induced prudishness.
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #37 on: Sep 25th, 2008, 10:49am »
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Lazarus:
 
Quote:
Female lifeguards, both at the Y and elsewhere, seem to have been a great rarity in America up until - historically speaking - quite recently. In general female lifeguards didn't become a regular sight at pools and beaches until a good bit into the 1980s.

 
Sorry, but that is quite untrue. Female lifeguards were common during the 1940s, 50s and 60s. As I have said in other posts, I think this may have started with the shortage of men during WW2. But whatever the cause, women lifeguards were almost as common as men when I was growing up. I particularly remember nothing but female lifeguards at a municipal swimming beach at a pond in Norwood, MA during the early 1950s.  I can even remember my mother talking to them, because she had been one herself when she was younger.  There are other mistakes in your posts, but, frankly,  I am tired of constantly rebutting non-believers. I stand on what I have written as 100% true. But you can believe what you want, obviously.
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #38 on: Sep 25th, 2008, 10:53am »
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Right, firstly one of my main points above was precisely that mores and norms were different back then, thus allowing for a phenomenon like nude swim classes for boys. I also stated clearly enough that my own uncle had confirmed that he himself had experienced such classes. So it should be pretty obvious that I don't believe nobody took their clothes off before 1980.
 
Secondly, to Allan_C: I don't know what "common" refers to in this context. The information I've been able to gather on-line indicates that female lifeguards were anything but common in the first decades after WWII. But, by all means, my sources could be mistaken. Plus, it could be these sources define the term "lifeguard" in a very restricted sense. I won't argue about that, though. I wasn't around to see for myself, so if you maintain they were common, I'll gladly take your word for it.
 
Thirdly, the only thing I really doubt here is the presence of female supervisors/instructors in formal, state-approved swim classes for boys as old as 13 years of age. My uncle, who belonged to that very age group in the 1950s, says he can't believe that ever took place. That single instances, NOT necessarily in line with official policies, of such or similar nature may have taken place is a different matter. Although I can't imagine what circumstances would have made it necessary to have women teach nude 13 year old boys to swim. The way I see it, the mere fact of a different mentality towards male nudity and/or puberty doesn't strike me as a sufficient explanation for such a practice. All sources I've come across (which aren't some guy in a chat room) clearly indicate that the practice was that men taught boys and women taught girls when it came to gym- and swim classes.
 
Fourthly, I accept that different attitudes and mores may have caused boys and young adults in the 50s to be less embarrassed by being observed naked by female figures of authority than the case is today. But, to reiterate my point above: If there was no reason for embarrassment - the phenomenon being so common that nobody cared - I find it strange that many of the accounts we're talking about here hint at precisely such an embarrassment. The latter is very functional in a CFNM fantasy setting, but it doesn't fit the historical picture which the account itself presupposes.
 
Fifthly, I don't want to offend any "old-timers" by coming across as a know-it-all smartass punk: I wasn't even thought of when these events supposedly took place, and I am more than willing to grant that all of the above MAY have happened. I'm just not convinced, that's all. I think, when you give an account of something which to younger ears sounds so far-out, you must be prepared for a little skepticism.
 
Humbly yours,
 
lazarus
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #39 on: Sep 25th, 2008, 11:46am »
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Will attempt to make a contribution here. That sight sure has a lot of post and to my thinking goes off the deep end at times. Seems a lot of people are into humiliation, double standards for male/female, and government or institution forced nudity as well as females viewing nude males without asking permission. Everyone has their own interest but they should get over it and go on with life. Boys and girls will always be treated differently although some females will insist on having the good perks as males but then reverting to being female when it suits them.  
 As for the government and institutions forcing nudity at times, so what else is new? I would imagine if you are a prisoner, you are under there control and the guards get a kick out of humiliating others. Just for example the female guards in IRAK that was news awhile back. As for women looking at males, why not? Something different other than what happens in everyday life. Get use to it!
  Had the pleasure to attend a somewhat family reunion in VA. at one of my sister in laws, on a lake last JULY 4. Weather was not that good but we managed to enjoy the water and outdoors. My son showed up with his family, good thing as he and I were the only adults males there. The rest coming and going were females, ages all over the map. SAT. afternoon 2 boys no older than maby 8, grand nepheus or great cousins Huh, spent the whole afternoon nude playing in the water or running on shore with other youngsters. My grandson was also nude, but I cant count him as he is less than 4, not an infant but still to young to be considered a young boy. All afternoon long, no one was bothered and did not give it a second thought. Fact was only brought up occasionally as my sister in law, there grandmother, would warn them about getting to close to the fire and burn their THINGIES, or NUDIE BUNS. We were all family, close or a bit distance, maby that had something to do with no one being offended, dont know, was not discussed. And as it has always been, the girls froliking were clothed. There is that double standard again for those interested!  
  My observation is that a group of females never are concerned about male nudity as long as it is casual and in a fun setting. It was impossible for the young girls not to notice the boys but they acted just as if the boys were clothed, playing and splashing. Could be it was not the first time. Both the boys mothers were there so it was not a female conspiracy and at no time did the boys act the least bit humillated or self concious.  
 I think people try to make to much out of a normal happening.   LEO C  Almost forgot, RICK, thank you for transfering my recollection concerning CONNIE over to YELLOW FEVER.  
  Also while I am here, the comment about not swimming nude at the BOSTON Y surprised me. I was not a Y regular but when I attended in N.J. we all swam nude and only on occasions would there be females around. They did not have to peek, they sat in the bleachers or stood at the door.
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #40 on: Sep 25th, 2008, 8:16pm »
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on Sep 25th, 2008, 10:49am, Allan_C. wrote:
Lazarus:
 
 
Sorry, but that is quite untrue. Female lifeguards were common during the 1940s, 50s and 60s. As I have said in other posts, I think this may have started with the shortage of men during WW2. But whatever the cause, women lifeguards were almost as common as men when I was growing up. I particularly remember nothing but female lifeguards at a municipal swimming beach at a pond in Norwood, MA during the early 1950s.  I can even remember my mother talking to them, because she had been one herself when she was younger.  There are other mistakes in your posts, but, frankly,  I am tired of constantly rebutting non-believers. I stand on what I have written as 100% true. But you can believe what you want, obviously.

 
The belief there were no female lifeguards is the outcome of feminist propaganda that no women had jobs and they were all shrinking housewives until about 1970.
My mother and grandmother worked as far back as I could remember. I remember women working in auto parts stores and the like in the 50s if not the late 40s.
The damage to truth has been done and I mentioned the culprits.
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #41 on: Sep 26th, 2008, 5:56am »
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 I would to give some comments about The   last post of "Lazarus" :  
 
- I agree with the idea that it is not very credible that there was some female gym teachers for gym lessons in school at that time when schools were generally not co-ed ( in France, we had never female gym teachers in middle and high schools for boys in the fifties and sixties, it was only today that it occured because all the schools are co-ed and the female teachers are more numberous than the male teachers) but it is not what some posters said ,  they told of swimming lessons, not gym lessons, and what they said is that threre was some female teachers for swimming lessons  in the YMCA swimming pools, which is something I presume right at least for the younger boys under 12 age ( the fact that the boys were swimming naked was certainly not taken into account by the YMCA when they decided to hire a woman, may be they thought it was better  to hire a person with maternal manners than a tough man to learn swimming to young boys under 12 age), and also that it might have occured that female were hired as substitude teachers in schools when necessary because of temporaly absence of a male teacher for  different reasons and certainly without taking into account the age of the boys.
 
You are right to say that male gym teachers taught to boys and female gym teachers tought to girls but we are talking of swimming lessons by instructors, not necessary the gym teachers, or by substitute teachers, not permanent teachers hired for all the year by a school for boys. I think it was credible!
 
Why were applied these rules which seems so odd to people who were not submitted to respect them? because I think that the modesty of the boys was not an issue at that time, nobody thought it was bad for a boy to be naked in front of his classmates of the same gender or adults of any gender if it was necessary.  
 
 If boys were reluctant to be naked together, it was not understood by adults who thought that these boys were too shy, too modest and had to tough to become real men.
You could think what you want about that way of education of boys, you could not understand because you are too young to have known that time but it was true.
 
And if you believe that a boy who was reluctant to swimm naked, not a very young, but a teenager of 14 or 16 age, could have complained and  refused to swimm like that, you are naive, because at that time, a boy had not the rights he had now, he was really used to do what adults told him to do, and he knew that he had no choice, it is obvious that he could not complain to the principal of the school who had decided to apply theses rules, no more to the teachers who were responsible for their respect, and no more,  except may be in a few cases, to his parents who had laughed  and teased him for his excessive modesty. I am sure his father would have told him " come'on boy, it is not important, you got troubles if you refused to swimm naked, nobody is interested by your bare ass" and I doubted his mother feeled more concerned.
Don't forget that boys under 18 age were always treated as lads if they were not still working in factories.
 
I was in middle school and high school in the last fifties and the fisrt midlle sixties. As it was in France, we had never to swimm naked in schools, but I am sure that if such rules as those applied in the United States had been decided by some schools or some administrative authorities in charge of health or education, we had been forced to respect these rules. I swear that I was shy and modest and not comfortable at all when I was in the nude, but I new perfectly that in that case, I would have  no choice than to  obey at these new rules.
 
The gym teachers used to kick our ass when we were talking too much during a class, or if we loose too much time to undress, or if we were too rowdy, or they gave us a slap on the back of the head or on the buttocks, it was generally  not strong, rather a familiar movement, but it could be really stronger if one boy was too much rebellious.
We did not like that as we thought that we were too older when we had more than 14 age to be treated  like that but we knew it was useless to complain.  
It would not be  tolerated by the boys in schools today, nor may be by their parents.  
 
-  You argue about the claim which seems to you a contradiction that in the same time, some postmen told they were a little embarrassed by being  naked or at least observed nakek by females figures of authority and  that they told also that nobody cared  such situations because they were too  common.
 
It seems to me that there is not a real contradiction.
I give you an example that I took in the french life of that time
There was still a compulsory military service, everybody knew that it was universal.  
At 18 age until 1967, all the young men had to report in front of the draft board commission which was composed of a dozen of members, only two doctors,  and the others were representatives of the town or the adminitrative authorities dressed in civil clothes and  also reprentatives of the military authorities dressed in militarian clothes. Everybody knew how this exam was performed : the young men by group of 20 or sometimes more were instructed to enter in a large room of exam when their name was called, and then to undress completely, then to line up naked, and to wait their turn fot the exam, then to come in front of the draft board, to stand face for a visual exam from head to toe, then on each sides, then to turn around to be back for an exam of their backsides, to walk a little, to squat and to climb on a scale and so on, it could depend on the draftee but the exam was most of the time like that. I don't give you more details.
 
Was this exam pleasant for the young men? no of course, it was embarrassing, even humiliating, because they were naked in front of a lot of people, not only other guys of the same age, but also some sergeants who were supervising them in the room, and above all by the dozen members of the commission who were mostly not medical person.
 
What was the opinion of  the family ? they knew it was compulsory and  they thought that a young man had to undergone this exam, as soon as he reached 18 age, they knew they would soon receive a letter at home to summon him and it was all!  
 
If a boy had complained to his father, or his mother, they had answered him " you could not avoid to report for draft, we did not want to have troubles, it did not last a long time, you would have forgotten that day very quiclky ( which was not true in fact for most of the guys!) and the father could add "I had undergone this exam before you, don't be stupid"
 
So it was a well known situation for young men,  they have been told about that exam by their father or older brothers or uncles or classmates as soon as they were 14 age in fact. They were expected to be summoned at 18 age.
 
I was told after by female friends that they knew also when they were young girls in schools that the  young  men had to undergo such an exam, they did not knew exactly the way the exam was performed but they knew enough to think it was awful.
This physical exam seemed to her even more dreadful than to us,  when they talked about it, they were a little chuckling or giggling, and  they thought that  they never had been able to be naked like that in front of a lot of persons because  it was too much humiliating for a girl, but in the same time, they thought that it was normal for a young boy because he was in their idea not so modest as a young girl.  
 
Generally, they never talked of that exam at home with their family except those who had an older brother or a cousin or a neighbour young man of that age if  the two families were talking about that exam when he received his summon to report for draft.
 
 Most of the draftees feeled very apprehensive before and thought it was really embarrassing but they knew there was nothing to do to avoid it and that it was a common part of life.  They were convinced it was necessary to undergo this exam and did not thought it was anormal to be naked in front of non medical persons ( nobody thought it was anormal at that time because it was the rule!), just embarrassing. So they did not complain nor protest.
 
There was not a contradiction in these two feelings.
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #42 on: Sep 26th, 2008, 6:05am »
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Yes, of course. We all know how feminist propaganda has entirely distorted history as we, the unfortunates born after the golden years of nude swimming and other forms of healthy male bonding, know it. It's a massive conspiracy, you know. But you have to hand it to 'em: It must have been a helluva job to successfully wipe out all traces of the myriads of women who worked as car mechanics, lifeguards, professional boxers, lumberjacks, senators, pilots and - last but not least - swim instructors for boys. The latter, of course, being the most popular career choice for strapping young ladies up until the horrid hippies started to emerge in the mid sixties. And to think that all this is now buried under a vast mountain of burned bras and copies of  "Le Deuxième Sexe". Makes you wanna hide in mommy's lap and have a good cry, don't it?
 
EDIT: easter_man: That rant was not directed at you - you just posted on top of me, that's all. I agree with much of what you say. Your point about being embarrassed yet unable to escape what was institutional at the time, is certainly a thing to consider: Frankly, I didn't think in those terms, so thanks for pointing this out. But I have to say, or repeat, that I have never for a second questioned that the standards for when and where a boy was expected to be naked, was very different in 1950 than it is today. What I find difficult to believe is that boys in their teens had to swim naked under the supervision of female instructors. That this may have occured in the case of little kids is possible, I suppose. For kids to be naked in all sorts of circumstances, supervised by adults of both genders, is no big deal today either. I remember having physicals myself as a kid, attended by both female doctors and nurses, and I didn't find those awkward or embarrassing at all. But I was just a kid - and there's a hell of a difference between the mindset of a kid and that of an adolescent boy. There is also a pretty big difference, for a young man (at least a heterosexual man), between being nude around fellow males and being nude in front of women. You mention the French draft in your post and the presence of non-medical personnel - but these persons weren't women, were they? That the mores were different regarding male/male nudity in the past doesn't necessarily have any bearing on the question of male nudity in front of members of the opposite sex.
 
I have tried pretty hard to dig up something, anything, which could verify the claims that naked adolescent boys were supervised, in a formal setting, by female instructors back in the 50s - but I don't come up with anything. The only remotely relevant information that keeps coming up is that the practice of naked swimming at the YMCA (which I have never doubted in itself) ceased to exist when females were allowed in the Y's. Am I to believe that female instructors were allowed by that organization before regular girls and women were allowed to swim in its pools? If so, I'll say that is a very strange historical fact.
 
Nothing, absolutely nothing, indicates that female lifeguards and/or instructors were ever formally appointed to supervise nude swim classes for adolescent boys. Can you then blame me for being a little skeptical? Here's what someone should do: Get in touch with the YMCA and ask them if such a practice ever existed.  
 
They'll probably deny it, though. Damn feminists have probably gotten to them too.
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #43 on: Sep 26th, 2008, 7:19am »
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just two comments to your post:  
you are right that  when I told of the draft commission board in France, I forget to tell the dozen members were men, at least it was the most common situation ( I had read on newspapers or books that it could occured that one or two women were members if they were the representatives of the town but it seems it was exceptional and I have not known myself this situation). But I wanted to give you this example for showing you there is not a contradiction between the fact we could be embarrassed and at the same time thinking it was like that and we should do with it!  
 
For the presence of female instructors, I am skeptical as you for the YMCA hiring female teachers for swimming lessons to teenagers, I think it was rather for young boys, but I am less skeptical as you about the presence for a temporaly time of a female teacher in some schools, even for teenagers if a susbtitute was necessary.
I am quite sure that the authorities of the school did not think it was bad at that time, they did not matter about the issue if the rules were to swimm naked for boys, what was the issue? was certainly their reaction if you had questioned them .
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #44 on: Sep 26th, 2008, 7:43am »
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My personal experiences saw no naked boys/clothed women/girls situations, while growing up in the Queens, & Long Island, N.Y. areas.
Also, I, and most boys would have resisted being forced to undress in front of women/girls.
That being said, I do accept Allan_C's recollections as true, for his part of Massachusettes. At least the boys were willing to experience CFNM; it wasn't forced on them.
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #45 on: Sep 26th, 2008, 8:12am »
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...but if the YMCA would be reluctant to hire a female instructor for teenagers, why would that be different for the schools? I mean, the reason why anyone, at any time, would hesitate to let a woman supervise nude teenagers would have been that this situation was somehow inappropriate, right? If, on the other hand, the general view at the time was that teenage boys had no more right to privacy vis-a-vis a female teacher/instructor than the yonger kids did - then this would surely apply to the YMCA as well as to the schools?  
 
To return to my uncle, who - as stated above - grew up in this period, there was no doubt a very different view back then regarding an issue like nudity in institutional settings (swimming pools, schools, etc.), but he emphasized that there was nevertheless a clear boundary between such nudity in all-male situation and a situation where females were present. For him the idea, for example, of a female swimming instructor in a boy's class was simply not heard of. Of course, like I've said before, these things could have varied regionally.
 
Well, I don't think this is going anywhere. Let me sum up my point of view in conclusion: The issue here, as I see it, is simply whether a certain practice took place or not. The practice is not described as a singular, exceptional event, but rather as something institutionalized - something approved of by the authorities, if you like. The issue is NOT whether things were different before. Of course they were, we all know that. If female instructors were allowed to supervise naked teenage boys in an institutionalized, formal setting, then this was obviously due to a set of cultural-moral principles which no longer applies today. But merely to point out that such a set of principles existed doesn't say anything about the concrete, particular practice we're talking about here: That the REASON for this alleged practice was - simply put - that things were different before, doesn't prove that the practice took place.  
 
I think - just my opinion, I'm no expert on the history of either the YMCA or American educational institutions - that if what we're talking about here was a common, legalized practice, it would be possible to come across some form of documentation that it really happened. Hopefully somone will do just that. I'm not getting a kick out of playing the disbeliever. But I think people should expect some skepticism when they make a claim of this kind without backing it up with anything. The accounts in question aren't just recollections of personal, singular experiences: They're accounts of an alleged, official policy. You'd expect such accounts to be verifiable. So far they've proved anything but.
 
Peace out,  
 
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #46 on: Sep 26th, 2008, 12:48pm »
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Quote:
I'm not getting a kick out of playing the disbeliever. But I think people should expect some skepticism when they make a claim of this kind without backing it up with anything. The accounts in question aren't just recollections of personal, singular experiences: They're accounts of an alleged, official policy. You'd expect such accounts to be verifiable. So far they've proved anything but.

 
OK, Lazurus, you asked for it. You just won't leave this alone, so I won't either.
 
The claims you dispute have been made by several people on this board, not just me, both directly and indirectly, and on other boards as well. You are way out of your depth when you start talking about "alleged official policies" and the Ys of the 1940s and early 50s. They were anything but well-organized and "official". Most were neighborhood affairs, largely adjuncts to schools and, like schools of the day, mainly run by women, some of them volunteers because their own kids used them. That was certainly the case with most of the Y's I used. Your uncle is plain wrong if he disputes, as you claim in one of your posts, that there was nude swimming at the Boston Y (the main one on Huntington Ave, the type of Y big enough to rent rooms for overnight stays...there were and still are about 15 or 20 Y's of all types in the Boston area). I swam there nude, and in many other Y's nude. In the course of my swimming at various Y's I would estimate the proportions of lifeguard/instructors that I recall, in decreasing amounts, were:  adult or teen males in suits, adult or teen males nude, adult or teen females in suits. I have sworn that I can remember two of the latter specifically and clearly in my memory and that is the case. I believe there were more but I cannot recall that far back exactly. I can recall several adult males swimming nude with us and showering as well -- I recall in part because I thought it odd and remember being astonished at how hairy one guy was. Your uncle may not have heard of a suited female instructor/lifeguard in a boys class, but that is your uncle's shortcoming, not mine. Your attempts to insinuate that I or others who have reported the same thing are wrong based on your "uncle's" memories, when you were not even alive for another three decades, is as deplorable as it is silly. I can easily offer this as a true rejoinder. Before my mother passed away, I asked her about that swimming I did at the Y and the fact that we boys were nude and sometimes the instructors were clothed women. Why did that happen I asked? She replied that it was just the way it was back then, and sometimes there were no men who were available or wanted the job. (I asked her this because my curiosity was peaked by a CFNM board of the late 1990s.)  So now it is my mother against your uncle. Now what are you going to do?
 
And to broaden the discussion beyond YMCA's. I was a junior counselor when I was 15 at a place called Camp Wonderland in Sharon, MA on Lake Massapoag. It was for "underprivileged" kids, poor boys, mainly black from the inner city and was run by the Salvation Army. The Sallies are well known for their charitable work, but they are also a religion. It is a "holy roller" type religion with loud "witnessing" and even trumpet playing by worshipers during services. I know because one of the requirements of attending the camp (free for the kids, slightly paid for the counselors) was to attend these services. I am not a Sally (I'm a Unitarian, as far from the Sallies as you can be) but I had to attend them anyway. They are a remarkable religion, I decided when I was there -- an odd but admirable mix of pure charity and emotional churchifying. And they are also very conservative socially and puritanical sexually. (Notwithstanding this last fact, elsewhere on this board I told of my first sexual CFNM experience "at the hands" of a daughter of the SA major who was in charge of the camp.) To get to the point -- there were several lifeguards, all women, at this camp.  Being on a lake, one of the main attractions of the camp was swimming. The boys were supposed to bring their own swim suits to camp, but because some were too poor, or forgot, there was a small reserve of extra suits for them to put on. But there were never enough. So often some of the boys went swimming in the pond nude. Boys up to age 11 or 12, usually black. Supervised by clothed girls/women, always white. In broad daylight. In New England in 1956, under the auspices of a puritanical religion that I am sure never showed any "official" policy permitting or cordoning it. Tell that to your "uncle".
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #47 on: Sep 26th, 2008, 7:23pm »
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Hi, Allan. No need to get all that upset, I think. And I don't see why you felt it necessary to put my "uncle" in citation marks like that. Are you saying I need to provide some solid documentation he's real? (See, making a little joke on my own behalf - this ain't life and death matters, sir). I assure you he is and I assure I've only reported what he said to me: In doing so I clearly stated that he's just one man who swam at one Y. Which one of the twenty, I do not know (but I'll ask him) - I don't know Boston myself; my grandparents moved to the west coast in the early sixties. He didn't swim naked and as far as he knew nobody else did - AT THAT particular Y. I don't think it's fair of you to pretend I used my uncle as some kind of ultima ratio: I said from the very beginning that his experience was that of one individual and didn't constitute proof of anything.
 
You say, further, that I wasn't even born at the time - which is what I have said repeatedly myself. I don't pretend to know the complete history of educational and recreational swimming in America. What I did was to spend a few hours trying to find some kind of evidence that this - to me - strange practice actually took place. I wasn't able to find any and was thus skeptical. There may be reasons for this - not least that this practice may have been far less institutionalized than I thought: I may have been guilty of thinking in too modern terms in that respect. What you say above pertaining to this, makes sense - I didn't think of the practice as being as disorganized as you describe it.
 
Others - who like my uncle grew up in the relevant period - have also stated that they don't recall anything like the scenes you describe. So things were obviously done differently in different parts of the country - or in different districts within the same city, for that matter. I did say right from the start that there may have been regional differences - just as I said that I didn't regard the thing itself as an impossibility. I just wanted some proof.
 
I'm truly sorry if you were offended by my posts. Sometimes I can be too cocky or flippant for my own good - and sometimes, I know, I use language which may piss certain people off. You seem like an intelligent and well informed man, and I hereby apologize for any offence you may have taken. I will remind you of what i said, though: This stuff sounds awfully strange to a man of my generation, and I still don't think it should be considered an outrage that I'm skeptical to something which hasn't been backed up by proof. The fact that others of your own generation have stated they don't recall anything like it, doesn't boost one's inclination to believe either.
 
But I won't harp on about the proof. You seem too damn sure, and state your case too well, for me to call you a liar to your face. I don't think you are, allright? So, there - hopefully this will clear the air. On that note I'd like to ask you the following: You say you experienced female guards at 13. Would you say that the period when a male was considered a child (rather than a "young adult", as one says today) stretched longer into his teen years than the case is today? Like I said above: There's a great difference between a six- and a twelve year old when it comes to his attitudes towards females and nudity.  
 
Well, I hope there are no hard feelings -  
 
lazarus
 
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #48 on: Sep 27th, 2008, 12:05pm »
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One tries the best one can to stress the fact that one does NOT consider oneself to be an expert, but seemingly such attempts at showing a bit of caution go unnoticed - so why bother, really. Where's the point in repeating over and over again that one man's point of view doesn't constitute proof af anything, when you end up accused of being an ignorant, illogical cunt anyway? If mere doubt is equalled to smart-alecky pretensions of omniscience, regardless of how this doubt is put forth, perhaps one should just as well start acting like a complete asshole.  
 
EDIT I'll try my best not to, though. So let me just say this: It has to be possible to express doubt or criticism in here without being called an "expert". It seems that either you take off your hat and bow in gratitude or praise - or you're an arrogant ignoramus with no other agenda than trying to discredit honest posters just for kicks. This is a very common view in forums like this, and I'm a little frustrated by it, to tell you the truth. One should allow for a position in between, I think.
 
I may have gone too far in speculating about matters I truly know too little about, but none of this was done with any ill intent. And I really did try to emphasize both the fact that I make no claim to omniscience, and that I didn't exclude the possibility of the account in question being true. I doubted its veracity, but I never declared it untrue. How that makes me an "expert", I don't understand at all.
 
For the old Indian analogy to be effective, the person making the statement must in fact conclude that all indians march. I never said that. I just mentioned that someone I know once saw a marching Indian.
 
Well, well. I've already apologized, and I'll leave it at that. Peace to one and all.
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Re: Girl watches boy's nude swim class
« Reply #49 on: Sep 29th, 2008, 11:39am »
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on Sep 26th, 2008, 8:12am, lazarus wrote:
...but if the YMCA would be reluctant to hire a female instructor for teenagers, why would that be different for the schools? I mean, the reason why anyone, at any time, would hesitate to let a woman supervise nude teenagers would have been that this situation was somehow inappropriate, right? If, on the other hand, the general view at the time was that teenage boys had no more right to privacy vis-a-vis a female teacher/instructor than the yonger kids did - then this would surely apply to the YMCA as well as to the schools? "lazarus

 
I presume that you like to discuss and you are patient, it is a quality.
 
In my post, I did not say that  the schools  hired women teachers, on the opposite, I am thinking that they did not hired women because most of them were not co-ed schools at that time ( may be there was no co-ed school at all?) but I think that when they had to find a teacher to be a substitute to a male teacher for a temporaly time, or for example a term of the year, if they had to take the decision to hire a woman teacher because she was the only teacher available immediately,  they did it without taking in account the modesty of the boys because it was not a real issue for the authorities of schools, but as I said I am not american, may be I am wrong and you are wright.
 
The claim of your uncle is certainly wright but some had different experiences and when he said it was  not credible, I am not sure he is not too confident about his idea of the relations pof the two genders at that time.  
 I find  myself in others forums many posts of men telling they had female substitute teachers when they were teenagers in schools for  their swimming lessons and  these claims seems to be true.  
 
The attitude towards a teenager was not the same as today, boys in their  early teens ( until what age do you use this word?) were certainly not considered as sexual persons.  
 
And as you said :"  If female instructors were allowed to supervise naked teenage boys in an institutionalized, formal setting, then this was obviously due to a set of cultural-moral principles which no longer applies today."  
 
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